Good points. But I'm wondering. We can say therr are just killings of people. For example, it's not murder when we execute a convicted murderer. Or when we kill in self-defence. But what is an example of a just killing of a fetus? When it puts the pregnant woman's life in danger seems like an obvious example. Any others? — Patterner

In a legalistic setting (as opposed to a philosophical one), the questions of when the taking of a life is justified and when it is not is just spelled out in whatever law you pass. That is, I can take a life to save my own, or another, or even to protect my dwelling. There need not be any underlying principle guiding any of this, but just whatever legislatures want to do.

So, if abortion is declared illegal in a very broad way, you end up with unintended consequences like what happened in Alabama. In vitro fertilization became illegal because the fertilized eggs in test-tubes were considered people because human life began at conception, which means their disposal was murder. You would have to preserve all unused fertilized eggs I guess forever. Maybe you'd have to create a birth certificate with each creation of life and a death certificate with each death and then send that to the department of vital records. That needs to be worked among those in Alabama, but that's the problem of the hard and fast rule that a sperm attached to an egg is a person fully endowed with rights.

Roe v. Wade, like it or not, created a workable solution from a pragmatic perspective and now all of this is opened back up to work out now that it no longer is controlling law.

It's interesting when it becomes more of a challenge to invent a problem than for the AI to solve it. — Christoffer

We're accepting that AI is artificial, which means that it does not go through the same curiousity humans do when they arrive at questions. The question isn't the process by which the program comes up with its questions, but it's whether the question asked is is indistinct from what we arrive at ourselves. We also have to realize that we don't actually know how our curiosity and creativity arises, and it's reasonable to assume a considerable amount comes from what we are taught or learned through just experiencing life.

The way this forum works, for example, is that a poster has a thought he believes philosophically interesting and so he posts it for feedback and discussion. I believe ChatGPT can arrive at good thread topics that would compete agaisnt what we see from real live posters.

I asked ChatGPT for an original topic to post here and it asked:

"If consciousness is the lens through which we experience reality, does altering this lens—through technology or substances—mean we are experiencing a different reality, or merely a different perception of the same reality?"

This question would pass muster on this Board and it would spark conversation. It is as well presented as anything else we see here and provokes questions above reality and direct and indirect realism. In terms of comparing this question to what the general non-philosophical public might consider, I'd suspect that it is more complex than the vast majority of people could arrive at.

We also have to keep in mind that the free version of ChatGPT is not the most sophisticated AI product on the market and not one specifically focused on philosophy, which means better questions and answers could be created.

My view is that AI advances will result in greater disparity between the higher and lower intellects. With chess, for example, the world didn't become filled with equally matched players, all who had the answers at the ends of their fingertips. The world became filled with higher chess performers who learned to utlize the programs to advance themselves. It's like if you and I worked with Einstein and you spent your days picking his brain and asking him every question you had about physics and I just avoided him because he was quirky and boring, you'd come out much smarter than me. Making information available helps only those with the curiosity to look at it.

So what, if any, philosophical questions does ChatGPT# ever raise (without begging them)? — 180 Proof

LLMs are still just sophisticated toys. — 180 Proof

I don't think this follows. Your question doesn't point out the lack of intelligence (artificial or otherwise) of the AI programs, but it points out the lack of emotion of the programs. I'm using the term "emotion" in its most original form, as in that which motivates or moves someone to do something. AI programs obviously have no internal desire to do anything, but they leave motivations to the users.

This isn't to say they couldn't have motivations planted within them consistent with the programer's needs and artificially appear thoughtful and philosophical. For example:

Me: Come up with unusual philosophical questions and provide me answers to them

ChatGPT: Here are some unusual philosophical questions along with thoughtful answers:

1. If a memory is shared between two people, does it belong to both?
Answer: Shared memories create a unique bond between individuals, suggesting a communal ownership. While each person may interpret the memory differently, the experience connects them. This raises questions about identity and the essence of personal experience: is a memory more valuable because it’s shared, or does that diminish its individuality?

2. If you could remove one emotion from human experience, would it be ethical to do so?
Answer: Removing an emotion could lead to unforeseen consequences. For example, if fear were eliminated, people might take reckless risks, undermining safety and survival. Emotions serve adaptive purposes; they guide behavior and enrich life. Ethically, tampering with the emotional spectrum could hinder personal growth and the depth of human connection.

3. Does the act of naming something change its essence?
Answer: Naming something often shapes our perception of it. The label we assign can influence our understanding and interactions. For example, calling a "weed" a "wildflower" changes how we appreciate its beauty. This suggests that language and perception are intertwined; naming can reflect and shape reality, emphasizing the subjective nature of existence.

4. If technology could accurately simulate any experience, would actual experiences lose their value?
Answer: While simulations could provide rich experiences, the authenticity of lived moments carries intrinsic value. Actual experiences are tied to context, emotions, and personal growth. Simulations might offer convenience or pleasure, but they lack the depth of genuine interactions. Value lies not just in the experience itself, but in the lessons and connections formed through it.

5. If an object is lost and then found, is it the same object?
Answer: This question touches on identity and continuity. The object's physical components may remain unchanged, but its context has shifted. Philosophically, it raises issues about identity over time: are we the same person as we were years ago? This suggests that objects and beings exist in a dynamic state, influenced by experiences and changes in meaning.

6. Is it possible to truly understand someone else’s perspective?
Answer: While empathy allows us to grasp another’s feelings and thoughts, complete understanding is elusive. Each person’s experiences, memories, and contexts are unique. We can strive for understanding, but our interpretations are always filtered through our own lenses. This invites humility in our interactions and an appreciation for the complexity of human experiences.

7. If a person creates art that evokes emotion in others, does the intention behind the art matter?
Answer: Intention plays a role in interpretation, but the emotional impact is often independent of the creator's goals. An artist may intend to provoke joy, but viewers might find sadness. This highlights the relationship between creator and audience, suggesting that art exists in a shared space where meaning is co-created. The dialogue between intention and reception enriches the artistic experience.

8. If you could live in a perfectly just society, would you still want to?
Answer: A perfectly just society may seem ideal, but it could lack the complexities that make life rich. Challenges and conflicts often drive growth, creativity, and community. A society without conflict might lead to stagnation or boredom. This raises questions about the balance between justice and the chaotic beauty of human experience.

These questions invite deeper exploration into existence, ethics, and human connection, encouraging us to reflect on the intricacies of life.

He made an interesting point, Patterner, I mean. If it's not legally considered a human, just another mass of organic matter of no significant value to the bearer, perhaps even undesired, it would be akin to placing a laxative in someone's food or drink, I believe is what his point is. — Outlander

This doesn't follow. The fact that we may not consider a fetus a person doesn't mean that we can't place the value of the death of the fetus over indigestion. The unjust killing of a person is murder. The unjust killing of a fetus is feticide.

It's consistent to protect the value of fetus without affording it the full rights of personhood. We offer differing values for differing things, human or not. Burning down your house will result in a more serious crime than burning your cigarette.

And this is consistent with Roe v. Wade law when abortion was legal. There were laws against feticide during those years and there were laws regulating the use of and disposal of fetal tissue and organs. It's not an all or nothing proposition where you either grant fetuses full rights of personhood or you treat them like ordinary refuse.

That's absurd. Parents (biological or other) not only have the right, but the duty to make decisions about their children's lives. Why should there not be a similar right and duty to make decisions about a foetus? After all, we allow people to make decisions for their relatives when they are ill and unable to make the decisions themselves. — Ludwig V

Parents don't have the right and duty to end their child's life.

But with that logic you would be murdering something to cover up a rape. Do two wrongs make a right? — Samlw

That wasn't my logic. You said that women should have a choice whether to have a child and I agreed. I then said that when a woman is raped, her right to decide whether to have a child has been violated (and she was violated in many other ways most certainly) and that is why many agree that in cases of rape abortion is permissible.

That is, one way women choose to have children is by having sex. It's the most common way actually. Women should have the right to choose to have children, but if they're raped and become pregnant, they were deprived that choice. For that reason, abortion might be argued to be permissible in that instance.

And I would argue that it shows an actual advancement in civilisation where we can safely choose whether or not to have a kid. — Samlw

The reason some allow for the exception for rape is because people should be given the right to choose to become pregnant. If the sex was consensual, the choice was made to expose yourself to the risk of pregnancy. That's how that works.

I'm not pro-life, by the way, largely because I rely upon a personhood definition when allowing for abortion. The problem is words lack essences, so we'll never figure out the specific moment when the fetus becomes a person. I don't believe though that the clear line distinction of personhood at conception is patently ridiculous. I just can't buy into a 1 day old conceptus being a person as we typically think of people, but I do get the other side's point.

In which case it would have to be discussed on what do we class as a life. Consciousness is believed to start developing around 24-26 weeks into the pregnancy. — Samlw

But we're not permitted to kill the unconscious, so that must not be the basis for deciding if someone is a person.

The US Supreme Court, prior to striking down Roe v. Wade, didn't rely upon consciousness either. It relied upon viability, meaning the ability of the fetus to survive on its own outside the womb.

Think about how many teenagers who don’t understand life have managed to have an abortion. Think, if they were forced to have that child would their quality of life decrease or increase? Obviously there would be cases of their life increasing but I believe the vast majority would have a decrease. — Samlw

Now you've arrived at a new criterion, which is to weigh the quality of life of the mother if she has the baby versus if she doesn't. Is this an objective evaluation I can perform for a woman, or do I just trust the woman when she tells me subjectively what she thinks will be a better life for her? Should married women of financial means be required to have the child where ill equipped teenagers should be allowed to abort? Do you use the "quality of life" criterion exclusively or do you also throw in a time period rule correlated to consciousnes of the fetus, where the woman has to decide before 24-26 weeks whether her life will be better or worse with the baby? If a woman says she thinks her life will be better with the baby and all objective analysis shows she's correct, but she feels social pressue to have the abortion, will she be forbidden to have the abortion, or is her choice supreme and unchallengable?

The point here is that this is not a simple question, which is why it is so hotly contested.

If there are more planets than possible words then you can't give each of them a different name. It doesn't matter if you have seen all of them. — Tarskian

I don't understand what it means to have more planets than possible worlds if possible worlds are infinite in number.

But, if you could have infinite planets, you could name each one as a number. I don't follow how there can be an infinite set of planets but not an infinite set of names.

For example, there are uncountably infinite real numbers. Therefore, it is impossible to express all of them in language. — Tarskian

This doesn't work. The fact that you can't express every number at once because there are an infinite number of numbers doesn't mean there is any single number that can't be expressed. That there is a certain number that has not been expressed in fact doesn't mean there is a certain number that cannot be expressed in theory.

That I've not seen all the planets doesn't mean those I've not seen are ineffable. That some are unknown doesn't make them incapable of being expressed once known.

Is here anything language can express? What does it mean to say that language "expresses"? — tim wood

The other extreme is asking whether there is anything that is expressed that is not language. We take language to be the symbolic representation of reality, where "cat" is another way of representing that thing that wakes you up to be fed every morning.

But that thing that looks like a cat is also but a symbolic representation of reality if you subscribe to a representational model where direct access to the cat is not available.

Does anybody have any experience with drafting an AI Code of Conduct? — Benkei

ChatGpt can provide you one if you'd just ask.

I'll dispense with the obvious for your benefit and say it's antii- natalism.

But I do agree with your comments about Witt.

That's nuts. — frank

I know. Now we've got to start over this whole thread now that we learn you don't need eyes or a brain to see.

Plants can see without eyes and without central nervous systems.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8903786/

It's sort of like what we see are the shadows on the wall cast from the fire behind us. We see a a distorted fragment of the world, but not the world itself.

I don't take credit for that analogy.

Are you OK? — Banno

Meh. So so.

Language games do not involve only words. They are locked into the world by what we do. So fortunately or unfortunately, you are not mere words. — Banno

What we do is "debate." What debating is how we use the term. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Hanover is ""Hanover" iff Hanover is "Hanover." What be Hanover without "Hanover"?

Silence!

Who are you talking to? I'm just a perception. — Banno

Don't ask me. I'm just a word in your game, constructed from usage without metaphysical composition.

I do thank you for speaking my name so that I come into existence.

Everything is the product of the brain. The question is what stimulates the brain to cause that perception
— Hanover
If everything is the product of the brain, then what simulates the brain is the product of the brain. Your narrative leaves you unable to interact with the world. But of course for you the world is just a product of the brain.

You built yourself a self-consistent self deception. Solipsism. — Banno

Yeah, and I think it's clear that my use of the term "everything" references perceptions, which is all you experience, not all that there is , as it's clear I've distinguished between the brain and the stimulus, which means I've admitted to something other than the brain, thus denying solipsism.

I'm not a mind monist. There are bodies. Yours and mine.

Speaking of deception and all things Descartes, which many blame for this whole mess anyway. You are aware that the positing of the great evil deceiver did not lead Descartes to solipsism?

Everything is the product of the brain. The question is what stimulates the brain to cause that perception. The stimulus is not the perception, but just the cause of it. All I know is that I see a pen. If you want to call the pen the stimulus, you can, but you can't say the pen looks like the stimulus anymore than you can say the pain feels like the blade.

Maybe that's true, but I'm more arguing against those who seem to be saying that because we say such things as "the box is red" then it must be that the colour red is a property of the box and not a property of our bodies. — Michael

That's my issue as well.

What I actually think linguistic philosophy holds is simply that "the box is red" means the "box" is "red." That is, they're never actually talking about boxes or redness as a metaphysical entity, but they're instead just talking about how we define words and use words. Under this framework, when @Banno says the box is red, his comment is deflationary, meaning to claim "the box is red is true" is meaningfully indistinct from saying "the box is red." All you can do is define your terms and agree on usage.

When you say the box is red and that it's a product of the mind, that attempts to establish a subjective metaphysical reality to the redness, whereas, from the best I follow, Banno attempts to say "the box is red" just means the box is red as defined and distinguishing which part is subjective and which is objective is folly.

The correspondence theory of truth holds no value in this way of thinking, and so the talking around each other follows.

If this weren't the case, then the obviousness of the brain's role in determining perceptions would be conceeded, but the fact it isn't means there's a larger refusal to even consider the underlying metaphysical structure of objects.

All we have are words in this world, which is an interesting puzzle to construct and sort of admire, but it's largely horseshit as far as it is true.

We see a red box and a blue box. The colour is the relevant visual difference between the two. I don't think that this visual difference has anything to do with language. The difference is entirely in how the boxes reflect light and then how our body responds to that light. — Michael

Specifically it would be our neuronal response to the stimulus that determines how we see the color. I'm trying to understand why it matters in this discussion whether our neuronal response to light is altered by our language skills. I admit that it is doubtful the language bone is connected to the seeing bone, but what would the philosophical import be if it was?

As with hearing, for example, I hear someone say "hello" and I would expect that would elicit my language skills despite the word being just air waves. Whether my mind is so constructed to reduce visual inputs into symbols or representations as well so that they're in some way linguistic in the most general sense, I don't know or see what it matters here. That is, maybe I see red and it makes me mad, or happy, or it reminds me of the time I cut my finger and its visualization is imbued with subjective representations.

Or maybe I'm overthinking this and the point of this discussion is just to tell the Wittgensteinians that their assumptions regarding language are non-scientific horseshit?

Sure, but I don't think all that other stuff has anything to do with the colour, and the discussion is about colour. — Michael

But I don't think phenomenal states of a single ingredient exist. The perception is complex, but to the extent you want to hypothesize a perception of red devoid of any other mental activity, then I guess it could exist without language, although I don't think such a thing could exist at all.

All I am saying is that a deaf illiterate mute can see the difference between a red box and a blue box. That visual distinction has nothing to do with language and everything to do with what the brain does (in response to what the eyes do in response to what the light does in response to what the box does). — Michael

I agree with that, but whether I'd foreclose the role of language in the perception of all things, I don't know I'd go so far and I don't know it matters for the purposes of the OP.

My hesitation is in defining the phenomenal state in terms of just raw images in one's brain. It's not like I just see red in a vacuum, but there are all other sorts of things going on in mind, many of which I'm interpreting as I see the thing.

That is, if I see a cardinal, I don't just see the red of the bird, but I see the whole bird and I also have all sorts of thoughts about what that thing can do and what it is at the same time. I don't just get a raw feed of red.

But to say that I must have language to see a bird is equally wrong. Babies see birds. Why the fetish with language as a particular influencer of reality, I don't really know.

It's 'percepts not 'precepts'. Michael has been arguing that colour is nothing but "mental percepts". I formed the impression you were supporting this claim. If I am mistaken then my bad. — Janus

As @Michael argues, color is not within the external object, but it is within brain. That I am agreeing with. If you limit the term percept (which was what I was trying to understand by asking for a definition) to those perceptions you receive solely from your senses, then I suppose I do disagree with Michael to the extent that I allow that some of my interpretation of the external data might arise from language (and all sorts of other mental processes).

That Michael might allow interpretation of the external object by the sense organs alone and not allow it to also be interpreted by language just seems an odd limitation (if that's at all what he's even saying, as that doesn't seem correct). I see no need to limit how the interpretation occurs, whether it be by language or otherwise.

That is, what seems critical here in response to the OP (and we can't lose sight of the fact that the OP asks the question in this thread, regardless of how meandering the conversation might have become) which is:

Does the color “red” exist outside of the subjective mind that conceptually designates the concept of “red?” — Mp202020

To that question, the answer is that the color red does NOT exist outside the subjective mind if the color is entirely caused by the senses OR if it is caused by language. An admission therefore that language causes us to perceive red in a way peculiar to our language lands red as a subjective entity.

That was the question, not whether red is in its entirety mitigated only by the sense organs. It can be affected by language as well, and that would result in the same answer to the OP.

Okay, well I have no idea how (2) is supposed to follow from (1). — Leontiskos

You are not following what I've said. My point is only that perception is a mental construct.

At this point it seems like you are trying to continue agreeing with Michael despite not agreeing with him on much of anything. — Leontiskos

When did I adopt Michael's position? It seems you're conflating my position with his.

We specifically disagreed regarding the relevance of this discussion, with him clarifying his sole objective was in identifying the scientific position on perception.

Then red is more than merely percepts. — Janus

Define "precepts" how you're using it here. That's not a term I've used or argued for.

Fair interpretation, which is why I then said, "Is what you're saying simply that sometimes language affects our perception and sometimes it doesn't?"

Is the dispute just over the word "necessary" in conclusion #2?

If it is, then that's sort of obvious. Why would I demand that language not be a factor in how we interpret the world? My position has always been that perceptions are indirect interpretations of reality, which would include how we rationally assess them. It's obvious sometimes we think linguistically. It's also obvious sometimes we don't.

This past 30 minutes of conversation arose from this comment of Banno's:

'Things in the word, and the people around us, also have a say in what colours we see."

You made an argument, I pointed out why it was a bad argument, and then instead of responding you asked a question. Was your argument a good argument or a bad argument? Does your conclusion follow? — Leontiskos

You indicated language was a necessary element in the formulation of a perception and I offered an example of perception occurring without language.

You didn't relent with my example, so I asked why my example was inapplicable, and you said "whatever."

Is what you're saying simply that sometimes language affects our perception and sometimes it doesn't?

I just asked a question.

It does not follow from this that babies do not see. — Leontiskos

Do they see red?

Do cats see red even without words?

How would you know the image contains no red if red were nothing more than a percept? — Janus

Because red was defined in the example as certain wavelengths.

You tell me. I'm not arguing about the physiology. — Banno

I assume babies can't see color because "Things in the word, and the people around us, also have a say in what colours we see." Since babies don't know words and words determine what we see, babies can't see, color or otherwise.

Things in the word, and the people around us, also have a say in what colours we see. The brain is not the sole determiner colour. — Banno

Does a baby see color?

To understand the difference between the two is to understand why sight and hearing are not reducible to the brain. If they were reducible to the brain then everyone with a brain would be able to see and hear. — Leontiskos

No one is arguing brains can hear without input of any sort. The argument is that no can hear without a brain.

This is equivocation on "seeing." For example, a blind person does not see when they dream, as your verbiage would have it. — Leontiskos

The question isn't whether seeing via an electrode, through glasses, through your screen window, or through your naked eye are different. They all obviously are. The question is whether there is an ontological difference that impacts the truth value of the judgment that requires differing descriptive words.

What distinguishes the dream with the electrode example is the claim "there is a chair" does not correspond with reality in the dream, but it does with the electrode.

If you wish to preserve the term "see" only for those instances where it is visualized through the naked eye, then why stop there, but instead create 1000s of gradients of the word "see" to preserve each type of corrective lens or optic surgery someone might have?

That is, to say "I 'see' the chair" with my thick eyeglasses and you to say you "see" the same through your cataracts, then that too would equivocate the term "see" as you're arguing it.

Stimulating a brain with some of the methods indicated is just an artificial way to illicit some of the biological effects of an actual, natural stimulus, but is in fact not the same act. — NOS4A2

If I have a cochlear implant and perceive you say "hello" through my "artificial" means, and I say "Nos said 'hello,'" my statement is true under both correspondence and coherence theories of truth. That is, my saying you said hello corresponds to what actually happened and my use of language is consistent with your own.

We would have a different result if I hallucinated you saying "hello. "

None of this demands a direct realism. To demand a direct realism forces a definition of "artificial" to simply mean "other than typically human, " which in no way can be assumed to be more accurate than other methods. To call one method artificial assumes there is an otherwise natural and correct way, but that assumption is the entirety of this debate. That is, what is contested is whether the world as it appears is as it is or whether it has been artificially manipulated by the internal processes.

My position is that all perception is "artificial" if that term means it is an unaltered representation of reality.

That's also false. The blind can't see anything no matter what their brains are doing. — jkop

The blind can see if their brains are directly stimulated.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene

Similarly, the profoundly deaf can hear using direct stimulation methods.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochlear_implant

This is due to the uncontroversial scientific fact that perception is created by the brain regardless of whether the stimulus enters the brain through the normal means of sensory organs or whether it is hot wired directly through a probe.