Yes I did, and this is not the definition used by Armstrong. That's why I said:You definitely discussed "state of affairs" ontology with me, in your reference to an initial state of affairs. You even defined it for me:
By "state" or "state of affairs", I am referring to the the totality of existence at a point of time — Metaphysician Undercover
I hadn't discussed "state of affairs" ontology with you, so had not used the term that way. — Relativist
Your definition of "state of affairs", as stated in your reply to me, does not support your claim that it is the most fundamental concept in ontology. — Metaphysician Undercover
You don't understand what a state of affairs is in Armstrong's ontology. I'm not interested in taking the time to explain it with you, but you can get a sense of it in the Wikipedia Article on Armstrong.Your definition can be broken down in analysis into two distinct aspects, objects and their relations. These are two very different concepts, and since "state of affairs" is made up of these two, they are each more fundamental than "state of affairs". — Metaphysician Undercover
Remember that I never set out to convince you physicalism is true. My objectives were to help you understand it, and to provide my justification for believing it.I don’t take issue with physicalism because you hold it, but because I believe it’s a mistaken philosophical view. — Wayfarer
Your reasons seem to boil down to fact that it's inconsistent with your other beliefs. It's perfectly reasonable to interpret new information in terms of one's background beliefs, and it's justified to to reject a proposal on that basis. But this rejection is subjective: epistemically contingent on your particular background beliefs (subsumed in your overall noetic structure).I believe I’ve given you many grounds on which I and others believe physicalism to be a mistaken philosophical view, but that you don’t recognize the arguments.
The term "physicalism" is used largely for historical reasons. These are discussed in the SEP article on physicalism. Personally, I make sense of it by considering proper subsets of the sorts of things commonly treated as existing: spiritual/supernatural objects (e.g. angels), abstract objects, and physical objects. Physicalists deny the existence of the first two. — Relativist
The argument is that the reference to "spiritual/supernatural objects" is a category error. That by declaring the 'spiritual or supernatural' to consist of 'objects' you are making it an empty set. — Wayfarer
You're either being disingenuous or you didn't make an effort to understand what I said. I precisely defined the way "state of affairs" is used in the ontology, distinguishing it from the common use of the term: 1) as a term that applies to everything that exists, from the foundational to the most complex; 2) that it consists of a particular, with its properties and relationsAlthough you charge me with vagueness, I can’t help noticing that physicalism itself is equally vague, if not more so. When it defines “physical” as “whatever physics will someday describe,” or as a “state of affairs” (which in practice means “whatever happens to be the case”), how is that not vague? — Wayfarer
You don't need to put it in scientific terms, but you need to be as "determinate" as you expected me to be. So far, you've made no specific claims (other than the implication that you believe your mind exists), just vague allusions. I haven't noticed any specific claims about what exists. If I've overlooked it, remind me. If you can't do this is straightforward terms, then understand why this is problematic.Of course it sounds vague when what you want is something very specific, determinable by scientific enquiry, an 'atomic fact'. Questions of this kind are always elusive, that's why the positivists wanted to declare them all meaningless as a matter of principle. They're difficult in a way different to technical and scientific questions. — Wayfarer
The only thing being "transformed" is the mind of the person, not the external world.
— Relativist
There, again, is your belief that the world is a certain way, that it has a determinate existence external to your cognition of it. But this is just what has been called into question by both cognitive science and quantum physics. — Wayfarer
We're only involved in producing the contents of our minds. And we have employed our minds to get an understanding of what exists outside of it. Are you suggesting this is futile? I don't think you are, but it's consistent with your vague claims. If you agree it's not futile, then what IS your point?we do not see the phenomenon 'in itself', as it is, independently of our observation of it. We're involved in producing the outcome. — Wayfarer
Of course it requires a perspectival shift, but you need to explain this alternate perspective! Vague allusions doesn't do it. Vague reference to phenomenonlogy doesn't do it whe you also haven't acknowledged the actual existence of anything external to yourself. I expect you do, but if so- explain how we can know this despite the phenomenology. This is why it's vague.The fact that you will invariably interpret this as being a causal sequence where consciousness is one thing, the effect another, is the same issue as treating the spiritual or supernatural as 'an object'. As I said, requires perspectival shift to see why. — Wayfarer
No, you did not provide a reason. You merely suggested there's an alternative perspective that makes different distinctions. You would need to outline this perspective, the distinctions it makes, and explain how it's superior (not just different).[b)You've provided no reason to think this is a false distinction[/b]
— Relativist
I just have! I'm trying to convey a difficult point about the nature and limitations of objective thought, but everything I'm saying is interpolated into an idiom within which only what is considered objective is admissable. — Wayfarer
Vagueness is suspicious: it tends to be both unconvincing and incorrigible. Unconvincing, because of the lack of clarity needed to analyze and evaluate it. Incorrigible because one can twist the vague meanings on the fly in order to counter objections. — Relativist
Why does it matter, if it's a category that maps to an empty set?I understand that - what is physical is defined in contrast with or distinct from what is supernatural or spiritual. That's a part of my point - it is an aspect of the 'Cartesian division' which I've already referred to. I'm trying to explain what is wrong with the expresssion 'spiritual/supernatural objects...' — Wayfarer
That's an ontological claim: you seem to agree there are no spiritual objects, but hint that "spiritual" applies in some vague way to at some vague things. Stop being vague and describe what you mean, and explain why I should accept your claims.There is no objective existent which corresponds with 'spirit' because (again whether it is real or not) it transcends the subject-object division. — Wayfarer
The only thing being "transformed" is the mind of the person, not the external world. Sure: we are actors in the world, and this seems important because it could positively influence our behaviour - protecting the environment, the welfare of other species, etc. However, this is an epistemological paradigm with moral overtones. It doesn't falsify the ontology I'm defending; nor does it entail an alternative one. Rather - it reenforces the utility of fit-for-purpose paradigms.There are four ways of knowing: propositional, perspectival, procedural and participatory (ref.)Participatory knowledge is the knowledge of what it’s like to occupy a role in your environment or relationships. Vervaeke considers this to be the most profound of the four types of knowledge. It involves being in a deep, transformative relationship with the world, participating fully in something that is wider than you. — Wayfarer
So is also the sensory evaluation of wine, economics, and architecture. Each topic is explored and discussed within their respective frameworks. Assemble a group of people with similar education on one of these topics and they can have a meaningful discussion, despite having different religions and ethnic backgrounds, because they share the same topic-central basis. I think Trump is a narcissistic, amoral criminal, irrespective of the ontological grounding of these characteristics. I suspect your views aren't too different.Of course, this is all light years away from David Armstrong's physicalism — Wayfarer
There are still definite properties, but these properties are not simple, scalar numbers. Indeed this is at odds with the way we perceive, and interact with, the world.it still marks a break from naïve objectivism (where objects are assumed to have definite properties regardless of measurement). — Wayfarer
But "meaning" is only intra-mental. It influences how we interact with the world outside our minds, but there's no direct ontological relation between this "meaning" (whatever the ontology of it) and the system it applies to. Furthermore, false understandings influence our interactions just as much as accurate ones.And then, there's the all-too-obvious point that all such measuring devices and instruments are extensions of human sensory abilities. 'The apparatus has no meaning unless the human observer understands it and interprets its reading,' as Schrödinger put it. — Wayfarer
I'm trying to draw attention to the implied understanding in your framing of the issue, of the separateness of mind and world. Universals, in the medieval account, are the way in which the intelligible features of the world are absorbed by intellect — Wayfarer
I see this as a poetic description of the processes of abstracting and understanding, perfectly consistent, in essentials, with my less unpoetic rendition. If you think I'm missing something, then spell it out. As noted: vagueness hurts your case.Aquinas, building on Aristotle, maintained that true knowledge arises from a real union between knower and known.... Thus, knowledge is not an external mapping of the world but an assimilation, a union that bridges the gap between subject and object through shared intelligibility.
LOL! Of course it is sufficiently "elastic"! The specifics are a matter for empirical investigation. The notion that everything that exists is a state of affairs IS explanatory - it tells us something about the nature of existence: properties (color, electric charge, mass, ...) aren't existents; neither are relations (electromagnetic attraction, distance, angle...). Further, there's an acknowledgement that there are universals; nominalism is rejected; foundational tropes are rejected.That’s precisely the issue: the category “states of affairs” is elastic enough to accommodate whatever physics happens to throw up. It’s not doing explanatory work so much as retrofitting itself to whatever the latest theory says exists. — Wayfarer
An hominem would be an irrational judgement that your reasoning was rooted in something about you that has little or logical relation to the matter at hand. My comment was based on giving you the benefit of the doubt that your judgement is rooted in your noetic structure (the sum total of a person's beliefs, plus the relationships between those beliefs, plus the relationships or the relations between those beliefs)Furthermore, I don’t think it’s helpful to frame this as though my philosophical outlook simply reduces to my personality or my particular “areas of concern” which is essentially a form of ad hominem argument. I — Wayfarer
So you're just making the modest claim that the argument convinces you of god's existence. You are not claiming that it constitutes undeniable proof that no rational person could deny.I have the proof which I believe is irrefutable. You dispute the truth of one of my premises. The burden is on you to demonstrate that the premise is false. — Metaphysician Undercover
On the contary. You assumed the burden of proof when you said:What you actually need to do to prove that the premise is untrue, — Metaphysician Undercover
I believe the cosmological argument provides irrefutable proof of God — Metaphysician Undercover
By "state" or "state of affairs", I am referring to the the totality of existence at a point of time. This would include all physical things and all gods (if they exist). What I've shown is that: it is possible that there was an initial state of affairs even if no gods exist.That does not affect the argument. You just switched terminology from the existence of a physical thing, to a "state of affairs". By the inductive principle, the potential for each "state of affairs" is prior in time to that state of affairs. And, it needs an actual cause. Therefore even the proposed "initial state of affairs" has an actual cause which is prior to it. — Metaphysician Undercover
And to think: you called ME a "dimwit".By presenting an alternative you hadn't considered, I conclusively proved your conclusion false.
— Relativist
You haven't presented any alternative. You only irrationally denied the inductive logic as black swan fallacy. However, there is no black swan fallacy here, because all experience and all physical evidence points to the truth of the premise — Metaphysician Undercover
That is mathematically incorrect. An infinite set of possibilities could fit any probability distribution.In infinite possibility each must be equally probable to allow that all are possible. — Metaphysician Undercover
There are various ideas about what it means to exist. My position is that existence entails objects which have intrinsic properties and that has relations to all other objects (at least indirectly). A brute fact initial state would have properties that accounted for its potential to develop into subsequent states of affairs. IOW: it initiates (=causes) the subsequent causal chain that you misinterpret.However, an initial state is also conceptually possible: we can conceptualize something just existing by brute fact*.
— Relativist
This is false. We have an idea of what "existing" means. And, it is derived from our observations of the physical world. If we move to "conceptualize something existing by brute fact", then we violate, or contradict the meaning of "existing" which is supported by observations of our world. — Metaphysician Undercover
Nope. The initial state is causally linked to everything that exists.Of course one might stipulate, like in the case of mathematical axioms, what "existing" means, and proceed to a conceptualization of something which exists simply because it is posited as existing, but what good would that do? This conceptualized existing thing, which exists because it is posited as existing by brute fact, would be something completely distinct and unrelated to the actual physical existence which we know — Metaphysician Undercover
An initial state is a black swan: it falsifies your inductive inference, and you haven't proven an initial state impossible.Again, this is false. Yes, we have two contradictory metaphysical claims. However, mine is proven through reference to the actual physical world, and the strongest inductive principle which we can know — Metaphysician Undercover
Then watch this short video by cosmologist Sean Carroll:Your understanding of the big bang theory is flawed. The theory of the big bang is based on general relativity: the size of the (currently) visible universe approaches zero at increasingly earlier states. So there's a mathematical limit of 0 size and infinite density. This entails a mathematical singularity - from which physicists infer general relativity breaks down. They also note that below a certain radius, quantum effects would dominate. This is currently unanalyzable because there is no accepted theory that reconciles general relativity and quantum mechanics.
— Relativist
i don't see the flaw — Metaphysician Undercover
You responded to one of my posts with a set of unsupported assertions that were contrary to things I had said. Now you expect me to prove you wrong. I'm not playing that game.The actual science is independent of all the metaphysical claims you made.
— Relativist
Utter bollocks. But go ahead and back your assertion up with the argument that might sustain it — apokrisis
See the part in bold, above. My assertion was modest: an initial state of affairs is possible. Your claim required it to be impossible: it was inductive inference, so treating it as an ironclad truth committed the Black Swan fallacy. By presenting an alternative you hadn't considered, I conclusively proved your conclusion false. You have now attempted to prove there to be an unrelated reason to deny the possibility of an initial state, to rationalize your error:The observations you refer to are entirely within a temporal context, such that for any observed object, X, we observed a time (Tp) prior to its existence. So we can conclude that the state of affairs at Tp necessarily had the potential to produce X.
Your inductive inference applies to all cases in which an object comes into existence from a state of affairs in which it did not exist. It does not apply to an initial state of affairs (Si); because there was no prior time at which Si did not exist. There's no objective reason to believe an initial, uncaused, physical state of affairs could not have existed.
I have just conclusively shown that your argument is non-sequitur.
— Relativist
No, you have just presented me with an irrelevant and false proposition, that an initial state of affairs is required. — Metaphysician Undercover
Now you're attempting to prove an initial, physical state is impossible based on determinism (the premise that every state of the universe was caused by a prior state). Determinism in the universe is a consequence of natural law (e.g. thermodynamics, among others). If you were to claim that natural law necessitates prior causes for every physical state then you would be committing the fallacy of composition: assuming that a principle (or law) that apply to parts also apply to the whole. So you have to depend on metaphysical law. Let's examine.The irrationality of an initial state of affairs, in the absolute sense, with no prior time, demonstrates that any proposed initial state, itself requires a prior cause.
Your understanding of the big bang theory is flawed. The theory of the big bang is based on general relativity: the size of the (currently) visible universe approaches zero at increasingly earlier states. So there's a mathematical limit of 0 size and infinite density. This entails a mathematical singularity - from which physicists infer general relativity breaks down. They also note that below a certain radius, quantum effects would dominate. This is currently unanalyzable because there is no accepted theory that reconciles general relativity and quantum mechanics.That is exactly the case with the proposed "Big Bang". It must be either reduced to a nonphysical mathematical "singularity" as the initial state (which is irrational because its a mathematical, nonphysical "state"), or else understood as having a prior cause, God or some other sort of universe creating mechanism.
The fact that the language of mathematics treats abstractions as "existing" does not entail that they do.This is why physicalism is a very problematic perspective. Mathematical axioms assume the existence of mathematical objects. — Metaphysician Undercover
A physicist making a claim about the ontological status of mathematical abstractions is doing metaphysics, not physics. It's a question that cannot be settled by empirical evidence or scientific methodology.This indicates that what you state as the approach of physicalism, "physicalism defers to physics the identification of what exists", is mistaken. — Metaphysician Undercover
Agreed.how anyone portrays the ontology of modern physics is just a matter of personal preference. — Metaphysician Undercover
I brought up the "spiritual/supernatural" because there are common beliefs about it, and my purpose was to explain what it means to be physical.But again, please understand what I see as the fundamental category error in this formulation. By casting the non-physical in terms of 'spiritual/supernatural objects', you are already framing it within the paradigm of objectivism - the assumption that whatever is real, is, or could be, an object of cognition....empiricist presuppositions ... — Wayfarer
A meta-analysis would be great, but I don't think you're doing that. Rather, you're presentingThis is a metaphilosophical point concerning questions about how philosophy itself is conceived. — Wayfarer
How does our "participation" in existence differ from the participation of the sun? The sun has had a key role in the development of life on earth. Of course, it wasn't by choice.All that in mind, “the nature of being” can be understood very differently. In phenomenological (and also Indian) philosophy, being is participatory: something we are always already enacting, not a detached object of analysis — Wayfarer
All paradigms (spectacles) are interpretive frameworks, including a paradigm of "participatory existence".The challenge is that we are so immersed in this orientation that we don’t see it; it provides the spectacles through which questions are viewed. Philosophy, to my mind, means learning to look at those spectacles, not only through them. — Wayfarer
The term, "subjectively real" seems problematic. The "contents" of my mind (my mental states) are objectively real - but known only to me. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you are simply suggesting the converse of objectivism. I'm waiting to hear some epistemic virtues, besides "possible".But the upshot is, there are things that are subjectively real, that is, can only be known first-person, but which are as foundational as any purported 'atomic objects of cognition'. This is what we designate Being, which includes the irreducible fact of the subject to whom the objective world is disclosed. — Wayfarer
One must assume the "spiritual" exists in order to consider it of significance. I get it, that you referred to it being foundational to philosophy- but in that respect, philosophy's foundation was a product of its time. It's moved on, for good reasons. I gather that you're challenging the direction it took, but swimming against the current is extremely challenging.nothing is said about what is spiritual, that might only be because, with Wittgenstein, there is 'that of which we cannot speak', but which is nevertheless of foundational significance in philosophy. But the upshot is, there are things that are subjectively real, that is, can only be known first-person, but which are as foundational as any purported 'atomic objects of cognition'. This is what we designate Being, which includes the irreducible fact of the subject to whom the objective world is disclosed. — Wayfarer
I've previously read the Feser article. The general problem I have with it is that he framed thinking in a paradigm incompatible with materialism, and then showed how it's incompatible with materislism.my take on universals is that they are intrinsic to the way in which the mind assimilates and interprets sensory experience. Intellectual abstractions, the grasp of abstract relations and qualities, are what binds rational conceptions together to form coherent ideas. But these are neither 'in the world' nor mere pyschological constructs, they are universal structures of intelligibility disclosed through consciousness. (As you've mentioned Edward Feser's blog, see his Think, McFly, Think.) — Wayfarer
No. The interpretations account for the measurements. Referring to this as "observer dependency" implies there's something special in the relation between a human observer and the quantum system being measured. The more objective description is "entanglement" - which occurs when a quantum system interacts with a classical object.Even the competing interpretations are trying to account for the fact of observer-dependency, — Wayfarer
I disagree with your claim that "what is real is a range of possibilities". The possibilities you refer to are predictions of what will be measured, when complementary properties (like position and momentum) are measured. What is real is the quantum system. Were there no entanglements with a classical object (such as occurs with a measurement) the system would continue down the deterministic path of its wave function.What is real, is a range of possibilities expressed by the wave-function (ψ), which are condensed into a single value by registration or measurement (the so-called 'wavefunction collapse' — Wayfarer
Again: no. Physicalism doesn't depend on particles being the ontological ground. According to current physics, quantum fields are more fundamental than particles. Quantum fields fit the state-of-affairs model: they are particulars with properties and relations to other quantum fields.So when you write that “particulars are reducible … all the way down to atomic states of affairs,” you’re really invoking a metaphysical picture inherited from classical physics. But precisely that picture is what quantum mechanics has called into question, forcing contemporary physicalism to uncouple itself from physics as such. Which, again, implies that Armstrong's 'atomic facts' are conceptual placeholders. — Wayfarer
I don't want censorship, but I have a more nuanced view of free speech than you. And I'm not a hypocrite - like you. I do not, and have not, advocated silencing people like Kirk for their speech. I support rebutting that speech, as I do with you. But if Kirk's speech, which clearly exhibits prejudice, is allowable - why wouldn't satire?, I’m pointing out that this is the world that people like Kimmel built. You want censorship you get censorship. — NOS4A2
Not sure what to make of this yet...
Charlie Kirk and The Hate Speech Algorithm (— Evey Winters · Sep 18, 2025) — jorndoe
if what you mean by “physical” is not fixed by physics itself, then what anchors it? — Wayfarer
(Your first sentence is correct.)If physicalism transcends physics in the sense you describe, then these postulates are not discoveries of physics but metaphysical commitments. In that case, why call the framework ‘physical’ rather than simply metaphysical realism? — Wayfarer
The metaphysical system "physicalism" doesn't include a catalog of what exists. I don't think any metaphysical system does that, except for some particular existent, like God in Thomist metaphysics.If the claim is that “physical reality = the totality of reality,” then the term “physical” is carrying a great deal of weight. But if what you mean by “physical” is not fixed by physics itself, then what anchors it? Otherwise, “physicalism” looks less like an ontology than a promissory note: asserting that whatever is real must fall under the heading of the physical, even when the meaning of “physical” is left indeterminate. — Wayfarer
That is the common issue that is brought up. There are 3 pushbacks:Lowe argued this borders on incoherence: how can one and the same entity be wholly present in two places at once? — Wayfarer
I'm struggling to see how this differs from what I said. If Lowe believes properties are not particulars, then what are they? Armstrong says they are constituents of particulars. Particulars are reducible to simpler particulars, all the way down to the ground: atomic particulars/states of affairs which are irreducible. These atomic states of affairs still have all 3 sets of constituents (bare particular, intrinsic properties, relations to other particulars). How does Lowe account for them?He advocates a weak form of immanence, where universals are always instantiated but are not themselves located in space and time. Universals, in Lowe, are not reducible to particulars nor are they spatiotemporal. That’s why he says they are “always instantiated” but not literally in space and time. — Wayfarer
Sure, they can only be "recognized" by minds, because recognition is a mental process. But surely the existence of universals is not contingent on being recognized by humans. Electrons had -1 electric charge before anyone recognized there were electrons and they each have this exact charge.Me, I say that universals can only be recognised by a mind. They are dependent on the mind’s ability to identify likeness etc. They are part of the intellectual apparatus of rational thought. — Wayfarer
I was explaining the GENERAL problems with some infinite regresses, in answer to your question: "And what, for that matter, is the supposed threat of 'infinite regress'?" Any metaphysics that entails a problematic infinite regress has this problem. It's a general issue in philosophy of mathematics.every object that is examined is accounted for by simpler and simpler components. The absence of a bottom layer implies the series as a whole isn't accounted for, and it would be impossible for an infinite number of parts to assemble.
— Relativist
That problem is not addressed by the assertion that at bottom, everything must be physical, especially in the absence of any notion of the physical that is stipulated by physics. — Wayfarer
My objective has never been to persuade you physicalism is true. My objective has been to demonstrate that it is not unreasonable to accept it. I know you will judge it negatively because it's inconsistent with matters important to you, but I hope you recognize that I have different philosophical concerns.That is really all I have to say on the matter. I am not and will never be persuaded by physicalism. — Wayfarer
I think you mean "refuted", as in proving to you that your position is unreasonable- which I never set out to do.I stand by the criticisms I’ve offered and I don’t see them as having been rebutted. — Wayfarer
I don't claim to understand it, but what would help would be some short description of a reasonable form of idealism. Not "Joe says this, Mike says that" and leaving it to the interested reader to explore further. I'm only mildly interested, not sufficiently to do that work.I too feel that criticism of the idealist ideas I put forward is based on their not being understood. — Wayfarer
So the free speech absolutist makes an exception, when it entails retaliation by his side; a retaliation that's an order of magnitude worse because it entailed explicitly political speech, and threats to misuse the office of the FCC to inflict that punishment*, and threats of expensive lawsuitsAlso, so-called “election denial” was verboten. Anti-Trump pressure campaigns even got the president removed from the largest social media platforms, along with vast swaths of his supporters. That’s why I don’t care too much about the victims here, and their cries ring rather hollow. This is what you get. — NOS4A2
I googled the definition of Transcend:how can physicalism transcend physics? If physics is not relevant to physicallsm, then why describe such a foundational ontology as “physical” at all? Physical compared to what? — Wayfarer
Axiomatic, but justified. The states of affairs (SOA) model is consistent and coherent, and entails a hierarchical structure such that complex SOAs are composed of lower level SOAs. Introducing additional, nonphysical, categories of existent is superfluous and unparsimonious.And if the irreducible bottom layer of reality cannot, even in principle, be identified by or with the theories of physics, then on what basis is it called "physical"? — Wayfarer
Because an ontological/metaphysical theory entails a theory of what exists. Compare to Thomist metaphysics which assumes every existent has an "essence". This is a postulate based on conceptual analysis- there SEEMS to be something essential to objects that is unique to them. Conceptual analysis is the basis for any ontology.Armstrong’s “atoms” may be a neat philosophical posit but unless they’re tied to some determinate content, why regard them as more than symbolic? And if they’re only symbolic, then the reality they possess is conceptual rather than physical.
An infinite regress of causes implies each effect can be accounted for by the immediately prior cause. This has 2 vices: 1) It entails an infinite past, because causation entails a temporal sequence. I have argued in other threads that this is mpossible 2) The infinite series (as a whole) is left unaccounted for.And what, for that matter, is the supposed threat of “infinite regress”? — Wayfarer
How frustrating. For me.How convenient! — Wayfarer
This portion of my response did not deal with Chalmer's claims - but I addressed it later in my response. Here, I was explaining the difference between physics and physicalism, and their relationship to each other. You have clearly misunderstood it, and the comment you reacted to was part of my explanation. Appropriate responses would be "ah, I get it now (at least partly)", or a follow-up question to get additional clarification if it still wasn't clear.The scope of ontology is the totality of existence. Physicalists are philosophers who assert the physical world to BE the totality of existence, but it is not a conclusion derived from physics.
— Relativist
But surely the totality of existence includes human beings. You're not seeing the point of Chalmers critique: — Wayfarer
It (the 'hard problem' is problematic for a physicalism that assumes science can and will answer all questons about the natural world
— Relativist
But it's important to grasp that this is not the meaning of the 'hard problem'. It's not the want of knowledge about the natural world. — Wayfarer
I'll be blunt. You were attacking a strawman: a false view of physicalism that assumes "scientific descriptions" must possible for everthing. I went on to say, "I do not expect science to necessarily be able to answer every question about the physical world." I expanded on this in my subsequent 2 paragraphs.do you recognize any cogency in David Chalmers' argument? That 'the nature of experience' cannot be fully captured by scientific descriptons? If you don't, why not? If you do, how does it fail as argument against physicalism? — Wayfarer
The judgement is between 2 or more competing hypotheses, for the sole purpose of selecting one. And remember I have replaced my term "good reason" with "relevant information". This relevent new information may, or may not, change the ranking. Consider the auditory evidence of a second shooter of Kennedy: this new information doesn't change my relative ranking of the 2 hypotheses. In cases where it is a closer call, new relevant information could change the judgement.Only in situations where one has a choice of hypotheses is the degree of certainty needed.
— Relativist
In this case, you have what you called good reason to believe that the hypothesis is false. How would this affect the degree of certainty? — Metaphysician Undercover
Semantics. I previously addressed this:[I think it is irrational to choose a hypotheses when there is strong evidence (good reason) which indicates that it is false.
______________________If I use your private lexicon, I would not label the point a "good reason" to reject physicalism, but rather that it constitutes relevant information that should be taken into account (as I previously described, and you ignored). — Relativist
You seem to be mistakenly treating certainly level as a probability that can be calculated, and indicating the actual probability is unknown - because our knowledge is limited.However, the issue is really much more complicated than what you describe. What happens often, is that a person will select a hypotheses with incomplete data, as you suggest. The extent of the data which is unknown is itself unknown, so the certainty level may be higher than it ought to be. The relevance of the unknown data cannot be accounted for, because the data is unknown. Therefore the data which is judged is arbitrarily weighted relative to the unknown data. — Metaphysician Undercover
Good description of what often occurs, but do you agree that it can be more rational to reevaluate the hypotheses (there need to be at least 2) than to "adjust and make an exception"? That's my point.Then, as time passes more data will become available to the individual(s) who made that judgement. The data may actually be directly contrary to the accepted hypotheses, but since the hypotheses is already accepted, and plays an active role in the lives of those who accept it, they simply adjust, make an exception to the rule to allow for the now evident contrary data, and continue to work with the hypotheses, which we now have data that confirms it is faulty. — Metaphysician Undercover
There tends to be no viable alternative hypothesis to the then-current accepted theory. But it's more complicated than that. Refer to Kuhn's, "Structure of Scientific Revolutions"This is actually very common in physics. — Metaphysician Undercover
How does the fact that there is an ontological ground to epistemolgy (invariably discussed as a supervenience relation) support your claim that physics can replace epistemology? Consider the relation between meteorology and the more fundamental science of thermodynamics and fluid dynamics - which obviously ground it - just one level down.. No one would suggest replacing meteorology with direct application of thermodynamics and fluid dynamics.Physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis. It's a gross caricature to suggest this means physics can replace epistemology.
— Relativist
Yes, physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis. However, epistemology is what ontology grounds. Therefore it is you who speaks nonsense here. — Metaphysician Undercover
The context is that we're selecting a "best explanation" for a set of data that we are assumed to be facts, from a set 2 or more possible explanations that have been proposed. You still seem be treating this as traditional Bayesianism.You interpreted "good reasons" to entail facts that contradicted my prior judgement. I explained this was not what I meant by the phrase. I have identified no facts that contradict physicalism. If I use your private lexicon, I would not label the point a "good reason" to reject physicalism, but rather that it constitutes relevant information that should be taken into account (as I previously described, and you ignored).
— Relativist
Your use of "facts" here is misplaced. You have talked yourself out of the usefulness of "facts", by insisting that beliefs are judged by degree of certainty. So if there is such a thing as a fact, it is irreleavnt because you do not consider any beliefs to be facts. — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes, I believe the cosmological argument provides irrefutable proof of God. In case your not familiar with it, here is a simplified version.
We observe that it is always the case that the potential for the physical object is prior in time to the actual existence of any physical object... — Metaphysician Undercover
Philosophical differences are always deeply rooted, and unless the difference is very mundane (making it not a real philosophical issue) the differences cannot be resolved without addressing ontological principles. — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes, but it's not always necessary to demonstrate how the issues map to the ontological ground. We usually just claim a supervenience relation.As you yourself admit, ontology provides grounding.
Because physics is not ontology/metaphysics.I don’t intend to misrepresent you, but when you define physicalism as the thesis that everything that exists is composed of physical things, governed by physical forces and laws of nature, supported by an argument from 'the scope of physics', then from my point of view it does sound like physics is being taken as the ontological grounding for your metaphysics. How is it not? — Wayfarer
Ontology INCLUDES the set of all actually existing things, but it also includes theory about the structure of reality. Examples: 1) Armstrong's postulate that everything that exists is a "state off affairs", with 3 kinds of constituents 2) the postulate that laws of nature are relations between universals, account for causation and reflect a necessitation.Would I be correct in saying that you believe that 'ontology' comprises 'the set of all actually existing things', — Wayfarer
It reflects a problem for science rather than a problem for physicalism. It's problematic for a physicalism that assumes science can and will answer all questons about the natural world but I noted my disagreement with that. I do not expect science to necessarily be able to answer every question about the physical world.do you recognize any cogency in David Chalmers' argument? That 'the nature of experience' cannot be fully captured by scientific descriptons? If you don't, why not? If you do, how does it fail as argument against physicalism? — Wayfarer
I think you mean "philosophical implications". The implication I see is paradigm failure. That alone doesn't falsify physicalism. I'm not rationalizing and demanding physicalism be proven logically impossible, because my position is based on Inference to Best Explanation. I would need to see a better explanation than physicalism.scientific method assumes at the outset a division between subject and object, and assigns primary reality to the objectively-measurable attributes of objects, while assigning appearances to the so-called 'secondary attributes' of the subjective mind. I'm saying that physicalism overlooks or ignores this methodological division, and this has philosophical consequences. — Wayfarer
I agree that the physics only establishes the efficacacy of the calculations, but it does tell us something about the ontological nature of the system it describes, and nothing about it is inconsistent with physicalism. It's a strike against standard scientific realism (which assumes the model descriptions as accurate), but is exactly the point of ontic structural realism.Yet they're saying that physics does not describe nature as it is. Do you think that is so? If not, why? — Wayfarer
So...you disagree, and you explained why you disagree, but you've given me no reason to change my mind- you have demonstrated no failure of treating it as paradigm. Neither did you respond to this:I can consider most philosophical issues even when framed in terms inconsistent with physicalism. That's because I regard the framing as paradigm, which can be utilized without ontological commitent to the paradigm.
— Relativist
This seems to rest on a misunderstanding of philosophy as such. Scientific models can indeed be treated as paradigms without ontological commitment — Newtonian mechanics still works fine for spacecraft navigation, even if we know relativity is more fundamental. Same with quantum physicists' 'Shut up and calculate'. But philosophy isn’t just a pragmatic use of conceptual models. Its concern is precisely with what is real, and what it means to exist. To treat philosophical frameworks as if they can be referenced without ontological commitment is to miss the point of philosophy. Ontology can't be firewalled of to a specialised sub-division separate from the rest of philosophy, it's intrinsic to it. — Wayfarer
But if there are issues (or solutions to issues) that DO require some (non-physicalist) ontological commitments, why wouldn't you have the burden of making a case for those commitments? If you believe it impossible to meet the burden, then how can you than construe this as an error my part? Sure, you disagree with me on physicalism, but if you haven't truly falsified it to me, then you have no rational basis to complain about my view on the subject. To do so seems similar to a Christian lamenting my failure to experience the joy of Jesus' love for me, because I'm an ignorant atheist. — Relativist
The category mistakes involved conflating physics with physicalist ontology, and I did say that. More broadly, I said you didn't understand physicalism. I hope this lengthy reply helps to better understand physicalism and its relation to physics.I've given the above arguments repeatedly over the course of this thread, and to my recollection, you haven't engaged with any of them, other than the vague accusation of them being 'category mistakes'. If they are, then how so? — Wayfarer
First of all, I have never claimed knowledge is impossible. I said it is rare. Is this sufficient for uncertain "knowledge"* to make sense, on your terms?The general idea here—which will apply to a large number of the epistemological theories on offer—is that if we abandon the possibility or notion of certain knowledge, then the replacement form of uncertain knowledge will cease to make sense. — Leontiskos
Who are you showing this to? Yourself? Me? If it's me, then it's only worth my time if you are trying to convince me, rather than just "witnessing" it to me (like the Jehovah's witness tells me, when I answer the door). Otherwise we're just stating our positions and reacting to what the other person says- a waste of our time.My purpose isn’t simply to reject physicalism for the sake of argument, but to show why I think it leaves something crucial out of the picture. — Wayfarer
This has no bearing on the what I said, except to the extent that Philosophy deals with more than ontology (the ONLY thing physicalism is dealing with).Physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis, not an effective paradigm for answering all questions about the human condition - your areas of interest and concern.
— Relativist
But surely philosophy is concerned with the whole range of questions about the human condition. The task of science is to explore and explain what exists; philosophy asks what it means to exist. — Wayfarer
I never said either of those things. You're AGAIN demonstrating your lack of understanding!Yet you’ve said repeatedly that physics provides the paradigm for metaphysics — that the “ontological grounding” is the ontology of physics. — Wayfarer
You're skipping over my key point, in that quote:Most of mental life is better considered from completely different perspectives. My issue is specifically with ontology: what actually exists. I think ontology can be set aside for the issues you raised. If this is wrong, and there is such a dependency then there's a burden to make an epistemological case for that ontology.
— Relativist
That “burden,” as you phrase it, could only be met by demonstrating the objective existence of some “non-physical thing.” — Wayfarer
↪Relativist
has forwarded a theory where all (or almost all - this is contentious) beliefs are inferences to the best explanation, and are thus probabilistic. — Leontiskos
My impression is that the things you have said are "left out" by physicalism are category error. Physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis, not an effective paradigm for answering all questions about the human condition - your areas of interest and concern.My purpose isn’t simply to reject physicalism for the sake of argument, but to show why I think it leaves something crucial out of the picture. — Wayfarer
Correct- I don't have a level of certainty for every judgement. Modest Bayesian epistemology doesn't assume that I do:I do not believe that you attach a level of certainty to each judgement you make — Metaphysician Undercover
Your criticism would be appropriate for orthodox Bayesianism, but doesn't apply to Modest Bayesianism. Indeed, it's a minority of the time that one would have any reason to consider level of certainty. The Kennedy Assassination question is one such example. But it could occur anytime one hears of evidence contrary to one's prior judgements- the rational thing to do is to reevaluate the judgement.The reason i say this, is that judgements are made for the purpose of acting, and you are going to act on the judgement, with a healthy respect for fallibility, whether you are 75% certain or 85% certain. In the vast majority of judgements, to figure out the degree of certitude would be a totally useless waste of time, therefore it is not practised. — Metaphysician Undercover
Utter nonsense. Physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis. It's a gross caricature to suggest this means physics can replace epistemology.I do not believe that the subjective nature of judgement is consistent with physicalism which holds that everything is potentially understandable through the objective science of physics — Metaphysician Undercover
You are quibbling with semantics. You interpreted "good reasons" to entail facts that contradicted my prior judgement. I explained this was not what I meant by the phrase. I have identified no facts that contradict physicalism. If I use your private lexicon, I would not label the point a "good reason" to reject physicalism, but rather that it constitutes relevant information that should be taken into account (as I previously described, and you ignored).The point though, is that you have gone beyond making a judgement with incomplete data, along with a healthy respect for fallibility, to making a judgement when you explicitly state that there are good reasons for the very opposite of what you have concluded in that judgement. This is not a matter of "incomplete data", it is a matter of ignoring evidence which is contrary to your conclusion. — Metaphysician Undercover
"Proven?" Do you mean that you judge some cosmological argument to offer irrefutable proof of God, or do you draw a less certain conclusion?I believe that the reality of God has already long ago been proven, by the cosmological argument. — Metaphysician Undercover
That's a claim often made by devotees of some cosmological arguments. Does the fact I proved you wrong about this lead you to reevaluate your conclusion, or is this irrelevant to the particular cosmological argument you embrace?Physicalist causation leads to infinite regress — Metaphysician Undercover
We disagree about how the word "belief" should be used.OK, that makes it clear then, You are admitting that you do not believe that physicalism is the best ontology, you believe that it might be the best ontology depending on how reality is understood. — Metaphysician Undercover
Judgements are always subjective. They are unavoidably based on background beliefs (judgements previously made). But I am always willing to explain why I believe it - thus opening myself to correction. This includes having those principles and background beliefs challenged, so that I can reevaluate. I did this here in this thread. I invite you to challenge the principles I apply (namely: IBE, and the selection criteria).And your claim that it is probably the best ontology is very subjective, base on cherry-picked principles. — Metaphysician Undercover
Judgement is unavoidably a subjective process, because it can only be made on the facts at one's disposal (background beliefs, methodology, and cognitive abilities). These aspects (entirely nature + nurture) account for the subjective nature of judgement, consistent with physicalism.Do you recognize that the fact that your judgement in this matter is very subjective, is very strong evidence that physicalism is not the best ontology? This is because physicalism does not account for the subjective aspect of judgement, and you are assigning principal position to it? — Metaphysician Undercover
I don't regard it as "wishy washy" to honestly explain the basis of my judgement, and admit fallibility, and be open to reasonable criticism. That's all I'm doing.If you really believed in physicalism you would be certain, due to the objectivity of what you believe in, rather than wishy washy as you demonstrate. For analogy, if you claim that you are atheist, then be atheist, rather than agnostic. — Metaphysician Undercover
When I say "I believe X" it means that I think X is the case, I think it is true. When I think X may be the case I say "I believe that X may be the case", or "X is possible". Do you recognize the difference between these two?
Neither says anything about certainty or uncertainty, — Metaphysician Undercover
Here again, you're treating all beliefs as categorical: that I can only choose to believe a proposition true or false, and these entail absolute commitments. My view is that each belief has a level of certainty. — Relativist
For many propositions you've evaluated, you will have some sense of whether it's certain, highly likely, unlikely, etc. The level of certainty is relevant to how one evaluates other, related information to draw conclusions. Consider a valid deductive argument from premises you considered possible, but unlikely, vs a conclusion drawn from premises that you consider highly likely.When i want to describe my certainty or uncertainty, I use those words. Do you recognize the difference between "I believe X", and "I believe X is possible", regardless of the degree of certitude? — Metaphysician Undercover
I have never said such a thing - you just assumed it. Multiple times I've said that I judge physicalism to be the metaphysical theory that is "inference to best explanation". An IBE is based on a set of facts, and in this case - the scope is universal: all facts about the world. Speculations are not facts.Remind me! Everything you've said in this exchange is predicated on equating the model of physics with a philosophy of everything. — Wayfarer
But how can you 'set aside' the posit that current physics accounts for 4% of the totality of the universe? And the entrenched controversies around the whole question of the interpretation of physics and what is says about the nature of reality? You really need to read some more in this subject. — Wayfarer
Red herring: it's irrelevant to the question.What I consider 'obvious' is that the observer or subject is implicitly present in physicalism, but has been suppressed for methodological reasons. — Wayfarer
Nevertheless, you reject the account I've given that universals exist immanently.So you embrace a the platonic principle that (at least some) abstractions have objective existence — Relativist
‘Transcendental’ is not the same as ‘objective’. Universals are transcendental because they transcend the specific forms in which they are instantiated....’ — Wayfarer
You don't seem to understand what I was debating with MetaphysicianUndercover: I was simply defending my semantics, that one can believe X despite there being "good reasons" why X might be false. Here's the sentence:He is saying the exact opposite of what you describe him as saying. He is saying that Churchlands and Dennett are 'clueless' for suggesting that 'there is no good reason to think that the mind will fail to yield to the same sort of reductive explanation in terms of which everything else in nature has been accounted for. — Wayfarer
I saw no reason to state the obvious. You figured out exactly what I had in mind (your stated example), as I expected you would.To make the JFK example comparable, you'd have to chose one as the best explanation, as the one you believe, then also claim that there is good reason to believe the other. For example, the best explanation, and the one I believe in, is a single person acting alone, however there is good reason to believe in more than one person — Metaphysician Undercover
Acknowledging there are reasons why I might be wrong is being intellectually honest; that is not a contradiction.Once you chose one, as the one that you believe in, you cannot claim that there is good reason to believe the other, without contradicting your own belief. — Metaphysician Undercover
That might be appropriate for an extreme skeptic, who chooses only to believe things that can be proven to be logically necessary. IBE does not entail logical necessity. I believe Oswald acted alone, but I know I'm possibly wrong. If I merely said it was possible he acted alone, I would not be representing my view as accurrately.suggest you adjust your claim to "it is possible that physicalism is the best ontology". — Metaphysician Undercover
In Armstrong's ontology:It’s ontological but not physical - an intellectual act which enables the recognition of abstractions. The property can only be recognised by a mind capable of counting. — Wayfarer
I was giving a simplified account to avoid having to describe quantum fields. I'll rephrase it:Nowadays atoms are conceptualised as excitations of fields, and the ontological status of fields is far from settled — Wayfarer
I made it perfectloy explicit:
There is something very obvious that it excludes, as I've already said time and again. And you don't notice or acknowledge what it is — Wayfarer
No, I'm not. There's nothing relative about truth; my point was simply that it's a mental concept, not some platonic object.Truth is not a property that objects have; rather it is a label we apply to some statements. Logic applies to statements. Meaning is a mental association, not a physical property. Intentions are behavioral.
— Relativist
Well your screen name is ‘Relativist’, and you're preaching relativism. — Wayfarer
You have an understanding of physicalism that is biased and false. I've explained the actual relationship between science and physicalism, and you choose to ignore what I said and repeat your false understanding.As for 'special pleading', it's physicalism that does this. It appeals to physics as the basis of its ontology, but when presented with the inconvenient fact that today's physics seems to undermine physicalism, it will say it is 'not bound by physics'. — Wayfarer
There are good reasons to believe JFK was killed by a single person, acting alone.Yours does entail contradiction, that's the point, just like my example. Please explain how you think the two differ — Metaphysician Undercover
So you embrace a the platonic principle that (at least some) abstractions have objective existence that is independent of the objects that exhibit them. On the other hand, and as you know, I see no reason to believe such things. Immanent universals are considerably more parsimonious.It accounts for everything known to exist in the universe, except possibly dark matter and dark energy.
— Relativist
And numbers. — Wayfarer