Sorry to interject, but are you still getting psychological help?

You mentioned it earlier in the thread, and judging by what I am reading you are in need of professional guidance. — Tzeentch

I am, I went through quite a few psychologists and psychiatrists and have times I don't care about some "reason to stay alive" and times I desperately need one. There are times that my mind tells me i'm doing irrational thing by staying alive, and I don't really know why. So there's my search for a reason to stay alive that would work for me. I really don't want to kill myself, don't want to hurt people around me, but still need some sort of purpose in life.

I'd steer clear of a forum like this if you are sensitive to certain philosophies. Philosophy is maybe a part of the answer, but probably not in the stage you seem to be in right now. I'd sooner view some of the people here an actual hazard to your health. — Tzeentch

Probably a good idea, I'll try to limit my time here and generally with philosophy and see.

To summarize and maybe do my last post in this thread, not to spam it, I would say:

That this all started some 10 years ago, when I got a bit into philosophy. I came across antinatalism and it kinda shocked me. I mean from time to time I always had thoughts, what's it like to never be born (I know it makes no sense, but still) and there were these authors arguing it's better not to be born, like for example David Benatar.

I thought to myself, how can on one hand you claim that life is bad, not worth being born into this world etc., but on the other hand consciously make decision to stay alive in this "bad" world.

Then I said to myself, okay so I've been fucked, being born here, but there's nothing I can do about it. Killing myself won't change that fact, it will only cause pain and suffering to my friends and family.

So I became something like a personal antinatalist, have no interest in preaching antinatalism nor do I want an antinatalist outcome. About 6 months ago I came across an article I linked earlier "Better to Return Whence We Came" which comes to a conclusion that "... Benatar’s anti-natalism gets us to pro-mortalism..." "...Benatar's position makes ceasing to exist the best option..." "...To conclude, if Benatar is right about the human predicament, it is better for us to return whence we came...".

And I'm back to my old suicidal self - because antinatalism equals suicide? I really don't know.

Besides, killing oneself is a gamble, not a guarantee (or even ascertainable likelihood) that not existing will be better than existing, or that death will end your suffering or despair or interminable boredom. — 180 Proof

How so? I genuinely would like to know more.

are the most irrational part of my thinking patterns. — Moliere

There's a difference for me, I guess. These thoughts come across (or at least i feel like that) as the most rational ones to me.

That's probably because you don't want to die. — Vera Mont

I don't want to die either. I just need a rational or any reason (maybe even irrational) to live that would really work for me.

I really don't want this thread to be about some sort of self-help. I just can't get the idea of 'It’s always better to cease to exist' out of my head. What if the author of that paper is right? What if the most rational, logical thing to do is, in fact, suicide? (I'm not saying it is, just the "What if" lingers in my mind). If it is not, what should my 'reason' to live be? Why should I live, and how should I live?

Why is suicide (assuming you're healthy) irrational? I don’t know why my mind keeps thinking there’s no real reason to live. Maybe it stems from my ethics? - which I found out could be considered negative utilitarianism. It also means I don’t want to cause suffering to others, but I can't seem to ease my own suffering.

I’ve read many discussions here and came across this response by @180 Proof:

No. Acute depression (due to XYZ) or unbearable, interminable pain or both will lead some to commit suicide. The switch does not flip itself. Pessimism, however, is simply a rationalization (à la hypochondria) for coping with ineluctable frustrations (i.e., facticity).

Or is suicide just a permanent solution to a temporary problem? If yes, how so?

Is depression or pain really what leads to suicide? Does the switch really not flip itself?

Stop reading the philosophical shit that pulls you in this direction. — jgill

I stopped and no longer do. Somehow I just can't get the headline of the cited article out of my own head - Why is it always better to cease to exist.

Like there is no possible life to live.

I certainly don't want to kill myself - just trying to find a way to live my life and find my own way (which would work) of doing it.

Is there really nothing you could change to reduce your suffering? Have you explored all the options? — Vera Mont

I don’t really know. I’ve tried CBT with and without meds (like 10 different meds so far), I’ve seen a total of 5 psychologists and now with a 3rd psychiatrist. I’ve spent endless time discussing my problems with my close family - they said that they don’t understand how I can think this way, and repeating my problems seems to annoy a lot of them.

I (guess and hope) that people who don’t suffer, don’t want to die.

I just can’t get over these ideas and opinions posted by the above mentioned authors. You don't like suffering - well then, die. It's like even when you somewhat enjoy life, but are a pessimist, the only rational thing even then is suicide. I don't know, sounds f-ed up.

And I lack some sort of reason or motivation to endure the suffering.

Why don't you answer him schopenhauer1? — universeness

He did respond in the other thread about antinatalism:

It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.
— Cioran

Meaning, suicide is an impossible wish of undoing the suffering that has already occurred. What we really want is to never have suffered in the first place. Annihilation after the fact doesn’t negate this. — schopenhauer1

And actually, that's how I live, or at least I've tried to achieve this mindstate. I'm already born and cannot change that fact. Also, I don't want to increase the amount of suffering (to my family, friends...) - so suicide, whether or not you're an antinanalist, is (should be?) morally wrong.

Next thing I come across an article posted in my previous post where antinatalist and 2 non-antinatalists come to the conclusion that if you see life as suffering and are an antinatalist, it is reasonable to end life.

So I'm back to my confusion about suicide.

I'm reposting part of my question from another thread here, since it was one of the questions that "started" this thread. I still cannot answer myself - why (and how) should an antinatalist live?

https://unherd.com/2023/04/we-need-to-talk-about-extreme-antinatalism/

I came across this article, and the following is an excerpt from the linked article:

... Jiwoon Hwang, Rafe McGregor, and Ema Sullivan-Bissett (last two are not antinatalists) have all persuasively argued that promortalism is the core of antinatalism. ... For all three individuals, if you accept that life is suffering, it is reasonable not only to want to cease the propagation of life but to end life. Sullivan-Bissett and McGregor offer the analogy of smoking — if you think smoking causes harm, you don’t only think people shouldn’t start smoking. You believe that people should stop if they already smoke ...

This is a paper by Jiwoon Hwang (an antinatalist) arguing it's always better to cease to exist
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3184600

So, is there really no reason for an antinatalist to live?

Thank you all for your replies and advice. I'm sure some of you find these posts tiresome, maybe some of the members think this is trolling (which it is not).

As time goes by, I've tried - tried to find some sort of "meaning" in this existence. To at least find a reason to go on (whether rational or irrational - or just whatever reason would work for me). However every argument I have leads towards suicide, and I can't find at least one solid argument to stay alive - as a materialist, pessimist, antinatalist...

The work of Jiwoon Hwang which I posted earlier, keeps occupying my mind - is he right? Is it always better to cease to exist?

https://unherd.com/2023/04/we-need-to-talk-about-extreme-antinatalism/

Excerpt from the above linked article:

... Jiwoon Hwang, Rafe McGregor, and Ema Sullivan-Bissett have all persuasively argued that promortalism is the core of antinatalism. ... For all three individuals, if you accept that life is suffering, it is reasonable not only to want to cease the propagation of life but to end life. Sullivan-Bissett and McGregor offer the analogy of smoking — if you think smoking causes harm, you don’t only think people shouldn’t start smoking. You believe that people should stop if they already smoke ...

So is there really no reason for an antinatalist to live?

There must be something that gives you pleasure. — jgill

Sure, there are many things....but with sour taste of total meaninglessness and the thought that whatever I do is pointless - because staying alive is irrational.

But now I see what they mean when they say ignorance is bliss.

Why not? If all you do is endure life (a rather whiny thing for someone in the conditions you describe to say), then maybe you are just a waste of oxygen, after all. But causing grief and loss and guilt to your family and friends is reprehensible. If you're planning to end your life for lack of some abstruse idea, you should at least discharge all obligations, make all required provisions and detach from all personal ties.
Having done that, consider again. Sometimes new-found freedom provides a reason for living. — Vera Mont

The only reason I am alive now is that I don't want to hurt people around me. However, my mind keeps telling me there is no rational reason to live. I wake up in the morning, and all through the day, I feel that by living, I am doing an irrational thing. It's as if only the programmed survival drive is keeping me alive, but the whole day feels like a living hell, and the only thing bringing some peace is sleep. The articles about the rationality of suicide I posted in my response are constantly on my mind, and I can't seem to find any rational reason to stay alive.

How awful is your own life compared to the above scenario? — Nils Loc

I don't know what your material situation is — Vera Mont

Well, the thing is, I should be having the time of my life. Compared to the lives of most people, mine would be an easier one. I have a job, enough money, friends, family, and am physically healthy...

But I struggle to see why suicide isn’t the most rational thing one can do. If there’s no 'objective meaning,' if there’s no 'afterlife,' why endure life? Why postpone death? Even if my life was filled with endless joy until the end, why go on?

I guess I don’t have a compelling reason for myself that would work and make me believe that extending my life for as long as possible is worth it.

I'm not afraid of death. I am well aware that the process of dying might be painful; hence, suicide is perhaps not an easy decision to make (thing to do).

I'm just contemplating the rationality of living.

Is it rational to live, considering that I will eventually die anyway, so why postpone it? Moreover, by dying sooner, I can potentially avoid future suffering.

As I said, I mostly identify as an antinatalist but struggle to justify why, as an antinatalist, I should go on living. This question constantly goes through my mind: if life is so bad, why endure it? If, for instance, one agrees with Benatar's antinatalism, then why is suicide not a reasonable response? Because that's what I perceive as a rational reaction to this standpoint. (links below)

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10790-022-09888-4

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3184600
author argues it's better to cease to exist, and in fact committed suicide

So I don't really know how to answer this question for myself - why suicide or why not?

Well I did and still do, but with no help… really nobody understands my thinking or why I think this way.

But talking philosophically - what are the reasons to reject promortalism? That is the question always on my mind

Some months have gone by, and I still feel haunted by my thoughts, thinking the only reason I continue to live (for now) is the fear of death. That seems like a pretty bad reason to live.

When I talk to people around me about these thoughts and feelings, I feel like an outsider. Nobody truly understands it, or understands why I think about life this way. I would say that almost everyone around me thinks life is worth living, enjoys it for the most part, pursues careers, travels, has children...and to me, it all seems empty and pointless.

I won't deny that I've experienced peaceful and enjoyable days in my life - the problem is when I face intense suffering, and I can't find a rational reason to keep going and endure it.

Searching forums, Quora, Reddit further confuses and depresses me - opinions about the rationality or irrationality of suicide vary, and I can't make up my own mind.

I've browsed discussions about suicide here on TPF as well, mostly discussing suicide as an irrational act, but I just don't see it that way for myself.

Why is suicide considered irrational in most cases? Why is choosing to keep on living seen as rational?

Am I just lying to myself, convincing myself that life is worth it so I won't have to go through suicide?

My mind keeps convincing me that the most rational thing one can do is, in fact, commit suicide.

Over the years, I've mostly identified with philosophical pessimism and antinatalism, which may also shape my worldview. It's just that I cannot identify with anything else. And the fact that there are pessimists who have committed suicide also makes me wonder if that is a logical conclusion to this philosophy.

I feel like I need some sort of meaning, a reason to keep going, but I can't seem to find one and instead obsess over the feeling that the only reason for this search is the fear of death and the complex act of suicide.

TL, DR - I feel that living or continuing to live is an irrational choice, that by living, I am doing something irrational. There are only two options - to live or to die - is suicide, even for 'healthy' and 'sane' people, irrational?"

thanks for the reply.

I guess what I’m most struggling with is with answering to myself (ideally rationally) why not suicide (e.g. Mainlander)? What is the rational reason not to commit suicide and live, and after answering this question (and being convinced by the answer) then I can decide what to do with the remainder of my life. But without answering the first question (to be or not to be), there in any case, can’t be the second one.

Just stumbled upon this thread (and few others of niki wonoto) and I can say that I go through the same feelings…

I often go through whole day constantly thinking that everything I do and whole life is pointless. I lack reason to go on living, real reason that would persuade me that even though things are (now) bad, I should endure it.

I know that most people in threads say that suicide is irrational, permanent solution to temporary problem etc… but why? Why or how (as a pessimist) should one live? Why not suicide (like Mainlander for example, was he just in addition to being pessimist also depressed?)?

Yes I’m well aware that my suicide would cause a lot of suffering, but only reason to live is for the sake of others? My mind is convincing me everyday that staying alive is irrational, just plain wrong and only response to this life - is death. As of by living i’m doing the wrong thing. Is the only reason I’m alive programmed fear of death?

It’s been something like 8 years of living like this, trying therapy (4 different therapists) and plethora of antidepressants and nothing brought some sort of peace of mind or convince me it’s somewhat worth to live.

And honestly, when it comes to my life situation, it’s really not that bad - I’m young (32), I have close family, close friends, place to live, food to eat, not worried about money, ok job, plenty of opportunities to do things… It just all seems empty, futile, meaningless…only at peace when I drift into sleep.

Life is pointless, meaningless… whatever you wanna call it, I get that. I know that “happy” people don’t care that it´s like that, but that seems like living in some kind of delusion, because even then life is pointless, you just don’t care.

I don’t know, maybe it´s just treatment resistant depression.

So I guess, if anyone went through something like this, what did you do? What should I do?

and where can it be done?

also why not suicide? and what is the way to live for an atheist, if not hedonism?

or can I be suicidal and not depressed? just seeing world as what it is and choosing suicide as a rational response?

hmm do I understand correctly? If I find life meaningless and futile and there’s really nothing wrong with the person (physically or mentally), they should kill themselves because there’s nothing to live for….

Or is it mental disorder making people suicidal and thinking about so called meaninglessless of life, but really there is no problem with that, but instead you are either suffering from mental disorder or just your life sucks (maybe because some of your needs are not met)?

I don’t think I ever considered myself anti-life, but lately I don’t know… How do I find meaning in meaningless universe?

How to answer question to be or not to be? Problem with suicide for me is that you can’t change your mind after… but now I’m overwhelmed with feelings and thoughts that there is no reason to go on (although I’m no entirely convinced by one option or another…)

Well, I would say that I have quite a lot of things I enjoy, but at the end of the day I still question myself whether it´s all worth it. I love my family, friends, have an interesting job, enough money, love long walks, driving, cooking, coffee….but still there’s something at the back of my head saying - is it enough?

Also I do think that preferring “nothingness” is a stupid concept, because for me there’s nothing after death, no “you” to “enjoy” the preferred nothingness :roll: . For now suicide seems irrational.

So therefore the question why go on or better yet how to go on, what to strive for? (I mean it still could be just symptoms of depression, but who knows :confused: )

Well I’m in my early thirties, and i’m really looking for a compelling reason/argument to live (and how to live) that would at least work for me. Suicide has been on my mind for a quite some time, but I really don’t want to cause suffering to people around me. That’s why the search for a reason to live or argument why not suicide.

but let's say until my death life will be filled with nothing but joy and good times... then I still die, so what was the point :/?
I can take medication to make me feel good, to make me stop thinking about these things, then also die.

So what's the rational reason to go on living?

I'm really confused what to do..don't want to seem desperate, but I don't see a reason (now) why I should go on. It just makes sense - life will end in death so let's get it over with. Please provide your opinions why this is/isn't true for you.

From what I have read I do feel that suicide is irrational in most cases, just I'm not convinced.

I think that for me the reason why I don't want to go through it is family and friends, don't want to cause them suffering.
Just don't know how to battle my thoughts.

Any input is greatly appreciated and I know that this is probably not the place to post this, just I'm in need of help.

so is suicide thing to do,rational? (because life ends in death) or should I seek treatment for suicidal ideations and wait for death to come by itself? I really need a reason to see what to do :/

Past three days I've been feeling more suicidal than ever. The irony is, that because I stared feeling better I decided to finally go on vacation and enjoy it. Now I'm four days on vacation, should be enjoying free time and fun, and I'm feeling worst feelings I have ever felt.

I keep reminding myself in my head that suicide is irrational thing to do, but somehow I just don't believe it (even though I want to). How can I convince myself that I should go on? How can I finally start thinking with my own head and not become more depressed everytime I read through threads here that deal with topic of suicide (especially ones that try to convince you that life is meaningless, you're going to die anyway so why wait just kill yourself and be over with it).

I feel like I need to resolve this internal conflict that is inside me - I enjoy many things in life, find them satisfying - on the other hand these threads here convince me it is meaningless and it is not enough to continue my life.

These are exactly threads that make me confused. I deal with thoughts of Why go on living? and everytime I decide there's no point not to go on, here comes along thread that makes me insecure and again gets me in endless cycle of thinking about rationality/irrationality of continuing my life... Seems like I don't believe myself or just need a definite reason what to do and just can't find one.

I have been dealing with thought like why life? why continue? why not suicide? for a long time, and that's when I discovered the old PF forum and then this new one. I know that my problems are probably not philosophical, but I found many threads dealing with these issues on these forums.

I read through many posts and read so much advice what to do.

I was suicidal and really didn't know what to do.

I started seeing a psychiatrist and now I'm on medication, because I felt I needed some help. Also I visit a psychologist every week and deal with these issues in talk therapy. Maybe since March I started feeling better even back to my normal self.

But past two weeks, again I started feeling even worse. It started I guess when Chester Bennington committed suicide. I was questiong myself Why would he do it? He had wife, kids, money career etc., and still he did. Then I was like why should then I go on?

Last week close member of my family got diagnosed with cancer. In my head I was confused, I guess depressed and started feeling suicidal again.

That's when I came back here to read through some of the advice I got. I see that there are many threads here that deal with somewhat the same things that I go trough now. People dealing wiht similiar ideas and reasons why to go on. Of course I had to go through those threads and found myself confused even more.

I feel like I'm in a dream and can't wake up.

Deep down I don't want to hurt myself, because I don't want hurt anyone around me, but don't know how to battle these thoughts.

As for my regular day, I still go out, meet friends, play sports, have a great job and people around me. It feels like it just isn't enough. I guess some of you are getting really tired of posts like this, maybe giving the same advice over and over again.

If you think maybe there's some more advice you can give, I'll be glad. I guess that's why I post here. Maybe to talk to someone who went through something similiar or to read what to do.

My long term goal is to achieve mindstate that goes something like - Well I was born, I am alive, so I should live and wait for the death to come by itself.

To really see suicide as something irrational and out of the question. To maybe have some motivation to do something while I'm here, because right know in my head I believe the opposite. This internal conflict of what to do is just bothering my while I do any activity through the day.

Anyways any more advice is greatly appreciated.

There's no "why" to going on living. You go on living because you are alive, simple. That's not a reason for it, simply how things are. — Agustino

but how can I achieve this mindstate? I want to believe this. What I really want is to be able to accept that I am here and just live life. Deep inside I don't want to hurt myself, my family and friends, but also I am extremely suicidal and don't know what to do.

but why go on living? what is the rational reason? I just don't see one. Why isn't suicide rational response? If life is full of suffering why continue? I am afraid I won't escape these feelings of anxiety, panic, depression abd suicidal ideation. I don't see what could happen for it to change. The proble is life, not the problems in it. My mind somehow isn't capable of accepting statements that philosophical pessimism offers.

Ok so I tried to do something about my feelings, after consulting my psychiatrist, I stopped taking medication I was prescribed after assessing that it didn’t help and he suggested that I should try different one plus I visit my psychologist every week. I’m now four weeks on no medication, going to see my psychiatrist next week.
Past month was again, one week feeling well, next week feeling like shit, obsessed with suicidal thoughts. Days i feel the worst are the ones that my head tries to resolve my internal conflict - i want to live and enjoy many things, but this feeling is constantly opposed in my head with philosophical pessimism (how can you enjoy life when it is hell? etc.)
Is it depression thats causing suicidal thoughts or I just can’t cope with living?
Or is it just really depression and treating depression right way will make me feel better?
Since it’s been over 2 year of feeling this way, I really don’t know if it can really get better.

Cause and effect could be hard to discern here, were you stuck with a certain inkling which made you turn to philosophy and was it the philosophy which made a possible natural inclination worse? — Gooseone

Well, I was never really into philosophy, I was researching something completely different and found out about pessimism and antinatalism. After reading more about these things I became extremely depressed, suicidal - these theories were the opposite of my view of life. I wouldn't say that I was a optimist back then, but I viewed life as something worth living, I enjoyed many aspects of it (in fact I still do enjoy many things, but thoughts of pessimism just ruin it for me). Pessimists consider everyone else deluded about life, because their view is the most accurate. Life is suffering. So am I deluded about life, that I don't view it this way? I myself don't subscribe to philosophical pessimism, but maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is the truth.

Also I don't see the logic between saying life is suffering and continuing to live. If there's so much suffering in the world, why go on? Or is it just the depression talking?

Been living with this in my head for two years now and don't know what to do.

Maybe it is all just the depression talking, but some days are really unbearable and only thing I want to do is sleep.

You seem to be of the opinion that life is bad and not worth continuing and that the aid you are getting now does not alleviate your view on things — Gooseone

I didn't consider life good or bad. I just accepted it and tried to enjoy it as much as possible. According to pessimists life is bad, ugly place not worth continuing. This is what I deal in my head all day, this conflict what I feel about life and what pessimist say about life.

About depression... I have some questions.
For the past 2 years I just don't feel good, and it started when I started philosophy.
Learning about philosophical pessimism made me seriously depressed. I just don't know if I just continue living or just end it all. I see psychologist and psychiatrist, but none of it seems to help. If life is so bad, why continue living?
So the question is, am I experiencing clinical depression or am I depressed about nature of life and just can't deal with it? My mood elevates day to day, one day I feel good, next day suicidal. Not sure what to do next.