Keep on rocking lady. I am beginning to wonder if hell might be better. Last week it was almost a hundred, temperature and humidity. You could not breath without sweating. — Sir2u

Absolutely hotter. In the middle of all this crap, a fast moving fire came through our ranch and 1000 acres around our ranch. No lives lost, no animals (cattle, horses, Alpaca, Camel, dogs and the rest) but the wildlife is decimated. 360.degrees of ash.....as far as the eye can see including the mountain sides we are in the Foothills we are in, which means the Monsoons that are building, are going to wash all that destruction down hill to us with nothing holding the dirt on the mountain.
:confused:

The anti-hydoxychloroquine group reminds me of anti-vaxers. — Hanover

Just out of curiosity: once "they" come up with a Vaccine with maybe a 25% protection, but not really sure of the long term side affects other than defying death, are you going to be at the front of the line?

And, AND those who do not get in line for a year? Are they going to be labeled "anti vaxer"?
The very idea of flagging people who chose not to be at the front of the line is absurd but absurdity is overriding common sense as of late.

My Indian said tagging people who have had the virus and is 'immune' is really close to dividing our society even further. I asked what makes him think that way and I got an eye roll from him when I had to be reminded of the Jewish tattooing of numbers.

I'm actually grateful that this next generation of leaders have not forgotten the past. :sparkle:

We have gotten to the tempatures just shy of Hells' average and I am Thankful for Air conditioning :fire:

Told you that you could do it. :100: :party: — Sir2u

You did! You have always been confident in me and I am so grateful for you being in my corner through the years :flower:

Guess what. After thinking about it now, 10 years later, I dont really care what you think. I know what happened — ernestm

We are given a choice at the time we realize we are being abused that we have the power, in that moment, to become an enabler of further abuse, feeding the cycle or we can choose to become a survivor.
What I quoted above clearly shows you are a survivor. Keep pushing, you are getting to a more peaceful place. :flower:

I could learn it but first I have to learn how not to hold my breath. :fear:

Passed Algebra class and am done with the math for my degree. I'm going to go in for a one on one therapy sessions to learn some new coping skills that I need STAT.
Deep breaths....
Don't ever take life for granted. :flower:

It's a deadly virus, highly contagious, with no cure or vaccine. Nothing works except isolation. — Metaphysician Undercover

It will be one week tomorrow afternoon that NicK has been in Cardiac ICU. I share this for a multitude of reasons, first of which is to let you know that if you have time any extra prayers or energy you may have could be used in Nick's ICU room.
I thought Stroke and made sure that the Fire Fighters were acutely aware of my concern (pardon my sailors mouth) that he had one hour to get to a stroke center and they assured me he was going to a Trauma Level 1/Stroke and Cardiac center. From the time I called 911 and him being prepared for emergency surgery was 22 minutes....they would not allow me in the ambulance, in ER, I had my phone that they would contact me on which is Heartbreaking, leaves you feeling helpless, useless and now I am starting to feel it is almost criminal but I am still in the thick of it so forgive me and some of those kind of emotional based comments.
I begged them to please let me see him before surgery even with both my Indians they said no. We were finally given possible end of life permission. They hurried us down a hall, a nurse and a social worker were masking, gowning, gloving us as we began to run. We got to the Trauma room, had moments with him, met the Thoracic/Cardiac surgeon and I began the question is he going to make it? Dr said he is in the best place possible. I repeated the question and he said I am going to do everything I can to help your husband. I said ok... what is your success rate? He said most. I begged him to get NicK into the most, please. We were able to follow him down the hall to surgery and a social worker who got us in said we could go home and they would call. I said we will be in the parking lot in the car. She worked up the chain and got us into a surgical waiting room for the 5 hr open heart surgery. After surgery I was allowed to see NicK for 2 minutes before being escorted out by security. Since then I have not been able to see him, touch him, stroke his head...it is absolutely Heartbreaking.
The reason? COVID 19. I asked while he was in surgery of the nurses, the social worker how many COVID patients are there at the top hospital we are at. They said a couple. Not a few, not a handful, not a lot, a floor.... they get it but......in surgical waiting when the head surgery nurse was wearing scrubs and nothing more when she told us we could take off the protective gear as it was going to be hours. When she returned to give us an update I asked if I could hug her and she said absolutely and I hugged on her weeping....the social worker was the same.....
I'm not judging any one of anything I am just telling you my upfront and personal experience with a crisis in the middle of this pandemic.
It's going to take a lot of time for Nick to recover and not seeing him, I believe, is hampering his recovery. Not to a deadly point but the process of healing, especially when on sedation for ventilator has got to be having an affect.
So, prayers and enegies if you can, leave passwords with SOMEONE or a password manager especially if you are the company. Please realize that there are unintended consequences in trying to find the balance between lives and livelyhoods and believe we are all doing the best we can with what we have and when we know better we can do better.
Because both are alive, withdrawing life support from either or both can have deadly consequences.
WE are a collection of small businesses and WE are dependant on the survival of both their lives and their livelyhoods and believe me when I say it is an incredibly hard line to walk.
Ps for those of my family here, whom are also friends of mine on Facebook, I ask that you please not desiminate this information as I do have client/friends and I do NOT wish to alarm them until we are further along and out of the woods.
Happy Mother's day to Mom's and happy Parents Day to the Dad's who wear ladies bloomers in addition to their loin cloths.

I'm having trouble thinking of a job that doesn't produce something of some kind. I think you're exaggerating so I have to wonder why you're exaggerating. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I can think of a bullshit job that I am paid to do that doesn't produce any kind of a "thing" and that is mucking horseshit. Technically in 105*f heat all animal shit is bullshit. :fire:

To be honest, I am starting to worry about the deaths resulting from reduced wealth in the long run. Lower income, joblessness, stress, less money for welfare programs in the long run may all contribute to deaths for years to come. In that sense the current answer to covid-19 needs to be carefully weighed against those effects that cause future deaths. — Benkei

That would be comparing efforts to save COVID 19 patients to the efforts that are going to be needed to heal the damage to our society long after a Vaccine and treatment are common place.

edit: I don't have the sense anyone is doing that yet. The Netherlands just announced borrowing 93 billion extra. That's about 25% of existing debt and about 3 times as much as we borrowed extra in 2008. What does that mean for society as a whole in the long run? — Benkei

Every small business has been doing that since the shut down. What it means in the financial forecast is that the money borrowed is paid back down stream. Our kids and grandkids are going to be paying it.
The damages to any society that are emotion based are much harder to heal from than any problem money can solve.

My final exam, for the final math class I have to take to become a Social Worker on Monday.....
<pacing>

I've voted as well as if I could. I voted third party. — Benkei

If you are from Chicago you can vote more than once :wink:

Both TDS and TD accomplish the same task... what you wrote doesn't appear to address anything I've posted. — praxis

I am sorry for I can only provide information. I cannot be responsible for the readers comprehension if there is no honest effort to understand the spirit of my post.

I wrote the above because we do not currently have a "banging my head against the wall" emoticon. :flower:

That accomplish the same task. I could, for example, say that you have a weak character or say that you’re immoral. Both could be used as an ad hom attract in an effort to influence the weak minded (such as a trump supporter) to dismiss basically anything you say. — praxis

It may seem insignificant to you but NOS has a point. Let me take it out of the political setting and show you what I mean.
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder came to be an actual diagnosis: DSM-5 309.81.
In any field of medicine the Dx is hugely important as it helps define treatment protocol and standards. If a patient has a Dx of any kind and switches Doctors the Dx is a great place to start for the new Doc. Awesome!

With one caveat: mental health. There is a stigma placed on people who suffer from a mental health symptom which might be totally "situational" and over a period of time and learning coping skills to deal with it and the diagnosis is no longer applied. Just like a woman is diagnosed pregnant and carrying a baby does not continue being treated under a pregnancy Dx (8 weeks is what I think the Ob/Gyn can do) after the baby is born but it is part of their medical record. Which is protected (telemedicine has flexed the rules during the pandemic) under HIPPA laws and no employer has the right to those records with due cause and absolute concent from the patient.

However when you put a term like "disorder" or "syndrome" and attach it to a phenomen, by nature people look at you differently, as though your condition is permanent. That is why people in the medical field, mental health especially being considered, have changed the term to PTS ( which George Bush Jr.. emphasizes because of his work with the wounded warriors) as it allows the period of growth, a way to settle into a new way but one with no limits.

PTS if it applies but I pray that most warriors become PTSG: post traumatic stress growth.
Simple terms carry a lot of meaning in both the medical field and society we live in.

Yeah but Schiff was consumed with impeachment when the first whispers of COVID 19 hit our capital.

Impact of the "social distancing" which really should be called "physical distancing" is going to last I know but today I felt the first hit to my heart.
I was walking into the grocery store and my pharmacist (we have become friends over time) was walking out. Our eyes met 6 feet apart and I mouthed to her that I love her and miss her. It was clear that by the tears welling in her eyes that she felt the same. She gave air huggs to me and I to her and we parted like lovers in the night. I made it through the first isle before I felt the tears coming and I couldn't stop. This is really hard to not have touch with people. I am a huggy person and hug hello and hug goodbye. And my children will tell you that I hug strangers all the time if it looks like it would warm their hearts.
When I go out, without a mask, I smile brightly because I can and it feels like society needs it.

It can be seen as "risky" behavior or selfish but it is real and I cannot live like this long and I won't.
I am still the one holding the door for another, complimening the ladies beautiful outfit, making babies laugh in the grocery store and give a thumbs up to kids playing with each other.

Whether I lose my life trying to descelate a domestic violence situation or dying because I hugged someone who needs it, if it happens than I think that is the way it is was supposed to end. Don't misunderstand me, I do not wish to die but I am not going to be afraid to live. I have a lot to do, a lot to give and a heart full of love.

This company seems to be a better modeling format. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/03/bluedot-used-artificial-intelligence-to-predict-coronavirus-spread.html
This technology (if you read and watch) takes factors into consideration that the old models do not.

It explains why some countries got a head start.

I’m with you. But if it’s one thing we can count on it is the fallibility of human prediction. Who knows? Maybe we can quickly recover. — NOS4A2

I'm sorry to show weakness but I am getting ready to give in on giving up hope. :worry: it's hard to see the screen through the tears....

Frightening forecasts. — NOS4A2

Breathing through this moment preparing for the next. Even when it feels like we are all gasping for life in one way or another.
I find myself holding my breath..... Maybe I'm tired but I am not sure how long I can take this. . emotionally.
Two family members were diagnosed with cancer, both over 75 and neither one of the Cancer's are treated with chemo or radiation because they don't have an affect on the cancer.
Really? Did we find a cure I am unaware of?
My suspicion is that the medical treatment protocol for people over X age old is not seen as "worth it". But two people who are unrelated getting the same wording about the protocol for two different cancers. I smell bullshit happening behind the scenes.

Àaaaaaaaaarggghhh when we get out of our stay at home it's going to be over 100* . Last time we were out it was 70*. Dear heavens it's going to be a long summer.

Hi Athena, The Dark Elf and Seagull, welcome to The Philosophy Forum :flower:
Are you speaking of your voice being ignored here? I am curious if you are female as I am and just want to make sure you feel welcome.
Please feel free to @ArguingWAristotleTiff on a thread and I might be able to contribute.
Warm welcomes
Tiff

Still looking https://nyulangone.org/news/node/17243

Pardon my tongue but that ^^^^^^ is fucking amazing!

if there are indicators that certain COVID patients would be at a higher risk of death from being ventilated, in the case of respiratory failure, that would be a good incentive not to ventilate them. — fdrake

Thank you for taking the time to consider options. One of the problems is the vent tube clogging with fluid that closes the tube like cement.
If we bypass the mouth and provide air through a tracheotomy it might have a better success rate. It was tried on a patient by a Thoracic surgeon who happened to have the clearance in the hospital protocols to instead of intubation he performed a trach and it worked. I am pressed for time right now but I will provide the link when I return. For now this is what I am looking at.

Almost everyone currently on a ventilator dies. — fdrake

The treatment protocol is fluid at best but there is emeging correlation between when a COVID 19 patient is vented and the survival rate.
I am not sure when we will confirm causation but until then we are grasping at any possible way of treating the COVID 19 patients.

May I just remind us that we "practice" medicine?
Science based evidence, controlled trials, double blind studies: what ever word you choose to use doesn't change the fact that it is not medical "answers". Our health care providers are simply the instruments that medicine is "practiced" through.
I am not going to appeal to the "higher power" or God for authority but I do believe that
"The power that made the body can heal the body."
Whether it is the power acquired by education by our Doctors who treat presenting symptoms or the scientists in the lab working to find treatments, cures, vaccines....it still applies.

The other guy. It's not that hard. And I warned you about him last time. — Benkei

The other guy is literally having his onset of senility propped up on display. The election is over unless Joe drops out and someone else comes in.

Yes Benkei, you did in fact warn me about Trump but the idea of Hillary handling this pandemic is unthinkable.

Yeah, set me a cold one on the bar and let the music begin.

Talking of beer, I am having to ration it. They are not letting the shops sell booze, of all of the stupid ideas. — Sir2u

Whoa! Now that would start a civil war if anything would. I heard of one politician in another state that tried to shut down liquor sales and within 8 hrs reversed course.
Come on over Sir! We can ride horseback to our local watering hole El Encanto Dos, where there is a corral to leave your ride while you indulge in some of the best Mexican food this side of the border. Their Prickly Pear Margaritas go down so easy and are for sale curbside even during this worldwide shitshow.
They say we will be flirting with 100*f on Cinco De Mayo but that's just fine with me. The drinks are cold, the air is heavy with the smell of Mesquite embers smoking the fajita meat, the night birds are actively begging for a chip and the small trickle of water is just enough to hear in between the live Mariachi music. Sweet Lord what a celebration it will be :party:

How can the U.S. presidential election this November NOT be soley a referendum on tRUMP's criminal negligence evident from the start of this pandemic which has produced - and will continue to produce - so much needless "American Carnage"? Someone please explain it to me. — 180 Proof

I ask this in all sincerity, what other option do we have?
Also: what do you think the election 7 months from now will look like? Operationally speaking.
My best of health to you :heart:

Okay shits flying with the Grands. My Mom and Dad (step since 8) are living at home about 30 minutes from our ranch.
Things were going swimmingly until they needed salt for the water softener. Dad said they needed salt so he would go get it. Mom said she would go with but first asked "Are you going to wear your face mask and gloves?" (Dad has MANY comorbidities) he answered that he is going to wear his mask. Mom asked "and the gloves?"
Dad said no gloves.
Mom said "then I am not going!"
Dad said fine.
Now I ask you: did he really not want to wear the gloves? Or did he want to go alone?
How clever is the male mind at 76?

Ps.. of course I have been offering daily to get them anything they need but they tell me AFTER they do it for themselves. Who are these people?

So when is the party? :party: — Sir2u

Cinco De Mayo mi amigo! :party:

Indulge me in really weighing fairly the following question: If the COVID 19 broke out in Arizona instead of New York, would the desicision to shut the country down have been the same?
Would people in Chicago be staying at home?
I just ask that you ponder it before answering.

If you're stuck in the spinning swirling crashing death spin, you might as well enjoy the ride. Do you want your last breaths to be spent trembling and clinging to whatever you can hold onto until it too fractures into a million pieces?

It's the response of the unscarred soul that has never experienced true devastation, so it lives with the illusion that there really is stability to lose. True optimism is forged in trauma, so the most fearful are those who haven't ever felt walked in sufficient darkness, so they live their lives trying to avoid it, which only leads them to something worse. It's that frigid timid place of worry and fret where you hold onto whatever makes you feel stable, despite you're not realizing that whatever it is you hold onto is infinitely more fragile than the divinity impregnated in you. If you'd only step away and stand on your solid feet, you'd realize that is the only thing that won't falter. — Hanover

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Frightening. State-enforced economic collapse. Capitalism hasn’t failed; it was murdered by the state. — NOS4A2

This reply has been posted on The Philosophy Forum Facebook page.
Congratulations and thank you for your contribution.

I have to agree with this. The bottom line is that we have to adjust to a way of living which limits the spread of the virus sufficiently that it can be kept under control. I think the economy can be kept running as well, but the necessary adjustments are not easy for communities to adopt sufficiently. Each country seems to have imposed a lockdown when this equation was not going to be possible to sustain. The quicker communities adjust, the quicker they can go back to work.

The adjustment looks like a regime of widespread testing and contact tracing, social distancing measures where people remain at least 2m apart. Wear masks, possibly gloves in certain circumstances and sanitise or wash their hands regularly when in public places. Bars and restaurants will have to have customers widely spaced and take care not to let the virus get into their kitchens, or behind the bar. Unfortunately large mass gatherings are going to have to wait longer before we can return to these due — Punshhh

We are willing to follow the guidelines and ultimately it is going to come down to trust which is what it has always been. Do we trust the people who are cooking our food? Do we trust the Priest who is preaching? Do we trust the Doctors who are treating us?

The basic choice seems to be between contributing to the health of people or the health of the economy. This has to be, at least largely, a false dilemma. In any scenario, the economy will be badly affected. Who knows, maybe it would have been more harshly affected without the measures that have been taken. There could have been massive labor strikes and associated public unrest, an overtaxed healthcare system, and so on. The economy seemed ripe for a downturn anyway. — praxis

If it is a "false dilemma" then I sure do hope it is "false" money that we are throwing at this to satisfy the beast we call the economy. How solid are you in your home and savings? I hope you are able to say paid for and not to worry, I have enough money to last anything the world throws at you.
"Associated public unrest"...huh.....like what?
Tell me what that would look like to you.

Personally I think the modelling approach to prediction took a big hit during this pandemic. Even as educated guesses they were way off, but were nonetheless used to guide public policy. I bet we’ll see a new generation of climate change deniers and conspiracy theorists because of it. I think the opposite will be said of research and the medical profession. — NOS4A2

I have to agree with you and it is unfortunate for a lot of people around the nation, maybe around the globe but as unenlightened rightfully pointed out "maybe's" aren't enough but then again I am not sure what is "enough".

I’m really sorry about your father. I suppose that is a comfort. My grandmother passed away peacefully last week. She didn’t get sick from the virus and has been in palliative care since January, but I wasn’t allowed see her. There can be no funeral, no wake, no nothing. — NOS4A2

I thank you for your words of comfort and would like to offer up my condolences on the loss of your Grandmother. No one in this world should have to die alone and it is a going to be a slow unwind once we are able to slow down our anxiety enough to breathe and grieve.

I wish I was able to be with every person that has to have passed alone, for it is not to be that way in my eyes. I know there is a Tsunami of grief waiting just outside the front door and I am ready to help, really I am. I wish I could have been with you when your Grandmother passed to comfort you as we all blaze this new way, and a shitty way I might add, to have a loved one pass without you. :broken:

My own business has dried up so much that I’m living on my savings. I’m not sure how long that can last. — NOS4A2

Said the proud businessperson through no fault of their own was shoved off the cliff of fear to save their fellow citizens.

Thank you.

It’s crazy to think about. Many of us might be without homes within the year. I suspect that within the decade historians will look back and say we took the wrong approach. Best of luck. — NOS4A2

Reading your words turned my stomach back to 2008 when we lost our health insurance because it was that or the mortgage. We lost that margin and never recovered it. My parents are watching their lifetime investments decimated and I have no idea when I will see either of them. My only blessing is that my Dad (biological) passed away before this because isolation would have taken his life and he would have had to passed alone.
Hardly a comfort but trust me it is...

Now if the whole virus doesn't produce immunity, it's hard to see how a vaccine would work, and we might just have to get used to a lot of people dying a lot younger and being ill a lot oftener. But I wouldn't be in a great rush to welcome that situation — unenlightened

Herd immunity for those who are healthy....there is something to be said for it. My feeling is if you feel slated as at risk then please stay home. If you feel vulnerable but aren't sick, stay at home. If you feel as though you are contributing by staying at home, please stay home. I want vaccines, I want immunity testing, I want an oxygen meter for every person who wants to know if what they are experiencing is Covid or Influenza as there is a trend in people feeling fine with O2 readings well below 90 which is NOT normal and shows up days in advance of becoming critical. I want to be able to donate plasma if I know I have had it, I want my indian who we think had it to donate plasma, I want to do everything I can unenlingtened but can I still preserve my own life while doing so?

The northeast definitely needed lockdown. The rest of us? It's hard to say what would have happened with a more limited approach. — frank

I know it is for the betterment of the greater good but I just don't know how we are going to fare. We are making arrangements to backstop one of our indians whose job came to a halt and is in Phase 4 of reopening. I have to hand it to the younger generation of being flexible and adapting to new ideas in this new world but it's not my first rodeo, house fire or major tragedy and my bones aren't as resilient as they once were.

Do you think Trump lost ground due to this? — frank

No, I think he has done as best he could with what he knew at the time. I don't for a minute think it was a death toll risk ratio for him as in a way of delaying any steps leading up to the shut down. In fact it has been a comfort to know that our current President has been our advocate through these past four years. What I do think is the WHO and science has to allow the exchange of information as promised but not delivered accurate, timely nor willingly. That is inexcusable and we need to look at how we want to go forward armed with the knowledge we will have in hindsight.

So much for 2020 Vision eh?

Excellent article!
I especially liked this at the end: How do you see science changing after the pandemic?
We’re reporting on how research and researchers’ lives may be permanently changed by the coronavirus. In what ways do think things will be different in the years ahead?