• Bannings
    I have read the posts where he did request a ban, twice.Outlander

    In one of those discussions, I asked why he or she did not simply withdraw. The answer was that participation was experienced as a compulsion.

    I get that.
  • A new home for TPF

    How does it not become a form of arguing on the basis of authority?

    Is there a modal logic answer to that question?
  • A new home for TPF

    I object to that idea. I would rather have it be a resource for people who use it to supplement their limitations. Don't we all disagree enough without adding an agent that does not need to explain itself?
  • Compressed Language versus Mentalese
    I just don't understand why one would posit a private sub-symbol that computes and then attaches to a public post-symbol I can see. By mentalese, I would think he would mean the stuff that precedes the sub-symbol, the computation itself, not some strange layer of first symbol to follow a second symbol.Hanover

    I wonder where linguistics, as a science, fits into Pinker's model. Before trying to map a "mental" substratum for the activity, it would be good to have the empirical study of grammar and expression established as a starting place. It is not a settled area of theory.

    That is not the same starting place of Wittgenstein working out that our understanding of meaning is more than naming things we all can recognize alone. Unless, of course, one understood Wittgenstein to be reducing the problem to a set of criteria.
  • A new home for TPF

    Glad to hear the Currently Reading thread will continue.
  • Compressed Language versus Mentalese

    One way to hear the PI §329 statement is that some kinds of internal dialogue demonstrate that the thinking through using language is where thinking would otherwise not happen. It may not be exclusively "private" in origin, but it is nonetheless personal.

    That would make it different from both the dialogue with others or translating a purely individual experience into words.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me

    That is a good observation. Kant had figured that he had nailed down the uses of psychology but the time since then has proven otherwise.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me

    There, again, reference is made to an intuition we do not possess but can imagine as possible. There is an interesting discussion much later in the book where the "object in general" is a valid question even though we cannot answer it:

    In transcendental philosophy, however, there are no questions other than the cosmological ones in regard to which one can rightfully demand a sufficient answer concerning the constitution of the object itself; the philosopher is not allowed to evade them by pleading their impenetrable obscurity, and these questions can have to do only with cosmological ideas. For the object must be given empirically, and the question concerns only its conformity with an idea. If the object is transcendental and thus in itself unknown, e.g., whether the something whose appearance (in ourselves) is thinking (the soul) is in itself a simple being, whether there is a cause of all things taken together that is absolutely necessary, etc., then we should seek an object for our idea, which we can concede to be unknown to us, but not on that account impossible.*

    The footnote:

    * To the question, "What kind of constitution does a transcendental object have?" one cannot indeed give an answer saying what it is, but one can answer that the question itself is nothing, because no object for the question is given. Hence all questions of the transcendental doctrine of the soul are answerable and actually answered; for they have to do with the transcendental subject of all inner appearances, which is not itself an appearance and hence is not given as an object, and regarding which none of the categories (at which the question is really being aimed) encounter conditions of their application. Thus here is a case where the common saying holds, that no answer is an answer, namely that a question about the constitution of this something, which cannot be thought through any determinate predicate because it is posited entirely outside the sphere of objects that can be given to us, is entirely nugatory and empty.
    ibid. A479/ B 507


    I concur with your findings. That is the translation I have been quoting and linking from.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me
    Assuming you haven't ignored the quote of Kant I presented, the noumenon (transcendental object here) is the cause of appearance, phenomenon.Sirius

    Then all my efforts to distinguish the two in the text have been for naught.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me
    Going back to a very old objection. For Kant, the transcendental object is the CAUSE of all appearances & clearly not an appearance.Sirius

    All of the text I quoted clearly rules out the transcendental object being an appearance.

    Where, in the text, do you see the transcendental object being a cause in itself? It seems more like a concept that gives us permission to propose causes even though we know very little.
  • Currently Reading
    Plato revised his government ideas in "Laws"ProtagoranSocratist

    That is one line of interpretation. There are others.

    I will leave it be for now. This place has many discussions concerning this topic.

    Till the next time in another place.
  • Currently Reading


    In your mind, is there a set of stuff that is true and other stuff that is demonstrably false?
  • Currently Reading

    Well, I was not claiming the perspective I presented was the only one to consider. It was only to observe that the City of Words is not put forward in a vacuum.

    The circumstance involving Socrates' death is a central motif of Apology, Crito, Phaedo and even Theaetetus, since the latter ends with Socrates going to court the next day. Plato was telling the stories for his own purposes. There were others who had a different view.

    The attention given to different kinds of regimes in the Republic is very interesting.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me

    I did not mean to provide an opposing argument, only to clarify that I was not trying to avoid the "transcendental" in your comment.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me
    But ya know…realm of noumena. Understanding. Same as the transcendental object. Both concepts thought transcendentally.Mww

    Both may be thought "transcendentally" but are not identical. The point of my looking at the precise way Kant expresses the transcendental object was to question the statement made that the A and B editions were fundamentally different in this regard.

    In both places, the transcendental object is not an appearance but a part of establishing 'objective validity' for representations. It is not called the noumenon because it is part of our process of understanding what is given through intuition of the senses. In making the point, Kant is constantly comparing it to an intuition that we do not have but can think as possible. So, the "object in general" is recognized as:

    Hence to this extent the categories extend further than sensible intuition, since they think objects in general without seeing to the particular manner (of sensibility) in which they might be given. But they do not thereby determine a greater sphere of objects, since one cannot assume that such objects can be given without presupposing that another kind of intuition than the sensible kind is possible, which, however, we are by no means justified in doing.ibid. A254/B309

    Not being able to determine a "greater sphere of objects" undermines saying:

    From this quote, it's clear the ground of our representations, all of phenomena, can't be an object of phenomena. It must be an object in the realm of noumena & it must exist in order for empirical realism to be true.Sirius

    The existence of noumena has not been asserted or denied anywhere in the work. To call it a realm is to ignore:

    The concept of a noumenon is therefore merely a boundary concept, in order to limit the pretension of sensibility, and therefore only of negative use. But it is nevertheless not invented arbitrarily, but is rather connected with the limitation of sensibility, yet without being able to posit anything positive outside of the domain of the latter.ibid. A255/B311

    I am not aware of any place in the Critique where Kant argued differently from this.
  • Currently Reading

    The work as whole deals with looking for an answer to whether justice is merely whatever the powerful say it is. The City of Words is a mirror to the one we live in. In many dialogues, Plato pulls the beards of self-righteous elites. They killed him for that.


    I take your point about anger but there would have been no further dialogue if Glaucon wanted more than the parlor stunt Socrates started with.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me
    From this quote, it's clear the ground of our representations, all of phenomena, can't be an object of phenomena. It must be an object in the realm of noumena & it must exist in order for empirical realism to be true.Sirius

    That remark overlooks the role of the transcendental object in Kant's argument. Here it is how it is presented in A:

    Further, we are now also able to determine our concepts of an object in general more correctly. All representations, as representations, have their object, and can themselves be objects of other representations in turn. Appearances are the only objects that can be given to us immediately, and that in them which is immediately related to the object is called intuition. However, these appearances are not things in themselves, but themselves only representations, which in turn have their object, which therefore cannot be further intuited by us, and that may therefore be called the non-empirical, i.e., transcendental object = X.
    The pure concept of this transcendental object (which in all of our cognitions is really always one and the same = X) is that which in all of our empirical concepts in general can provide relation to an object, i.e., objective reality. Now this concept cannot contain any determinate intuition at all, and therefore concerns nothing but that unity which must be encountered in a manifold of cognition insofar as it stands in relation to an object. This relation, however, is nothing other than the necessary unity of consciousness, thus also of the synthesis of the manifold through a common function of the mind for combining it in one representation.
    Critique of Pure Reason, A109

    The same formulation is used in B, now with the role of categories having been established:

    All our representations are in fact related to some object through the understanding, and, since appearances are nothing but representations, the understanding thus relates them to a something, as the object of sensible intuition: but this something a is to that extent only the transcendental object. This signifies, however a something = X, of which we know nothing at all nor can know anything in general (in accordance with the current constitution of our understanding), but is rather something that can serve only as a correlate of the unity of apperception for the unity of the manifold in sensible intuition, by means of which the understanding unifies that in the concept of an object. This transcendental object cannot even be separated from the sensible data, for then nothing would remain through which it would be thought. It is therefore no object of cognition in itself, but only the representation of appearances under the concept of an object in general, which is determinable through the manifold of those appearances, Just for this reason, then, the categories do not represent any special object given to the understanding alone, but rather serve only to determine the transcendental object (the concept of something in general) through that which is given in sensibility, in order thereby to cognize appearances empirically under concepts of objects.ibid. A250/B305

    Further in the same section, Kant makes a distinction that is missing your account:

    The object to which I relate appearance in general is the transcendental object, i.e., the entirely undetermined thought of something in general. This cannot be called the noumenon, for I do not know anything about what it is in itself, and have no concept of it except merely that of the object of a sensible intuition in general, which is therefore the same for all appearances. I cannot think it through any categories; for these hold of empirical intuition, in order to bring it under a concept of the object in general. To be sure, a pure use of the category is possible/ i.e., without contradiction, but it has no objective validity, since it pertains to no intuition that would thereby acquire unity of the object for the category is a mere function of thinking, through which no object is given to me, but rather only that through which what may be given in intuition is thought.ibid. A253/B308
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me

    Maybe you two should have this argument in a Nietzsche specific conversation.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me

    That paper is narrowly focused on a particular set of issues. The Metaphysics draws sharp differences between the ease with which we can observe kinds as a grouping in a system of classification and what might be an understanding how those species came into being. The many discussions concerning the "actual" in relation to the "potential;" are problems that cut across all enquiries of the nature of beings. The methods of analysis in the biological works are attempts to apply the ideas of causality developed in the Metaphysics to figure how particular beings come into being.

    If you search the site, you will see the issue has consumed much digital ink.
  • The Aestheticization of Evil

    Good points. One of the aspects of "a formerly good person" that is presented in the drama is how a "line of credit" of respectability runs out eventually and ensnares those who were supposed to be the beneficiaries of the crimes.
  • Disproving solipsism

    Please do not be sorry. Being very specific about agreement and disagreement helps me look for what I am trying to find. I was not speaking ironically.

    I figure we do have different views of language. I think there is a benefit in looking for an author's intent before questioning it.
  • A new home for TPF

    Pardon my penchant for analogy.

    If you work in a restaurant, you try to separate stored goods from actual food production. And the idea is central to other means of production. So, I applied a pedestrian truism to a current situation. Not expecting a Pulitzer prize for that observation.
  • Disproving solipsism

    Yes.

    I like the way you carefully qualified the agreement.
  • A new home for TPF

    Now that you are doing it, it seems no brainer to separate the storage room from the grille.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me

    I like that answer because it opens up ancient through to modern iterations without putting a finger on the scale regarding them.
  • Disproving solipsism

    Causal agency is the language of practical reason.

    I guess I am trying to see a flip side to that where Kant says we have an experience of ourselves through intuition but that does not make us a knowable object. We don't "act" through our thinking alone that would make that possible. Kant often uses a thought experiment imagining an "intellectual intuition" we do not have. Maybe there is a kind of solipsism in that 'missing limb' approach.
  • Disproving solipsism
    What do you think Descartes’ solipsism problem was?Mww

    In Meditations, Descartes wonders if all his experiences in the world are merely dreams and illusion. He asks if the people he sees are machines pretending to be human. He does not have the experience of making everything up, so he wonders if there is an evil demon producing the show. The recognition that a producer is needed divides the solipsism into a least two beings. Descartes opts for a good God over an evil demon which leads to a cosmological proof of said being.

    The above is what Kant considers "assuming merely on the basis of faith" in his Preface of the B edition. The cogito ergo sum would seem to undermine this view with the introduction of a rational agency. I read both A and B versions of the paralogisms as a dismantling of the "ergo" part of the sentence. A slice of that pie:

    From all this one sees that rational psychology has its origin in a mere misunderstanding. The unity of consciousness, which grounds the categories, is here taken for an intuition of the subject as an object, and the category of substance is applied to it. But this unity is only the unity of thinking, through which no object is given; and thus the category of substance, which always presupposes a given intuition, cannot be applied to it, and hence this subject cannot be cognized at all.ibid. B420
    (The long footnote at the end of this passage gives a detailed breakdown of his reasoning)

    By these criteria, solipsism is an empty statement. The judgement of what exists is a process I am engaged within but did not design. It is here that Berkeley also loses the ground to declare what is imaginary or not. Humans are in the cognition through experience business. We are not allowed into the engineering room. That is why Kant has all of our experience as active agents relate strictly to the theater of Practical Reason.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me
    Well, it would be quite misguided to think that one gains insight into what the word 'thehousenextdoor' means by reading the original work that gave the world the word, for then one would believe it is exclusively about what a particular house is made of, plus about its appearance.Clarendon

    Are you suggesting that reading the actual book would be misguided?
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me

    That is a good translation. Apostle is also good.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me

    Or read the book itself. If one wants to swim, jump into the pool.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me

    I was not arguing against that idea. It is a received opinion. I figure we cannot know for sure. What the writing talks about is the best indication of its meaning.
  • The term "metaphysics" still confuses me
    For Aristotle, "Physics" is an investigation about "Phusis" or Nature.

    How ever it came to be called "Metaphysics", that book is concerned with "being as being" and whether there could be such an investigation.
  • Disproving solipsism

    I agree that Kant's argument does not directly approach the thesis of solipsism. Kant introduced the goal of his Refutation as:

    The only thing I can really call a supplement, and that only in the way of proof, is what I have said at B 273 in the form of a new refutation of psychological idealism, and a strict proof (the only possible one, I believe) of the objective reality of outer intuition. No matter how innocent idealism may be held to be as regards the essential ends of metaphysics (though in fact it is not so innocent), it always remains a scandal of philosophy and universal human reason that the existence of things outside us (from which we after all get the whole matter for our cognitions, even for our inner sense) should have to be assumed merely on faith, and that if it occurs to anyone to doubt it, we should be unable to answer him with a satisfactory proof.C Pure R, Preface B XXXIX

    It is toward this end Kant figures he has overturned Berkeley and Descartes with one theorem even though they say completely different things:

    The proof that is demanded must therefore establish that we have experience and not merely imagination of outer things, which cannot be accomplished unless one can prove that even our inner experience, undoubted by Descartes, is possible only under the presupposition of outer experience.ibid. B275

    Descartes solved his solipsism problem through a means that Kant rejects. Both Berkeley and Descartes are taking for granted a view of the self that Kant does not.

    Now Kant does say a lot of things about the "self" that involves faith. The Critique of Judgement tries to make sense of that.
  • Disproving solipsism

    For Kant, in his time, the statement that awareness of self required the existence of "exterior" things was his argument against solipsism.
  • Disproving solipsism

    I can deal with that challenge tomorrow. I will quote from the text I have been referring to and link it to other sections of the other Critiques.
  • Disproving solipsism

    Then what will be the difference between our points of view?

    Will you no longer challenge what I have said in the past as you just did?

    I would rather work with that gap than agree to disagree. It is more interesting.
  • Disproving solipsism

    I am not going to say more until we deal with your charges about my agenda.
  • Disproving solipsism
    You, on the other hand, take a bit of text and use it as the basis for what ends up being self reflection. You want every philosopher to be something like a materialist, and you take one word and draw out a materialist outlook.frank

    That is not the case. I have argued extensively against Gerson's interpretation of materialism as a general idea in Plato and subsequent literature. Are you remembering my objections to Cornford's view of the forms as an argument for materialism? Nothing could be further from the case. I see that I have only been a cypher in your mind.

    I don't want Kant to say this or that. Or if I do, it needs to be a way to read what was written. I don't see the world the way he does in many ways. But he deserves to be fairly represented.
  • Disproving solipsism
    I have a much broader outlook.frank