When did I ever mock your qualifications??? — Artemis

I explain that by it not being a controlled study and just your observational anecdote. — Artemis

Reasonable, but spending 5 years teaching them gave me a lot of insight. I probably knew them better than any of the researchers knew their subjects. — Sir2u

Seems to me odd to insist your five years of observing a couple of twins are worth more in information than the research I've presented. Seems more like you just don't like the results because they don't jive with your position. — Artemis

Apart from your name, "Artemis", exactly what contact have you had with twins? That is why I asked if you have any professional qualifications. It seems odd to me that some should be so insistent that they are right without being able to do more that point to an article(that has lots of counter opinions) as qualification of their point of view.

The self-evident part was in reference to the mechanism twin studies are supposed to to suggest similarities arise. It seemed/still seems odd to me that you wouldn't realize the mechanism is genetic makeup. — Artemis

Just because something is "supposed to " do something does not make it "self-evident" that it actually does.

The article you quote doesn't really contradict my position. It just suggests that nurture is also a factor (remember that under "nurture" falls all environmental influences an individual encounters). — Artemis

I have never contradicted your point of view either, all I said was that I was not sure how much of one or the other actually makes you what you are. The article I linked explained quite clearly that the difference between the twins were likely caused by difference in the environment causing changed to the DNA. Which would mean that while genetics plays a big part, genetics is affected by the environments in which the people live.

Twin studies have shown that even adopted into different families, people with the exact same genes have similar life outcomes and life satisfaction rates: — Artemis

It's why you can have on one hand people with all sorts of problems and issues pull off amazing feats overcoming their circumstances, and then other really objectively fortunate people just fall into despair and throw their lives away. There's some kind of internal drive that some people have and others lack that makes the difference.

For those people, I think there needs to be something, somewhere they can turn to. — Artemis

First you say that genes are the principal controller of behavior but you think that they might need guidance when their behavior changes. Are there not genes that make people predisposed to those changes? Or are the changes caused by environment overriding the genes? So would joining a church group be make it possible to change what is genetic?

Science still does not know it all, so how can you say that it is obvious?

In Islam, the idea is that we proclaim our religiosity on grounds of our fitrah, i.e. our natural predisposition. — alcontali

And if the people are not naturally predisposed they beat the hell out of them until they are.
How can a human being be naturally predisposed to be wrapped up in a hot bag in a place known for its high temperatures? How can a human being be naturally predisposed to be sub-servant to another just because of their gender. How can human beings be naturally predisposed to never want an education. How can a human being be naturally predisposed to be poor all of their lives.

Has anyone asked the people what they want? Of course not, because they know that some people that are not scared of being beaten for disobedience will tell the truth. The rest will say what they are supposed to because of the fear of the powers that be. And no really believes that it is the politicians forcing the religion to do these, it is the religions that rule the governments.

That's Ma'am2U, thank you very much. — Artemis

My apologizes madame. Not everyone here uses there real gender in their name and avatar.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jun/02/twins-identical-genes-different-health-study

The study you provided a link to was about separated at birth identical twins. Here is one about identical twins that grew up together and have very different personalities. Which according to your "It's not self-evident to you theory" should be impossible. Here is a relevant quote from it.

Such a divergence might seem odd. After all, as identical twins, the pair have exactly the same genes. They are clones of each other. They also had an upbringing that accentuated their similarities. Nature and nurture would appear to have dealt them identical hands. Yet Barbara and Christine have ended up as dissimilar individuals.

Nor are they unusual, says Professor Tim Spector, head of twin research at King's College, London. Barbara and Christine, who enlisted with the college's twin studies unit several years ago, are like many identical twins. In some ways, they are very, very alike, in looks, for example. But in other ways, they are noticeably dissimilar – and that is far harder to explain. "We see it in so many different ways," says Spector. "For example, our research has shown that twins rarely die of the same disease. Yet they share many other features, such as height. It is not a straightforward business."
Sign up for Lab Notes - the Guardian's weekly science update
Read more

It sounds baffling. After all, identical twins have the same genes, share the same womb and usually experience the same childhoods. "Most of the twins recruited to our study went to the same school and lived together, eating the same food for the first 18 or so years of their lives," says Spector, whose pioneering study celebrates its 21st birthday next month. "But the outcomes of their lives are often very different indeed."

I usually make it a habit to try and read various points of view, hence my "but no real explanation of why" comment.

Critique the argument as is, or don't. But don't start these juvenile snarks about my qualifications or expertise. — Artemis

That seems to imply that there is a double standard of some sort operating in your thinking process. You are allowed to mock my qualifications, but I am not allowed to even ask about yours. Why is that?

That's not just bad philosophy, it's bad interpersonal skills. — Artemis

Practice what you preach.

I remember when I read these years ago(many). Maybe they had some effect on me. :smile:

By leading a congregation of believers in prayer, the imam is simply too visible and too much of a public figure. That is why you could get him into serious trouble by asking him to honestly answer sensitive questions. In fact, many will simply try to avoid giving an answer. At the same time, the overwhelming majority of ulema (=scholars) are not public figures. They are not an easy target for intimidation attempts and therefore it is much easier for them to say what they want. — alcontali

Is this what the perfect society looks like?

The god of these people lets their servants, the rulers of their nations, be tyrants over their brother believers. Sounds just like the other religions to me.

I explain that by it not being a controlled study and just your observational anecdote. — Artemis

Reasonable, but spending 5 years teaching them gave me a lot of insight. I probably knew them better than any of the researchers knew their subjects.

Leave the snark. — Artemis

Not being snarky, that is your perception of what I said.

As I've repeatedly said, nurture is a factor. It's just not as great of one as you seem to assume. — Artemis

So you have read a few articles that say something like that and you are suddenly an expert. Tell me sir, what are your personal qualifications in the area of genetics? How many years have you been studying the topic.

And where exactly did I state how much of a factor I think nurture is?

It's not self-evident to you? — Artemis

No.

Your brain structure is determined by your genes, your brain structure determines your personality, your personality is the key to everything that is in your power to find happiness. — Artemis

I am a teacher, and have had the luck to have taught seven different pairs of identical twins and several fraternal twins that have never been separated. Only one of the sets had similar, not identical personalities. How do you explain that?

If you knew anything about brain structure you would know that it changes during your life. The changes are based on many things that happen to you, your diet and the amount of exercise you do can influence the development of the brain. So no, it is not all genetic. If that were so then they would always look identical as well.
https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/science/bioscience/10-things-that-change-your-brain/

I agree for organized clergy. They are as much under control of the corporate oligarchy as for example doctors. So, yes, beware of mouthpieces of the powers that be. — alcontali

The role of an imam, who leads the congregation in worship at a mosque, is very public and very visible, and therefore often under quite a bit of political pressure. He can often not speak freely without risking reprisals from secular authorities. Therefore, it is preferable not to burden an imam at the mosque with jurisprudential questions but to direct such questions to independent scholars ("mufti"), who are much less visible, and who can syntactically derive written advisories from scripture much more freely. — alcontali

So the imans are mouthpieces of the powers that be? He can only say what the government lets him.

Nurture is a factor, but probably not as great of one as people like to think. Twin studies have shown that even adopted into different families, people with the exact same genes have similar life outcomes and life satisfaction rates: — Artemis

Yes the twin studies are fascinating I have read quite a few over the years. But is it really possible for a person to be genetically programmed to wear the same sweaters, have the same type of dog, marry a person with the same name or looks? There are lots of examples of twins being so alike even after being brought up in different countries, but no real explanation of why.

One of the articles I read years ago looked at the tastes in food of the twins. It was found that those that lived in different parts of the world from each other often had favorite dishes that while not containing the same ingredients the chemical content was very similar in a lot of the cases. They came to the conclusion that there was a strong possibility that the bodies being Identical had the same needs and that was probably the reason why they like the same food. The report mentioned a case were two older brothers went to visit each other and found a new favorite food, that of their brother. I never looked for the second part of that report, after they had done the experiments and research they had planned, it should be interesting.

A 1986 study that was part of the larger Minnesota study found that genetics plays a larger role on personality than previously thought. Environment affected personality when twins were raised apart, but not when they were raised together, the study suggested.

Other studies found a strong genetic influence on dental or gum health. That research helped to show that gum disease isn't just caused by bacteria, it also has a genetic component, Segal said.

Another study found that happiness and well-being had a 50 percent genetic influence.

Gum health is easier to understand, identical bodies would have the same resistance or propensity to germs and viruses.

Happiness and well being are not that easy. It seems silly to think of people having or not having happiness genes, or more or less of them. It would make more sense to say that because they are healthier, they live a happier life. But life is not just about health is it? Would it be possible to have a gene that makes you less worried about everyday problems such as bills and work? Or do you just learn to live with it. :chin:

For example, North American society advocates taking out interest-carrying student loans. In Islamic morality, that amounts to encouraging bad behaviour. — alcontali

In what way is it counted as bad behavior? I don't see the bad part of getting an education by paying for it. In the islamic countries, do they pay for the people to get the education they want or do the people that have no money nor loans lose out on education?

Muslim scholars have extended the example of coitus interruptus, by analogy, to declaring permissible other forms of contraception, subject to three conditions.[25]
(1) As offspring are the right of both the husband and the wife, the birth control method should be used with both parties' consent.
(2) The method should not cause permanent sterility.[25]
(3) The method should not otherwise harm the body. — Wikipedia on birth control in Islam

The other religions are good at adapting, twisting or corrupting the holy words to suit their benefits. Does it not seem contradictory that these people are saying that children are the gifts of the god, but you are allowed to be impolite and reject the gift.

The term "marriage" in Islam refers to a contractual arrangement with the terms and conditions as specified in Islamic law. Signing up to T&C that are materially different from the ones specified by Islamic law can rarely be justified. The believer would need very, very good reasons to do that.For the believer, sex can only take place within the framework of legitimacy specified by Islamic law. — alcontali

So why are there so many cases of sex out of wedlock. If, as you said, looking after the body is of prime importance to islam, how could something as basic as sex be considered bad?

If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things. — Quran 4:34-35

The same question applies here as with the other gods, if he is so great why cannot he fix the causes of the problems so that they do not happen. If he made women and they are dis-obedient, why did he just make them as servants that have no other use from the beginning.

There is no Church in Islam. Advice on matters of morality is best obtained from independent religious scholars ("mufti") in written form. It is perfectly ok and even recommended to go "mufti shopping" and compare advice from different scholars prior to reaching a conclusion on a jurisprudential matter. — alcontali

Lots of other people do that as well, shop around until they find a church, priest, pastor that suits their taste. But this also begs the same question as for the other religions; if the priest, pastor and mufti are all guided by allah or god, how could they possible give different advise?
And the whole world has seem how the people are treated by these people, people being beaten, flogged, and stoned to death.

For those people, I think there needs to be something, somewhere they can turn to. — Artemis

There are too many people who's lives clearly lack independent, internal meaning for that to be a major misconception. — Artemis

I think that the problem is more of a growing up thing than a hardwired problem. When I grew up we were told that you have to be responsible for yourself, that you have to learn and do whatever is needed to be able to get ahead in life. And we were taught that we do not get ahead by stepping on others to do so.
More and more parents are abdicating their duties and letting the internet and forcing the teachers to do the up-bring of their kids. Who knows what tomorrows kids will be like or how they are going to survive.

Personally I think that people today are being trained to be useless so that big brother can take over.

Atheists need to find meaning in a meaningless universe, so sometimes it helps to have an institution to represent all that. — Artemis

I have never needed to find a meaning to life, because I have always known it.
People tend to over dramatize such things and insist that humans are different from other animals and therefore must have a purpose for living, all the while overlooking the obvious.

The only purpose in life is to live it to its fullest. To get as much as possible out of it while you can.
go places, meet people, eat different food and drink new wines, learn as much as you can about as many things as you can.
To sum it up, experience as many things as is possible and try to be happy while making as many others happy as is possible. I have no intentions of waiting for the next life to start enjoying myself when i can do it perfectly well here and now.

Modern society is very much at odds with religion. It advocates behaviour that is contrary to religion. — alcontali

I doubt that any society advocates bad behavior, they do permit it though.

If modern society says one thing and religion says another on the morality of behaviour, then you can safely assume that religion is right while modern society is depraved, wrong, and even dangerous. — alcontali

So the church when the church says that you cannot use birth control because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?

So the church when the church says that you cannot have sex outside of marriage(even though they do) because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?

So the church when the church says that you cannot separate from your spouse that is beating you because it is not beneficial for mankind and therefore incorrect behavior I should believe them?

Don't think so.

All institutions of modern society are now totally corrupt: public-school indoctrination camp, mass media, politics, medicine, organized clergy, workplaces, corporations, and so on. — alcontali

Does the "and so on" include churches and religions? Don't answer, it was a rhetorical question.

Do you seriously think that this is a problem that has just popped up in the last few years? The only difference between today and 2 thousand years ago is the technology that helps to spread the ideas.

They all advocate horrible depravities. They cannot be trusted in any way. — alcontali

Could you give us some examples of this? I still cannot get my head around this advocating depravities thing. I have not heard anything about the college of medicine in any country advocating any depravities. But maybe we different definitions of depravities.

In my opinion, concerning morality, all other sources besides religious scriptures are entirely corrupt and depraved. So, yes, amidst this cesspool of corruption, you need the scriptures as a reminder about the truth on morality. — alcontali

But if the leaders of the religions do not practice what they preach, why should anyone follow their lead.

But given the state of our planet, with overconsumption of resources especially our food, and we are limited in our abilities to manufacture it on our farms, combined with climate change, too many children is God's curse on us and he delights in our suffering! — Michael Lee

But the holy brothers keep on getting the holy sisters pregnant, because that is what a god said they should does. Most of the atheist I know don't have more than one or two kids, how many catholic families can you say that about. Most other religions still believe it is the place of the woman to stay at home raising they kids. Luckily the women seem to be getting smarter and are refusing to accept this status in life.

So it would appear, but she sure has balls.

It is similar to avoiding the death penalty on earth by not overly misbehaving. How many people end up on death row each year? Not that many either. — alcontali

Death row and religion of any sort should not be mixed up like that.

The point I'm trying to make is that people can act in a "religious" or "fanatical" way about things even if they aren't traditionally what is defined or perceived as a "religion". — IvoryBlackBishop

Religious,
Concerned with sacred matters, religion or the church
Having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity
Of or relating to clergy bound by monastic vows
Extremely scrupulous and conscientious

Fanatical
Marked by excessive enthusiasm for and intense devotion to a cause or idea

Dingo already said the first part of my answer.

Trump supporters or other rabid follower of any group or person are nor generally counted as religious, fanatical and rabid yes, but not religious.

I guess that the first red pill to take concerning "a good education" is Aaron Clarey's notorious book "Worthless". — alcontali

Does education mean only going to school? I am a teacher and even I know that most schools and universities are as useless a hell at preparing kids for their future. Education to me means being prepared for life, not going to school.

The meta red pill is to understand that almost everything you believe is a manipulative and deceptive lie that does not serve your own interests but the ones of the corporate oligarchy. — alcontali

Does this apply to religions as well? I guess it must because most religions are nothing more than money making corporations.

Even the evil, anti-biological, crappy food -- worthless calories -- that you buy from Walmart is purposely designed to make you sick. Without expensive corporate health insurance you are not supposed to survive for too long the onslaught on your body of worthless processed food surreptitiously laced with sickening high-fructose corn syrup. — alcontali

I live in a backward, third world country, so this does not really apply too much yet.

According to Rollo Tomassi, somehow still a Catholic, it is the Church that has become the worst scam of all: — alcontali

I agree, but that is about the religion, the church, not about the people. Just like every other religion there are good and bad people in it. As a muslim you should understand that the bad part of the religion is the one that out shines all of the good that exists in it.

The core red-pill message is:
All of society's institutions are now highly corrupt and try to manipulate you with their deceptive lies. If you don't fight back, you will simply start believing these lies and become very unhappy, if these dangerous lies do not kill end up killing you first. — alcontali

Why do I or my kids need a religion to tell me what are lies and what is truth?

alcontali is a Muslim and I am a believer in Christ. We get along just fine. — Noah Te Stroete

I am an atheist and I work in a catholic school. :gasp: I have friends that are mormons, jehovas witnesses, hindu, and even a witch. And I get along with everyone.

As I said, I don't give a shit about religion. As long as the person is nice and does not try to convince me they are right.

Can I choose any religion for me & my children? — EricH

Sorry mate, but for them to be happy you have to sign up with theirs. :cool:

My kids will believe that they can make it out of their predicament. They will have faith. — alcontali

My kids will believe that they can make it out of their predicament. Because they will have an education

The future looks bright because God takes care of us. That is why their plans will succeed. — alcontali

The future looks bright because they know how to take care of themselves. That is why their plans will succeed.

That is why it is worth struggling and fighting no matter how difficult things may become. Things will work out just fine. Do your part and God will take care of the rest. — alcontali

That is why it is worth struggling and fighting to get a good education no matter how difficult things may become. Things will work out just fine. Do your part and you will be capable of taking care whatever comes your way.

Why is your way of saying things better than mine? Why would anyone want to risk their well being on something that has no evidence of existence?

As an example, if you want to use a stereotypical "rabid Trump supporter" as an example, they may not literally believe Trump is a "God", however they may refuse to say anything negative about him whatsoever, and treat any criticism even if constructive as a 'personal attack' or insult.

(The same may be true of rabid 'supporters' of any person, cause, idea, but I'm using Trump as this example). — IvoryBlackBishop

What the hell has this got to do with what I said? I have no idea what the connection is!

So by "faith", It has to involve belief specifically in a "God"?

Belief in any other prime truth or axiom held to be absolute doesn't qualify? — IvoryBlackBishop

Did you not read what I wrote?

I said that I used faith in a specific context in which it has a specific definition. The rest of the definitions of faith have their places and uses, but not in the context I used it.

As far as "faith", that's another term that often never gets consistently defined — IvoryBlackBishop

Some definitions are fixed by the context in which they are used. A scientist might have faith that a cure for cancer will be found, but that is not the context in which I used it.

I agree, my argument is just that it's a modern example of people acting or thinking in quasi-"religious" way. — IvoryBlackBishop

Nothing even quasi religious about it. Worship and faith, large parts of religion, are totally absent.

Or as far as modern example, "scientism" is probably the most popular. — IvoryBlackBishop

Scientism is neither a religion nor a system of government, it is a way of thinking and living.

I don't agree with that assessment but to each their own. — IvoryBlackBishop

But please tell me where I am wrong.

Are you an anarchist? — IvoryBlackBishop

:lol: :rofl: :cry: I am I don't give a shitist.

What is your ideal form of government. — IvoryBlackBishop

I really cannot say that any of the world's governments and political systems really attract me. Most of them are screwed up versions of what they proclaim to be.

I am a dreamer and I believe that a good system would be one that provides people with what they have earned and deserve. But that does not exist and probably never will.

That's a tricky subject, however I would contest that modern systems of law and government are predicated on certain "religious" or moral axioms, such as the golden rule, and that religious systems played a role in the development of modern ones. — IvoryBlackBishop

It would make more sense to say that religions sprang from men trying to impose laws upon others and failing. So they started to say(invent) that there was a higher power that they represented to scare the people into following the rules.

Tricky subject, but I assume you mean the Justices aren't held to be "infallible" or have a "god-appointed status", akin to a medieval pope or monarch? — IvoryBlackBishop

Why is everything a "tricky subject"? Yes I mean just that. Bosses and leaders have been around a lot longer that religions based on an unseen, all knowing, all powerful god.

However, in a way, that is similar to the law of any modern nation, such as the Common Law in America or Britain, which does impose a bare minimum of morality on people by force, based on its own moral axioms (e.x. that acts such as rape or murder are inherently "immoral", and that society or the state therefore has a right to use force to prevent or punish those crimes, for example). — IvoryBlackBishop

But you don't see people worshiping the Supreme Court, or treating the judges as priests. And you have the right to defend you actions that is given to you by those same laws.
Whereas religions say you are wrong and that is the end of it, you have to grovel to the unseen high and mighty just because another human that says that he is the voice of the high and mighty tells you to.

This is turning into more of an anti-religion rant — IvoryBlackBishop

I am not ranting against religion, I am inquiring about the things you say. I have nothing against religion itself, my wife is religious.

less of a discussion about the finer details — IvoryBlackBishop

The finer details of what? To be able to say that religions have been and are useful then there should be some proof of that, what good has religion done for humanity?

While I certainly do not believe God, as described in sacred texts, exists, I certainly do believe Spinoza's imperfect description of God is. But my question is, since God could not care less about our well being nor will change the nature of the Universe to suit our desires, then is there any value engaging in religious thought and reflection? — Michael Lee

The answer to the question is a simple no, why bother.

I'd assume that credible business do provide some measure of financial accountability — IvoryBlackBishop

If we are talking about religion, I don't see how those 2 words are being used.
What exactly is the business of religion?
And just how can any of the western religions be called credible?

Almost all of the "churches" belonging to the religions have some stigma attached to them. Maybe some of the individual buildings in general have not been smeared by unholy priests and pastors, but the churches have been corrupt for centuries.

Every business has to make a profit, — IvoryBlackBishop

Religion as a business, that is new! Not really.

so if this is just a discussion about greed or using religion as a money-making tool, I'd prefer not to go there. — IvoryBlackBishop

As far as I know there is no discussion about it, nearly all religions take their believers money and have no responsibility to explain where it goes. And that is a truth that does not need to be discussed.

I've seen more and more churches broadcasting on social media as of late. — IvoryBlackBishop

And most of them have Apps to do their most important work. Collect the money.

You cannot reasonably expect two atheists to believe the same things. — alcontali

That is the insidious part of it. Atheists do believe things about morality but they may not even know themselves what exactly they believe, especially, given the subtle manipulations from the public-school indoctrination system, the mass media, the commercial advertisements, and so on. — alcontali

That is so much shit I do not even know where to start putting you straight. It is obvious that you read to much religious based literature and probable do not even know a non believer.

As an atheist you may still be able to reproduce but your progeny is pretty much scheduled to die out. So, you are probably just wasting your time. — alcontali

My kids all know how to look after themselves and do not need to go groveling to some unknown being begging for help. When the shit hits the fan my kids will survive while yours are down on their knees trying to get divine intervention on their behalf. And it won't get them anywhere.

You can clearly notice that unbelievers are gradually but surely losing the ability to form families and to reproduce, which is something that the old adage already had predicted : children are a gift from God. — alcontali

I am a non believer, and I have no problems reproducing!

Children in a lot of cases, even for believers, are a miscalculation of time of month. Most believers, especially the most fanatical, cannot say that they have planned to have children. They say that they just come because god sends then.

Did S change his name to Frank somewhere along the line? :chin:

Generally speaking, by "giving up" I mean, the rejection of commonly held values that guide Western economically driven sociopolitical mechanisms of incentives and disincentives that shape or to some degree govern human behavior in those particular societies. — Wallows

That is one classy way to declare your hippy-ness. You should have come out a long time again, you would have been happier.

The paltry quantity is offset by the superior quality. It is here most come for the final word on all topics. — Hanover

Yeah, OK. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Your response will be critical to the future success of this site. — Hanover

:rofl:

Haha, that was a sneaky way to get the last word! :up:

You will win the prize eventual.

OOOPPss, I did it again. :blush:

It would be nice to have someone like him around.

Do you think Plato would work?

https://www.amazon.com/Plato-Googleplex-Philosophy-Wont-Away/dp/B00JBEM1TO

https://www.amazon.com/Plato-Platypus-Aristotle-Aardvark-Washington/dp/B00ATGR6AC