Obviously I disagree.

But I'm not sure that it's an interesting disagreement for myself.

As long as you agree "since the 1980's" then you see what I'm talking about, I think. And what happened before? Just some stories that people like to tell.

No. But I understand that a story on the internet is just a story, yeh? So I won't press the point.


These were victories which were hard fought. To the point of people being shot by Pinkertons etc. The government, in the USA at least, has been mostly anti-labor and pro-capitalist. Even the relatively conservative Foner would confirm this.

But it's ok -- I had to read them books cuz I was taught wrong too. So there's that.

I don't blame you. That's the story I was told too.

I'd just say it's only a story.

If you are a person who must work to live, then the labor movement is for you. Even in this era, with service-sector work being primary in the imperial core.

There is a bloody conflict, but the blood spilt is by the boss -- and the boss spills the blood of the worker.

I believe you'd disbelieve these as metaphorical expressions. And so I feel the need to relate a personal experience: I have met people physically disabled by Starbucks. They qualified, even in this regressive government, for disability. Serving coffee.

If you own a shop, then sure -- this is nonsense. But if you actually have to sell your labor... it aint.

One thing you do need to understand about the American labor movement is that it only existed in the first place due to federal backing, originally by Teddy Roosevelt and then Wilson. In Wilson's case it was in line with his progressive Christianity. — Tate

I am not trying to be aggressive, but I will say that this is wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Labor

The labor movement was inspired by industrialization, as @unenlightened said.


But there is a longer history to it.

Glad to hear it. I make no promises on my rate of reading due to the chaos of life, but I look forward to discussing these texts.

In my view unions are more of a vessel for the employee to face the employer with more weight than just by being individual employees. That hasn't anything to with private property. In fact, many free market libertarians don't have any problem with trade unions... those that aren't mesmerized by the imagination of Ayn Rand. — ssu

Historically the US labor movement has been composed of both radical and bread-and-butter elements. Without the bread-and-butter unionism you can't succeed -- the material conditions of the members are the primary focus of a local, which in terms of US unionism usually just means you have some administration around a contract, and the union is the business which services that contract.

However, without the radical element the labor movement dies -- we see that in the United States as labor bureaucrats pushed out the radical elements in response to anti-communist propaganda. Labor feared being labelled communist and castigated, so they castigated their communist and socialist members to save themselves.


I agree partly with you. Bread and butter issues are the main forces of a union. But, as we see from the decline of the AFL-CIO from the 50's onward, if you kill the heart of the movement you die.

I'd say this isn't lost on the majority of union people. I know that my preferred way of looking at unions is as institutions for working people to obtain power over the economy -- that is, a kind of socialism. I don't have a finger on the pulse anymore so I couldn't say what the beliefs are, but bread-and-butter unionism was the most popular form of unionism in the USA when I was still in the game.

I agree - good catch!

So far what I have heard being left out, and agree with: Akrasia, the needs of others, and now death.

I found this today and it's definitely part of what I'm going to be reading.

https://www.amazon.com/Levinas-Reader-Emmanuel/dp/0631164472


The rest of the list so far: Totality and Infinity, and Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange, which I hadn't made the connection to before but actually is a great story for exploring Totality and Infinity since the main character sort of makes the arc which Levinas is describing in the essay. Also, specifically referencing the book since it includes the crucial 21st chapter, which Kubrick cut out for a nice bit of drama (but totally changing the meaning of the story!)

Progress. I think, thanks to yourself and everyone here, I skipped a few false thoughts.

As always, thanks to everyone who responded.

It's about the only good news I see anymore. The IWW has been pushing for unionization efforts in the service sector since at least the late 90's, and I'm very happy to see these fruits -- many failed efforts are finally starting to pay off.

Always with the flattery, You just can't help yourself — Merkwurdichliebe

I'd call it camaraderie :D -- @180 Proof and I get along well, and who likes to be alone?

If it matters for any reason, it is because: to stand firm on one's moral principles will prevent one from being a hypocrite, a pathetic wretch of a creature, worthy of neither love nor respect. Those people know who they are, regardless if it can ever be known or proven to another. Of course, this only begs the question: is this merely a relativistic opinion, or a universal truth? — Merkwurdichliebe

I think that from the existential situation it's enough to say that it doesn't matter if its relative or universal -- the choice remains. It's because freedom is forced on us by our very existence that we find these questions.

We certainly are odd. Its also why nerdy philosophers invent shit that nobody else understands nor cares about. And I also agree, that its not an edifying view of ethics. To be honest, i'm being lazy here. Compared to arguing for an absolute universal morality (in the Platonic sense), I have been taking the path of least resistance by settling on a more phenomenological perspective of morality (as you indicated). — Merkwurdichliebe

I think even here that Nietzsche could say the same -- let the philosophers have their truth in their academies where they commune with the forms. No one is moved by these thoughts anymore -- objective or subjective, humans desire and do things from desire. No moral law or form could possibly hold sway, except on a small individual basis or, in the case of communities, with the use of violence.

I am still thinking the thoughts, but I got to a point where I've assigned myself some reading - I got an idea for a bit of writing, so thanks for the proddings as always. I felt I owed a response, at least though, so here it is.

If a person's moral reasoning tells him that it is good to be a selfish bastard that gets over on others, then it is the moral thing to do, and nothing can tell against it. — Merkwurdichliebe

The problem you and Moliere are not recognizing in this exchange is that you are reducing morality to selfishness/altruism. But these are only particular perspectives based on moral reasoning. And until we can demonstrate the existence of an universal and absolute moral code, morality as a matter of selfishness/altrusism has ground in nothing but baseless subjectivity. — Merkwurdichliebe

Hrmmm... smells like - Kantianism! :D

To which I'd say: go right ahead. Speak your mind. The abstruse nature of your reasoning will ensure that it never escapes into the wild, and you can have your truth all to yourself. The Kingdom of Ends, because God does not exist on high, will also not exist -- so why bother, if you're not immortal, to live with a code for a world that doesn't exist, that will not exist, and is even counter to the type of being you are?

As it is, baseless subjectivity is the defect being explored. Dedication to principles for a kingdom of ends that will eventually be is one way human beings carry on, ethically -- they even convince themselves that if they repeat certain patterns to themselves that they have contact with Forms or Eternal Good or something. We're an odd, irrational species.

But it's not a satisfying one, from what I can see. Who even understands it but a handful of nerds who like to read?

It's what I term a ghost-morality. The Holy Ghost on high watches you watching yourself doing things in a moral world that will never be.

Sounds like a hobby to me.

Cool, I think we've arrived at an understanding. I understand you to be saying that it's not enough to count, but at least you see the pattern in the example that I'm drawing from. Maybe could draw a weak/strong distinction if we needed to down the road.

Gets at the question I still don't have a good answer for -- what counts as a paradigm? Even Kuhn's example of quantum physics doesn't quite seem paradigmatic in the strong sense in that it does not replace the standard model, but is kind of a science which is about physical reality but describes it different because of the phenomena it focuses upon.

What counts as meaning change within a scientific community?


I agree that the practices, forms of measurement, interpretation of measurement and use of the apparatus must be transformed -- but that's exactly what's taken place with temperature. No one uses the instruments they used in determining the boiling point of water (which is why Chang had to argue that a modern volumetric flask counted as a recreation of the experiments). We've replaced that apparatus with the theoretical "standard temperature and pressure". Temperature is usually measured with a thermocouple or digital thermometer. Chang notes that engineers still study these properties of water, but chemists do not -- the goals and practices of science have changed so much from then that, while it was not a revolution between competing factions ala Lavoisier, a lot has changed since then. (especially, it should be noted, how science is funded -- who has time for such foundational questions as the standard of boiling points or temperatures when we have to make the newest molecule to keep the lab funded, and the thermometers work good enough for our purposes?)

Some additional thoughts:

The measurement of temperature is especially important to chemistry. I could see that maybe boiling point just doesn't seem that important -- it seems like a stray fact rather than some sort of foundational concept which has paradigm-changing possibilities. But establishing a basis of measuring temperature which can be shared made thermodynamics possible, and thermodynamics is a huge part of modern theoretical chemistry.

I'm not sure I'd say that this is a paradigm change though -- only a change in meaning of a basic concept. So maybe not a Kuhnian loss in that sense, like you're saying. But it seemed close enough -- a change in meaning resulting in a loss between generations of scientists -- to count to me.

These two ways of speaking about boiling point don’t seem to
present us with the alternative meanings of ‘boiling point’. They are not disputing what it means for water to boil, or what a threshold ‘point’ means , or what water or temperature mean( these basic concepts are the sort that would be in question in a paradigm shift) . — Joshs

I'd say "threshold point" is the exact thing that changed meaning. In the old way there is no point, it was just a matter of convenience that steam seemed to hold constant temperature so they could get on with the business of measuring temperature after establishing some kind of way of making consistent measurements.

The notion of a point goes along with Standard Temperature and Pressure, which is really more theoretical than empirical. It's *at 100 degrees C* that water boils, with some changes due to temperature and pressure -- but no mention of the hydrophobic/phillic properties of the vessel changing the boiling point, or the effect of dissolved air on water's boiling.


I'd say that the equipment involved and the economic model of science at the time and all that goes into the context of discovery would change the meanings of the terms.


I'd say that what the scientists were doing to improve measurements of water boiling point would count as normal science, for sure -- I'm not sure where the loss actually occurred. But what they meant by "water boils at 100 degrees C" and what we mean seem different to my eyes.

Yes, I see that connection. In a way you could say that personal integrity comes before all other considerations -- including others, as has been pointed out here.

Doesn't boiling point count? Hasok Chang speaks of two ways of speaking about boiling points -- the "Standard Temperature and Pressure" modern sense, and the variable-empirical route from the 18/19th centuries gone over in the paper which includes marking where water begins to boil and when it's a full boil.

http://www.sites.hps.cam.ac.uk/boiling/

Came across this guy today. Cool little essay on the history of boiling points, and some experiments the guy did to validate some of the old work on boiling points that had been lost.

Here's a pretty clear case of Kuhn loss, I think. Note that Kuhn-loss doesn't mean that these things are irretrievable -- only that they are lost due to the accidents of history (focusing on cutting edge research, as the author puts it here -- or, in the case of Kuhn, during scientific revolutions).

I think this thought of the image is something which existentialists attempt to stop. Isn't conforming to an image of yourself a good description of inauthenticity? You aren't being, you're cognizing who you are and acting from that. Sartre's description of the waiter seems to fit that description. Rather, it seems the existentialist wants us to be who we are rather than conform to an image of who I am, in accord with a role with such-and-such responsibilities and privileges.


At its broadest I think that existential ethics are possibly consistent with a religious life -- a life of death-and-rebirth, in a sense, gets along with how wide the existential condition is. I think that this point of contrast is good because I think that the existential religionists reinterpret their religions in light of existentialism (perhaps this is a way of filling out the existential ethic?) And I like your contrast between the death of the self with life-affirming (self-affirming?) themes in existentialism. There's something to that.

Perhaps the religious life sees an end-point -- to act out of universal love, as opposed to from the self. An atheist existentialist would say that such a condition of universal love does not exist due to moral rules or religious teaching. These too are images. Or, at least, if we are the saints that the religious talk about, we have no need for moral codes or injunctions from religious leaders, and no amount of social pressure will turn us into what we aren't. It's not the code doing the work, it's the person being who they are! We apes are partially saintlike, at times -- though not all of us.

***

Or, being who they aren't? funny thing here -- if who we are is what we do, then whatever we do we are who we are, but there is the theme of authenticity -- we can be ourselves authentically or inauthentically. For Heidegger he seemed to contrast authenticity with everydayness or being busy. Interestingly to the charges made here, if we include Levinas, then I'd say he actually manages to escape the charge of selfishness or individuality, given that we only come to know ourselves as ethical beings within the face-to-face relationship of the Other.

Then I don't see what this thread is about. — Bartricks

Sometimes I just have thoughts come to me, and in this case that's all the thread was about -- here attempting a summation of sorts that captures many diverse thoughts into a few.

Perhaps a good frame would be to ask "What are the limits of an existential ethic?" ? That'd be a question that gets at what I was thinking through.

But there's no 'ethic' here, inasmuch as it is left open exactly what we are morally obliged to do. The point is just that when the ground of the reason for action is some consideration that is not to do with one's self - not to do with promoting one's own interests - it can qualify as a moral reason. — Bartricks

This is fascinating in relation to:

For Sartre, Marxism. But I think virtue ethics will suffice; a virtue being how we want to be, and hence authenticity remains "living with yourself". — Banno

We can call ourselves moral by committing to something other than ourselves. That fits perfectly with the frame proposed here -- insofar that a person is committed to anything outside the self, then they are acting morally. So existential ethics don't prevent one from committing to Family, God, and Country. If that's who you are then you are acting in good faith, and the meta-ethical consideration is satisfied.

I think the charge is that existentialism is too permissive -- while one could be dedicated to Marxism, one could also be dedicated to building a cult of personality, and insofar that you are authentically a sociopath you can continue to live with yourself, or live authentically. So, at best, existential ethics can offer some persons a way to question what they are doing and whether or not it's something they ought to be doing or if they should do something else, it doesn't give a guide beyond that.


I wonder -- is there some way to state the existential demand which addresses this concern? Or is individualism and and selfishness enough of a charge to deflate the project?

Is this a discussion on (the pricking of) conscience? What is conscience but the realization that one has done wrong even when one has gotten away with it? The context, sensu amplo, is the perfect murder and the experiences of the murderer, morally and judicially speaking. Is an immoral act a cross to bear, a millstone around the neck, a sword of Damocles vis-à-vis an active, unforgiving, conscience? — Agent Smith

I think it could be, in that "the pricking of conscience" is a common way people make ethical decisions -- you mentioning murder makes me think of Raskolnikov, who was clearly overly bothered by the existential situation and took it to an extreme -- I wonder if the fear holds up? If there is no God, is everything permitted? Did Raskolnikov actually demonstrate our freedom to murder, or did he demonstrate the opposite? It's not like he lived a happy life.

There is no escape from choosing and no escape from the consequences of making choices. That's existentialism in a nutshell for me — 180 Proof

This inability to escape -- I agree that that's the theme! But I wonder why is "escape" the metaphor? (edit: not that you have to answer or anything... just an errant thought)

In Sartre's terms values make demands on us, yet we must choose which of those demands we will meet. So we live with the results of those choices. Hence, commitment then becomes the basis for authenticity. — Banno

Fair. "Living with yourself..." includes Sartre and Trump. Both of them lived with the decisions. And regardless of the facts, philosophically speaking we can see them both as paragons of how they wanted to be.

An existential interpretation of virtue -- hrm thinking the thoughts now

I agree. That's probably what I'm going for. I acknowledge that the extreme needs to be known though.

Perhaps replacing "authenticity" with "living with yourself"?

But what work is the word 'existential' doing? — Bartricks

Just a category term, nothing more. Sartre, Camus, Heidegger, Levinas.

(EDIT: persons I still puzzle through. I'm no expert on any of them, and "existential" should be understood in a general category of philosophy sense. but this seemed like a synthesis/summation that might look good, or at least generate discussion ;) )

But surely morality is primarily about others, not oneself? — Bartricks

I agree.

And, after you mistreat someone, you will still live with yourself -- knowing what you did.

I decided to go ahead and vote "Yes" because some losses seem reasonable.

I wonder about the notion of "paradigm". Would the so-called "quantum revolution" count in spite of being a common example of a paradigm? Couldn't you just see these are two physics, one of the bigger-than-quantum, and the other of the smaller-than-continua? Isn't that a sort of "rule" that makes them co-exist?

:up: -- Coyne's work is one of my favorite pop-sci's that actually goes over the reasoning.

I think this is the sort of ideal that scientists aspire to. One can even interpret Aristotle's physics in Newtonian language as a limiting case of Newtonian physics -- objects falling in a fluid do fall at different rates, and the heavier ones tend to displace fluids faster so, in that limited sense, it was a correct statement, with a different explanation.

What do you make of this? https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thomas-kuhn/#KuhnEarlSemaIncoThes

It directly addresses this line of thinking.

Are there useful points of comparison in this between Kuhn and Feyerabend? — Tom Storm

I think so. Feyerabend was clearer than Kuhn, especially on incommensurability.

But I think I'm coming around on The Structure of Scientific Revolutions -- one of the problems I've had in talking Feyerabend is feeling like I have to explain Popper first. Feyerabend is technically clearer, but requires more background. Kuhn, on the other hand -- while the text isn't super clear, it's not reliant upon a dialogue either.

I agree that I don't see much loss... I wonder if the amount of loss matters?

Or, maybe there's a way to demonstrate loss academically -- going back to see if there really are records and such that you could try and decipher to compare -- so the amount that it matters could be determined by academics, while we merely interested persons could at least learn that science isn't immune to human frailty.

It may not matter in the long run, but I'd say that Kuhnian loss -- even of a small variety -- goes against some version of scientific progress. I believe we'd agree here.

But the judgment of degree isn't easy to say, I think. It's a historical counter-factual, so... at best imaginative guesses informed by reality and patterns.


I think one of the reasons Kuhn is interesting to read is he was crossing the boundary between scientific and historical thought, and somehow managed to write a text that almost blended the two. (but failed, ultimately)

I think this another good, accessible read:

https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/lavoisier/antoine-laurent-lavoisier-commemorative-booklet.pdf

Obviously in favor of the revolution -- and really, why not? It's born some good fruits (and some bad ones too...)

But I don't know if I'd be willing to say progress was exactly what happened in the revolution. I remember watching a documentary about Newton's fascination with alchemy -- not just Newton's research but was there a loss of knowledge just by this switch distinctly opposed to alchemy?

Also, even within the pamphlet, it's interesting to note that Lavoisier looked to the youth in his arguments -- so, insofar that the youth do not listen to their elders, it'd seem that there'd be a Kuhn-loss there -- but one that's not easy to demonstrate (just thinking about how much knowledge my own mentors had retained, but hadn't really shared except verbally)

@Banno has the right read on him, I think. He's always interesting. He shares his work for the public. He definitely has a unique perspective on the world. And figuring out why he's wrong is a great pass time :D

Though, I'll say just to give a little diversity here -- in the hopes that others will share where they began -- my first philosophical thoughts began in the old time religion. People said some stuff, but it wasn't quite like whatever else was up. And really to me, then, it was all the same: a child just learns from the people around them.

So, historically too -- philosophy begins in religion.

Obviously, since the first offers hard-to- be-denied proofs and the other not. The first uses hard-to-be-ignored physical experimentation and the other not. And so on. — Alkis Piskas

I think this is the one part where you and I differ. While I have a limiting view of philosophy, since I see the two as kind of doing the same thing more or less, that view applies to science as well.

Agreement? Disagreement? Why did that matter in the first place? Not sure.

I think that, at first blush, they look very different. But if you care about them and invest the time to figure out why one or the other works then that difference isn't as easy to pin down as it looked up front.

Heh. Yes, despair.

I had the thought this evening -- it also begins in anger. When things aren't right, but you can't articulate it -- philosophy begins in an anger that wants to understand itself.

Fanon (and on certain readings, Plato even!) come to mind here.

Hrm, hrm, hrm... Yeah, I can see that Chalmer's is being Chalmers. :D He has a masterful command of the issue, he explains his opponents positions clearly and eloquently, then he asserts "But there's more to it!" :D

To be fair he's right that my thesis would need more work than some hand-wavey allusions, so we're kind of in the same boat in that regard. So I can understand why someone whose looking for a reason for philosophy questions to be different to simply not see eye-to-eye with me, since I tend to see the activities as pretty similar, at least similar enough that there's not a strict distinction to be made. We can take examples for a basis of judgment and we kind of know what we're talking about in how they're different, but it's not anywhere near as clear as it needs to be for Chalmers' thesis, I think. But there it is -- dueling intuitions :D


EDIT: I should note I love Chalmers, even if this sounds disparaging. He's definitely one of my favorite living philosophers.

Thank you :)