I am not sure I know what you are saying, — Athena

I was just saying that realism doesn't prevent me feeling good - old bones permitting - or blind me to the good in the world.

I woke feeling great physically and mentally great, and then the subject of desalination threw me into a terrible state of mind, making me think I can relate to "regretting my species". We have the ability to create Eden and instead, we are destroying our planet and escalating war. — Athena

Here you go!

The United States has made remarkable progress over the last two years toward a future where every home is powered by clean energy. Thanks in part to historic federal investments, we’re on a path to use more clean electricity sources than ever before—including wind, solar, nuclear, and geothermal energy—which would reduce household costs, cut pollution, and diversify our energy supply so we’re not dependent on any one thing.https://www.gatesnotes.com/Transmission

Yet most desalination professionals will know it’s not the largest and it raises the question of well, with over 20,000 desalination plants contracted around the world, which are the largest? https://www.aquatechtrade.com/news/desalination/worlds-largest-desalination-plants

At the center of Eden Reforestation Projects is our relationships with local communities. We work alongside them to produce, plant, and protect tens of millions of trees every month, thereby creating jobs to support them in restoring their local environment and economy long-term. https://www.edenprojects.org/our-work

As to culture, when we support the good works and good people, we automatically promote intelligent action, creative thinking and democracy. The young don't just learn from textbooks - and they're way ahead of us in a global culture of co-operation.

These activists are part of a long history in America, stretching back as far back as the 1830s (and likely beyond), of youth challenging and transforming our democracy. Here is a look at some of those movements.https://www.kcet.org/shows/city-rising/youth-activism-in-america-from-armbands-and-walkouts-to-bus-rides-and-voter-drives-that-would-shape-our-democracy

on, for, with, by - pesky little prepositions are like tiny ants, all look the same and get in everywhere

Besides, I would like it if we all belonged to one nation, — Jacques

Yeah, nations were always a bad idea.

if we all had the same skin color, — Jacques

Such uniformity would be less interesting than we have now, but it's only a matter of time.

I never wanted to belong to any group except that of humanity as a whole. — Jacques

I was hoping for a more convivial group, but the dolphins refused to take me along; said white people can't jump.

I don't understand: more peace, less school? — Jacques

less war > more peace > less money spent on ordnance > available to spend otherwise; eg food, schools

Think of the money we'd save for schools lunches - and schools to serve them in!

this business of climate change — Varnaj42

aha

Sure, but also that mostly these things involve deep beliefs tied into a persons sense of self— their values, their life narrative and social persona, etc. — Mikie

Some do. Many are echoes from the echo-chamber of partisanship and would evaporate if they were ever examined in the light of honest reflection. Which is why the partisan propaganda-machine so strenuously opposes reading, critical thinking and contemplation.

Somewhere in the middle seems to be the abortion issue, where neither party seems willing to consider for even a moment that the opposing side may have some points. — noAxioms

We did all that, back in 1955-1970. And at least twice more since. In the US, it seems to come around every couple of political cycles - and each time with more acrimony and resentment caused by wins and losses of the previous battle. That's not about the issue anymore.
Same with gun control and climate change. The issue has been laid out exhaustively and repeatedly; there is no debate left, just the fight.

When you hear people speak of climate change, ask whether it’s all part of an elaborate plot to control people as part of the New World Order, or whether the science is as sound— as much as in any other field you know next to nothing about is. — Mikie

Odd, isn't it? The same people who keep saying, "It's not conclusively proven that changes in wind pattern are caused by human activity." will submit without a murmur to the scalpel of a thoracic surgeon.
You think maybe short term self-interest plays a part?

...and Earth is at the center...

Aha

Thanks but I don't call what we have now an existential threat. I call it a leadership crisis. We allow ourselves to be led by fools. — Varnaj42

I see. Good luck finding non-foolish leaders!

How about we just leave it alone? — Varnaj42

We haven't. That's caused the imminent existential threat.

Do you regularly have a beer or 20 with 180 Proof by any chance? — universeness

No, I usually have it alone - unless you count Madam Secretary.
Anyway, it's hard to drink through an N95 mask disguised as a parrot's beak. (But it makes little children in the supermarket giggle.) And I'm cheerful most of the time. I've done regretting my species - just enjoying what's left of my life.

The human race is NOT DEAD YET! — universeness

Of course not. But a great many other species are going extinct, faster every DAY!
Whatever is left of the human race, after the collapse, will struggle on somehow - how depends partly on which of our glorious enterprises brings on the apocalypse. Probably keep killing one another over the dregs of civilization, until there are few enough that they have no choice but co-operate or die. Then they will make do with what's left, and survive - or not.

I strongly subscribe to, 'If at first you don't succeed, try try again.' — universeness

We had a German Shepherd a long time ago, who had four pups. One of them died within the first day. We buried it, but she kept digging it up and bringing it to my mother, asking her to revive it. Saddest damn thing you ever saw!

would mean that the antinatalists have a good point — universeness

They're redundant. The four famous horsemen will soon take out excess population.

We should enhance this 'did it admirably well,' aspect of future attempts, and work very hard indeed, to remove any possibility of 'f***** it up, mostly in the service of financial interests.' — universeness

Yeah, I already wrote that story. It's a story.

I don't know whether we can even tell in theory what motivates us. It's not all that important to me, to be honest. My intuition says self-interest is probably inescapable, but this comes in soft and hard versions and we need to recognize that self-interest is not incompatible with altruism. — Tom Storm

That, and also: motivations are invariably mixed. - there are many factors and influences, investments and and interests in a human life. So are thoughts mixed with feelings, instincts with calculations. So are outcomes. All you can do is the best you can do, according to your own sense of rightness.

Can you rule out unconscious influences on your actions - guilt, duty, pride, etc? — Tom Storm

IOW: Whatever you do, whyever you think you're doing it, somebody's going to call it self-interest. They tyewll you you don't understand your own motivations - but then, they understand your motivations even less, so what can they usefully tell you, anyway?
What they get out of that, I have no idea - a sense of superiority, maybe, to ethical people?
At the end of a lifetime, some disinterested agency might be able to weigh up everything you did - how much you benefited yourself vs how much you benefited others.
Presumably, you're not expecting a reward, like going to heaven - just a final tally.

Don't you think it's ridiculous that one human invention, money, is the reason why people don't get the water they need to survive? This is why you call money one of the worse human inventions ever Vera, yes? — universeness

Yes. And yet, this is the world as it currently functions, and this is the one in which people have to face the present existential crises.

Do you think human scientists are able to design a 'not for profit,' global irrigation system that works and fully benefits and assists the planets ecosystem and all flora and fauna, that exists on and in the planet (including humans)? — universeness

Nope. Physics, chemistry, geology, biology and meteorology already did that one, and did it admirably well. Farmers and scientists fucked it up, mostly in the service of financial interests. It's too big and too badly skewed to repair in the available time-frame.
Besides, water is only one of the issues we can't easily solve and prefer not to face.

Why do you think. countries that need more water, don't build large desalination plants? — universeness

It costs a lot of money to build a plant; more to build the pipeline from the coast to the dry areas, plus operating and maintenance costs. A lot of countries are doing it and they may not all be equally mindful of the environmental impact or careful with the concentrated mineral byproduct. And, as Athena pointed out, that's used just for humans: the wildlife and native vegetation will die. And that will cause more wildfires, which will destroy a lot of the farms you invested in.

What about Stargate Universe? — universeness

Don't know if I've seen any. I'm not the main SF fan in this household, but we have the same taste: we don't enjoy violence. It's not merely distasteful, it's unenlightening and uninteresting. Plus, I have another aesthetic peculiarity: I hate-grey walls and blue lighting - all those bleak metallic futuristic interiors give me migraine.

True, but not meaningless. Why should it be? — Jacques

Because the more ways a word can be interpreted, the less utility it has in communicating clear ideas. If a word is made to stand for everything, it can't mean anything.

Human motivation is based on reward from the reward center in the brain rather than on calculation. — Jacques

Both, either, neither and/or many more factors.

There are different ways to interpret 'benefit'. The people who want to make a case for essential human selfishness can stretch the word to mean anything that makes you feel good in the moment, such as expressing a social virtue or kind impulse, or anything that helps to safeguard the long term continuity of your genetic heritage, or anything that fortifies the group that affords you protection from some hazard.
Ultimately, every possible act can be said to be done for one's own benefit in some way.
True, but meaningless.

I made the mistake of ordering the entire series of Strargate Atlantis. *sigh* Wraiths come, shooting, somebody gets killed, one of the main characters almost gets killed, clever idea, wraiths are defeated. Humans infighting, shooting, somebody gets killed, one of the main characters almost gets killed... Repeat on another earth-like planet. Repeat, repeat, repeat... I found it a great disappointment - would have liked to spend a whole lot more time exploring Atlantis, the social dynamics of the group, maybe the cultures they encounter - less shooting, more thinking.
As for Star Wars, it was great fun, once, in a proper big-screen movie theater.
STNG, DS9, B5 and Doctor Who are the series we keep revisiting - like going home to see family on holidays.

The mother takes care of the baby. There is no need for the baby to have a mental model of the world to survive. — Metaphysician Undercover

I suppose not, if the mother keeps taking care of it into reproductive age and beyond. But how does the mother know to navigate the world to give her child all the things it needs?

Money is just a medium of exchange. We could use jumping beans if it makes you feel better. — NOS4A2

It doesn't matter what the coinage looks like; any medium of exchange, in order to be generally accepted and used, needs an issuing agency that can standardize, valuate and regulate its.

Why is it necessary to assume that all governance is control by other people? Why should the organization of social, co-operative and mutually beneficial activities be left to the bullies? Why can it not be consensual protection against the bullies who will always try to take over?

Is money a superstition that you want to give up? — praxis

I do! I do! So does Larken Rose, since currency is issued and regulated by government. In case he wants to rethink his position, I recommend a reading of Lord of the Flies.

Mr. Rose also makes the argument that the belief in political authority/the institution of government is a superstition because no one can legitimately wield political authority, as no one has the right to rule or forcibly control another as if he or she were his slave. — AntonioP

What happens in the absence of a constituted government? The biggest, meanest bully puts himself in charge - and he doesn't care about rights.

What do you say? — Jacques

No, that's not how morality works. When it works.
Who determines the "ought to"? Who obeys it, under what conditions? Who disobeys it, under what conditions? Human motivation is never, not even in the first five years of life, as simple as calculating benefit.

Coping mechanisms? — 180 Proof

The optimism bias refers to our tendency to overestimate our likelihood of experiencing positive events and underestimate our likelihood of experiencing negative events.

This has been, in many situations, an important survival mechanism.
I remember a short story we read in GR5, of which I don't recall the title, but it was about a boy who had fallen through ice on a pond and his little brother went for help. The moral was: "Courage consists of holding on one minute longer." Optimism bias has enabled people to do that in many situations.
(The same year, we read a story about a Spartan boy who let his belly get chewed open by a little fox rather than break ranks on parade. At the time, I thought it was just stupid and dead wrong, but now I realize it was about the power of totalitarian zealotry.)
They didn't have a lot of stories about girls back then in Canadian schoolbooks, which, given the subject matter, is just as well. I have - very much later - learned that girls figured more prominently in Russian and Chinese schoolbooks of the same period. That nominal egalitarianism didn't manifest in their cultures, while North American women did fight for and win civil rights. I don't know whether there is a lesson in there, or what it might be.

I concede: our culture has some good bits, just like our altruistic endeavours.

I think you still want to influence others, — universeness

Of course I want to.... But I don't have those binoculars that let me mistake wishes for horses.

You forgot 'and I post on discussion forums.' — universeness

I assumed you knew. Anyway, I don't think of it as a contribution so much as an excuse to skive off work.

I owe my country a lot. — Athena

So do I. Unfortunately, I can't volunteer at the library anymore, but we still give away books every summer.

What is your subject? — Athena

Utopia, atm. Of course, the more i goof here, the slower my editing goes.

Or global warming could mean the end of reality as we know it. — Athena

Not could - is doing so.

As of Tuesday morning, there are 87 active wildfires in the province with 24 out of control

Rivers swollen by days of downpours flooded some towns in northern Italy on Tuesday, forcing some residents to rooftops, while in Venice, authorities prepared to activate a mobile barrier in the lagoon in hopes of sparing the city from a rare May high-tide flooding.

Rising sea level

The same forces that sunk the remote islands could put
coastlines around the world at risk, scientists say.

Both tornado reports and tornado environments indicate an increasing trend in portions of Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Tennessee, and Kentucky.

As glaciers around the world recede rapidly owing to global warming, some communities are facing a new problem: the sudden disappearance of their rivers.

Guess what all these weather upheavals are doing to human populations!
5 facts on climate migrants
[url=http://How water shortages are brewing wars]How water shortages are brewing wars[/url]

You can help if you want! — universeness

I'm doing the part I feel capable of doing. At this time of life, that doesn't amount to much: feed stray cats, grow tomatoes, reduce my carbon footprint and write books.
And fcs, stop blowing on me!

OK then. I'll just "put out the light and then put out the light. "

The pain/disappointment of your current jaded outlook, is your burden.
Why do you want to export it to others? — universeness

I suppose because I still have a tiny spark of optimism left: I still have some dim flicker of hope that if we acknowledge the truth of our times, we might still be able to avert, or at least mitigate the worst outcomes. that's exactly what some of the best, most altruistic, truth-serving people are attempting to do now - they're too busy to celebrate past victories.
It is, admittedly, a very, very small spark.

Affectionate bombs, guillotines and spears; honest land-mines, mustard gas and man-traps won those wars? News to me — Vera Mont

That's your interpretation of the points I am making to connect the ancient servile wars and the revolutionary wars, civil wars and 2 world wars since? — universeness

Victories of the way of love and truth is what I questioned, and your response was a bunch of terribly destructive wars, in which neither love nor truth played any significant role. All wars are won and lost through anger, violence, hate and weapons. Whether they get bigger or smaller over time doesn't seem to affect the means employed in fighting them.
What difference does it make how many slaves Rome had ? Modern India has 18.3 million. I don't think Gandhi could sell this as a victory for love and truth.

Do you still think 'modern slavery' is anywhere near as bad as slavery in ancient times? — universeness

For whom? The 9-year-old soldiers or the girls abducted to serve in brothels?

You have allowed your 'jadism' to blind you to the fantastic improvements that historical altruists, socialists and humanists have achieved. — universeness

No, I'm not blind. Good people do good now, as they did in other times; bad people do harm, as they did other times, and this been known for a long time: Ecclesiastes 1:9 "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

Civilization is not in one of its improving phases at the moment. The second half of the 20th century was a veritable dream of social, scientific, technological and economic progress for a certain segment of the human population, but much of that improvement was at the expense of the other 90%. Moreover, those hallmark wars in the first half, the concentrations of power they established and the ensuing broad sweep of capitalism over the world, laid the foundations for the gross endangerment of the following century. So, here we are on the down-slope. And it's a steep one. Maybe with closed eyes is the most appropriate way to ride it out; pink goggles probably the next best. (I have hopes for a future - just not a very near one.)

The interruption of the constitution changes as the culture changes. — Athena

Indeed. And the US one has improved its provisions for equality of citizens under the law. But it has not guaranteed translating those improvements into a steady improvement law-enforcement, social services or political access to all citizens equally. It has not resulted in a consistent improvement in leadership over time. The arc of that history is all over the place, not upward.

I think that is the general understanding of materialism but being materialistic or spiritual has a different meaning beginning with Aristotle. — Athena

Okay. And how does Aristotle etc. relate to a linking of materialism with militarism in a society?

Simple single-celled organism seem to survive very well, without that desire. — Metaphysician Undercover

How did the brain evolve to its present complexity? Where did it begin?

Therefore it is incorrect to say that survival requires a mental model of the world — Metaphysician Undercover

I don't think a human baby would live very long outside the womb if all it had was the ability to sense heat, light and plankton.

Measure everything in every way we know how to and then see if we can find new ways to measure everything again. — universeness

That way you can pick out all the cherries from the present and prove to your own satisfaction that they are better cherries than the coconuts of the past were. (and vice versa, as required)

These rocked the Roman empire to it's core. Events such as the English civil war, all revolutionary wars, the American civil war, WW I, WW II, all contributed to the eventual human victory against human slavery. — universeness

Affectionate bombs, guillotines and spears; honest land-mines, mustard gas and man-traps won those wars? News to me. Slavery, incidentally, is alive and well.

The number of people in modern slavery has risen significantly in the last five years. 10 million more people were in modern slavery in 2021 compared to 2016 global estimates. Women and children remain disproportionately vulnerable.

https://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_855019/lang--en/index.htm

Child soldiering is a manifestation of human trafficking when it involves the unlawful recruitment or use of children—through force, fraud, or coercion—by armed forces as combatants or other forms of labor. Perpetrators may be government armed forces, paramilitary organizations, or rebel groups. Many children are forcibly abducted to be used as combatants.

https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/

One form of coercion used by traffickers in both sex trafficking and forced labor is the imposition of a bond or debt. Some workers inherit debt; for example, in South Asia it is estimated that there are millions of trafficking victims working to pay off their ancestors’ debts.