[qoute]
I was saying that those on either side who argue that it is the end of things if what they want does not happen are not helping the debate or the discussions. I think they don't know this will be the case, in either the short or the long term. They are speculating,and wildly, but presenting it is as if it is a clear and obvious rational conclusion. [/quote]
Oh, I see, thanks for clarifying. Yes, I agree. The problem from where I'm standing is that the majority of the electorate who voted and will vote if there is another referendum don't ever find out what the real issues are, what reality will be like. All they hear is the popularised slogans on each side.

I follow the media quite closely and I'm struggling to get down to the facts and realities. A case in point is the BBC, the one news organisation one can rely on. Or so I thought, but they rarely point out the implications of the events they report on, they just give a simplified gloss of the events of the day. They do have some more indeapth analysis, but you have to watch news night, or politics live to get it, which the majority of the population don't do.

I am beginning to have doubts about their impartiality, or at least their editorial decisions. They appear to be falling for the anti Corbyn, anti labour rhetoric and giving to much credence to the hard right dogma. While relentlessly attempting to analyse the minutiae of the internal politics of the Labour Party and continuously failing to call out the Tory bluster about the political psycho drama and undemocratic power struggles within the Tory party and with their corporate supporters.

How the UK economy develops is more dependent on how the Global economy goes, but likely there will be an urge to blame / praise Brexit depending on the political stance of the commentator. So if the economy doesn't collapse, Boris will praise the decision and so on. Hardly anyone will admit the obvious that Brexit IS NOT the most important thing that decides if the UK will be in a recession or not. Nope, with or without Brexit, it's a globalized World.

This was my opinion shortly after the referendum result ( although the leave narrative at that time was one in which we would have the "exact same benefits" etc). However as time has gone by the magnitude of what it means to leave the EU has started to become evident.

This morning Johnson has been saying that there will be lots of support for all the farmers, small and medium sized businesses, drug supplies, even heavy industry, I expect the next thing he's going to say is that he will prop up/ bribe the car plants, who are all saying they will move to Southern Europe(where there is a large desperate workforce, just waiting to pick up the pieces) following a no deal Brexit. All this while spending all the money that has been planned for to be borrowed( this morning stated at £2.1 billion) to mitigate the chaos, at the ports and for customs.

So he will have to borrow an unknown amount to do this while the £ is plummeting, our credit rating is down graded, our international reputation is trashed, no one who we are expecting to agree trade deals with will trust a word we say, especially with our current administration, which, if you listen to the media has lost touch with reality. Just listen to the words coming out of Johnson's mouth.

I meant in the poltical sense. I don't think it helps the debate, the discussion of political outcomes, the weighing of options, the understanding the situation when either say predicts the end of the UK if they do or don't Brexit.

I don't really understand what you're saying. The Hard Brexiters (our government), say that we have a great future, one in which we are set free of the shackles of over regulation and protectionism. They point out that we will be free to make our own trade deals ( ye haa! )

I've just found out that you can download a podcast.

Sorry for the delay, I listen on DAB radio, so don't know how it works online. Essentially the majority of callers on that programme thought it quite likely that Scotland would leave the union with a no deal Brexit. The bit about Gibraltar was scary.

The show should be good this morning following the leadership debate last night

Yes, it is available online, or on Global Player app. Just google LBC UK. The pundit is James Obrian, 10.00-1.00 UK times Monday to Friday. He is a philosopher, so cuts the crap quite well.

Hi there, I share your pain. I'm listening to a great radio pundit on a phone in radio show, who has been asking for sometime, for someone to ring in and point about a benefit of leaving the EU and none has been forthcoming, a few people have tried, but it turns out they have been mislead and haven't questioned the assertion they have been sold.

Theresa May is speaking in Scotland right now warning of the split up of the Union in the case of a no deal Brexit. While having spent the last three years ignoring any Scottish representatives, and telling them to shut up and get lost. The hypocrisy.

"Britain will survive either way. That many on both sides couch it and so binary and end of Britain if the wrong choice is made isn't helping anybody."

I'm not here to help anyone, I'm here to discuss politics.

By the way, do you think Scotland will leave UK if there is a no deal Brexit? I'm listening to an interesting discussion on LBC about this at the moment.

Hi, I've been away for a while, what better way to get back into the forum than venting some Brexit frustration. "They"(the erg) are stuck in the 1960/70's, and seem to view Britain as if it needs saving again, like when Maggie "saved" us. To them Corbyn is a Marxist who will turn Britain into Venezuela, alongside the threat of a European super state controlled by the Germans, which we will inexorably become sucked into. They have pretty much seen their dreams of Britain once again independent on the high seas, with the world as its oyster, fade into impossibilities. And so in desperation to save us at the last minute, they will commit Harikari, and take the rest of us down with them.

I understand and agree with what you're saying in respect of cities, although from my perspective, it is specific to the US. Here in the U.K. The situation is quite different, every city can be reached within a day's travel. Certainly in the southern half of England, all the main cities are within a couple of hours, or so, travelling time from each other and many people live in the countryside between cities and commute into town. Indeed this is the trend for the more affluent, many cities are populated with people living in relative poverty, crammed into small houses, flats, council estates, where there is an air of hostility, dirt, lack of social infrastructure, sink estates etc. The cities and large towns are compact and restricted for space, as there are green belts around most urban areas and a severe housing and real estate crisis. Around each city are affluent commuter/dormitory towns and villages, in which any sense of community has been stripped out. With the indigenous/local population often swept out of the way and living in Council estates, or trailer parks, largely hidden from view. Country villages where everyone knows everyone else are rare and are mostly in the most provincial extremities of the country.
I think the situation on the ground is different in each country in the world due to geography and cultural development.

Quite, I use the analogy of tying the bull to the post in Zen Bhuddism,

Introductory books on Zen usually contain ten or six drawings called 'Ox-herding Pictures',
depicting a story of taming an unruly, wild bull. These were drawn by some Zen masters of old,
notably by Kaku-an and Jitoku of the twelfth century. The bull represents the mind and the
herdsman who tames the bull is the yogi, the person engaged in meditation.
It is significant that this simile of the taming of the bull goes back to very ancient times.
Discussing the import of the expression 'arannagato va rukkhamulagato va sunnagaragato va',
'gone to a forest or gone to the root of a tree or gone to an empty (quiet) house (room)',
occurring in the Satipatthana sutta, the Pali commentaries elaborate:
This bhikku's mind (i.e. the meditator's mind),/which was for a long time scattered among such
objects as visible forms (rupadisu arammanesu) does not like to enter into the path (street)
of a subject of meditation (kammatthana-vithi), but runs only into a wrong path like a chariot
yoked to an untamed (unruly) bull. Just as a herdsman, who desires to break in an untamed calf
grown up with all the milk it has drunk from the untamed (mother) cow, would remove it from
the cow, and having fixed a big post on a side would tie the .calf to it with a rope; and then
that calf of his, struggling this way and that, unable to run away, may sit down or lie down
close to the post; in the same way, this bhikku (i.e. the meditator), who desires to tame the
villainous mind grown up as a result of drinking for a long time of the pleasures of
sense-objects such as visible forms, and having gone to a forest or to the root of a tree or
an empty house, should tie it to the post of the object of the presence of mindfulness
(satipatthanarammanatthamba) by the rope of mindfulness (sati-yotta). Then the mind of his,
even after it has struggled this way and that, not finding the object previously indulged in,
unable to break the rope of mindfulness and to run away, sits down and lies down close to that
same object (of mindfulness) by way of neighbourhood concentration and attainment
concentration (upacarappanavasena).
Hence the ancients said:
Just as a man would tie to a post
A calf that should be tamed,
Even so here should one tie one's own mind
Tight to the object of mindfulness.

In this commentarial simile the herdsman fixes a post and ties the calf to it, whereas the
bull in the Zen pictures is tethered to a tree.
The two commentaries where this simile occurs are the Pali translations made by Buddhaghosa
Thera in the fifth century A.C. of the original Sinhala Commentaries which go back to the
third century B.C. The Ancients (porana), anonymous great masters, referred to in the passage
quoted above (and in numerous other places in the Pali Commentaries).

I know that feeling. Personally I like to value the mundane and the meek, with a big helping of humility. It makes it easy to avoid inflating the ego etc.

Are you practicing Yoga?

Can you give and example or explain what alternative criteria might be used?

The process of personal transfiguration. Such a process may require an uncoupling from interpersonal intellectual understanding provided by other people, in order to develop the mind of the individual in different ways.

But knowledge is justified...

How can astrology be justified? Beyond Jungian handwaving.

Perhaps the individual enquirer can achieve his/her own justification, for it to be accepted as knowledge, for themselves.

When I referred to an interest in such sources within spirituality, I took it for granted that alternative criteria may be considered.

Yes, fingers crossed on that one. I suspect we are going to see more and more outrage. Did you see Jeremy Corbyn's response to the budget on Wednesday? Gripping stuff. I refrained from linking to it here, but you can watch it by googling, Corbyns response to the budget YouTube, (it is about 23mins long).

You're a lot more vocal than usual. Somehow I doubt it will last.

Yeah, that's right, Simplisticus

I suggest you look in the mirror before reading books by the cover.

But how? Because folk think it pretty?

So as to access, knowledge, or knowing of nature, other than what is provided by current intellectual knowledge and teaching.

Have you noticed that throughout our history there is a cycle in which groups of people sieze power in some way and use this to accumulate and hoard wealth from the population. Then when it becomes out of hand the mob arrives at their door with pitch forks. The mob seizes back the power and wealth and the cycle then gradually repeats itself.

Now that we are in a global capitalist system, the cycle seems to be happening again. Can we somehow defuse the situation, or are we going to have to grab the pitch forks?

Haven't you noticed the boilerplate Marxism I've been peddling?

l thought you were just facing facts.

↪Punshhh I'm interested in why you think that, and how you have looked into it.

Have you read much on Astronomy? Or on Astrology?

Sorry for the delay, I have been on the road the last few days.

When I was young I looked into every philosophical system of thought I could find, astrology was one of them. After a while I became of the opinion that forms of divination are about people trying to find out something of interest, but out of reach. Such as what will happen in the future, or looking into a person's soul. This being the case, it is of little philosophical value, so I had pretty much put it, amongst others, behind me by the age of about 16.

This does not mean that there is no truth in it somewhere. When one looks into forms of spirituality, then traditional mythological, divination and religious systems can become interesting sources of wisdom or inspiration.

See? Bitter Crank gets it. Agustino, Thorongil, and Michael need to up their game.

I get it too, I already knew. The trickle down can so easily be syphoned off into tax havens when money becomes digital.

I will have to reply later, I've got things to do now.

@years ago I picked up one of those ‘sun sign’ books that has a page for each day and I have to say I was quite bowled over by what it said about me.

I’m not entirely dismissive of astrology, although I don’t pay attention to it.
7 minutes ago ReplyShareFlag

It is a means of divination, or as a mirror to the self. I also studied those books years ago and pay little attention to it now. However as I am focussing more and more on creativity, such systems are fertile grounds for creative inspiration. Another system of thought which I use is "modern art", the intellectual and conceptual appreciation of it.

I don't think that can be answered, with our current knowledge.

I didn't say they're a path to fulfilment, just a path that many people take, probably because it's easy, and not very painful upfront.

Sorry, it's my clumsy choice of words. Really I meant the perception of fulfilment in their eyes. A typical delusion experienced by addicts.

Anyway my original point was in reference to the privelidged in our current world. They are due to their privelidge already well tutored in how to conduct a life of leasure. Whereas the starving, or the "primitive" is not so prepared, hence the problems of addiction amongst indigenous populations when forced into a life of houses, clothes, supermarkets, TVs etc.

According to my date of birth, I'm supposed to be Libran, but I'm not so sure I really am a Libran.

You need to look at your whole horoscope, to get a more accurate reflection. Do you know what sign the moon was in(your rising sign), that will have a bearing. I'm Scorpio with the moon in Libra, so in notable ways I have Libran characteristics.

So the beer, and the drugs, are an alternative path of fulfilment, to the path of personal growth?

I am reminded of the problems with alcohol addiction among indigenous peoples, when they are "brought into the modern world".

Ok, so when most jobs are performed by robotics and software, what will people do, would they then be obsolete, or would they have to be creative and find something else to do?

Who, the starving, or the comfortably off, I wonder would make best use of a life of leasure, including the trappings of leasure, drugs included?

I agree, we in the west find comfort in and blindeness to our privelidge. Although as I said in our last interaction, we are going to have to get used to lives of leasure. Unless, of course, the world goes to the dogs.

The question is really as to whether nature is merely a brute existence or if intentionality (telos) is behind its workings. Empirically speaking we simply don't know, and I don't believe we ever can know by means of purely rational or empirical enquiry. There doesn't seem to be any imaginable way we could know by those means.
— John

On the other hand the subjective evidence for intentionality, human and otherwise, and causality, is individual experience; we may be utterly convinced by the evidence of our own experience. But our experience can never qualify as overwhelmingly convincing evidence for another person.

Mysticism can overcome both of these barriers through the study of orientation.

By example, imagine looking through a kaleidoscope, all the philosophical and mystical ideas are the, or cause the, symmetrical patterns observed. However through turning the lens part of the kaleidoscope, the philosophical and mystical ideas are re-aligned, the symmetry is altered. Resulting in the experience, understanding and development of the reorientation of the self.

In the first case, by a reorientation of the thinking, personal self with the hosting, or higher self.

In the second, a realisation by orientation of concepts that there are no two or more persons(in respect of humanity). In a real way, we are the same person/s.

Okay, I follow you, but I'm asking you about the metaphysics of it. How is it possible for a physical substance to consistently bring about a spiritual experience? Can matter determine/force such an experience upon one? And if so, then how is this possible?

Simply, the human being is a mechanism in which there is an interaction between mind and matter. One can influence the other, so naturally physical narcotics will influence the mind. Likewise notions of mind can influence physical materials.

As to how this is possible, it is a question of how such an interaction is possible. Well the initial observation is that there is in a person an apparatus which can host a mind, the brain. Provided a mind is able to inhabit that mechanism, then the interaction occurs.

Is causality that simple?

Causality is sometimes simple and sometimes convoluted. However when it's convoluted, when it's happening it may as well be simple.
My comments are more about the irony, or hipocrisy of the UK government regarding the arms deal with Saudi as sacrosanct. So as to provide the revenue to pay for the rapid response police squads to deal with the terrorists inspired by wahhabism and the like.

Also it's interesting how the airwaves are crammed with news reports about the terro attacks and what is going on in Syria, on the assumption that we are not culpable. While there is literally no mention of the carnage going on in The Yemen, using the arms we sold to the Saudis.

Yes, Al kaida bit back on 9:11, leading to a knee jerk reaction in invading Iraq. Then countries in the Middle East and Asia start falling like dominoes. Should we pull out now, or get sucked in further.

The Saudi issue is top news in the UK today, two days before the election. Particularly about what is going on in Yemen.

Yes, that was the fight against the Commies, I know about that and how it led to Al kaida etc etc.

But what is going on now?
Why did the U.S go into Iraq, no commies, or strategic oil there?
Did this light the fuse in the Middle East and since then it's been a fire fighting exercise?

If so, or whatever else is going on, does the cozying up with Saudi leave us with egg on our face?

And Trumps response

My vote would only be relevant if the Conservatives end up winning by 1 vote. ;)
17 hours ago

Yes that might be accurate mathematically but on the ground, it's more of a group activity. For example a politician might say something at the last minute (which might be irrelevant to the political situation) which weirdly results in lots of voters deciding that their vote is a wasted vote and then not going out to vote. Also you don't know what other voters are thinking, as a group they might be swaying this way and that, like the weather. If you don't vote the pool of voters is reduced which if reduced beyond a certain point might result in a revolution and a dictator installed. Also you might say something in the pub which sways a group of people to vote differently. Indeed in this thread you might have changed the political weather already.

if Michael is in a safe seat of another party, his vote would be an irrelevance.