I'm not a sci fi guy, but I enjoyed Firefly/Serenity. I liked the imaginative literary ambition of the original Trek (in small doses) but later Trek seemed a bit contrived and mechanical for my taste. I remember hearing about Next Gen in 1987 and saying (quite idiotically it turns out), 'This will never catch on, Trek was an unrepeatable one off!' — Tom Storm

Nonetheless, your "tv scifi" taste is impeccable, mate! :cool:

Yeah, Firefly was really good. Serenity was ok. Most of the human dilemma's covered in Firefly were also depicted in varied ways in B5, Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, BSG, V, etc. I enjoy the varied ways the writers depict common human dilemmas, in a futuristic framework.

I made the mistake of ordering the entire series of Strargate Atlantis. *sigh* Wraiths come, shooting, somebody gets killed, one of the main characters almost gets killed, clever idea, wraiths are defeated. Humans infighting, shooting, somebody gets killed, one of the main characters almost gets killed... Repeat on another earth-like planet. Repeat, repeat, repeat... I found it a great disappointment - would have liked to spend a whole lot more time exploring Atlantis, the social dynamics of the group, maybe the cultures they encounter - less shooting, more thinking.
As for Star Wars, it was great fun, once, in a proper big-screen movie theater.
STNG, DS9, B5 and Doctor Who are the series we keep revisiting - like going home to see family on holidays.

Oh no, all those things are normal. :yum: We can not change the way we live because it would hurt the economy. Like these disasters and wars for resources don't hurt our economy? Sometimes I think reports of human intelligence are highly overrated, but what can be expected of a culture with a God who made humans special from all the other animals and who is a servant to their prayers, giving them whatever they want without limit? Besides these abnormally warm days in May are much better than cool, rainy days. The bugs seem to be very happy with this warm weather. :grin:

Yeah, Firefly was really good. Serenity was ok. Most of the human dilemma's covered in Firefly were also depicted in varied ways in B5, Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, BSG, V, etc. I enjoy the varied ways the writers depict common human dilemmas, in a futuristic framework. — universeness

I particularly remember the Star Trek show about a planet with extremely little water and one tree that someone watered. Maybe that was the tree of forbidden fruit? :chin:

I don't recognise that one Athena? Any more memory of its storyline?

Okay. And how does Aristotle etc. relate to a linking of materialism with militarism in a society? — Vera Mont

I hope you really care about his opinion because I found a really good explanation of it. Follow this link and go to page 79. I can not copy and paste it, but it contains more information on the subject than I have come across before. I enjoy the information at this link.

What about Stargate Universe? Did you try that one, before it got cancelled.
i have all the B5 movies and 'Crusade' (Cancelled) and 'The lost tales'
I bought the remake of V and The spin off from the remake of BSG, called Caprica (both Cancelled).
I bought the remake of Westworld, which tried to be as soft porn as Game of thrones.
I have watched all of game of thrones twice and I still hate the ending.
I can't seem to get through Westworld, as each episode seems worse than the previous one.

I wish they would re-make B5 and do psycore and technomage spin offs.
There are around 15 B5 books, that tell a lot more of the story not told in the 5 series B5 arc.
I have bought and read them all. There are even scams involved in them. There are 3 psycore books and 3 technomage books for B5. You will get the first two books for pennies and then have to pay between £50-£100 to get the 3rd one in a series.

I don't recognise that one Athena? Any more memory of its storyline? — universeness

Nope that is it and I was horrified to think such a thing could happen, but it is happening to our own planet. Our groundwater situation is very bad and when plants do not have the advantage of underground water, unless there is plenty of rain, you get a desert. I think of that Star Trek show when something triggers my awareness of the growing water problems around the world.

Why do you think. countries that need more water, don't build large desalination plants?
The Earth's surface is 71% Water.

I don't refute your sources or what they say, I am just complaining, that what they called democratic, stretches the valid use of the label a little to far for me. — universeness

I totally agree with you, but if we had education for democracy and replaced the autocratic model for Industry with the democratic one, then we have a more fully democratic reality.

I think people will fight much harder when they believe in the cause they are fighting for and not because they have been bribed by money or promises that may or may not be honoured. Mercenaries were never liked by any side of a conflict. There IS often NO alternative to defending against an invader.
I disagree that if the Persians had conquered and subsumed Greece completely into their empire, that the world would be much different, than it is today. Democracy would have still risen to something similar to where it is today. Perhaps only some of the names and prominent stories would change.
Maybe the middle east would be more prominent today that the West but i don't think that would matter much.

I doubt that if democracy would have risen because I don't think the philosophy for it would have risen. However, the more I think on this, the more interesting the possibility gets. There are matriarchies and in a matriarchy, there is more sharing of power than patriarchies. Men just seem strongly bent in favor of hierarchies, masters, and those subject to the masters. Christianity is soaked in that mentality. Some churches broke away from that but I don't think they are the most popular or powerful churches.

I broadly agree with the content of your quote immediately above. I would just not use the Greek civilization, as any kind of important part of the curriculum of increased (free) education opportunities, you rightly suggest, are required to help build a better future for all.

:love: I love what you said because there is another country that was a contemporary of the Greeks who appear to have had much more equality shared by men and women. The only reason I can think of for us not knowing more about them is they must not have written much and did not have libraries like other civilizations. Spartan women had much more freedom than Athenian women. From a woman's point of view Athens have a terrible social order. But with all that said, I think the Greeks had an intellectual superiority.

I love what you said because the subject deserves our attention. How much do you know of other civilizations? Do have an interest in geology which can give us a better understanding of the physical factors that influence humans differently. Like to me, you just opened what looks like a really good puzzle to put together. :grin:

I have repeatedly heard distilling water is very expensive. Also it would overwhelming to depend on it for farming or keeping a forest alive. Now if we focused on turning the whole planet into an Eden, we might create an amazing reality, but for some reason that just isn't what Christians attempt to do. Maybe they are afraid of offending God by taking over his work?

Look at what the people of India and Rome did with toilets and Aqueducts. We can do better. Why don't we do better? Maybe dependency on God leaves us with a lack of motivation?

Why do you think. countries that need more water, don't build large desalination plants? — universeness

It costs a lot of money to build a plant; more to build the pipeline from the coast to the dry areas, plus operating and maintenance costs. A lot of countries are doing it and they may not all be equally mindful of the environmental impact or careful with the concentrated mineral byproduct. And, as Athena pointed out, that's used just for humans: the wildlife and native vegetation will die. And that will cause more wildfires, which will destroy a lot of the farms you invested in.

What about Stargate Universe? — universeness

Don't know if I've seen any. I'm not the main SF fan in this household, but we have the same taste: we don't enjoy violence. It's not merely distasteful, it's unenlightening and uninteresting. Plus, I have another aesthetic peculiarity: I hate-grey walls and blue lighting - all those bleak metallic futuristic interiors give me migraine.

How much do you know of other civilizations? — Athena

The sad thing is that history is written by authors who normally come from the conquering side.
The epicurean communities seemed a better way to live for all concerned, compared to the Athenian system or the vile spartan system. There were no slaves in epicurean communities and women were treated as equals.

I am sure there were many such attempts in the ancient world at creating a tribal community/civilisation, which was not based on a hierarchy of status, based on force, power, wealth etc.
Consider this possible example from New Scientist

On one thing nearly everyone agrees: no utopia has ever existed. Large human societies tend to be governed by coercion. The instinct for warfare has been a driving force in nearly every civilisation of the last five millennia, from ancient Mesopotamia to the British Empire.

Or has it? One mysterious, ancient society might give the lie to that. The civilisation of the Indus valley is the most enigmatic of the four great early civilisations. But while Mesopotamia, ancient Egypt and ancient China gloried in warfare, it seems absent from the Indus valley. Was this a real, functioning utopia? If so, how did it survive, and why did it eventually disappear?

The Indus civilisation flourished from about 2600 to 1900 BC. More than a thousand settlements have been found covering at least 800,000 square kilometres of what is now Pakistan, India and Afghanistan (see map), yet its remains were only discovered in the 1920s. It is now regarded as the beginning of Indian civilisation and possibly the origin of Hinduism.

I have read about some other attempts:

The Hopi Indians:
The primary meaning of the word "Hopi" is "behaving one, one who is mannered, civilized, peaceable, polite, who adheres to the Hopi Way." Some sources contrast this to other warring tribes that subsist on plunder

Tiwanaku
They had no army.
They lived in lands that are part of modern day Bolivia,
Tiwanaku cities were so grand that when the Incas discovered them, they believed they were made by gods.
Over 10,000 people lived in their capital city (also called Tiwanaku), which is believed to be one of the oldest cities in the world.
The civilisation was at the peak of its powers in the 8th century, but mysteriously ended in the 9th century. No one is quite sure why the Tiwanaku disappeared but is believed that they, as well as a similar culture known as the Wari, were victims of a dramatic shift in climate which devastated the crops and caused mass starvation. As they had no writing system and never engaged in war with Spanish conquistadors, the Tiwanaku are a true forgotten civilisation.

No doubt there are many other examples, we know nothing about, as they were 'conquered' and forgotten.

I have repeatedly heard distilling water is very expensive. — Athena

It costs a lot of money to build a plant; more to build the pipeline from the coast to the dry areas, plus operating and maintenance costs. — Vera Mont

Don't you think it's ridiculous that one human invention, money, is the reason why people don't get the water they need to survive? This is why you call money one of the worse human inventions ever Vera, yes?

Also it would overwhelming to depend on it for farming or keeping a forest alive. — Athena

Why?

Now if we focused on turning the whole planet into an Eden, we might create an amazing reality, but for some reason that just isn't what Christians attempt to do. Maybe they are afraid of offending God by taking over his work? — Athena

I already ignore the nonsense that IS christianity and all other religions and theosophism, we just need to get the majority of those in power to do the same, and build a global irrigation system, that fully benefits and assists the planets ecosystem and all flora and fauna on it (including humans).

as Athena pointed out, that's used just for humans: the wildlife and native vegetation will die. And that will cause more wildfires, which will destroy a lot of the farms you invested in. — Vera Mont

Do you think human scientists are able to design a 'not for profit,' global irrigation system that works and fully benefits and assists the planets ecosystem and all flora and fauna, that exists on and in the planet (including humans)?

Don't you think it's ridiculous that one human invention, money, is the reason why people don't get the water they need to survive? This is why you call money one of the worse human inventions ever Vera, yes? — universeness

Yes. And yet, this is the world as it currently functions, and this is the one in which people have to face the present existential crises.

Do you think human scientists are able to design a 'not for profit,' global irrigation system that works and fully benefits and assists the planets ecosystem and all flora and fauna, that exists on and in the planet (including humans)? — universeness

Nope. Physics, chemistry, geology, biology and meteorology already did that one, and did it admirably well. Farmers and scientists fucked it up, mostly in the service of financial interests. It's too big and too badly skewed to repair in the available time-frame.
Besides, water is only one of the issues we can't easily solve and prefer not to face.

Nope. Physics, chemistry, geology, biology and meteorology already did that one, and did it admirably well. Farmers and scientists fucked it up, mostly in the service of financial interests. — Vera Mont

I strongly subscribe to, 'If at first you don't succeed, try try again.' I have no choice, as the alternative of 'just accept the status quo,' would mean that the antinatalists have a good point :vomit: :death:
I will NEVER accept that.
I think AI will help a lot in the future, as well as frighten us.
We should enhance this 'did it admirably well,' aspect of future attempts, and work very hard indeed, to remove any possibility of 'f***** it up, mostly in the service of financial interests.'

I strongly subscribe to, 'If at first you don't succeed, try try again.' — universeness

We had a German Shepherd a long time ago, who had four pups. One of them died within the first day. We buried it, but she kept digging it up and bringing it to my mother, asking her to revive it. Saddest damn thing you ever saw!

would mean that the antinatalists have a good point — universeness

They're redundant. The four famous horsemen will soon take out excess population.

We should enhance this 'did it admirably well,' aspect of future attempts, and work very hard indeed, to remove any possibility of 'f***** it up, mostly in the service of financial interests.' — universeness

Yeah, I already wrote that story. It's a story.

We had a German Shepherd a long time ago, who had four pups. One of them died within the first day. We buried it, but she kept digging it up and bringing it to my mother, asking her to revive it. Saddest damn thing you ever saw! — Vera Mont

I wonder if that's what really happened between Jesus and his followers after he got killed? (if he ever existed.) Pity your mother did not have that 'power of god,' thing.
You jump to extreme's too fast Vera, you miss all the possibilities in-between the extreme states.
The human race is NOT DEAD YET!

Yeah, I already wrote that story. It's a story. — Vera Mont

Some stories are true! Especially ones we have yet to create!

The human race is NOT DEAD YET! — universeness

Of course not. But a great many other species are going extinct, faster every DAY!
Whatever is left of the human race, after the collapse, will struggle on somehow - how depends partly on which of our glorious enterprises brings on the apocalypse. Probably keep killing one another over the dregs of civilization, until there are few enough that they have no choice but co-operate or die. Then they will make do with what's left, and survive - or not.

Whatever is left of the human race, after the collapse, will struggle on somehow - how depends partly on which of our glorious enterprises brings on the apocalypse. Probably keep killing one another over the dregs of civilization, until there are few enough that they have no choice but co-operate or die. Then they will make do with what's left, and survive - or not. — Vera Mont

Do you regularly have a beer or 20 with @180 Proof by any chance?
I will need to join you both at some point and cheer you both up! :lol:

Do you regularly have a beer or 20 with 180 Proof by any chance? — universeness

No, I usually have it alone - unless you count Madam Secretary.
Anyway, it's hard to drink through an N95 mask disguised as a parrot's beak. (But it makes little children in the supermarket giggle.) And I'm cheerful most of the time. I've done regretting my species - just enjoying what's left of my life.

I'm an absurdist bluesman (i.e. cheerful pessimist) – sláinte! Drink up, folks, 'cause its always later than you think. :party:

Do you think human scientists are able to design a 'not for profit,' global irrigation system that works and fully benefits and assists the planets ecosystem and all flora and fauna, that exists on and in the planet (including humans)? — universeness

It sure it would be nice if we were willing to put as much effort into that as we have put into war. But the Trump administration’s peace plan totally disregarded Palestine's'need for water. Isreal had control of Palestine's water supply and was not giving Palestine enough water for their health needs, so Palestine has built distillation plants, and Isreal has pushed into the desperately needed land and water supply and built a community named after Trump to encroach on the little land Palestinians need for the water supply.

Have you looked into distillation efforts around the world? This is not normally a philosophical subject but it is a very serious one in today's world. It is not just about water but people's struggles for their lives and war! The US has been building enemies and I do not know how to address this philosophically but surely it is something we should address.

:cry: What we are doing in this world is so different from the possible reality some of us imagine. How do we deal with this? I would say most Americans are clueless about the Palestinian struggle for the land they remember owning, and they struggle for the enforcement of treaties just as Native Americans did when they were pushed into reservations. I got to take a deep breath. I wish we didn't open this Pandora's box about water.

You wrote of possible civilizations that did live in peace without war and that is only sane. War is complete insanity. We for sure have a God of war, David's God is a God of war. Whereas the Hindus have a mythology that supports peace not war. It begins with a terrible war and a determination to avoid that. Those of us with a God who has favorites and a claim to God-given land and war are not doing so well. The different mythologies result in different cultures.

I believe our democracy made the US a very loved nation and that we have gone about destroying that and making the world a less safe place because our schools stop transmitting the culture we had and education for the Military Industrial Complex of our enemy.

No, I usually have it alone - unless you count Madam Secretary.
Anyway, it's hard to drink through an N95 mask disguised as a parrot's beak. (But it makes little children in the supermarket giggle.) And I'm cheerful most of the time. I've done regretting my species - just enjoying what's left of my life. — Vera Mont

I am not sure I know what you are saying, but I woke feeling great physically and mentally great, and then the subject of desalination threw me into a terrible state of mind, making me think I can relate to "regretting my species". We have the ability to create Eden and instead, we are destroying our planet and escalating war.

The subject of this thread is culture and only when our culture for democracy is transmitted by education can we manifest it. The Military Industrial Complex and bankers should NOT have control of our education.

I agree that we have had much diluted versions of what might qualify for the governance label 'democracy' but none in history or now that satisfies the level of democracy we need, imo.

I don't refute your sources or what they say, I am just complaining, that what they called democratic, stretches the valid use of the label a little to far for me. — universeness

I have to get back to my happy feeling and I was feeling very happy when you disputed the good of Athens democracy. That triggered what I have read of more equal and peaceful civilizations. There were contemporary civilizations that were doing better when it comes to equality and peace. However, I think Athens' philosophers gave us great intellectual gifts such as mathematical proofs and a comprehensive system of logic. The concept of atoms and evolution have proven useful. The notion that because we can learn and we think we are capable of self-government is essential to our way of life and it is not compatible with religions. Help me here.

What are the fundamental beliefs that make our lives good? I am still working on having a better understanding of Hinduism. But it kind of fell off the track with its reincarnation reasoning that justified a caste system However, I don't think the Hindu caste system is worse than the class systems of Christian Europe. A modern understanding of the effect of different parenting methods and the difference in resources and the effect of trauma on children is superior to religious notions, but we still rely more on religion than science when it comes to what we believe about human nature.

We need a better belief system. Any idea of how to construct that?

The human race is NOT DEAD YET! — universeness

I really need that positive kick in the butt because I got so bummed out when looking into the water situation and getting sidetracked by what Israel is doing. I hate Israel and the Christian support of it at the expense of Palestinians.

We need to reach into our imaginations and imagine a better reality and how we might achieve it. Buddhism focuses on compassion and that is so important but it is not the answer. I like Confuseousism but Confurseous was a chauvinist and that is not acceptable. Science without education in ethics and morality is not the final answer either.

I have given thought to the end of life as we know it and what might we preserve for an unknown future that may once again raise a civilization. What do we want that future race to know so they have the best chance of manifesting a good life for our planet?

I am not sure I know what you are saying, — Athena

I was just saying that realism doesn't prevent me feeling good - old bones permitting - or blind me to the good in the world.

I woke feeling great physically and mentally great, and then the subject of desalination threw me into a terrible state of mind, making me think I can relate to "regretting my species". We have the ability to create Eden and instead, we are destroying our planet and escalating war. — Athena

Here you go!

The United States has made remarkable progress over the last two years toward a future where every home is powered by clean energy. Thanks in part to historic federal investments, we’re on a path to use more clean electricity sources than ever before—including wind, solar, nuclear, and geothermal energy—which would reduce household costs, cut pollution, and diversify our energy supply so we’re not dependent on any one thing.https://www.gatesnotes.com/Transmission

Yet most desalination professionals will know it’s not the largest and it raises the question of well, with over 20,000 desalination plants contracted around the world, which are the largest? https://www.aquatechtrade.com/news/desalination/worlds-largest-desalination-plants

At the center of Eden Reforestation Projects is our relationships with local communities. We work alongside them to produce, plant, and protect tens of millions of trees every month, thereby creating jobs to support them in restoring their local environment and economy long-term. https://www.edenprojects.org/our-work

As to culture, when we support the good works and good people, we automatically promote intelligent action, creative thinking and democracy. The young don't just learn from textbooks - and they're way ahead of us in a global culture of co-operation.

These activists are part of a long history in America, stretching back as far back as the 1830s (and likely beyond), of youth challenging and transforming our democracy. Here is a look at some of those movements.https://www.kcet.org/shows/city-rising/youth-activism-in-america-from-armbands-and-walkouts-to-bus-rides-and-voter-drives-that-would-shape-our-democracy

It is not just about water but people's struggles for their lives and war! — Athena

This seems to be a very obvious truth but the truths that apply most widely are often the most obvious, even though they remain a 'struggle' for most humans alive today. Sure, it's not JUST about water, but its ALSO about water. The biggest truth about culturalism is that it does not affect your need for water, food, shelter, warmth, etc. All people from all cultures have identical basic needs.
In fact, those basics are needed by all fauna on the planet.
People mostly war over basic resources. But the nefarious want to be 'EXCESSIVELY RICH,' in resources. They don't want a little gold, they want to be surrounded by gold and be recognised as 'god like' and have every whim serviced and own an excessive glut of all resources and have every urge satisfied and be loved and feared by everyone, etc etc. It's either YOUR WAY or there will be HELL TO PAY!

Have you looked into distillation efforts around the world? — Athena

Somewhat, but what is more important, is the basic understanding that Planet Earth has plenty of water. The rest is just bad behaviour.

What we are doing in this world is so different from the possible reality some of us imagine. How do we deal with this? — Athena

Another obvious but absolutely great, vital question. MY HONEST answer is to do EXACTLY what we are doing now, 'keep fighting the good fight to make things better.'

You wrote of possible civilizations that did live in peace without war and that is only sane. War is complete insanity. — Athena

War is the survival of the fittest strategy that was an imperative under jungle rules, but we discovered that it's not the only way to survive. We discovered that co-operation and negotiation, CAN produce better results for all stakeholders. But the nefarious want INSTANT gratification and permanent recognition of their superiority under the traditional jungle rules. We continue to struggle against them and I think we have been gaining ground against them for the past 10,000 years.
The progress has been very slow and it will probably continue to be so, but imo, success is inevitable.

What are the fundamental beliefs that make our lives good? — Athena

What do we want that future race to know so they have the best chance of manifesting a good life for our planet? — Athena

We need a better belief system. Any idea of how to construct that? — Athena

I think these questions are for each of us to answer individually. I can give you the core of my answers.
Socialism and secular humanism and the details involved in them would make up the core of my answer to all 3 questions above. I have not came across any better labels for what I think would be a 'better way' for humans to live and treat each other.

War is the survival of the fittest strategy that was an imperative under jungle rules, but we discovered that it's not the only way to survive. We discovered that co-operation and negotiation, CAN produce better results for all stakeholders. — universeness

Stop trashing 'jungle rules' - they worked for 300,000,000 years before we bulldozed the jungles. We didn't discover co-operation; social animals predate us by a wide margin

A new study by paleontologists indicates that the earliest evidence of mammal social behavior goes back to the Age of Dinosaurs. The multituberculate Filikomys primaevus engaged in multi-generational, group-nesting and burrowing behavior, and possibly lived in colonies, some 75.5 million years ago. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/11/201102120055.htm

And the most notoriously co-operative behaviour is one of the oldest and most successful.