Rather I saw it as a system set up to drain wealth from the population into the coffers of the elite. — Punshhh

I see a system set up to create asset inflation, which then creates huge wealth inequality. And that has been policy. This should be obvious from the fact that when we have a global depression, the S&P 500 is at an all time high now.

The bourgeoisie ARE the elites. — Pfhorrest

The who live in the borough, craftsmen, artisans, merchants and other urban dwellers aren't the elite. Today small business owners, mid-level managers, lawyers working in small partnerships, pharmacists and doctors with a private practice aren't the elite today.

Never heard of the Petite bourgeoisie?

Right-wing populism also positions the common people against the underclass or anyone who may threaten to displace their socioeconomic status, such as immigrants or minorities, and utilize ‘law & order’ to help suppress them. — praxis

That's how the left typically portrays the right, quite like the classical view of the bourgeoisie as a willing partner of the elite in suppressing the lower classes, especially the working class. The view has roots in traditional leftist thinking. Yet in societies people rarely displace others, which is an odd thing to happen when you think of it. If economic hardships make a society less prosperous, many indeed can fall into poverty, but it's not that someone has then displaced them. The rare occasion happens if a country invades and conquers another country with the objective to annex and assimilate the conquered people or to simply make them be second class citizens in their previously own country. Displacement and suppression are then quite real.

Anti-immigration and nativism are quite often on the agenda of the populists, however I think the main reason is now days more about transfer payments and income distribution, then fears of crime etc. Few might fear immigrants taking their jobs or corporations using cheaper foreign labor. However I think it's better to view as a separate agenda as not only populists can have those opinions.

Trump just got endorsed by stalwart champions of fairness and justice, the Taliban. — Baden

Well, it would be nice that the war in Afghanistan would finally end. A nation having war for over 40 years is extremely depressing.

Last February the U.S. signed a conditional peace agreement with the Taliban, so there's that. Knowing Republicans, it's far easier for Trump to seek a peace & withdraw the troops than later for a Biden administration do the same thing. If only his administration would be capable of taking the deal to the end.

The idea that the US has to be in Afghanistan because otherwise the country might become a safe haven terrorists planning strikes against the US is far more delirious than the domino-theory was as the reason for the Vietnam war.

But a populism based on fairness and justice is able to distinguish between law-enforcement proper and abuse of power. One is worthy of admiration while the other of scorn. Consequently, one can be for law and order while being against the abuse of power. — NOS4A2

One should not confuse populism and something being popular (although populism is often popular). Populism seeks to divide people into two categories: "the elites" and "the common people" and that these are inherently against each other. A common definition would be: "a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups." Not much thought is given there being people between these groups and that the system might not be so polarized.

Hence notice populism is quite common also in the leftist narrative and the best example of successful leftist populism is Hugo Chavez and the "Bolivarian revolution" in Venezuela. The evil elite is just portrayed differently, as the classic right-wing imperialists, not as leftist liberals.

What I find typical for both leftist and right-wing populism is their lack of trust in the "prior" democratic institutions as both sides view them to have worked badly and the correct path is only when they get to power. Populism doesn't respect other voices as people are either on their side or against them.

Something that struck me as rather self-defeating nonsense...

Trump is supposed to be running on a law and order type of platform. At least, he loves to say the words. Here's the problem...

The FBI are law enforcement officers. — creativesoul

At first it doesn't seem to make any sense: how can the same person talk of being for a law and order platform and praising the law enforcers and then, instantly, when the topic is changed, talk about a deep state conspiracy against him by the same people. But populism doesn't go with the lines of ordinary logic.

A conspiracy theorist usually believes that there's an evil network of people working against ordinary people and the result is to replace these people with your own people, just as propaganda is fought against with your own propaganda. Populists typical believe in democracy only as long it works for them.

Contrast this with Cato the Younger’s conduct, who had the moral integrity to realize that Caesar was the true culprit and should be delivered to the tribes to purge away the violation of truce. Just as the Roman Caesar is to be condemned for his atrocities, so the Roman Cato is to be praised for his insight into who the true evil-doer was and for his fighting for democracy against the dictatorship of Caesar. — Tristan L

At least with these examples we don't judge people from a totally different era and World with the morals of the present, but see just what values have existed from centuries, if not a milennium. Still, it was the Cato the Elder that ended his speeches Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

More broadly, imperialism is by its very wist (nature, essence) very wrong and unrightwise (unjust) – in most cases –, for it involves one folk stealing another folk’s freedom and land. — Tristan L

Yet those cultures that have succeeded in their imperialism have been able to create advanced societies and have brought integration to the World, where trade routes have been safe also for thoughts and ideas to spread. Perhaps only from the 20th Century onwards we've seen true international collaboration take place and peaceful integration, like the EEC/EU happening. Unfortunately saying something positive about historical empires seems today as denying the negative sides.

Right! They are removing all the fun from vehicular mayhem. I'm really gonna miss the old chaos, but the new gods are calling for "safety for all". Right? — Merkwurdichliebe

I remember from the university a professor of economic history, that only had and bought cars that were older than mid-1970's. The reason was that in cars before that time he could repair everything himself, but after the mid-70's they start to have so much electronics that he could not do it himself.

If we extrapolate how things are now going, I assume doing anything else than fueling the car, filling windshield viper liquid and washing the car, the car manufacturer will sue you for "hacking" the car and making it unsafe for use. But they surely they will be more easy to use and correct your driving errors even more than now.

Yes, the dumbing down of the consumer by making things easy and automatic also benefits the manufacturer: just think about a car from the 1920's (or typical computer from 1980's). How many present car owners would be totally clueless and have extreme difficulties of starting and driving an antique car? Many actually would hurt themselves in the process as just to starting the thing or putting on the lights can end up in disaster.

If people don't believe me, just watch this instructional clip about driving the Model T Ford. 9 minutes:

It really is the coolest way to fly — Merkwurdichliebe

And then the evil car manufacturers in cahoots with the fascist governments will put airbags, collision avoidance systems and automatic rescue service call systems in your car. And that's just the reality now, tomorrow if you want to kill yourself by driving off a cliff, the car will perhaps drive automatically you to see a shrink. The horror, the horror...

The problem is most are not aware of everything that comes out of Trump’s mouth, and are basing everything on whatever crumbs the anti-Trump media lets them hear. — NOS4A2

I mainly try to judge any administration on what it actually does and how it deals the various issues and crises that it handle's. Even if a President or a Prime Minister is an important player, still he is part of the team that makes an administration and surely not an autocrat.

So for example, if Trump has always kissed Putin's ass in bizarre way (especially when they met here in Helsinki), it's obvious that the Trump administration was never influenced by the Kremlin in any way. Even now and especially with the Marine generals that Trump had around, obviously the course is kept steady, even if Trump sometimes makes gaffes like purposing a joint US-Russian task force to prevent cyber attacks. And I guess now they have learnt how to deal with Trump: never say anything against him publicly, perhaps only correct the most outrageous things that Trump just throws out there..as those are forgotten next month.

But I get it, for example Bush too was in his own way likeable for Republicans and Obama was a very good speaker. However it's the actual policies that count not the tweets or comments.

We could fall through war and feudalism to an early medieval level in which all our advanced technology is lost. — Punshhh

I wouldn't think this would happen, if you really think about it.

We still have to understand how fragile human society was in Antiquity starting from things how rare literacy was and how perilous crop failure and draughts could be. It's going to be really hard to assume that somehow people would be as illiterate as they were in Medieval Times. People wouldn't forget how to make modern firearms, even if there wouldn't be any stealth fighters couldn't be made anymore.

What surely can happen is that scientific progress halts and simply the technology we have now will stay the same and some things get rare that now are plentiful. What can happen is that if space exploration comes to a halt, then advanced knowledge can be lost when simply nobody is doing it anymore. It surely can be so that a computer now is similar to the computer 50 years forward to the future, but those future computers won't be similar to a Commodore 64 of the 1980's, which btw was the highest-selling single computer model of all time.

An internet cafe in Mogadishu, Somalia, 2012:

The eternal misrepresentation. — Benkei

At some point, things come to be a belief system and comparable to a religion. Trying to reason with others issues of faith isn't fruitful.

Sorry, but every time you guys wring your hands about the words coming out Trump’s mouth I know you have nothing. — NOS4A2

In a way, yes. Which actually tells precisely just how we ought to take everything coming out of Trump's mouth.

Or his tweets.

The ultimate way to persuade someone is to first understand where they are coming from, in other words, knowing something about their state of mind and the knowledge they already possess. Then, one has to create a link between that knowledge base and the idea you want to implant. An idea sits best in a mind if that mind can see how it links to existing ideas. Good teachers and effective salespeople do this. — Roy Davies

This is basically how also leadership works. First you have to know what those being lead think of the issue to be done, their own motivation and their own objectives (which naturally means you have to listen and understand them). Teaching and/or leadership should be changed based on the motivation of the people.

The real problem is that too often teaching or leadership training focuses on the best type scenario were those to be taught or those to be lead are already very motivated either to learn or do the task while the training rarely sidelines the worst case situation, where the individuals have absolutely no own incentive or will to do or to learn anything. And when there's no carrot in it for people, them not getting the stick is the only carrot you can give (and I hope nobody takes this too literally). Yet this simply isn't tolerated, as normally learning environments and leadership is viewed in a positive situation and the training should be positive, uplifting and motivational, basically the training is a statement itself.

Think on the positive side. The FBI still works well fighting against domestic terrorism.

The problem with this is that humanity is essentially biased. If everyone has different opinions, which one is the real one? — Gus Lamarch

Well, it is quite logical and understandable that history is taught from the viewpoint of domestic history, that people are interested in their own history, the part of history that has most effected you. The viewpoint, the chosen narrative and the bias isn't actually a problem when we simply understand that it exists. The bias really doesn't refute the fact that historical events did happen. Hence even in history you can make question that have definite yes / no answers. To the question "Was there a Roman Empire, yes or no?" you have either a true or a false answer, just as there is for the question "Is there a global pandemic happening right now?". Hence understanding there being a bias doesn't force us to embrace some post-modernist humbug of their not being that objective past. All isn't politics.

Historical events that we live through, just like the pandemic we are going through, are obviously things that we will remember and will be important for us. But so is history that we can relate to: the events that have had an impact and effected the life of the Lamarch-family, your parents and grandparents, is naturally relatable to you, Gus. And things that have happened a long time ago and that we don't have much knowledge of are 'pure history'. It might be interesting for us, but far more difficult to relate to and to understand. And once we even don't have much information and knowledge, then perhaps we have to be cautious about the biases we have.

The Battle of the Delta 1175 BCE depicting Egyptians fighting the mysterious Sea Peoples. And not much else is known...

When a nation loses its base of values ​​and absolute truths, most of the time, only with the introduction of new values ​​by third parties - in the case of the Western Roman Empire, the Germans, and in the case of the East, the Arabs - that purpose can be reached again. I do not deny that the freedom of the ecumenical world is wonderful, but it seems that on the grand scale of history, hegemony and order is the most successful path. — Gus Lamarch

A nation or empire losing it's values and absolute truths, which I would call losing faith in the nation, typically happens when the nation simply hits physical limitations and it's weakness is obvious, typically when you lose wars and lose the position that earlier the country has enjoyed.

Best example of a genuine ideological collapse resulting in losing all faith in the system is the collapse of the empire called the Soviet Union. There were no American tanks on the Red Square. The Afghan Mujahideen didn't destroy the whole Soviet Army. This was a collapse not only an economic collapse (which countries do often face), it was truly about the elite losing faith in the truths and in the ideology and the 'Manifest destiny' of the nation. Even the Putsch-leaders of 1991 didn't have much faith in their endeavor to save the Soviet Union as the armed forces were collapsing and generals and units starting to choose sides. And luckily for us, the leaders during that time did avoid a second Russian civil war, something similar to the Yugoslav Civil War yet happening in a far larger scale, which we now can easily see was very close from happening after the war in Ukraine (and events in Georgia, and from the war at this moment going on in Nagorno-Karabach).



Rome didn't go like that. I think the story of Rome would have a more fitting end with Ottomans not even finding the body of emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos from the walls of Constantinople in 1453, than with a little known political figure as Romulus Augustus being deposed. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Besides, reaching an age of nearly 1500 years is quite an achievement for any nation.

One of the biggest differences between the West and nations like Persia, was the situation in which one fell to the Islamic invasions - Sassanid Empire - completely, and the other resisted for more than 600 years - in the case of the Roman Empire -. — Gus Lamarch

This is actually a very good example why in order to understand history it's important to focus on more than just one narrative. Perhaps what we lack in our history education still is to say while meanwhile... and just pick the focus and the narrative we like.

The rise of Islam happened at the perfect time, when the Roman Empire (or the Byzantinians to us) just had with Emperor Heraclius finally delivered a crushing blow to Sassanid Empire only then to be also in a weak state to suffer a defeat to the Arabs and lose the crucial Nile valley, which basically was the only reason that Constantinople was able to be a megacity of it's time. With two empires being weak at the same time gave chance for a third to be formed.

The reason why some empire is at it's height depends usually on other empires or centers being at a weak state. (Closest example may be what kind of economic powerhouse the US was in the 1950's compared to the rest of the World... something that has to do with WW2, I guess.)

Also, let’s not forget the great Arab and other Islamic thinkers, scientists, and mathematicians like Omar Khayyam and Al-Khwarizmi, who greatly contributed to the modern world with their fruits of the mind (such as the discovery of algebra), or the Indians, who discovered the number zero, or the Chinese, who invented paper, the compass, gunpowder, and printing. — Tristan L

Let's not forget. Let's try to look at them with the same objectivity (and criticism) that we look at our own "Western" history. If we do that, many interesting question arise.

For example, there is the question just why was the Golden age of Islamic science rather brief. The simple answer often given is that while Christendom had the Renaissance while Islam didn't, but I think it's not such a simple thing.

The historian Ibn Khaldun said that "Science flourishes in wealthy societies" and was correct, even now. Khaldun referred to empires/societies going through cycles similar to human growing up and the becoming old. Something similar that later Western historians have noticed too.

Right-wing hyperbole:

Hillary Clinton: Trump is an illegitimate president
Majority of young Americans view Trump as illegitimate
Former President Jimmy Carter says Donald Trump is an illegitimate president — NOS4A2

So the Democrats have learned how to play the game like the Republicans did with Bill Clinton?

What's new?

Divide et impera, I say.

It works, you know.

(even if you, me, and other annoying people here aren't voting American citizens.)

Polls are flawed because pollsters have to make judgment calls about who they think are likely to vote. And considering historic low voter turnout in the US, that's probably a very vague science. — Benkei

A very good point.

Although many states have their last days to register coming up just now. But when such a very large percentage don't vote, it is hard for the pollsters, that is for sure.

No evidence of a significant group of "shy Trump supporters" was ever produced. — Echarmion

Let's see how well the polls predict the election results. We'll see then.

Getting Covid-19 is a blessing in disguise? Ok. :roll:

I think it will be close because I do think that it is an reality that many might say that they vote Biden in a poll and then vote Trump. Still, it's quite a gap and time is getting short: Trump has to win many states that now Biden is leading and not lose any. A 6% lead from Biden in Pennsylvania is a radical turnaround if the state would go to Trump. Those who really make people to vote Trump are the idiots who don't just oppose Trump, but especially hate Trump voters. I've always said that it's the condescending hostile attitude that really leave a bad taste in mouth. And that should be a line that in a democracy you shouldn't cross.

But who knows, Trump can get re-hospitalized and Joe Biden can get a stroke next week or something.

He's going even crazier than usual. — Michael

I think that Trump is finally losing it. The election, I mean.

Halting the stimulus talks and taking up (again) the idea of "it's just as the flu" on the pandemic may have been the last straw. Even if the polls may be incorrect, they aren't totally incorrect. Otherwise he is just the same inept himself as he has been all the time.

Due to the Roman Empire's vast extent and long endurance, the institutions and culture of Rome had a profound and lasting influence on the development of language, religion, art, architecture, philosophy, law, and forms of government in the territory it governed, and far beyond. — Gus Lamarch

As Rome wasn't alone and didn't just face "barbaric" tribes and the celts in the north, it would be interesting to learn how much the Persian Empire (Sassanid Empire etc.) of the same age left it's mark on the later era. Unfortunately the Mongols devastated the area of modern Iran and Iraq later while Western Europe avoided the Mongol scourge. Later Chinese culture and society obviously got similar influence from the age of Antiquity.

Greece: Antifa nation. — StreetlightX

At least Europol seems to agree with you:

Although the number of Islamic-inspired terrorist attacks in Greece was non-existent, the report said that “the number of left-wing and anarchist terrorist attacks in 2019 (26) reached the level of 2016 and 2017 after a decrease in 2018. All attacks took place in Greece, Italy or Spain,” adding that these three countries continue to “be the epicentre for attacks carried out by left-wing and anarchist terrorists.”

(See Europol says all terrorist attacks in Greece last year were by anarchists)

Stats from 2018:


From the actual report Europol 2020 terrorism report:

Anarchist modi operandi in 2019 mirrored those of previous years. Anarchist extremists formed unstructured nonhierarchical groups that operated mainly in and around specific urban areas. They launched violent campaigns and engaged in clashes with the police during demonstrations organised by them or after infiltrating ‘mainstream’ nonviolent demonstrations. Anti-fascism, anti-racism and perceived state repression remained the primary topics of importance. Left-wing and anarchist extremists engaged in violent confrontations with far-right sympathisers and, to a lesser extent, targeted representatives and premises of right-wing political parties. Anti-globalisation and anti-capitalism were also on their agenda, with banks, national and multinational companies and private property targeted during violent protests.

For those interested, the Europol report covers naturally also right-wing, jihadist and separatist terrorism.

Of course people would have preferred to miss a particular plague, but disease continually carried off friends and family, so longevity wasn't typical. All of which is NOT to say people were casual about losing parents and children or indifferent to death. — Bitter Crank

Before people prayed in the Church sermon that "disease and pestilence" wouldn't come. Not anymore, but now we have seen they are still there.

Yet this is true what you say. It is also true that plagues and famines caused by draughts have indeed shaken the support of the ruling regime and have been causes to political instability, yet they can only give a part of the explanation for the events. A full on crisis or conflicts do have needed that political narrative also.

But I am wondering about the changes because although 'collapse' was perhaps an over dramatic word I do believe that previous pandemics probably did have far reaching effects, and the virus is not over yet. — Jack Cummins

'Change' and not 'collapse' would likely be the appropriate way to look at this.

The first thing is to realize that people and societies take diseases quite calmly, as they actually do with natural disasters. As the name implies, the cause isn't human, so we won't start bitching so much as we do if the cause is purely from the actions of other people. If we complain, we complain only about the response of other people and governments to the natural disaster. The second fact is that people adapt as best as they can do with these kinds of issues. Thirdly, even if we are in an economic depression, it simply isn't a collapse in a way that our society will stop functioning. The governments around the World do function, they do pay the salaries of the public sector employees and do provide the services and so on.

So let's put things into context: Just imagine how absolutely striking the difference in just about everything would be if let's say there wasn't no pandemic, but in the present political turmoil over 200 000 people would have been killed this year, a similar amount that has been killed in the pandemic. That would be ten times more than the annual homicide rate in the US or twice the number that have been killed in Mexico in the drug wars in the last two decades. This kind of instability would easily have a similar effect on the economy as the lock-down has had as shops would also close and people would hunker down, avoid large gatherings etc. in such a dangerous situation. Then your argument about a 'collapse' would be in a totally different category. As only a few thousand killed in an spectacular terrorist attack changed totally the mood of the country and did have an effect on people, it is easy to understand that such violence inside the country would change a lot.

Starting from how Americans would feel about their nation.

Here's how the US compares to the World. Notice the uptick in Asia. What basically is happening is that now Europe is approaching the high infection rates of the Americas and seems to have gone past the US again:



The "second wave" can be seen here from certain European countries:



Here's the situation in Europe from last month looked on the map. As you can see, the situation is bad again in Spain while for example in Italy and in Germany it's good:

How's Finland? — frank

Here's a chart of the daily new cases. In the highest peak there was over 200 new cases during one day, yet after the spring there were well below twenty new confirmed cases daily. The latest figures shown a slight increase, but what has stopped quite dramatically are the deaths to the virus as knowledge how to treat the virus is obviously increased here and around the World:



Infections could start jumping upwards, but now in all 346 have died, which is less than the death toll in West Virginia, but more than in North Dakota.

But did these regional distinctions take place before or after the Viking era? — schopenhauer1

I think well before. Tacitus in 98 AD does separates many of the present people as various Germanic tribes living in the North quite accurately (talks about Swedes and Finns or Sami for example). Of course he hadn't visited the place, but still.

In the North there hasn't been huge changes in population or influx of new people as in Central or Southern Europe (at least before our time).

Are we at the brink of a collapse or a new, transitional point in culture and human thought? — Jack Cummins

Were we there in 1918-1920?

A lot more people died then and the response was, well, quite the same.

Besides, If the Black Plague didn't collapse our culture, why would this pandemic?

Only a Mass Extinction Event like an Asteroid hitting us similar that killed the dinosaurs would put us on the brink of collapse.

There was here a good article of this as one doctor referred Trump's actions being result of a cortisone psychosis (see here), unfortunately in Finnish (behind a paywall). Add there that Trump was obviously fuming at chief of staff Meadows saying that "the next 48 hours are critical" and the fact that likely Trump is using all kind of drugs already, his actions 100% Trump.

In my view, he is simply not fit for the office. Perhaps he could be made "Tweeter-in-Chief" of the USA, that would be enough.

What's interesting is how the Viking kingdoms turned into various nation-states after conversion to Christianity. Can you elaborate on that process and how Norway, Denmark, and Sweden became distinct but without using post-facto realities? — schopenhauer1

Start from the languages: they are different. Swedes and Norwegians can understand somewhat each other while (at least in my view) Danish is a lot more different.

Perhaps Benkei or other Dutch persons here could answer this, but Dutch and German are somewhat close to each other, but still different languages. As are Finnish and Estonian, for that matter.

If the EU has any advantage, it's in offering a peaceful way to do some level of integration. — Olivier5

Emphasis on the "some level" is appropriate as that is what all EU members want.

This all just shows how problematic a singular idea of "Europe" and "European" is.

When you think of it, Europe's strength is in it's diversity. That might sound at first very nice and politically correct, but the simple fact is that this means disjointedness, disunity, and that you do have huge problems in creating a federation similar to the US. As we talked earlier, the Nordic countries have had totally open borders for a long time, lots of cooperation on various field and the countries view themselves as Nordic/Scandinavian. Yet there is ABSOLUTELY NO intention from anyone to recreate the Kalmar Union. There wasn't even the will to use Scandinavism as an ideology to unify Norway, Sweden and Denmark. There simply wasn't any Garibaldi or Bismarck here that would have unified the territories through military force. The political will simply didn't exist and doesn't exist.

With this insight we should look at Europe: yes, countries are willing to cooperate and have good relations between others, yet they are quite independent and value that independence. One can see the structural problem that the EU has. In my view the EU would have to understand it cannot be the US of Europe, it indeed is a confederacy of independent states, and it is wrong and actually harmful to try to reach something more.

It comes back to the fact that if you are willing really to unify Europe under one political rule, you have to use force, just like Napoleon, Charlemagne, and just like the Romans did. And the military has to be dominant and always on the alert, otherwise it will break up. This is something that the EU is not willing to understand. Perhaps this is the lesson from all the European empires that have controlled vast parts of Europe that we seem not to learn.

Well, I should point out that the Spanish flu didn't change the way people behaved later, even if it did alter a lot of things back then when the pandemic was raging.

A former astrologist and an influence behind Jair Bolsonaro who among his anti-Western stance has also contested the ideas of physicists Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, and mathematician Georg Cantor saying Newton introduced a self-contradictory thesis and spread the virus of "formidable stupidity"? :brow:

Ummm....no, I think I'll pass this conspiracy theorist. Even the English version of his books (as I don't read Portuguese).

I wonder if remote schooling will become a lasting reality as well. — Merkwurdichliebe

Well, from the experience with my daughter I can tell that for first graders it doesn't work, it sucks. Yet have to say that the pandemic was a crash course for teachers on distance learning. For higher classes an especially in tertiary education, it's an option even if the limitations are obvious. We do need that physical contact.

I think the norm will be that you basically can work from home some days, but typically you will have physical meetings every once in a while.

It is appaling how fast the tyranny of the masses can effect a new "new normal". I'm pretty sure the "old normal" is dead and extinct. I mostly feel bad for the kids who are growing up in a cowardly faceless world. — Merkwurdichliebe

If we get that vaccine, it won't take long that the pandemic is history...assuming it goes away in 2021. How important will it be depends of course from future events, but if this is a once in 50 to 100 years thing, not much will remain about it. Just as there's absolutely no collective memory of the Spanish flu, and who remembers that we had the "Hong Kong flu"-pandemic in the same year Woodstock happened.

What likely has happened is that working from home got a real boost from the pandemic and likely companies will look just how much office space they actually need in the future.

Yes. But not as a major.

Forced in a top down manner on the people — Olivier5

What wouldn't be forced in a top down manner? That's the way societies work.

Germans and Italians too. — Olivier5

Germans have a problematic stance towards their history and Italians do feel that Brussels and the EU is far away. The best example is Greece. People do understand the role that Greece has played as the birthplace for Western European culture, but we (in the West) then disregard it's Roman past as we call the East-Romans Byzantinians. They called themselves Romans, yet spoke Greek. Another divide comes with the Church.