• References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    You definitely discussed "state of affairs" ontology with me, in your reference to an initial state of affairs. You even defined it for me:

    By "state" or "state of affairs", I am referring to the the totality of existence at a point of time
    Metaphysician Undercover
    Yes I did, and this is not the definition used by Armstrong. That's why I said:

    I hadn't discussed "state of affairs" ontology with you, so had not used the term that way.Relativist
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    Your definition of "state of affairs", as stated in your reply to me, does not support your claim that it is the most fundamental concept in ontology.Metaphysician Undercover

    I hadn't discussed "state of affairs" ontology with you, so had not used the term that way.

    But since you brought it up, I didn't say "it was the most fundamental thing in ontology". I said it was the most fundamental think in Armstrong's physicalist ontology.

    Your definition can be broken down in analysis into two distinct aspects, objects and their relations. These are two very different concepts, and since "state of affairs" is made up of these two, they are each more fundamental than "state of affairs".Metaphysician Undercover
    You don't understand what a state of affairs is in Armstrong's ontology. I'm not interested in taking the time to explain it with you, but you can get a sense of it in the Wikipedia Article on Armstrong.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    I don’t take issue with physicalism because you hold it, but because I believe it’s a mistaken philosophical view.Wayfarer
    Remember that I never set out to convince you physicalism is true. My objectives were to help you understand it, and to provide my justification for believing it.

    I believe I’ve given you many grounds on which I and others believe physicalism to be a mistaken philosophical view, but that you don’t recognize the arguments.
    Your reasons seem to boil down to fact that it's inconsistent with your other beliefs. It's perfectly reasonable to interpret new information in terms of one's background beliefs, and it's justified to to reject a proposal on that basis. But this rejection is subjective: epistemically contingent on your particular background beliefs (subsumed in your overall noetic structure).

    But this means YOUR reasons to reject it do not falsify MY beliefs. And vice versa: my reasons to reject your position are epistemically contingent upon my background beliefs. The difference is that I recognize this contingency - and that's why I can respect your position. You overlook this contingency, and hence you conflate your subjective basis for rejecting physicalism with an objective falsification.

    If you happen to think you are rejecting it on some meta-ontological principles, so they rise above subjective judgement, then state these principles and be prepared to show how they apply to your theory.

    The term "physicalism" is used largely for historical reasons. These are discussed in the SEP article on physicalism. Personally, I make sense of it by considering proper subsets of the sorts of things commonly treated as existing: spiritual/supernatural objects (e.g. angels), abstract objects, and physical objects. Physicalists deny the existence of the first two.Relativist

    The argument is that the reference to "spiritual/supernatural objects" is a category error. That by declaring the 'spiritual or supernatural' to consist of 'objects' you are making it an empty set.Wayfarer

    What categories should I have used when explaining how "I made sense" of the meaning of "physical"- after you indicated I'd "left the meaning of 'physical' indeterminate"? I referenced categories of hypothetical objects that many take for granted:

    -supernatural/spiritual objects- a common belief about God and angels
    -abstract objects - a common belief of platonists

    So again, this expresses only how I make sense of it. That's apparently inadequate for you because you have different view - but it's a view you haven't explained. You seem to be implying we should treat "spiritual or supernatural" differently - not as objects, but as -------what? You haven't said. Don't leave it "indeterminate" and vague.

    Although you charge me with vagueness, I can’t help noticing that physicalism itself is equally vague, if not more so. When it defines “physical” as “whatever physics will someday describe,” or as a “state of affairs” (which in practice means “whatever happens to be the case”), how is that not vague?Wayfarer
    You're either being disingenuous or you didn't make an effort to understand what I said. I precisely defined the way "state of affairs" is used in the ontology, distinguishing it from the common use of the term: 1) as a term that applies to everything that exists, from the foundational to the most complex; 2) that it consists of a particular, with its properties and relations

    State of affairs (so defined) is the most fundamental concept in the ontology. Armstrong labelled his book, "A World of States of Affairs".

    I referenced this model when referring to immanent universals, and pointed out that quantum fields fit the model. The ontology hangs together quite consistenly, and if you don't see that - then you were premature in dropping the topic. There's nothing vague about the ontology itself, so any perceived vagueness could be cleared up. No one's compelling you to pursue it further, but recognize the folly of trying to falsify something you don't understand.

    I did not say, "physical is what physics would someday describe". I said that an idealized, complete, perfect physics would do so (I also said this is unachieveable). I described this in terms of everything in existence being causally connected- this being the basis for my claim about a complete, perfected physics. If that wasn't sufficiently clear, you could have asked - but that was when you'd decided you didn't have anything more to say about it. I will offer this- my definition of naturalism:

    Naturalism is a metaphysical system that assumes as a first principle that the natural world comprises the totality of reality. The natural world consists of ourselves, the world that is reflected in our senses, and everything that is causally connected through laws of nature.

    You naively complained (in effect) that physicalism didn't provide a catalog what exists, but you have said very little about what you believe exists. You suggested that maybe the moon doesn't exist when we aren't looking at it! I get the phenomonolgy point, but we're talking ontology- are you not willing to commit to the existence of the objects of ordinary experience? Do you deny the existence of astronomical objects? Do you propose skepticism on everything other than your mind? This lack of clarity is considerably broader than the finer points of physicalism.

    I am left wondering: do you deny the existence of objects, and types of objects, that have been identified by physics to date? I mean this in the falibilist terms associated with science, but also in terms of being justified as belief by the strength of its epistemology.

    Of course it sounds vague when what you want is something very specific, determinable by scientific enquiry, an 'atomic fact'. Questions of this kind are always elusive, that's why the positivists wanted to declare them all meaningless as a matter of principle. They're difficult in a way different to technical and scientific questions.Wayfarer
    You don't need to put it in scientific terms, but you need to be as "determinate" as you expected me to be. So far, you've made no specific claims (other than the implication that you believe your mind exists), just vague allusions. I haven't noticed any specific claims about what exists. If I've overlooked it, remind me. If you can't do this is straightforward terms, then understand why this is problematic.

    The only thing being "transformed" is the mind of the person, not the external world.
    — Relativist

    There, again, is your belief that the world is a certain way, that it has a determinate existence external to your cognition of it. But this is just what has been called into question by both cognitive science and quantum physics.
    Wayfarer

    You're being unreasonable. You had said, "It involves being in a deep, transformative relationship with the world, participating fully in something that is wider than you."

    Why would I think this "transformative relationship" involves something more than a change to the mind that is involved, and the impact we have through our actions? The sentence makes perfect sense in those terms. I did suspect you had something more in mind, but I shouldn't have to guess.

    My point of view: we are part of the world; part of the earthly ecosphere. So OF COURSE we are participants. This much is consistent with naturalism. So describe what you mean about this participation that renders it inconsistent with naturalism.

    we do not see the phenomenon 'in itself', as it is, independently of our observation of it. We're involved in producing the outcome.Wayfarer
    We're only involved in producing the contents of our minds. And we have employed our minds to get an understanding of what exists outside of it. Are you suggesting this is futile? I don't think you are, but it's consistent with your vague claims. If you agree it's not futile, then what IS your point?

    [Quote Whereas in classical physics, we're at arms length from the outcome, we can maintain that sense of separateness which objectivity requires. But that sense of scientific detachment and objectivity, is also very much a cultural artifact, typical of a very specific period in history and culture. It is also where objectivist physicalism is located.[/quote]
    This seems like a vague reference to your vague cocept of "participatory' . Is there anything outside your mind that you commit to existing? Is it justified to believe there are planetary systems in Andromeda? If so, how do we "participate" with these?

    The fact that you will invariably interpret this as being a causal sequence where consciousness is one thing, the effect another, is the same issue as treating the spiritual or supernatural as 'an object'. As I said, requires perspectival shift to see why.Wayfarer
    Of course it requires a perspectival shift, but you need to explain this alternate perspective! Vague allusions doesn't do it. Vague reference to phenomenonlogy doesn't do it whe you also haven't acknowledged the actual existence of anything external to yourself. I expect you do, but if so- explain how we can know this despite the phenomenology. This is why it's vague.
    [b)You've provided no reason to think this is a false distinction[/b]
    — Relativist

    I just have! I'm trying to convey a difficult point about the nature and limitations of objective thought, but everything I'm saying is interpolated into an idiom within which only what is considered objective is admissable.
    Wayfarer
    No, you did not provide a reason. You merely suggested there's an alternative perspective that makes different distinctions. You would need to outline this perspective, the distinctions it makes, and explain how it's superior (not just different).

    Since you acknowledge it's a difficult point, don't blame me for being the obstacle to understanding. You've treated my questions as obstinacy, but all I'm doing is reflecting back how I interpret what you said. You haven't given me an alternative, interpretive framework.

    But you also need to establish some common ground, such as by identifying some things we both agree exist.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    Vagueness is suspicious: it tends to be both unconvincing and incorrigible. Unconvincing, because of the lack of clarity needed to analyze and evaluate it. Incorrigible because one can twist the vague meanings on the fly in order to counter objections.Relativist
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    I understand that - what is physical is defined in contrast with or distinct from what is supernatural or spiritual. That's a part of my point - it is an aspect of the 'Cartesian division' which I've already referred to. I'm trying to explain what is wrong with the expresssion 'spiritual/supernatural objects...'Wayfarer
    Why does it matter, if it's a category that maps to an empty set?

    There is no objective existent which corresponds with 'spirit' because (again whether it is real or not) it transcends the subject-object division.Wayfarer
    That's an ontological claim: you seem to agree there are no spiritual objects, but hint that "spiritual" applies in some vague way to at some vague things. Stop being vague and describe what you mean, and explain why I should accept your claims.

    Vagueness is suspicious: it tends to be both unconvincing and incorrigible. Unconvincing, because of the lack of clarity needed to analyze and evaluate it. Incorrigible because one can twist the vague meanings on the fly in order to counter objections.

    There are four ways of knowing: propositional, perspectival, procedural and participatory (ref.)Participatory knowledge is the knowledge of what it’s like to occupy a role in your environment or relationships. Vervaeke considers this to be the most profound of the four types of knowledge. It involves being in a deep, transformative relationship with the world, participating fully in something that is wider than you.Wayfarer
    The only thing being "transformed" is the mind of the person, not the external world. Sure: we are actors in the world, and this seems important because it could positively influence our behaviour - protecting the environment, the welfare of other species, etc. However, this is an epistemological paradigm with moral overtones. It doesn't falsify the ontology I'm defending; nor does it entail an alternative one. Rather - it reenforces the utility of fit-for-purpose paradigms.

    Of course, this is all light years away from David Armstrong's physicalismWayfarer
    So is also the sensory evaluation of wine, economics, and architecture. Each topic is explored and discussed within their respective frameworks. Assemble a group of people with similar education on one of these topics and they can have a meaningful discussion, despite having different religions and ethnic backgrounds, because they share the same topic-central basis. I think Trump is a narcissistic, amoral criminal, irrespective of the ontological grounding of these characteristics. I suspect your views aren't too different.

    it still marks a break from naïve objectivism (where objects are assumed to have definite properties regardless of measurement).Wayfarer
    There are still definite properties, but these properties are not simple, scalar numbers. Indeed this is at odds with the way we perceive, and interact with, the world.

    And then, there's the all-too-obvious point that all such measuring devices and instruments are extensions of human sensory abilities. 'The apparatus has no meaning unless the human observer understands it and interprets its reading,' as Schrödinger put it.Wayfarer
    But "meaning" is only intra-mental. It influences how we interact with the world outside our minds, but there's no direct ontological relation between this "meaning" (whatever the ontology of it) and the system it applies to. Furthermore, false understandings influence our interactions just as much as accurate ones.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be latching onto the
    "consciousness causes collapse" interpretation of QM to argue for a more direct quasi-magical role for consciousness in the world-at-large. This certainly can't be treated as evidence in support of your point of view because you're selecting it BECAUSE it's consistent with your point of view.

    I'm trying to draw attention to the implied understanding in your framing of the issue, of the separateness of mind and world. Universals, in the medieval account, are the way in which the intelligible features of the world are absorbed by intellectWayfarer

    You've provided no reason to think this is a false distinction. Meaning/understanding are intra-mental.

    I accounted for our perceiving of universals through the way of abstraction. This process does help us understand aspects of the world, and I've acknowledged that the mental state.associated with a 90 degree angle is distinct from the actual relation between walls. But the words we use are referring to a quality that is actually present in the wall-wall system that is also present in other systems irrespective of whether they have been perceived. It is that quality that is the universal. The walls have no ontological dependence on the perception, the abstraction, nor the general understanding we have. Feel free to argue otherwise, but don't gloss over the ontological (or at least perceived) qualities of the things we are perceiving. If my implied objectification is problematic for you, then give me an account in your terms - including the de-objectification.

    Aquinas, building on Aristotle, maintained that true knowledge arises from a real union between knower and known.... Thus, knowledge is not an external mapping of the world but an assimilation, a union that bridges the gap between subject and object through shared intelligibility.
    I see this as a poetic description of the processes of abstracting and understanding, perfectly consistent, in essentials, with my less unpoetic rendition. If you think I'm missing something, then spell it out. As noted: vagueness hurts your case.

    That’s precisely the issue: the category “states of affairs” is elastic enough to accommodate whatever physics happens to throw up. It’s not doing explanatory work so much as retrofitting itself to whatever the latest theory says exists.Wayfarer
    LOL! Of course it is sufficiently "elastic"! The specifics are a matter for empirical investigation. The notion that everything that exists is a state of affairs IS explanatory - it tells us something about the nature of existence: properties (color, electric charge, mass, ...) aren't existents; neither are relations (electromagnetic attraction, distance, angle...). Further, there's an acknowledgement that there are universals; nominalism is rejected; foundational tropes are rejected.

    There are other implications: it is contrary to the notion essentialism and natural kinds. It accounts for the nature of individual identity. And, of course, it accounts for natural laws, which in turn account for regularities in nature.

    In short: it explains what a metaphysical system needs to explain. It doesn't need to explain or predict the objects that physics explains and predicts.

    Any metaphysical system that failed to be sufficiently "elastic" to fit accepted science would be FALSIFIED by science. Not because science is necessarily right, but because it is the best available means of identifying what exists, thanks to its strong epistemological methodology.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    Furthermore, I don’t think it’s helpful to frame this as though my philosophical outlook simply reduces to my personality or my particular “areas of concern” which is essentially a form of ad hominem argument. IWayfarer
    An hominem would be an irrational judgement that your reasoning was rooted in something about you that has little or logical relation to the matter at hand. My comment was based on giving you the benefit of the doubt that your judgement is rooted in your noetic structure (the sum total of a person's beliefs, plus the relationships between those beliefs, plus the relationships or the relations between those beliefs)

    Our noetic structure will always constitute the lens through which we make epistemic judgements. We all do this - there's no negative connotations. It's does not imply irrationality. I respect that your noetic structure differs from mine, and would not suggest this means you're objectively wrong.

    Contrast this with the fact that you do not give me the same benefit of the doubt, and openly disrespect my views. And you do this despite your failure to identify a single legitimate flaw in my position. You seem to conflate a reason that you reject something with a knock-down refutation of it.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    I have the proof which I believe is irrefutable. You dispute the truth of one of my premises. The burden is on you to demonstrate that the premise is false.Metaphysician Undercover
    So you're just making the modest claim that the argument convinces you of god's existence. You are not claiming that it constitutes undeniable proof that no rational person could deny.

    Nevertheless, I did explain why it might be false: the possibility that there was an initial state of affairs that was physical (no gods). So there are at least 2 logically valid explanations for the existence of the universe: (A) God ; or (B) a physical initial state.

    You haven't proven (B) false, so you should acknowledge that it is possibly true, and that this implies God possibly does not exist. Do you acknowledge this?
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    What you actually need to do to prove that the premise is untrue,Metaphysician Undercover
    On the contary. You assumed the burden of proof when you said:

    I believe the cosmological argument provides irrefutable proof of GodMetaphysician Undercover

    An "irrefutable proof" can't simply establish that the conclusion is possibly true; it must show that the conclusion is necessarily true. My burden is easy: I merely need to show that one of your premises is possibly false.

    If you don't understand that, then you don't understand logic.

    That does not affect the argument. You just switched terminology from the existence of a physical thing, to a "state of affairs". By the inductive principle, the potential for each "state of affairs" is prior in time to that state of affairs. And, it needs an actual cause. Therefore even the proposed "initial state of affairs" has an actual cause which is prior to it.Metaphysician Undercover
    By "state" or "state of affairs", I am referring to the the totality of existence at a point of time. This would include all physical things and all gods (if they exist). What I've shown is that: it is possible that there was an initial state of affairs even if no gods exist.

    You now claim an initial state of affairs "needs" an actual cause. Your burden is to show it logically impossible for something to exist uncaused. You can't. You're simply assuming it. I noted that deistic "proofs" depend on unproveable metaphysical assumptions.
    By presenting an alternative you hadn't considered, I conclusively proved your conclusion false.
    — Relativist

    You haven't presented any alternative. You only irrationally denied the inductive logic as black swan fallacy. However, there is no black swan fallacy here, because all experience and all physical evidence points to the truth of the premise
    Metaphysician Undercover
    And to think: you called ME a "dimwit".

    If only white swans have been seen, one might infer that only white swans exist. But it's fallacious to conclude it is impossible for other colors of swans to exist. This is known as "the problem of induction

    I profess to be a "law realist": that laws of nature actually exist, and this explains why we see regularities in nature. But law realism is a metaphysical hypothesis; I do not claim it is proven by the evidence - I only say that I judge it to be the best explanation of the evidence. I don't know how you account for the regularities in nature, but however you do- it can only be hypothesis.

    In infinite possibility each must be equally probable to allow that all are possible.Metaphysician Undercover
    That is mathematically incorrect. An infinite set of possibilities could fit any probability distribution.

    However, an initial state is also conceptually possible: we can conceptualize something just existing by brute fact*.
    — Relativist

    This is false. We have an idea of what "existing" means. And, it is derived from our observations of the physical world. If we move to "conceptualize something existing by brute fact", then we violate, or contradict the meaning of "existing" which is supported by observations of our world.
    Metaphysician Undercover
    There are various ideas about what it means to exist. My position is that existence entails objects which have intrinsic properties and that has relations to all other objects (at least indirectly). A brute fact initial state would have properties that accounted for its potential to develop into subsequent states of affairs. IOW: it initiates (=causes) the subsequent causal chain that you misinterpret.

    I bolded "my position" to highlight the fact that I not claiming to prove to you I'm necessarily correct. But you need to prove my stated position to be impossible, given that you claimed to be able to prove God's existence.


    Of course one might stipulate, like in the case of mathematical axioms, what "existing" means, and proceed to a conceptualization of something which exists simply because it is posited as existing, but what good would that do? This conceptualized existing thing, which exists because it is posited as existing by brute fact, would be something completely distinct and unrelated to the actual physical existence which we knowMetaphysician Undercover
    Nope. The initial state is causally linked to everything that exists.

    Again, this is false. Yes, we have two contradictory metaphysical claims. However, mine is proven through reference to the actual physical world, and the strongest inductive principle which we can knowMetaphysician Undercover
    An initial state is a black swan: it falsifies your inductive inference, and you haven't proven an initial state impossible.

    Your understanding of the big bang theory is flawed. The theory of the big bang is based on general relativity: the size of the (currently) visible universe approaches zero at increasingly earlier states. So there's a mathematical limit of 0 size and infinite density. This entails a mathematical singularity - from which physicists infer general relativity breaks down. They also note that below a certain radius, quantum effects would dominate. This is currently unanalyzable because there is no accepted theory that reconciles general relativity and quantum mechanics.
    — Relativist

    i don't see the flaw
    Metaphysician Undercover
    Then watch this short video by cosmologist Sean Carroll:
    https://youtube.com/shorts/uDB0_oIDUds?si=I6d3GYd3nhDtPKMC
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    The actual science is independent of all the metaphysical claims you made.
    — Relativist

    Utter bollocks. But go ahead and back your assertion up with the argument that might sustain it
    apokrisis
    You responded to one of my posts with a set of unsupported assertions that were contrary to things I had said. Now you expect me to prove you wrong. I'm not playing that game.

    If your intent was to simply state disagreement, consider it duly noted. If you'd like to defend your claims, feel free. Otherwise we can just agree to disagree.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    The observations you refer to are entirely within a temporal context, such that for any observed object, X, we observed a time (Tp) prior to its existence. So we can conclude that the state of affairs at Tp necessarily had the potential to produce X.

    Your inductive inference applies to all cases in which an object comes into existence from a state of affairs in which it did not exist. It does not apply to an initial state of affairs (Si); because there was no prior time at which Si did not exist. There's no objective reason to believe an initial, uncaused, physical state of affairs could not have existed.

    I have just conclusively shown that your argument is non-sequitur.
    — Relativist

    No, you have just presented me with an irrelevant and false proposition, that an initial state of affairs is required.
    Metaphysician Undercover
    See the part in bold, above. My assertion was modest: an initial state of affairs is possible. Your claim required it to be impossible: it was inductive inference, so treating it as an ironclad truth committed the Black Swan fallacy. By presenting an alternative you hadn't considered, I conclusively proved your conclusion false. You have now attempted to prove there to be an unrelated reason to deny the possibility of an initial state, to rationalize your error:

    The irrationality of an initial state of affairs, in the absolute sense, with no prior time, demonstrates that any proposed initial state, itself requires a prior cause.
    Now you're attempting to prove an initial, physical state is impossible based on determinism (the premise that every state of the universe was caused by a prior state). Determinism in the universe is a consequence of natural law (e.g. thermodynamics, among others). If you were to claim that natural law necessitates prior causes for every physical state then you would be committing the fallacy of composition: assuming that a principle (or law) that apply to parts also apply to the whole. So you have to depend on metaphysical law. Let's examine.

    It is conceivable that there is metaphysical law that mirrors determinism, so we should agree that it is conceptually possible. Something that is conceptually possible is a candidate for being metaphysically possible. However, an initial state is also conceptually possible: we can conceptualize something just existing by brute fact*. So an initial state is at least a conceptual possibility, and therefore also a candidate for being metaphysically possible.

    So we have two contradictory metaphysical claims. Both are conceivable, neither is provable (short of making additional assumptions*), but one must be false. Reasoning can take us no further - so you can't rationally claim to show an initial state is metaphysically impossible.

    I could go further and show that an infinite past is logically impossible, but it's not necessary since I've already thoroughly refuted your claim.

    BTW, An uncaused, initial state of affairs does not rule out God. An intentional creator is logically and conceptually possible*.

    That is exactly the case with the proposed "Big Bang". It must be either reduced to a nonphysical mathematical "singularity" as the initial state (which is irrational because its a mathematical, nonphysical "state"), or else understood as having a prior cause, God or some other sort of universe creating mechanism.
    Your understanding of the big bang theory is flawed. The theory of the big bang is based on general relativity: the size of the (currently) visible universe approaches zero at increasingly earlier states. So there's a mathematical limit of 0 size and infinite density. This entails a mathematical singularity - from which physicists infer general relativity breaks down. They also note that below a certain radius, quantum effects would dominate. This is currently unanalyzable because there is no accepted theory that reconciles general relativity and quantum mechanics.

    There are a variety of hypotheses about "pre-big bang" conditions, and what laws would apply. At this point, it is impossible to know, but your claim is a contrivance to "prove" what you already believe.
    ________________
    * If you are schooled in other deistic arguments, you will next claim that brute facts are metaphysically impossible. If you choose to do that, please make an effort to identify the metaphysical assumptions you are making. Every deistic argument depends on metaphysical assumptions, and this is why it is impossible to prove God's existence - those assumptions can always be denied; they cannot be proven. The same is true of trying to prove God's non-existence. I recognize this, and that's why I defend my beliefs as an inference to best explanation.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    This is why physicalism is a very problematic perspective. Mathematical axioms assume the existence of mathematical objects.Metaphysician Undercover
    The fact that the language of mathematics treats abstractions as "existing" does not entail that they do.

    This indicates that what you state as the approach of physicalism, "physicalism defers to physics the identification of what exists", is mistaken.Metaphysician Undercover
    A physicist making a claim about the ontological status of mathematical abstractions is doing metaphysics, not physics. It's a question that cannot be settled by empirical evidence or scientific methodology.

    how anyone portrays the ontology of modern physics is just a matter of personal preference.Metaphysician Undercover
    Agreed.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    There a great many problems with your claims, but they boil down to you (and possibly some) physicists making metaphysical claims. The actual science is independent of all the metaphysical claims you made.

    One more thing: you imply that there's some consensus on some particular metaphysical model (among physicists? Among philosophers?) I sincerely doubt that. I know it's not true of philosophers - a majority embrace, or lean toward, physicalism.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    But again, please understand what I see as the fundamental category error in this formulation. By casting the non-physical in terms of 'spiritual/supernatural objects', you are already framing it within the paradigm of objectivism - the assumption that whatever is real, is, or could be, an object of cognition....empiricist presuppositions ...Wayfarer
    I brought up the "spiritual/supernatural" because there are common beliefs about it, and my purpose was to explain what it means to be physical.

    So you question objectivism. I don't see any reason why I would. Sure, it's a backgound assumption, so add it to the set of physicalist postulates, and we still get a coherent theory. Coherence is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for truth.

    This is a metaphilosophical point concerning questions about how philosophy itself is conceived.Wayfarer
    A meta-analysis would be great, but I don't think you're doing that. Rather, you're presenting
    an alternative paradigm. I'll try to understand if it is coherent, but also if it answers more questions than it raises.


    All that in mind, “the nature of being” can be understood very differently. In phenomenological (and also Indian) philosophy, being is participatory: something we are always already enacting, not a detached object of analysisWayfarer
    How does our "participation" in existence differ from the participation of the sun? The sun has had a key role in the development of life on earth. Of course, it wasn't by choice.

    Do you objectify the sun? Does it exist independently of you? It's not clear if the question is answerable in your paradigm.

    The challenge is that we are so immersed in this orientation that we don’t see it; it provides the spectacles through which questions are viewed. Philosophy, to my mind, means learning to look at those spectacles, not only through them.Wayfarer
    All paradigms (spectacles) are interpretive frameworks, including a paradigm of "participatory existence".

    But the upshot is, there are things that are subjectively real, that is, can only be known first-person, but which are as foundational as any purported 'atomic objects of cognition'. This is what we designate Being, which includes the irreducible fact of the subject to whom the objective world is disclosed.Wayfarer
    The term, "subjectively real" seems problematic. The "contents" of my mind (my mental states) are objectively real - but known only to me. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you are simply suggesting the converse of objectivism. I'm waiting to hear some epistemic virtues, besides "possible".

    nothing is said about what is spiritual, that might only be because, with Wittgenstein, there is 'that of which we cannot speak', but which is nevertheless of foundational significance in philosophy. But the upshot is, there are things that are subjectively real, that is, can only be known first-person, but which are as foundational as any purported 'atomic objects of cognition'. This is what we designate Being, which includes the irreducible fact of the subject to whom the objective world is disclosed.Wayfarer
    One must assume the "spiritual" exists in order to consider it of significance. I get it, that you referred to it being foundational to philosophy- but in that respect, philosophy's foundation was a product of its time. It's moved on, for good reasons. I gather that you're challenging the direction it took, but swimming against the current is extremely challenging.

    my take on universals is that they are intrinsic to the way in which the mind assimilates and interprets sensory experience. Intellectual abstractions, the grasp of abstract relations and qualities, are what binds rational conceptions together to form coherent ideas. But these are neither 'in the world' nor mere pyschological constructs, they are universal structures of intelligibility disclosed through consciousness. (As you've mentioned Edward Feser's blog, see his Think, McFly, Think.)Wayfarer
    I've previously read the Feser article. The general problem I have with it is that he framed thinking in a paradigm incompatible with materialism, and then showed how it's incompatible with materislism.

    The paradigm is potentially useful, and probably coherent - but it didn't help me understand your stance on universals. I get it, that the abstractions aren't in the world (outside our minds) and you regard this mental aspect as irreducible, but the concept of each universal has something to do with the world outside ourselves - does it not? I claim that the universal "90 degrees" that I conceptualize is exhibited in the walls of my room. The abstraction is distinct from the walls that exhibit it, but it describes an aspect of the walls- and this same as aspect is exhibited in many places. This exhibition/instantistion is omitted from your account.

    Even the competing interpretations are trying to account for the fact of observer-dependency,Wayfarer
    No. The interpretations account for the measurements. Referring to this as "observer dependency" implies there's something special in the relation between a human observer and the quantum system being measured. The more objective description is "entanglement" - which occurs when a quantum system interacts with a classical object.

    What is real, is a range of possibilities expressed by the wave-function (ψ), which are condensed into a single value by registration or measurement (the so-called 'wavefunction collapse'Wayfarer
    I disagree with your claim that "what is real is a range of possibilities". The possibilities you refer to are predictions of what will be measured, when complementary properties (like position and momentum) are measured. What is real is the quantum system. Were there no entanglements with a classical object (such as occurs with a measurement) the system would continue down the deterministic path of its wave function.

    This does imply there's an aspect of reality that seems inscrutable: what is happening when entanglements occur. Is the wavefunction collapsing? Is there a branching to many worlds? Are there remote, hidden variables? All we can do is engage in metaphysical speculation.

    So when you write that “particulars are reducible … all the way down to atomic states of affairs,” you’re really invoking a metaphysical picture inherited from classical physics. But precisely that picture is what quantum mechanics has called into question, forcing contemporary physicalism to uncouple itself from physics as such. Which, again, implies that Armstrong's 'atomic facts' are conceptual placeholders.Wayfarer
    Again: no. Physicalism doesn't depend on particles being the ontological ground. According to current physics, quantum fields are more fundamental than particles. Quantum fields fit the state-of-affairs model: they are particulars with properties and relations to other quantum fields.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    You answer that, in light of your support for the Trump Administration's threats to ABC.

    Personally, I do not think those in power should wield that power to limit free speech. I believe that is likely unconstitutional, but absolutely believe it is wrong.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    , I’m pointing out that this is the world that people like Kimmel built. You want censorship you get censorship.NOS4A2
    I don't want censorship, but I have a more nuanced view of free speech than you. And I'm not a hypocrite - like you. I do not, and have not, advocated silencing people like Kirk for their speech. I support rebutting that speech, as I do with you. But if Kirk's speech, which clearly exhibits prejudice, is allowable - why wouldn't satire?
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    US attorney resigns amid pressure from Trump after sources say he refused to charge NY AG Letitia James

    Trump and his Congressional sycophants accused the "Biden Justice Dept" as being "weaponized" against conservatives, on the basis of the fact that Trump was investigated and indicted. By painting it as "Biden's" DOJ, they sought to link Biden to it. It was "Biden's DOJ" only to the extent that he appointed the AG (a former nominee to the Supreme Court respected for his legal acumen) and a few other top positions. There was never one hint of Biden trying to influence any DOJ actions. Biden continued the post-Watergate norm of an independent DOJ. Presidents set priorities (e.g. prioritizing civil rights violations, or prioritizing violations of immigration law), but they have refrained from directing specific investigations or prosecutions.

    Based on this false claim that "Biden's DOJ" targeted conservatives and victimized Trump, Trump & Co are explicitly, and unequivocally, politicizing and weaponizing the DOJ.

    On a related note: a family member of mine is an FBI agent, stationed in Washington DC. He has spent most of his 15+ years with them in foreign intelligence (specifically not law enforcement, as some agents do). For the past few years, his full time assignment has been on one specific country- one of our biggest rivals in the world. He now has to spend 2 days each week patrolling DC, so he now spends only 60% of his time working intelligence. All for Trump's political theater.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    Not sure what to make of this yet...

    Charlie Kirk and The Hate Speech Algorithm (— Evey Winters · Sep 18, 2025)
    jorndoe

    Fascinating analysis! I'm also not sure exactly what to make of it, other than that this seems to be a promising methodology and that her general observations of Kirk seem to have an objective basis.

    But I'll focus on one statement I think problematic:
    "There’s almost no way he wasn’t aware of his impacts during his lifetime."

    Of course there's ways he could be unaware! First, it's not something Kirk would have been interested in, so he might not have given it a thought. Alternatively (or in addition), he may have had an point of view that's an idealization of NOS4A2's: free speech absolutism and holding speech blameless no matter how extreme it is. Such a perspective would deny any relationship between one man's speech and another's actions. Arguably, the statistics are evidence against that point of view, but anything short of deductive proof can be rationalized.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    if what you mean by “physical” is not fixed by physics itself, then what anchors it?Wayfarer

    If physicalism transcends physics in the sense you describe, then these postulates are not discoveries of physics but metaphysical commitments. In that case, why call the framework ‘physical’ rather than simply metaphysical realism?Wayfarer
    (Your first sentence is correct.)

    Mathematical realism is less specific: a dualist could be a mathematical realist.

    If the claim is that “physical reality = the totality of reality,” then the term “physical” is carrying a great deal of weight. But if what you mean by “physical” is not fixed by physics itself, then what anchors it? Otherwise, “physicalism” looks less like an ontology than a promissory note: asserting that whatever is real must fall under the heading of the physical, even when the meaning of “physical” is left indeterminate.Wayfarer
    The metaphysical system "physicalism" doesn't include a catalog of what exists. I don't think any metaphysical system does that, except for some particular existent, like God in Thomist metaphysics.

    Physics identifies things that exist (to the extent that physics tells us something about what exists- per OSR). IMO, any metaphysical system would be suspect if it denied the findings of physics or the non-existence of the objects of ordinary experience. Perhaps an idealist would disagree, but that's another whole discussion.

    So physicalism defers to physics the identification of what exists. IMO there's no epistemically superior means of doing so. That deference doesn't entail an ontological commitment to the specific things physics identifies.

    Everything that physics theorizes to exist is causally interconnected. Physicalism is a thesis that the complete set of causally connected things comprise the totality of reality. It seems to me it is this interconnectedness that is the anchor.

    The term "physicalism" is used largely for historical reasons. These are discussed in the SEP article on physicalism. Personally, I make sense of it by considering proper subsets of the sorts of things commonly treated as existing: spiritual/supernatural objects (e.g. angels), abstract objects, and physical objects. Physicalists deny the existence of the first two.

    Lowe argued this borders on incoherence: how can one and the same entity be wholly present in two places at once?Wayfarer
    That is the common issue that is brought up. There are 3 pushbacks:
    1) if a property (e.g. redness) is just a single existent, it means each particular red object requires an ontic relation to that existent. This entails a more complex model of existents (i.e. it's less parsimonious).
    2) it raises the question of "where" they exist. There's no location in the physical world for them, so one must (unparsimoniously) assume another type of existent - and there to be ontic relations that bridge to it from the physical world.
    3) Multiple instantiations of a property is intuitive: we observe multiple objects that all exhibit redness, -1 electric charge, 90 degree angles, etc. And these properties seem both intrinsic and necessary to being the object that it is.

    He advocates a weak form of immanence, where universals are always instantiated but are not themselves located in space and time. Universals, in Lowe, are not reducible to particulars nor are they spatiotemporal. That’s why he says they are “always instantiated” but not literally in space and time.Wayfarer
    I'm struggling to see how this differs from what I said. If Lowe believes properties are not particulars, then what are they? Armstrong says they are constituents of particulars. Particulars are reducible to simpler particulars, all the way down to the ground: atomic particulars/states of affairs which are irreducible. These atomic states of affairs still have all 3 sets of constituents (bare particular, intrinsic properties, relations to other particulars). How does Lowe account for them?


    Me, I say that universals can only be recognised by a mind. They are dependent on the mind’s ability to identify likeness etc. They are part of the intellectual apparatus of rational thought.Wayfarer
    Sure, they can only be "recognized" by minds, because recognition is a mental process. But surely the existence of universals is not contingent on being recognized by humans. Electrons had -1 electric charge before anyone recognized there were electrons and they each have this exact charge.

    Are you are claiming that universals are nothing but abstractions of aspects of the things we perceive, measure, and theorize: existing exclusively in minds but having no ontological significance to the objects thenselves. That would be fine, but it's a different definition.

    every object that is examined is accounted for by simpler and simpler components. The absence of a bottom layer implies the series as a whole isn't accounted for, and it would be impossible for an infinite number of parts to assemble.
    — Relativist

    That problem is not addressed by the assertion that at bottom, everything must be physical, especially in the absence of any notion of the physical that is stipulated by physics.
    Wayfarer
    I was explaining the GENERAL problems with some infinite regresses, in answer to your question: "And what, for that matter, is the supposed threat of 'infinite regress'?" Any metaphysics that entails a problematic infinite regress has this problem. It's a general issue in philosophy of mathematics.

    Regarding the "absence of any notion of the physical that is stipulated by physics", I addressed that above. Again: I don't think any metaphysical theory should have a catolog of existents. They should catalog the types of things that exist in a way that divides all existents into subsets.

    That is really all I have to say on the matter. I am not and will never be persuaded by physicalism.Wayfarer
    My objective has never been to persuade you physicalism is true. My objective has been to demonstrate that it is not unreasonable to accept it. I know you will judge it negatively because it's inconsistent with matters important to you, but I hope you recognize that I have different philosophical concerns.

    I stand by the criticisms I’ve offered and I don’t see them as having been rebutted.Wayfarer
    I think you mean "refuted", as in proving to you that your position is unreasonable- which I never set out to do.

    But I DID refute your flawed understanding of physicalism, and this results in dissolving your case against it to me. You would have to build a case in terms that are consistent with my view of physicalism. I'm not proposing you do this, and I recommend against it. Agree to disagree.

    My one hope is that you have a bit more respect for my position after this exchange. I've never lost my respect for yours. I believe your objections are deeper than the details you've gotten wrong and that it's more related to your general world view.

    I too feel that criticism of the idealist ideas I put forward is based on their not being understood.Wayfarer
    I don't claim to understand it, but what would help would be some short description of a reasonable form of idealism. Not "Joe says this, Mike says that" and leaving it to the interested reader to explore further. I'm only mildly interested, not sufficiently to do that work.

    .
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    Also, so-called “election denial” was verboten. Anti-Trump pressure campaigns even got the president removed from the largest social media platforms, along with vast swaths of his supporters. That’s why I don’t care too much about the victims here, and their cries ring rather hollow. This is what you get.NOS4A2
    So the free speech absolutist makes an exception, when it entails retaliation by his side; a retaliation that's an order of magnitude worse because it entailed explicitly political speech, and threats to misuse the office of the FCC to inflict that punishment*, and threats of expensive lawsuits

    If retaliation (in spades), is acceptable, then you should be fine if there were to be counter retaliation from the left. But obviously, you have no principles.

    ______
    *Amazingly, even Trump sycophant Ted Cruz denounced the threat.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    how can physicalism transcend physics? If physics is not relevant to physicallsm, then why describe such a foundational ontology as “physical” at all? Physical compared to what?Wayfarer
    I googled the definition of Transcend:
    "to rise above or go beyond the limits of"

    Each of the postulates of physicalism goes beyond what physics can properly do:
    -identify the ontological structure of existents as states of affairs
    -the ontology of universals: that they exist at all; that they exist immanently
    -the ontological structure of laws (relations between universals); physics can identify instrumentalist methodology (equations). As I described, theoretical models are heuristics and/or metaphysical claims.
    -that physical reality = the totality of reality.

    And if the irreducible bottom layer of reality cannot, even in principle, be identified by or with the theories of physics, then on what basis is it called "physical"?Wayfarer
    Axiomatic, but justified. The states of affairs (SOA) model is consistent and coherent, and entails a hierarchical structure such that complex SOAs are composed of lower level SOAs. Introducing additional, nonphysical, categories of existent is superfluous and unparsimonious.

    Armstrong’s “atoms” may be a neat philosophical posit but unless they’re tied to some determinate content, why regard them as more than symbolic? And if they’re only symbolic, then the reality they possess is conceptual rather than physical.
    Because an ontological/metaphysical theory entails a theory of what exists. Compare to Thomist metaphysics which assumes every existent has an "essence". This is a postulate based on conceptual analysis- there SEEMS to be something essential to objects that is unique to them. Conceptual analysis is the basis for any ontology.

    Nevertheless, someone who is agnostic to ontological theories, or outright rejects physicalism, could treat this ontology as symbolic- a paradigm to which they don't commit. This is the same sort of thing I had in mind regarding my ability to discuss philosophical issues within a paradigm that's inconsistent with physicalism. I can regard the paradigm as symbolic, but useful to considering the topic.

    And what, for that matter, is the supposed threat of “infinite regress”?Wayfarer
    An infinite regress of causes implies each effect can be accounted for by the immediately prior cause. This has 2 vices: 1) It entails an infinite past, because causation entails a temporal sequence. I have argued in other threads that this is mpossible 2) The infinite series (as a whole) is left unaccounted for.

    Similarly with composition: every object that is examined is accounted for by simpler and simpler components. The absence of a bottom layer implies the series as a whole isn't accounted for, and it would be impossible for an infinite number of parts to assemble.

    How convenient!Wayfarer
    How frustrating. For me.
    My perspective: throughout this discussion I got signs that you didn't understand physicalism. Your questions conclusively prove I was correct- and imply none of your criticisms are relevant to me. Your falsifications fail because they are rooted in that lack of understanding.

    Remember, I am not trying to convince you; you're trying to convince me. Only because you admitted that, I thought it might be worthwhile to take the time to answer your questions to help you understand. A remark like this suggests to me you aren't trying to understand, and are instead casting judgement, rooted in your own perspective.


    The scope of ontology is the totality of existence. Physicalists are philosophers who assert the physical world to BE the totality of existence, but it is not a conclusion derived from physics.
    — Relativist

    But surely the totality of existence includes human beings. You're not seeing the point of Chalmers critique:
    Wayfarer
    This portion of my response did not deal with Chalmer's claims - but I addressed it later in my response. Here, I was explaining the difference between physics and physicalism, and their relationship to each other. You have clearly misunderstood it, and the comment you reacted to was part of my explanation. Appropriate responses would be "ah, I get it now (at least partly)", or a follow-up question to get additional clarification if it still wasn't clear.
    It (the 'hard problem' is problematic for a physicalism that assumes science can and will answer all questons about the natural world
    — Relativist

    But it's important to grasp that this is not the meaning of the 'hard problem'. It's not the want of knowledge about the natural world.
    Wayfarer

    My comment was a response to a specific issue you raised:
    do you recognize any cogency in David Chalmers' argument? That 'the nature of experience' cannot be fully captured by scientific descriptons? If you don't, why not? If you do, how does it fail as argument against physicalism?Wayfarer
    I'll be blunt. You were attacking a strawman: a false view of physicalism that assumes "scientific descriptions" must possible for everthing. I went on to say, "I do not expect science to necessarily be able to answer every question about the physical world." I expanded on this in my subsequent 2 paragraphs.

    I made additional comments that you didn't comment on, and asked you some questions you didn't answer.

    You had complained that I hadn't adequately responded to all your objections, and had dismissively claimed "category error" and "strawman". I took that to heart and tried to give you more complete answers. This took a lot of time. So it's frustrating that you give no indication that you've understood anything I've said, and instead merely give me a subjective negative reaction. This is not an effective way to meet the objective you stated - which entailed making headway in convincing me.

    So it seems like it's time to agree to disagree.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    Only in situations where one has a choice of hypotheses is the degree of certainty needed.
    — Relativist

    In this case, you have what you called good reason to believe that the hypothesis is false. How would this affect the degree of certainty?
    Metaphysician Undercover
    The judgement is between 2 or more competing hypotheses, for the sole purpose of selecting one. And remember I have replaced my term "good reason" with "relevant information". This relevent new information may, or may not, change the ranking. Consider the auditory evidence of a second shooter of Kennedy: this new information doesn't change my relative ranking of the 2 hypotheses. In cases where it is a closer call, new relevant information could change the judgement.

    To reiterate: modest Bayesianism does not entail assigning an absolute probability; rather: just a relative ranking.


    [I think it is irrational to choose a hypotheses when there is strong evidence (good reason) which indicates that it is false.
    Semantics. I previously addressed this:

    If I use your private lexicon, I would not label the point a "good reason" to reject physicalism, but rather that it constitutes relevant information that should be taken into account (as I previously described, and you ignored).Relativist
    ______________________


    However, the issue is really much more complicated than what you describe. What happens often, is that a person will select a hypotheses with incomplete data, as you suggest. The extent of the data which is unknown is itself unknown, so the certainty level may be higher than it ought to be. The relevance of the unknown data cannot be accounted for, because the data is unknown. Therefore the data which is judged is arbitrarily weighted relative to the unknown data.Metaphysician Undercover
    You seem to be mistakenly treating certainly level as a probability that can be calculated, and indicating the actual probability is unknown - because our knowledge is limited.

    That's not what we're doing. We're just producing a relative ranking of the hypotheses based on whatever information is available.

    Then, as time passes more data will become available to the individual(s) who made that judgement. The data may actually be directly contrary to the accepted hypotheses, but since the hypotheses is already accepted, and plays an active role in the lives of those who accept it, they simply adjust, make an exception to the rule to allow for the now evident contrary data, and continue to work with the hypotheses, which we now have data that confirms it is faulty.Metaphysician Undercover
    Good description of what often occurs, but do you agree that it can be more rational to reevaluate the hypotheses (there need to be at least 2) than to "adjust and make an exception"? That's my point.

    This is actually very common in physics.Metaphysician Undercover
    There tends to be no viable alternative hypothesis to the then-current accepted theory. But it's more complicated than that. Refer to Kuhn's, "Structure of Scientific Revolutions"

    Physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis. It's a gross caricature to suggest this means physics can replace epistemology.
    — Relativist

    Yes, physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis. However, epistemology is what ontology grounds. Therefore it is you who speaks nonsense here.
    Metaphysician Undercover
    How does the fact that there is an ontological ground to epistemolgy (invariably discussed as a supervenience relation) support your claim that physics can replace epistemology? Consider the relation between meteorology and the more fundamental science of thermodynamics and fluid dynamics - which obviously ground it - just one level down.. No one would suggest replacing meteorology with direct application of thermodynamics and fluid dynamics.
    You interpreted "good reasons" to entail facts that contradicted my prior judgement. I explained this was not what I meant by the phrase. I have identified no facts that contradict physicalism. If I use your private lexicon, I would not label the point a "good reason" to reject physicalism, but rather that it constitutes relevant information that should be taken into account (as I previously described, and you ignored).
    — Relativist

    Your use of "facts" here is misplaced. You have talked yourself out of the usefulness of "facts", by insisting that beliefs are judged by degree of certainty. So if there is such a thing as a fact, it is irreleavnt because you do not consider any beliefs to be facts.
    Metaphysician Undercover
    The context is that we're selecting a "best explanation" for a set of data that we are assumed to be facts, from a set 2 or more possible explanations that have been proposed. You still seem be treating this as traditional Bayesianism.

    Yes, I believe the cosmological argument provides irrefutable proof of God. In case your not familiar with it, here is a simplified version.

    We observe that it is always the case that the potential for the physical object is prior in time to the actual existence of any physical object...
    Metaphysician Undercover

    The observations you refer to are entirely within a temporal context, such that for any observed object, X, we observed a time (Tp) prior to its existence. So we can conclude that the state of affairs at Tp necessarily had the potential to produce X.

    Your inductive inference applies to all cases in which an object comes into existence from a state of affairs in which it did not exist. It does not apply to an initial state of affairs (Si); because there was no prior time at which Si did not exist. There's no objective reason to believe an initial, uncaused, physical state of affairs could not have existed.

    I have just conclusively shown that your argument is non-sequitur.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    Philosophical differences are always deeply rooted, and unless the difference is very mundane (making it not a real philosophical issue) the differences cannot be resolved without addressing ontological principles.Metaphysician Undercover

    Lots of philosophical issues can be discussed without first establishing a common ontology. This includes discussions of epistemology and science.

    As you yourself admit, ontology provides grounding.
    Yes, but it's not always necessary to demonstrate how the issues map to the ontological ground. We usually just claim a supervenience relation.

    When it IS necessary, each side can either choose to make a case for their ontology, or they can simply agree to disagree based on their respective background beliefs.
  • Donald Trump (All Trump Conversations Here)
    Remember when the GOP was up in arms about Dems supposed assault of free speech - simply because they were asking social media companies to combat misinformation related to healthcare? Now they're silent when the administration threatens to revoke FCC licenses purely for political speech.

    "Disney's ABC announced it is taking Jimmy Kimmel's late night talk show off the air indefinitely following comments he made about Charlie Kirk's suspected killer. During his Monday monologue, Kimmel said: "The MAGA Gang (is) desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it." Following his remarks, the Trump-appointed chair of the FCC publicly pressured ABC to punish Kimmel — and suggested the commission could move to revoke ABC's affiliate licenses. Several celebrities and free speech groups condemned ABC, while President Donald Trump, a frequent critic of Kimmel, praised the decision."
    --
    https://www.cnn.com/2025/09/18/business/timeline-jimmy-kimmel-suspension-vis
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    I don’t intend to misrepresent you, but when you define physicalism as the thesis that everything that exists is composed of physical things, governed by physical forces and laws of nature, supported by an argument from 'the scope of physics', then from my point of view it does sound like physics is being taken as the ontological grounding for your metaphysics. How is it not?Wayfarer
    Because physics is not ontology/metaphysics.

    Physics tells many things about the natural world - all of which are best guesses - very GOOD guesses, thanks to the methodology that is truth-directed (verification, falsification, revision, supplanting). Ontology entails postulating general features of existence. The postulates of physicalism transcend physics, and are not contingent on any particular theories in physics. Falsifying a theory in physics has no bearing on the axioms of physicalism.

    Example: Armstrong's "atomism" is an ontological claim that there is an irreducible bottom layer of physical reality. It is not based on atomic theory, quantum field theory, or string theory - but based on judgement against a vicious, infinite regress. i.e. it is based on the tools of philosophy, not science. If quantum fields are actually the ontological rock-bottom, that would be consistent with the ontological claim, but the ontological claim is not contingent upon it. (Furthermore, science could never demonstrate that an ontological bottom has been found).

    Physicalism respects the discoveries of physics, and as such is a form of scientific realism, but it doesn't entail treating any specific findings in physics as an element of the ontology or as a set of assumed facts upon which it depends.

    Physicalists do adopt the implication of physics that there are on laws - but based on it being a best explanation for the success of physics*, and respect for the epistemoligical basis of science.

    I hope this helps you understand why it's incorrect to say that physics (that set of defeasible theories) cannot be considered the ontological ground that physicalism depends on. If physics were completed and perfected, then it would do so, but that's just an idealization; it's unrealistic to think that will ever happen*.

    Confusion arises in discussions when the term "physics" is used to refer to this idealization. In my discussions, I try to be consistent with referring to "laws of nature" as the actual, ontological laws. When I discuss "laws of physics", I'm referring to current theory. Gaps in current theory (e.g. dark matter & energy; quantum gravity) are irrelevant to the ontology- they just demonstrate the incompleteness of physics. Similarly with theory revision: Newton got a lot right with gravity.

    You also suggested that I claimed physicalism is "supported by an argument from 'the scope of physics'. I haven't said that. The scope of physics is the natural world. The scope of ontology is the totality of existence. Physicalists are philosophers who assert the physical world to BE the totality of existence, but it is not a conclusion derived from physics. Rather, it is a conclusion based on an absence of adequate evidence of anything else, and parsimony. Indeed, physicalists respect what physicists have learned about nature: physics provides a set of "facts" about the world that have stronger epistemic support than many other claims about what exists. But also, as I said earlier the postulates of physicalism are actually beyond the scope of science - so despite physicalism's effective scope being physical reality, it's scope of discourse transcends physics.

    _____________


    *Some physicalists, including Armstrong, suggest physics will eventually be completed. I am more pessimistic, because there are limits to what we can investigate empirically. My understanding is that string theory is close to being a complete physics- accounting for the quantum fields and gravity. But critics are correct in noting that it's not possible to test it empirically. Similarly with confirming some interpretation of QM.

    Would I be correct in saying that you believe that 'ontology' comprises 'the set of all actually existing things',Wayfarer
    Ontology INCLUDES the set of all actually existing things, but it also includes theory about the structure of reality. Examples: 1) Armstrong's postulate that everything that exists is a "state off affairs", with 3 kinds of constituents 2) the postulate that laws of nature are relations between universals, account for causation and reflect a necessitation.

    do you recognize any cogency in David Chalmers' argument? That 'the nature of experience' cannot be fully captured by scientific descriptons? If you don't, why not? If you do, how does it fail as argument against physicalism?Wayfarer
    It reflects a problem for science rather than a problem for physicalism. It's problematic for a physicalism that assumes science can and will answer all questons about the natural world but I noted my disagreement with that. I do not expect science to necessarily be able to answer every question about the physical world.

    In principle, I'm open to a theory of mind that includes something inconsistent with physicalism. But I've seen nothing but possibilities being proposed that have no epistemological basis to support them. These unnatural possibilities aren't even put in the form of an explanatory hypothesis to entertain against natural ones. They simply entail something vauge existing that is undetectable/unanalyzable by science.

    If undetectable/unanalyzable answers are reasionable to consider, this should include undetectable/unanalyzable physical possibilities- something that fits the physicalist paradigm: everything that exists is a state of affairs, causation is due to relations between universals, and causal closure. It would be different if I were singularly focused on philosophy of mind, but I'm interested in the broader metaphysical landscape.

    scientific method assumes at the outset a division between subject and object, and assigns primary reality to the objectively-measurable attributes of objects, while assigning appearances to the so-called 'secondary attributes' of the subjective mind. I'm saying that physicalism overlooks or ignores this methodological division, and this has philosophical consequences.Wayfarer
    I think you mean "philosophical implications". The implication I see is paradigm failure. That alone doesn't falsify physicalism. I'm not rationalizing and demanding physicalism be proven logically impossible, because my position is based on Inference to Best Explanation. I would need to see a better explanation than physicalism.

    Yet they're saying that physics does not describe nature as it is. Do you think that is so? If not, why?Wayfarer
    I agree that the physics only establishes the efficacacy of the calculations, but it does tell us something about the ontological nature of the system it describes, and nothing about it is inconsistent with physicalism. It's a strike against standard scientific realism (which assumes the model descriptions as accurate), but is exactly the point of ontic structural realism.


    I can consider most philosophical issues even when framed in terms inconsistent with physicalism. That's because I regard the framing as paradigm, which can be utilized without ontological commitent to the paradigm.
    — Relativist

    This seems to rest on a misunderstanding of philosophy as such. Scientific models can indeed be treated as paradigms without ontological commitment — Newtonian mechanics still works fine for spacecraft navigation, even if we know relativity is more fundamental. Same with quantum physicists' 'Shut up and calculate'. But philosophy isn’t just a pragmatic use of conceptual models. Its concern is precisely with what is real, and what it means to exist. To treat philosophical frameworks as if they can be referenced without ontological commitment is to miss the point of philosophy. Ontology can't be firewalled of to a specialised sub-division separate from the rest of philosophy, it's intrinsic to it.
    Wayfarer
    So...you disagree, and you explained why you disagree, but you've given me no reason to change my mind- you have demonstrated no failure of treating it as paradigm. Neither did you respond to this:

    But if there are issues (or solutions to issues) that DO require some (non-physicalist) ontological commitments, why wouldn't you have the burden of making a case for those commitments? If you believe it impossible to meet the burden, then how can you than construe this as an error my part? Sure, you disagree with me on physicalism, but if you haven't truly falsified it to me, then you have no rational basis to complain about my view on the subject. To do so seems similar to a Christian lamenting my failure to experience the joy of Jesus' love for me, because I'm an ignorant atheist.Relativist


    I've given the above arguments repeatedly over the course of this thread, and to my recollection, you haven't engaged with any of them, other than the vague accusation of them being 'category mistakes'. If they are, then how so?Wayfarer
    The category mistakes involved conflating physics with physicalist ontology, and I did say that. More broadly, I said you didn't understand physicalism. I hope this lengthy reply helps to better understand physicalism and its relation to physics.

    BTW, I'm sure I brought up Ontic Structural Realism before. I recall you having a more favorable attitude toward it vs standard scientific realism.
  • Thoughts on Epistemology
    The general idea here—which will apply to a large number of the epistemological theories on offer—is that if we abandon the possibility or notion of certain knowledge, then the replacement form of uncertain knowledge will cease to make sense.Leontiskos
    First of all, I have never claimed knowledge is impossible. I said it is rare. Is this sufficient for uncertain "knowledge"* to make sense, on your terms?

    *(if it's uncertain, it's not knowledge - by most definitions)

    Secondly, I suggest that TRUTH is a well defined concept, and the ideal that we strive for is: TRUE BELIEFS. Just this one aspect of "knowledge" is needed to make sense of what we're doing.

    Turning to the other qualifying factors for knowledge...

    Justification is relevant, but only because it relates to the means by which we pursue truth. Some justifications are better than others; the best are the ones that achieve certainty (=confidence we have found truth).

    The existence of Gettier problems would seem to suggest that 100% certainty should almost never be claimed (there's nearly always some remote possibility that a strongly justified belief is false). However- IMO, remote possibilities doesn't and shouldn't shake our complete confidence in a strongly justified belief.

    This segues into my view of epistemic "probabilities". I don't think the term should be used, because our attitudes toward statements aren't developed in any remotely mathematical way. As I said in my prior post, we can often rank one justification stronger than another, but that doesn't warrant assigning fine-grained numbers. Now back to Gettiers...

    If fine-grained "probabilities" can't be assigned to beliefs, remote possibilities should not be a factor in judging confidence because they would reflect only fine-grained difference. This removes Gettier problems from real-world epistemic considerations.

    So...if the Gettier issue is included in the definition of knowledge, then it renders true knowledge a rarely obtainable objective. But this should have no bearing on the rational pursuit of truth.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    In your prior response, you said:

    My purpose isn’t simply to reject physicalism for the sake of argument, but to show why I think it leaves something crucial out of the picture.Wayfarer
    Who are you showing this to? Yourself? Me? If it's me, then it's only worth my time if you are trying to convince me, rather than just "witnessing" it to me (like the Jehovah's witness tells me, when I answer the door). Otherwise we're just stating our positions and reacting to what the other person says- a waste of our time.

    I'll respond to your last post based on the assumption that you're endeavoring to convince me. But please clarify, so I can understand if its worth continuing.

    Physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis, not an effective paradigm for answering all questions about the human condition - your areas of interest and concern.
    — Relativist
    But surely philosophy is concerned with the whole range of questions about the human condition. The task of science is to explore and explain what exists; philosophy asks what it means to exist.
    Wayfarer
    This has no bearing on the what I said, except to the extent that Philosophy deals with more than ontology (the ONLY thing physicalism is dealing with).

    Yet you’ve said repeatedly that physics provides the paradigm for metaphysics — that the “ontological grounding” is the ontology of physics.Wayfarer
    I never said either of those things. You're AGAIN demonstrating your lack of understanding!


    Most of mental life is better considered from completely different perspectives. My issue is specifically with ontology: what actually exists. I think ontology can be set aside for the issues you raised. If this is wrong, and there is such a dependency then there's a burden to make an epistemological case for that ontology.
    — Relativist

    That “burden,” as you phrase it, could only be met by demonstrating the objective existence of some “non-physical thing.”
    Wayfarer
    You're skipping over my key point, in that quote:
    that philosophical issues can generally be dealt with while ignoring ontology. Ontology could be more of a distraction. You don't agree, but you haven't explained why you disagree. Set aside what I claimed your burden to be, and just show why it's "crucial" that I reject physicalism to discuss the philosophical issues that concern you.

    My claim is that I can consider most philosophical issues even when framed in terms inconsistent with physicalism. That's because I regard the framing as paradigm, which can be utilized without ontological commitent to the paradigm.

    But if there are issues (or solutions to issues) that DO require some (non-physicalist) ontological commitments, why wouldn't you have the burden of making a case for those commitments? If you believe it impossible to meet the burden, then how can you than construe this as an error my part? Sure, you disagree with me on physicalism, but if you haven't truly falsified it to me, then you have no rational basis to complain about my view on the subject. To do so seems similar to a Christian lamenting my failure to experience the joy of Jesus' love for me, because I'm an ignorant atheist.
  • Thoughts on Epistemology
    ↪Relativist
    has forwarded a theory where all (or almost all - this is contentious) beliefs are inferences to the best explanation, and are thus probabilistic.
    Leontiskos

    That's correct, but I don't claim that most such inferences are rigorous. It's often just what seems most likely to the person making the judgement at the time he makes it.
    Example of non-rigorous IBE: a Presidential candidate* loses the election; based on his belief that he was overwhelmingly more popular than his rival, and he judges that this is best explained as the election being stolen from him by illegal means. (* Any resemblance to any person, living or dead, is purely coincidental.)

    More rigor enters into the analysis when one open-mindedly considers additional evidence that was previously unavailable or overlooked, often in the face of being challenged on the initial judgement.

    __________________________
    Regarding "probablistic" - do not mistake this with orthodox Bayesian epistemology, which depends on the absurd assumption that we can attach a consistent set of epistemic probabilities to every statement we claim to believe. Rather, I embrace Mark Kaplan's* "modest Bayesianism", which makes the modest claim that we can attach a relative confidence level to SOME pairs (or small sets) of statements of belief. If there's a reasonable basis for the ranking.

    * source of this theory: Mark Kaplan's article "Decision Theory and Epistemology", in the Oxford Handbook of Epistemology.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    My purpose isn’t simply to reject physicalism for the sake of argument, but to show why I think it leaves something crucial out of the picture.Wayfarer
    My impression is that the things you have said are "left out" by physicalism are category error. Physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis, not an effective paradigm for answering all questions about the human condition - your areas of interest and concern.

    In theory, you could falsify physicalism by identifying some aspect of the human condition that is logically impossible to account for under physicalism. But in practice, the problem is in your framing of the issues. You frame it in the way you think about it, which is rooted in your subjective world view.

    This approach gives you a valid reason to reject physicalism (i.e. it's inconsistent with your world-view), but does not constitute the objective take-down of physicalism that you think it is. Example: your rejection of immanent universals (like "4") and insistence that you established the existence of something nonphysical. From a physicalist perspective, this is trivially false. Issues like this prove you don't understand the physicalist paradigm, and the fact you've done this repeatedly, even after I've explained physicalist perspectives, suggests to me that you aren't making the effort to understand it.

    Similarly with the way you see the relationship between science and the metaphysical theory of physicalism. You reject my description of the relationship, and you misconstrue it or insist on your own view. By rejecting my description, you have eliminated any possibility of objectively falsifying it, you've only falsified a strawman version that you have in mind. It also demonstrates that you aren't trying to understand.

    I don't think you are interested in understanding. If you were, you'd ask more and assert less. That's observation/inference, not criticism. Physicalism isn't for you. It's inconsistent with your world view and it doesn't address your areas of concern and interest (what you consider "crucial"). I suggest you leave it at that, and accept that it fits fine with the world view of others.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    I do not believe that you attach a level of certainty to each judgement you makeMetaphysician Undercover
    Correct- I don't have a level of certainty for every judgement. Modest Bayesian epistemology doesn't assume that I do:

    "Let me begin the sketch with Modest Bayesianism’s psychology. It is, true to the name, modest. In contrast to its orthodox ancestor, which strains our credulity by assuming that actual persons have real-valued degree of confidence assignments, Modest Bayesianism assumes only that any person harbors at least some confidence-rankings: that she can, for at least some pairs of hypotheses, say in which (if either) she invests the greater confidence, in which (if either) she invests equal confidence."
    --Mark Kaplan (p 650, Oxford Handbook).

    Only in situations where one has a choice of hypotheses is the degree of certainty needed. At that point, one can reflect on the relative degrees of confidence one has between the hypotheses.

    The reason i say this, is that judgements are made for the purpose of acting, and you are going to act on the judgement, with a healthy respect for fallibility, whether you are 75% certain or 85% certain. In the vast majority of judgements, to figure out the degree of certitude would be a totally useless waste of time, therefore it is not practised.Metaphysician Undercover
    Your criticism would be appropriate for orthodox Bayesianism, but doesn't apply to Modest Bayesianism. Indeed, it's a minority of the time that one would have any reason to consider level of certainty. The Kennedy Assassination question is one such example. But it could occur anytime one hears of evidence contrary to one's prior judgements- the rational thing to do is to reevaluate the judgement.

    This highlights an error that conspiracy theorists make: they are overconfident in their initial judgement, and rationalize contrary evidence. The initial confidence should be tempered by the quality of the evidence, and new contrary evidence should prompt one to reevaluate.

    Similarly with IBEs: new, information contrary to the prior judgement should often lead to reevaluation.

    I do not believe that the subjective nature of judgement is consistent with physicalism which holds that everything is potentially understandable through the objective science of physicsMetaphysician Undercover
    Utter nonsense. Physicalism is an ontological grounding thesis. It's a gross caricature to suggest this means physics can replace epistemology.


    The point though, is that you have gone beyond making a judgement with incomplete data, along with a healthy respect for fallibility, to making a judgement when you explicitly state that there are good reasons for the very opposite of what you have concluded in that judgement. This is not a matter of "incomplete data", it is a matter of ignoring evidence which is contrary to your conclusion.Metaphysician Undercover
    You are quibbling with semantics. You interpreted "good reasons" to entail facts that contradicted my prior judgement. I explained this was not what I meant by the phrase. I have identified no facts that contradict physicalism. If I use your private lexicon, I would not label the point a "good reason" to reject physicalism, but rather that it constitutes relevant information that should be taken into account (as I previously described, and you ignored).

    I believe that the reality of God has already long ago been proven, by the cosmological argument.Metaphysician Undercover
    "Proven?" Do you mean that you judge some cosmological argument to offer irrefutable proof of God, or do you draw a less certain conclusion?

    You earlier made this assertion:

    Physicalist causation leads to infinite regressMetaphysician Undercover
    That's a claim often made by devotees of some cosmological arguments. Does the fact I proved you wrong about this lead you to reevaluate your conclusion, or is this irrelevant to the particular cosmological argument you embrace?
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?

    Before I respond again, please answer the question I asked:

    What is your objective?

    --Are you just explaining why you reject physicalism?

    -Are you trying to convince me physicalism is false?


    There are other possibilities, course. Keeping it open-ended will never get anywhere.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    OK, that makes it clear then, You are admitting that you do not believe that physicalism is the best ontology, you believe that it might be the best ontology depending on how reality is understood.Metaphysician Undercover
    We disagree about how the word "belief" should be used.

    The problem with saying "physicalism might be the best ontology" is that it fails to communicate that I have made a judgement. Judgements are fallible, and only as good as the basis on which they are made.

    You seem to say "I believe X" only if you're certain of X. This suggests either: there are few propostions you "believe" (in your terms) or you have an unjustified certainty in your positions.

    I apply the word "belief" to all propositions I have judged to be true, irrespective of how strong my justification is. But, as I said, my attitude toward the proposition is more nuanced: there is a level of certainty attached to it.

    And your claim that it is probably the best ontology is very subjective, base on cherry-picked principles.Metaphysician Undercover
    Judgements are always subjective. They are unavoidably based on background beliefs (judgements previously made). But I am always willing to explain why I believe it - thus opening myself to correction. This includes having those principles and background beliefs challenged, so that I can reevaluate. I did this here in this thread. I invite you to challenge the principles I apply (namely: IBE, and the selection criteria).

    Do you recognize that the fact that your judgement in this matter is very subjective, is very strong evidence that physicalism is not the best ontology? This is because physicalism does not account for the subjective aspect of judgement, and you are assigning principal position to it?Metaphysician Undercover
    Judgement is unavoidably a subjective process, because it can only be made on the facts at one's disposal (background beliefs, methodology, and cognitive abilities). These aspects (entirely nature + nurture) account for the subjective nature of judgement, consistent with physicalism.


    If you really believed in physicalism you would be certain, due to the objectivity of what you believe in, rather than wishy washy as you demonstrate. For analogy, if you claim that you are atheist, then be atheist, rather than agnostic.Metaphysician Undercover
    I don't regard it as "wishy washy" to honestly explain the basis of my judgement, and admit fallibility, and be open to reasonable criticism. That's all I'm doing.

    I have argued that most of our beliefs (my definition) are based on judgements made on incomplete data. The best we can do, in most cases, is inference to best explanation.

    I went for many years self-labelling as an agnostic. It seemed appropriate because I deemed a god's existence to be possible. Over time, I've come to conclude that a creator-god is implausible, so I now label myself as atheist. It's nevertheless logically possible such a being exists. I'd consider it wishy-washy to fail to make a judgement of something that seems so implausible, merely because I'm possibly wrong. (It's of course possible Yahweh will some day reveal himself to me; if convinced my experience were veridical, I would change my mind. Obviously, I judge this won't happen).

    With your semantics, I don't see how you could be anything other than agnostic - unless you base your certainty of God on "faith". Neither God's existence nor non-existence can be proven, so both are possible.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    When I say "I believe X" it means that I think X is the case, I think it is true. When I think X may be the case I say "I believe that X may be the case", or "X is possible". Do you recognize the difference between these two?

    Neither says anything about certainty or uncertainty,
    Metaphysician Undercover

    You simply haven't been paying attention. I explicitly stated:

    Here again, you're treating all beliefs as categorical: that I can only choose to believe a proposition true or false, and these entail absolute commitments. My view is that each belief has a level of certainty.Relativist

    "Degrees of certainty" are key to the "modest Bayesian epistemology*" that I advocate. It is an epistemological approach discussed by philosopher Mark Kaplan in an article in The Oxford Handbook of Epistemology ("Decision Theory and Epistemology".

    When i want to describe my certainty or uncertainty, I use those words. Do you recognize the difference between "I believe X", and "I believe X is possible", regardless of the degree of certitude?Metaphysician Undercover
    For many propositions you've evaluated, you will have some sense of whether it's certain, highly likely, unlikely, etc. The level of certainty is relevant to how one evaluates other, related information to draw conclusions. Consider a valid deductive argument from premises you considered possible, but unlikely, vs a conclusion drawn from premises that you consider highly likely.

    This is the point I have been driving at: the issue of degrees of certainty as attitudes toward propositions, and the effect this has on further epistemic analysis. The distraction was your quibbling about the use of the word "belief" - because your only focus was to tell me I'm wrong, rather than making an effort to understand my point.
    _________
    *"Modest Bayesian epistemology doesn't suffer from the mathematical fallacy that orthodox Bayesian epistemology suffers from.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    Remind me! Everything you've said in this exchange is predicated on equating the model of physics with a philosophy of everything.Wayfarer
    I have never said such a thing - you just assumed it. Multiple times I've said that I judge physicalism to be the metaphysical theory that is "inference to best explanation". An IBE is based on a set of facts, and in this case - the scope is universal: all facts about the world. Speculations are not facts.

    Science gives us quite a few facts, so of course a viable metaphysical theory needs to account for them.

    But how can you 'set aside' the posit that current physics accounts for 4% of the totality of the universe? And the entrenched controversies around the whole question of the interpretation of physics and what is says about the nature of reality? You really need to read some more in this subject.Wayfarer

    You need to start trying to grasp my reasons for considering physicalism, as I described above, instead of attacking a strawman. There are no facts about dark matter and energy to be accounted for. With regard to QM: there is no fact regarding which interpretation is correct. An interpretation is a metaphysical hypothesis, and physicalism is consistent with most of them.

    What I consider 'obvious' is that the observer or subject is implicitly present in physicalism, but has been suppressed for methodological reasons.Wayfarer
    Red herring: it's irrelevant to the question.

    So you embrace a the platonic principle that (at least some) abstractions have objective existence — Relativist


    ‘Transcendental’ is not the same as ‘objective’. Universals are transcendental because they transcend the specific forms in which they are instantiated....’
    Wayfarer
    Nevertheless, you reject the account I've given that universals exist immanently.

    This raises an important question: what are you trying to achieve in this discussion?

    --Are you just explaining why you reject physicalism? All I'm seeing is that you're rejecting a strawman.


    --If you're trying to convince me physicalism is false, then you're going about it wrong. You can't prove it false by making a claim that's inconsistent with physicalism. You've done this repeatedly.

    I GAVE you an opening, by admitting there's an issue with the "hard problem", so that I was willing to entertain the "negative fact" (actually a negative hypothesis) that there's something about the mind that is non-physical. All you did with this was to suggest some vague possibilities. This led me to reconsider what I'd said about the "hard problem" because there are at least 3 possibilities that are consistent with physicalism (illusionism, Michael Tye's theory, and nonreductive physicalism).

    He is saying the exact opposite of what you describe him as saying. He is saying that Churchlands and Dennett are 'clueless' for suggesting that 'there is no good reason to think that the mind will fail to yield to the same sort of reductive explanation in terms of which everything else in nature has been accounted for.Wayfarer
    You don't seem to understand what I was debating with MetaphysicianUndercover: I was simply defending my semantics, that one can believe X despite there being "good reasons" why X might be false. Here's the sentence:

    "[these contemporary naturalists] cluelessly suggest that there is no good reason to think that the mind will fail to yield to the same sort of reductive explanation in terms of which everything else in nature has been accounted for."

    From this, I infer that Feser thought these guys should admit there ARE good reasons " to think that the mind will fail to yield to the same sort of reductive explanation in terms of which everything else in nature has been accounted for". In the statement, he isn't saying that these reasons should have induced them to abandon reductive naturalism (even if he believes that to be the case); he's just saying they ought to at least acknowledge there are some good reasons to think there's no reductive naturalism.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?

    You persist in treating all beliefs as categorical, despite my repeated efforts to describe it to you.

    Answer this: when you say "I believe X", does this mean you are certain of X?

    If not, then how do you verbally describe your uncertainty, to distinguish it from statements that you do feel certain about?

    If yes, then what phrase(s) do you use to convey your attitude toward X, when you lack certainty.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    To make the JFK example comparable, you'd have to chose one as the best explanation, as the one you believe, then also claim that there is good reason to believe the other. For example, the best explanation, and the one I believe in, is a single person acting alone, however there is good reason to believe in more than one personMetaphysician Undercover
    I saw no reason to state the obvious. You figured out exactly what I had in mind (your stated example), as I expected you would.

    Once you chose one, as the one that you believe in, you cannot claim that there is good reason to believe the other, without contradicting your own belief.Metaphysician Undercover
    Acknowledging there are reasons why I might be wrong is being intellectually honest; that is not a contradiction.

    On this particular example, I indeed believe a single person acted alone. But I read awhile back that there was auditory evidence of a second shooter. This evidence is "good reason" to suggest I could be wrong, however it is not a good ENOUGH reason for me to change my mind. Suppose I encountered 5 additional bits of evidence to support a second shooter. THEN I would change my mind. Individually, each bit of evidence is "good" in that it is relevant information and could contribute to drawing a different inference. It is the totality of available evidence that the conclusion should be based on and that totality can change over time as additional facts are learned.

    suggest you adjust your claim to "it is possible that physicalism is the best ontology".Metaphysician Undercover
    That might be appropriate for an extreme skeptic, who chooses only to believe things that can be proven to be logically necessary. IBE does not entail logical necessity. I believe Oswald acted alone, but I know I'm possibly wrong. If I merely said it was possible he acted alone, I would not be representing my view as accurrately.

    Further, my view on physicalism is strictly subjective judgement. I try to be rational, taking into account all information I'm aware of, but I know I'm fallible, and limited by what I have studied and considered. So I usually don't make bold statements like "physicalism is true". Rather, I say "I believe physicalism is true", and am usually willing to explain why, and interested in hearing valid criticism - "good reasons" why I might be wrong.

    *edit*
    I ran across the following statement by (Christian, dualist) pholosopher Ed Feser:

    "But other contemporary naturalists – Dennett and the Churchlands, for example, not to mention countless lesser lights of the sort who write crude atheist pamphlets and pop neuroscience books – cluelessly suggest that there is no good reason to think that the mind will fail to yield to the same sort of reductive explanation in terms of which everything else in nature has been accounted for."

    So he is acknowledging that there can be "good reasons" for a position one disagrees with, since he's complaining that these naturalists won't even acknowledge that.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    It’s ontological but not physical - an intellectual act which enables the recognition of abstractions. The property can only be recognised by a mind capable of counting.Wayfarer
    In Armstrong's ontology:
    -Everything that exists (every object) is a state of affairs, whose constituents are: the bare particular, a set of properties, and a set of relations to other states of affairs.
    -Properties and relations are constituents of the states of affairs that comprise physical reality- hence they are part of the physical world. They are not objects, because they are not states of affairs. They exist immanently as constituents of states of affairs.

    I already explained the "way of abstraction".

    Nowadays atoms are conceptualised as excitations of fields, and the ontological status of fields is far from settledWayfarer
    I was giving a simplified account to avoid having to describe quantum fields. I'll rephrase it:

    physics theory makes the theoretical claim that everything that exists in the material world (the domain of physics) is composed of elements of the quantum fields (as identified in the standard model) . It's a claim supported by evidence and theory. .

    Do you agree there is no good reason to doubt that the standard model identifies the physical composition of everything that exists (setting aside the mystery of dark matter and dark energy)?

    Do you understand how this scientific hypothesis is distinct from the metaphysical claim is that an object IS its physical compostion?

    Do you deny that this metaphysical claim is true for all nonliving objects? If you do deny it, can you make a compelling case for your view?

    I made it perfectloy explicit:

    There is something very obvious that it excludes, as I've already said time and again. And you don't notice or acknowledge what it is
    Wayfarer

    You've brought up a number of mental activities you considered "obvious" that are easily accounted for in physicalism, so your judgement of what is "obvious" is suspect.

    What you purport to exclude is what comprises the "negative fact", from which you have not, and can not, derive a positive fact. I've repeatedly pointed out that a negative fact (what something is NOT) tells us almost nothing. An object that is "not a duck" could be anything, and therefore "not a duck" is not a clue as to what the object IS.

    It's relevant because you're claiming the negative fact falsifies physicalism. You haven't really flasified it because this "negative fact" is hypothesis and tentative- based solely on the absence of a complete physicalist account of every aspect of mental life. So physicalism is still (at least) possible. You have said nothing stronger about any alternatives, so we simply have a large space of possibilities that includes physicalist and non-physicalist theories.

    Truth is not a property that objects have; rather it is a label we apply to some statements. Logic applies to statements. Meaning is a mental association, not a physical property. Intentions are behavioral.
    — Relativist

    Well your screen name is ‘Relativist’, and you're preaching relativism.
    Wayfarer
    No, I'm not. There's nothing relative about truth; my point was simply that it's a mental concept, not some platonic object.

    As for 'special pleading', it's physicalism that does this. It appeals to physics as the basis of its ontology, but when presented with the inconvenient fact that today's physics seems to undermine physicalism, it will say it is 'not bound by physics'.Wayfarer
    You have an understanding of physicalism that is biased and false. I've explained the actual relationship between science and physicalism, and you choose to ignore what I said and repeat your false understanding.

    The irony is that I've tried very hard to see where your negative hypotheses would lead, going so far as to entertain it as a fact. Unlike you, I have been willing to be wrong; willing to entertain other possibilities. In response, you've displayed complete ignorance as to what physicalism actually is by presenting naive objections (that simply display your lack of understanding of physicalism), and insisting on your distorted view of its relation to science. That is an ineffective way to make your case, and it was a blind alley that had virtually nothing to do with the "negative hypothesis" I had been willing to entertain as fact.

    It's impossible to falsify something you don't understand. It would have been more effective to concede that physicalism is reasonable in every way EXCEPT the mind, and concentrated on somehow doing something with your negative hypothesis. Instead, you've turned much of this conversation into my refuting your misunderstandings about general physicalism.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    Yours does entail contradiction, that's the point, just like my example. Please explain how you think the two differMetaphysician Undercover
    There are good reasons to believe JFK was killed by a single person, acting alone.

    There are good reasons to believe more than one person was involved in the killing of JFK

    These assertions are not contradictory. They can both be true.
  • References for discussion of mental-to-mental causation?
    It accounts for everything known to exist in the universe, except possibly dark matter and dark energy.
    — Relativist

    And numbers.
    Wayfarer
    So you embrace a the platonic principle that (at least some) abstractions have objective existence that is independent of the objects that exhibit them. On the other hand, and as you know, I see no reason to believe such things. Immanent universals are considerably more parsimonious.

    Explain the ontological relationship between a cluster of two protons (in the nucleus ofva helium atom) and the number 2.