You are sure able to type your thoughts. Are you denying that?

Nice example. The word and the meaning are separate parts of the idea. — noAxioms

So you agree that the idea exists as an irreducible mental event?

The properties of the coin include it's monetary value. But this is not a properties of it's parts.

Reductionism defeated. — Banno

If you are talking about ideas, then I have to say that they are forms of strong emergence. I have discussed this here.

I was wondering if anyone would bring some wisdom skepticism to the table. Is wisdom merely difficult to define, or does it, perhaps, not exist? — Tom Storm

Given that we know what we mean by instinct and logical thinking, therefore, I think it is proper to say that intuition refers to the fact that our guesses are mostly right. That is a unique phenomenon by itself! It is difficult for me that understand how we could possibly intuit, but it is real, at least from my own personal observation. Having said all these, accepting that intuition also exists, maybe we can define wisdom as a state of mind when your guesses are always right. Other than that, I don't see any extra room for anything else at all.

I know what instinct and logical thinking are. Intuition, in philosophy, is defined as the power of obtaining knowledge that cannot be acquired either by inference or observation, by reason or experience. From my own experience, sometimes my intuition was right and sometimes wrong, so to me, this definition of intuition is problematic. I have no idea what wisdom may refer to at all.

Correct! :wink:

It is a first-person phenomenon, so-called experience, that anything with the ability to experience knows what it is like to have such a certain experience rather than other experiences, given what you are, where you are, etc.

You certainly experience, don't you? Are you a materialist?

Do you consider that to be evidence that the cup idea is irreducible? — noAxioms

Yes, to me and many others here, the idea of a cup is irreducible. Have you ever been in a condition in which you want to write something, while you don't remember the word that is needed for your writing, but you know what word you are looking for? In such cases, you simply have access to the idea that the word refers to, but not the word.

Yes, in the context of physicalism.

That a coin is worth ten cents has nothing to do with it's composition. — Banno

I am not talking about currency but a coin.

It does not emerge from some combination of the material properties of the coin, but consists in the way the coin is used. — Banno

As I mentioned, the shape of the coin is a function of the position of the parts.

Yes, but I mentioned brains without activity in the sentence directly before. An example suggesting the plausibility that a flatlined brain can still be responsive to external stimuli. — Apustimelogist

I think the brain is responsive to external stimuli until its cells die to a certain extent. We are, however, talking about a case of NDE in which the person does not have any brain activity.

I mean you could give an explanation for this that is completely physical; a physicalist would explain spiritual experiences from psychedelics completely physically too. — Apustimelogist

And what is the physical explanation for NDE?

The problem here imo is presupposing dualism and presupposing some fundamental ontological divide between what happens when we perceive and have experiences, and everything else we know about. I don't believe we need to make this presupposition. — Apustimelogist

We need them. Experience is an accepted phenomenon in the domain of materialism. Materialists claim that matter also exists and behaves according to the laws of physics. Materialism also claims that matter does not have any experience in most forms, but in the brain. They claim that experience is the result of neural processes in the brain. We are dealing with a kind of strong emergence, as experience is something more than just neural processes in the brain. Granting that such an emergence is possible, we are still dealing with a problem. To demonstrate the problem, we need to note that the experience cannot be causally efficacious in the world for two reasons, as I demonstrated in my former post to you, yet we observe that there is a correlation between our experiences and how we change reality in the form that pleases us.

He told me about a patient with no brain activity while she had an NDE. This is his thread. I am just giving my opinion here. That is why I said, "Please ask him".

Thanks for the supporting materials!

Sia - My Love



Sia - Breathe Me

Being a ten cent coin isn't an emergent property... — Banno

A coin is a weak emergence since its property/shape is a function of the properties/positions of its parts.

...maybe not. — Banno

They for sure exist, and they are the only ones.

I don't think NDE experiences themselves are necessarily problematic in themselves regarding physicalism; studies of dying brains show there is a lot of activity just before death. — Apustimelogist

According to my discussion with @Sam26, the person does not show brain activity during NDE. So, at least in this case, we are not talking about brain activity near death.

What would need more explaining is the claim that people have accurate knowledge about events that are happening. — Apustimelogist

And we also have this spiritual experience, which seems common among NDEs. Why do such people have such an intense experience, which is common when they are dying or are basically dead?

Ofcourse, in order to study this you would want to be able to validate the claim that people can have genuine knowledge of things happening externally during NDEs that are not just lucky guesses or confabulation or other things that would not indicate genuine knowledge. — Apustimelogist

Well, the question is, what is the right model of reality when it comes to NDEs and normal life? Physicalism fails to explain the strong emergence of experience. Experience cannot be causally efficacious in the physical world, considering the fact that the physical world is causally closed. Moreover, experience is only a mental event, so it cannot affect the physical world since it does not have any physical properties to affect the physical world.

For the record, I don't consider any such case to be real - a flat EEG reading isn't a sufficient measurement for defining brain death. — sime

I am not an expert in this field, so let's see the opinion of @Sam26 on this matter.

But if such cases were real in some sense of having intersubjective confirmation of anomalous phenomena, then it would at most imply a hole in our current physical theories, resulting in a new physical theory with regards to an extended notion of the body with additional senses, coupled with a new definition of personhood. — sime

I think if NDEs are proven to be correct, then to have a better model, you need to add other substances into consideration, including the mind.

How do you/we know NDE-subjects "experience" anything while there is zero brain activity? — 180 Proof

Ask @Sam26 please. I am not an expert in NDE, but he told me an example of the NDE in which the patient showed no brain activity.

C'mon ... — 180 Proof

Do you have an explanation for NDE within materialism? The brain does not show any activity, yet the person experiences!

Even if NDEs were veridical, that wouldn't be enough to challenge physicalism or mind-brain equivalence. — sime

If we agree that one case of NDE was real, then we are dealing with an anomaly that materialism cannot describe. I am wondering how you could explain the NDE experience when there is no brain activity.

We say that we have a system when there are at least two irreducible entities, each entity has at least a set of properties.

The Black Keys - Sister

According to my discussion with @Sam26, there is at least one case of NDE in which the person exhibited no brain activity. Therefore, materialism fails when it comes to describing experience. I must say that one case of NDE is enough to warrant discarding materialism when it comes to experience.

Eddie Vedder - Can't Keep

Sara James - Lovely



Billie Eilish, Khalid - lovely

OMG! Only 287 views since 10 years ago. That is a crime! :wink:

David Bowie - Ziggy Stardust



David Bowie - Modern Love

I like that!

Nickelback - How You Remind Me

Deep Purple - Smoke On The Water

I am schizophrenic too. I, however, think that my subconscious mind could also deceive me, giving me false hallucinations. I am not denying spirituality either. It could be real.

An objection to Trinity: God/mind to me is defined as an irreducible substance with the ability to experience, freely decide, and create. Such a God experiences His Knowledge. He can create the universe as well. Therefore, the tree substance/Trinity is unnecessary.

So, you like that all these materials are discussed in a single thread?

1) Then why are you seemingly asking me to think of something without making a mental representation? — noAxioms

No, I am not asking that. I am asking you to think of a "cup" without making an image of it that has a shape.

2) I deny your assertion that an idea is irreductible. Your inability to reduce it to smaller parts is not shared by me. — noAxioms

You need to do what I said above.

I wish your book gets good attention!

Pour Some Sugar On Me

I am old and have mental issues. Like many people my age, I often struggle to think of the word I want to say. I also use a walker. For me, telling me I can not use AI is like telling me I can not use my walker. — Athena

I am not that old, but I have a memory problem. I have a very limited vocabulary, yet I am able to communicate with people. I don't use AI such as ChatGPT. I don't need it, and it does not help me when it comes to creating a new idea!

I do wonder what 'substance' is in itself and wonder how MoK defines this. — Jack Cummins

By substance, I mean something that objectively exists, opposite to what subjectively exists, so-called experience.

You need many affirmations to tell a theory is correct. One negation, however, tells that the theory is incorrect.