Ehhhh.....little challenge never hurt anybody. — Mww

I don't think that's true.

Ya know. — Mww

Kant wanders off into inexplicability.

Oh. That. Ya know....folks just need to get over this noumenal stuff. — Mww

Ok. So the mind is phenomenal. It's a product of itself.

Why not?

The question is about the connection between logical necessity and physical causation. It's trickier than it looks! — Wayfarer

Understanding your question is tricky. Causation is explanation. It's the answer to "why?"

Necessity is modality. It's the answer to "could it have been otherwise?“

Where do you see the connection?

I’m not sure I understand the question. What have I said he’s done, that he himself said couldn't be done? — Mww

Wouldn't he say it's wrong to think in terms of a noumenal world? Since a world is a construction of the mind?

But if so, where is the mind? Within its own contructed world (I don't think that makes sense) ? Or outside it in the noumenal realm?

Talking about mind-independence in science? Not sure what that means. Isn’t all causation non-human? — Mww

I should have said supernatural causes. Science is about natural causes. Human causes, or acts of will would be distinct from natural causes. That's built I to the meaning of "natural" right?

"In Europe, “the narrative is becoming: This is what you get if you deal nicely with authoritarian regimes,” said Ivana Karásková, a researcher on Chinese foreign policy at Charles University in Prague. “It’s becoming not only about Russia; it’s also about China.”". - - NYT

The old conflict between democracy and totalitarianism rises again.

Yes. “World” is an object in general, comprised of and representing a multiplicity of other objects subsumed under it. All objects in general are objects of reason therefore constructed a priori by it in accordance with rules, which.....for better or worse....it also constructs. — Mww

How is Kant not doing the thing he says can't be done?

He's saying there is no mind independent world. There can't be because worlds are always constructions of mind. But what's the setting for this mind that constructs worlds? It's not a world?

Also, would Kant say that when we talk about mind-independence in science, we're talking about non-human causation?

recently posted a thread on Stack Exchange on the relation between physical and logical causation. — Wayfarer

Causation is basically explanation, so in drawing a distinction between "physical" and "logical" causes, are you asking if we're bound to rely on logic for our explanations?

Are you asking if logic is innate?

it’s the rate of change which is different and destabilising — Punshhh

Absolutely.

Even if you might be saying there is the world as it is and there is the world as we think it is, we are nonetheless referring to one conceptual representation when we use the word, even if under different conditions. — Mww

That makes sense. So a world is always a construction.

The climate we’re used to had stabilised over millennia. — Punshhh

It wasn't going to stay that way, though.

Kant spoke of "space" and "time" as forms of sensible intuition, because he thoughts these were absolute. — Manuel

But Relativity emerged from thought experiments, so it indicates that the world does conform to the way we're bound to think.

but now we may have to take into account the new physics — Manuel

Quantum mechanics or relativity?

That we attribute cause to the world because it is a part of the way we view the world, does not solve the problem — Manuel

The idea of law is also built into perception, right?

If I misunderstood what you meant, and went off on a useless tangent....let me know so I can adjust accordingly. — Mww

I think you did understand me even though I did t say it very well.

So we end up with two meanings for "world". There's the world we know, which is the world that's available to science.

And there's the world we can't know.

never occurred to him that the understanding itself might, perhaps, by means of these conceptions, be the author of the experience in which its objects were presented to — Mww

And that's one way to reunite the boundaries of thought to the boundaries of possibility as long as we recalibrate "reality" to the world as we know it, right?

They can be glued together by observation. — Haglund

Although it's dubious to say we observed something that's impossible. We'll tend to continue trying to make observations fit with logic somehow even if it takes decades as with quantum theories.

Physical reality has limits. Logic has no limits. — Haglund

I think logic is about the limits of thought. We can think this way, but not that.

Physical reality not excludes the middle. — Haglund

So you're drawing a line between the way we think and the way the world is.

Once you've done that, there's the problem of how to put them back together.

Christ as the Nous.

The trinity is Neoplatonism.

If it does, I do hope nuclear winter and global warming cancel each other out. — Benkei

That would be nice, but I don't think it works that way.

There's a path from here directly to global nuclear war. Can't say that every day.

It is absolutely legitimate to heap focus on the most destructive and powerful imperial agent on the face of the Earth, especially as a bulwark against those who continue to swallow Western propaganda wholesale while spouting off racist narratives as a matter of casual conversation. — StreetlightX

Keep up the good work. :up:

The idea is that the use of a tactical nuke would cause enough fear of a strategic exchange to force adversaries to compromise. It's part of a trend towards a more aggressive nuclear posture that Putin's Russia has continually made as it falls further behind its neighbors technologically and militarily. — Count Timothy von Icarus

So an embargo would likely lead to the use of strategic missiles.

All true. :grin:

China's finally got it.

That makes a lot of sense. It looks like Zelensky also doesn't want it to escalate.

Thanks again.

So why does the head of the CIA publicly float the idea that Putin might use tactical nukes? Is he just spouting off? Or is he trying to accomplish something with that statement?

Thanks for the info.

More interesting question is what the Ukrainians will do. — ssu

What are their alternatives?

The pressure for social change was largely internal. Honestly I'd expect external pressure (especially from the French)to result in stubborn backlash. — Hanover

I was surprised to find out this isn't true. Here's an article about it. You need to have access to jstor.

What do you think the US will do if Putin uses nukes?

I think people usually view the world through the lens of 'concepts'. Be it concept of science or concept of religion, etc. — stoicHoneyBadger

Is it possible that people act in the world without any concepts, but when they analyze their experiences, concepts enter as gears in the machinery of explanation?

And then maybe these explanations, arising from reflection, affect the form of future actions.

Well, capitalist right wingers might be worried about profits, but most conservative or right wing people object to in-migration on cultural grounds. — Bitter Crank

This makes me wonder how things will be affected as the US becomes a more Latino nation.

A lot of Latinos are very conservative and condemn illegal immigration as much as any neo-Nazi Klan member would. So things might not change.

In the 1980s the unions were destroyed and soon it became a setting for undocumented workers. — Bitter Crank

So it ends up being a way that employers can circumvent all the protections American labor has achieved.

Putin was mainly provoked by the fact that Ukraine was successfully independent.

Long interview with Zelenskyy published in the Atlantic Monthly — Wayfarer

:up:

About 4 years ago, there was almost a border deal: Trump would have gotten $20 billion for border security, and Democrats would have gotten DACA protections. Trump's base got wind of it, and there were howls of protest, so the deal fizzled. — RogueAI

So part of it is racism or xenophobia?

The FRA (a European human rights watchdog) says labor suppliers need to be registered and employers punished for using unregistered migrant suppliers.

IOW, Europe needs to start regulating the whole sector. Is that possible? Or would rightists squash that as a threat to profits?

At the worst end of the exploited labor spectrum are those who are forced to work, often dangerous work without normal safety measures, live in squalid conditions, receive little or no compensation, and face beatings and rape.

"The International Labor Organization (ILO) estimates that at least 12.3 million people are victims of forced labor at any given time, 2.4 million of whom toil in forced labor as a result of trafficking. The U.S. Department of State estimates that 14,500 to 17,500 people are trafficked into the United States each year.". - - ACLU.

Per one DOJ effort to quantify it in North Carolina, about 17% of interviewed workers gave details that suggested trafficking and exploitation. Most were undocumented. But since enslaved migrants are threatened to keep quiet, this estimate may be low.

Shouldn't governments work to end this particular kind of exploitation?

:up:

But my explanation for why the US doesn't take the problem more seriously doesn't explain why exactly the same problem exists in the EU.

Migrants are enslaved in the same way: recruiters trick them into accepting transport to labor positions, and then their freedom is taken away and they're threatened to keep them quiet.

The Fra has these suggestions for measures the EU could take to reduce these crimes:

"EU Member States should require employment
and recruitment agencies and their subcontractors to avoid fraudulent or deceptive recruitment. This should apply to agencies based and operating in the EU, to their branch offices located in third countries and to those agencies based abroad and providing workers to EU Member States. To achieve this, EU
Member States should put in place:

• registration, licensing and, in particular, certification systems for agencies operating in this sector;
• clear liability rules when employment and recruitment agencies subcontract part of their activities to other agencies;
• a list of licensed temporary and recruitment agencies to EU embassies in the countries of
origin of migrant workers;
• dissuasive penalties for non-compliance with
existing legal standards;
• an effective and well-funded monitoring
mechanism to oversee the activities of em-
ployment and recruitment agencies, in coop-
eration with trade unions and relevant human
rights institutions and civil society. This should
focus, in particular, on unlawful or deceptive
practices by employment and recruitment
agencies, such as:
- collecting of recruitment fees and other
charges from workers, which contravenes
Article 6 (3) of the Directive on Temporary
Agency Work (2008/104/EC);
- replacing the worker’s contract originally
signed prior to travelling for the purposes
of obtaining the residence permit with
a  less favourable contract once the third-
country national starts working;
- confiscating the worker’s identity or travel
documents;
- using psychological and physical threats to
prevent migrant workers from complaining
of abuse. Activities of monitoring bodies should prioritise, but not be limited to, the employment sectors where there is evidence of recruitment agencies being more often used, namely domestic and agricultural workers.

"EU Member States are encouraged to sign bilateral agreements with third countries of origin of migrant workers, to limit the need for the services of recruitment agencies.
In line with Article 5 (1) of the Directive on Temporary Agency Work (2008/104/EC) establishing the principle of equal treatment and equal pay between agency workers and the regular workforce, EU Member States should make sure that workers employed by temporary agencies enjoy equal basic employment and working conditions.

" Preventing online recruitment
Some victims found work through the internet, and they were deceived because working conditions turned out to be different from those advertised. In some areas of serious organised crime, Europol supports Member States with intelligence about suspicious websites. An enhanced use of the capabilities Europol has could help Member States to take measures against persons running deceptive recruitment sites, particularly when there is a suspicion of trafficking in human beings.

"FRA opinion 2
Member States’ authorities could draw upon the
support of Europol to detect the internet sites that traffickers and exploitative employers use.
EU Member States should discuss with social
networking sites the implementation of safety
features in relation to job offers, encourage website owners to report suspicious advertisements to police, and introduce independent monitoring of internet safety in relation to online recruitment. In this respect, closer cooperation with internet service
providers and social media should be established."

So how do we explain the severe exploitation of labor in the EU?

But after a righteous Civil Rights Movement, why hasn't this problem been addressed by a nation that prides itself on its human rights stance? — frank

I'll give my two cents worth.

The Civil Rights Movement was driven in part by national security concerns in the context of the Cold War. There was international pressure on the US to clean up its act wrt segregation in the South (much of it from France). The US responded to this pressure because its fairly monstrous appearance (regarding lynching, for instance) was driving neutral areas of the world toward the USSR and China.

There is no international pressure on the US at this point, and no reason for the last superpower to take note, even if there was.

This is a case study in the benefits of balanced power in the world. A lone superpower has no conscience, no one to hold up a mirror and say, "Look!!"