What science do you mean? Opening up everything on May 1st would be a self-destructive move in terms of the virus unless you have a proper system of tracking and tracing plus masks for everyone plus continued social distancing etc. — Baden

You tell me what AZ should do:
Live Updates by Zipcode
Orders by the Governor to shut down
Why close?
And here is our roadmap forward laid out by our Governor

Otherwise, you'll just go back to square one and have to face closing down again for exactly the same reasons you originally did. — Baden

Which were laid out on a national level by our President.
Were we as Phoenicians ever in danger of the horror that is occurring in NY?
And if you can answer that "Yes" then what is the danger level now when we are "staying at home"? Before you answer that considering the health of the individuals; remember that there is the health of the community and the economy that breathes life into our society that at this moment is on life support. Unlike socialist countries philosophies, the USA is based on taking care of our own, beginning at home, to our neighbor and hence our community. But my "interacting community" is much different than yours or anthers so I cannot dictate how you handle it, how Turkey handles it or any other country does. All I can do is take care of me so I can take care of those around me.

The sad part is as you indicated that even when you do open up, the economy will still be screwed apart from online retailers, distance services, and the like. I mean even apart from the problems you mentioned, no person in their right mind is going to go rushing to a ball game or a bar in the middle of a pandemic just because Trump or some other equally stupid official says its OK. — Baden

So very sad and tragic but I can only do the best I can with what I have and right now I am living on the edge. NicK is the sole provider and we are made up of small to med size businesses my friend. You can see how fragile the whole thing called life is. When we focus our attention on one issue, we solve it, but we also take our eye off the collective ball that keeps us moving.

I push on with my studies to get that Social Work degree to help people professionally, God knows there is a need.

There are a couple things that thrive with a stay at home order:
*Spousal abuse
*Child abuse
*Alcohol abuse
*Drug abuse

What is the answer? There is a lot of wisdom in the idea that the cure cannot be worse than the dis-ease but we may have already past that point...

Stay in the shade Tiff. :victory: — Sir2u

Sir, I am on my last chapter of flipping math for my degree! :fire:

If a vaccine eliminated the coranavirus tomorrow, shouldn't we keep the economy closed down indefinitely, considering we'll see a predictable spike in death from car accidents and other communicable diseases if we don't, or is our objective only to eliminate coronavirus deaths specifically? I wasn't sure how we are to compute the importance of human life versus making money. Maybe it's just we hate the coronavirus so much we want to kill it regardless of the cost. — Hanover

Tomorrow might be soon enough for some people as well as businesses but for us? It's a crap shoot. Of our 15 businesses, 1 surgeon and one retail store have closed their doors forever. Two of the remaining 13 have applied for the SBA loan/grant but have not received a WORD about where they are in the 'que', if they need to reapply for this second attempt to backstop their business.
Yes, we at the ranch are considered "essential" for business since NicK does companies internet ability and has converted the majority of our clients onto a telecommute platform where needed.
Here is the problem we are necessary for companies to keep their networks protected, which they know they have to keep up in order to return when AZ opens but, BUT we cannot make offer a reduction in fees because we utilize a platform that we pay for. So the sun rises, so the sun sets. I get it.
My beef: we responsibly shut down our economy based on the science and now the science says we will be ready to open May 1st BUT our Mayor disagrees with the same science and said there are other things to consider. What other things?
I despise people who move the goal posts in life and she is no different. Our Governor has given the green light on May 1.
I know what I want to have happen, as I am sure any other self employed, no such thing as unemployment checks Phonecians want to do but the social blowback is a risk worthy of consideration. If we open back up in phases starting May 1st, Phoenicians will be returning to our states off season and that means any service job won't be back until October. 90 days unemployment for my friend who works at the 4seasons ain't going to cut it.
Here is another kicker: one of our best friends is an RN and has been put on another month of furlough. Our hospitals are empty and not going to survive without a bailout.
We cannot treat a nation of states with a blanket advisement, we are too large and too diversified in our work. The one common thread is Americans feel pride in our work and contribution to a common good but at what cost is a question worth considering.

@Shawn
An update: my friend who works in the toxicology lab in a NY hospital, the man I forwarded your idea to, has himself fallen ill to COVID 19. It is not surprising but alarming all the same as he quarentines with a baby just over a year old and his lovely wife. I hope he gets through this okay. Prior to working in NY he did an internship at a Jungle hospital in Peru and enjoyed the f#$& out of it. Ironic that I worried about him contracting something deadly in Peru but once he was home in NY I let my guard down because he was 'home'.
:pray:

My point here is that there all sorts of lesser but real casualties that this thing has brought about. I can't help but to feel sad for her, now having to be without me. — Hanover

I'm saddened to hear such of such intolerance but I'm not surprised. Having been at home for the last 23 yrs raising the family and now in virtual school has created a work day that is 28/9/366 with my partner.

We have space but I feel an undercurrent that is unsettling. I know that divorce rates are up, suicide is up, spousal and domestic abuse is up as is the use of any vice in the extreme whether that is good, drugs, sex or the loss of any of the three.

Touch deprevation is a real thing and something to be aware of. Virtual hugs to you

No. We should probably verify this with your mom though. — praxis

Okay we are officially off course here with your Momma jokes :joke:
Having said that: you don't necessarily get 12 eggs from 12 chickens. Lots of chickens will lay lots of eggs and others are just as content to lay on golf balls. True story.
Another take on eggs and chickens: do to odd circumstances we had to clean out a barn and there were lots of eggs but some were old. We tossed out the eggs in a wheel barrow of horse muck and when we emptied the barrow a couple days later, we found a couple of dead chics. The heat outside and the shade of the compost was the perfect incubator. I just wish we would have known. :broken: After that any unknown eggs were fed to the pigs and chickens, and yes chickens eat their eggs if you break them.
One last total distracted fact but relevant all the same: an dozen chicken eggs is about the same quantity as what you get out of an Ostrich or Emu egg. The Gold Gilded Egg that is so valuable is the size of an Ostrich egg.

And I realize this is RT but it has another view of what is happening, There is a point system as to whom to "save" and as crude as it is, where people's baseline health is plugged into an equation that takes into consideration what the chances are that the person will survive: ie: commodities and what 'value' the person has to the future ie: their profession. It's raw but it happens and I would like to think that our society didn't use such a grading system but it happens.

I have been reading along but my song stopped when I realized that maybe this item was not as well published around America.

I have a father with many commodities and has his DNR card updated monthly and well placed on him and the refrigerator at home. IF something were to happen to him at this point in time, nothing would be attempted per his desire. HOWEVER my MOM would only get one shot if she were to flat line. She with an Afib is taking care of him at home. How the F* is that fair? He is 100% paced with a pacemaker and no desire to live and she has the desire to live long past him.

See where things tend to get 'sticky' when trying to save lives via policy?

I'm kind of used to it. I think you'd be a good one to work with. Going to RN school? — frank

Social Worker with chemical dependency is my first destination and then I would like to work for Hospice.
Mom was a nurse starting with Trauma Level 1, Cardiac ICU and ending at Hospice of the Valley. I would like to volunteer as an 11th hour Hospice Social Worker but in time, and with some pushing, I would like to be a death dula that helps people cease living at home, at the time of their choosing with those they wish to have with them. I think it can be a beautiful journey when kept home. :heart:

No. — Benkei

From the quick look up that I could see suggests the jury is still out on a difinitive answer.

It can be spread by fecal matter so why it would not be shed in blood as well is something that doesn't add up.

here I am covered in plastic, thank God I remembered my anti-fogger spray, turn the vent off, pull the ETT, cover head in plastic, prepare for the long journey of cleaning this vent up for the next person.

What's so weird is that when I usually withdraw support, the whole family is in the room. It's only with homeless people that the RN and I do this alone. But now everybody dies alone. I haven't gotten to know any of these people. — frank

Frank, you are someone to whom I am trying to reach about the mental stress you are enduring. I'm sorry you are having to go through this with such a Stoic approach at the same time it comforts me to know that someone like you IS with the spirit of the person when they pass.
Angels surround you :sparkle:

Thank you for your being here. :flower:

As with any major life event we have proven "coping skills". It is different in the sense of us all having it happen to us at relatively the same time but I think the rule still applies. Do not make any major life decisions until at least 6 months after the tragedy.
The mental health crisis is just starting to come to people as they are able to slow down enough to recharge and the mind starts to process what they did see ie the first responders and what the mind has not been able to see /grasp as people with loved ones die alone to protect the living. For those denied the right to hold the hand of their loved ones during their final breath, they have not begun the grieving process.
We need one another and no one will survive this alone. Together we can push on in memory of those lost, in spite of our political differences. We are being given a chance to reform, recalibrate, reorder our priorities. Let's make sure before we rush back in, that what we rush to is really something we want back.

Just called my previous psych unit. Going back there, and planning a prolonged stay. — Shawn

Like Sir said get the help and keep with us here. Together we will get through this :heart:

We should spare a thought or a prayer for the millions of unfortunate souls who will suffer at this unfortunate time.
1d — Punshhh

I will continue to pray for all the of Mother Nature's creatures both human and nonhuman.
My friend Scott Neeson is on the front lines in Cambodia and I try not to alarm him.

or if we want to avoid pandemics we should take a cue from the Japanese and stop hugging, shaking hands and kiss for greetings. — Benkei

Not me, not ever. Human touch is necessary for life :sparkle:

have some evidence of them not buying ventilators that they were offered, not testing carers and health workers or providing any protection. My daughter, for example, is an OT in a major hospital dealing with the old and disabled extensively with, count it, zero protective equipment and zero testing. — unenlightened

Jesus Christ!
Did anyone take the time to show an iota of empathy or extend some kind of compassion to what unenlightened just said?
Fer fucks sake, we are ALL in this together and I pray we all make it through this.
Until then grab some grace for what others are going through before fingers are pointed.

I have not seen much news from your area, but from seeing the area you live in, I doubt that you have problems keeping yourselves away from your neighbors. What is happening in the towns around you, are they telling people to stay in their houses? — Sir2u

Interesting when they show the Coronavisus spread Mexico is without a case but as soon as you get to either border, there are cases. Hmmmmmmm....... :brow:
Here at the ranch we are far enough out that I have to seek interaction. No need for eggs as we get them from our neighbor who has the Cock and chickens because the sun comes up early. The sun wakes the Cock, the Cock wakes the Burros, the Burros wake the dogs and the fuckening of good sleep has begun. The trick is to wake up before the Cock and make him understand who started this day! Yeah.... I am a little bit stressed but the heat is coming, soon, like next week.
I saw some kids at Rice University.truly made a game changer.... check it out
Remember the nursery rhyme about Old McDonald's farm? The last line has been ruminating in my head ultimately when I pray/focus energy on healing which is:
"The nurse takes the child, the nurse takes the child, hi ho the dairy o the nurse takes the child. AND the child leads us home, the child leads us home, hi ho the dairy o the child leads us home."
I believe that as our children will think our way through this.

I don't know — 180 Proof

I will take this under serious consideration maybe even my Mantra.
I hope you are well my friend :flower:

I can't even bring myself to think ahead for more than 24 hours at this point — Maw

Would it help you to know that I was considering Yang? :victory:

How many people are you willing to support sacrificing? — praxis

I feel like you are trolling me. :down:
Iggy :flower:

I like your positive attitude, Tiff. Never forget that moral collective compass and that lot more, or otherwise all those guns you have will make a truly toxic cocktail. — ssu

Guns are not going to solve anything in this scenario.

I think we are seeing the best of humanity come together to live another day, all of us. Our world was in need of a crisis because the unexpected consequences are bringing us together and that is huge.

There is little bickering between nation's and more cooperation and that my friend is something to take stock in. We are being tested, We as inhabitants of this Earth and we will beat this as best we can. :strong:

a step in the right direction, in my opinion. I think a sort of juggling act between lockdown and tentatively opening the economy is the reasonable approach. — NOS4A2

Yes! Please!

This global pandemic hitting us in 2020 means that 20's have really a different tone historically as what came before it. Such collective experience from start of the decade has to have at least some effect how later people will view the 2020's to the 2010's. — ssu

Yes! And we have the choice as people and companies to create our new normal just like we did on 9/12/01. Our society is built upon our collective moral compass and a whole lot more. We should take the time to think about how we want/need our society to be structured.

Should we go with Nietsche's idea of a pyramid shaped society with the masses at the bottom and the power as you ascend? Or should we stratify that power across the steps on the ladder so more people can have upward movement as well as lateral movement.

The USA is activating the social welfare system that is one of our strengths and together we will emerge stronger for it.

Looking to thinkers online for stability is a by-product of loving people? Nevermind. :smile: — praxis

Yes and yes. :heart:

If I am not mistaken, the rate of infection is twice as high for a male than a female.
If that is the case, I suggest that females might have a higher rate of immunity because there is science out there that fetus blood cells remain in the mother's body for up to 15 yrs. So in the event of an emergency within the mother's body, the youngest cells to respond are as old as her last child, follow me? The second set of cells to respond are the older sibling if they have more than one child and finally mom's own cells arrive to the injury site. This happens even if the fetus is not carried to term.
There is something in that line of thinking that might help us if we can figure out why the increase in male over female.
Thoughts?

Perhaps so, but note that there are presently no approved immunity tests for covid-19. — Andrew M

But I am a firm believer in the right to try and that has to be made available to those who want to try a test that might still be in trial. The fact that there is community spread suggests that herd immunity might be measurable.

In the meantime, the community priority must be to suppress the virus before millions of people die. The window is closing. — Andrew M

I realize that the suppression is necessary to flatten the curve but we could be protecting our first responders with antibodies from people who have been infected and have recovered, no?

Frankly, it sounds like you’re in a greater need for stability than we are. I suggest you try to find it in whatever way works best for you. — praxis

Thank you for the reflection as I might very well be looking to my circle of thinkers for stability. It is a by product of loving people.

Yep, you got. I am freaking out reading emails, whatsapp, and school website, giving classes on line and a whole load of other crap.

Let me out of here soon, PLEASEEEEEEEEEE — Sir2u

I am nearing my limit as well....

Can I just gently say that we are blessed/fortunate/lucky to be able to have the time and good health to be debating this? If you have read this post this far in than may I give you a virtual hug and inhale your stress and exhale stability into you. It works better than throwing profanity at one another, I need you guys right now but I also need civility.
Can we work with that?

Yeah, I’ve heard that too about tonic water. Time to head out and buy a palette of it. — NOS4A2

Nah, unless you get Vodka or Gin with it :wink:

The spread of the virus must be brought under control first - the alternative is many unnecessary deaths.
1m — Andrew M

Until we can start testing communities we won't know where herd immunity exists. If we can ID those people, we can send them to our front lines of needs.

Specifically this tweet, and this article. — NOS4A2

Gotcha. I just wanted to make sure it was clear it was tried and one person passed away as a result of doing it.
Along the same lines, isn't one of the drugs the active ingredient in Tonic water? Much diluted I get but I am just curious.

Is there some dispute as to whether or not a couple of fellow Phonecians actually did ingest fish tank cleaner as "fake news"?

Not my neighbor but

I'm not sure if it was Gov Cumo or Marc Cuban that suggested the way our economy could get through this mandatory shut down would be to instead of arguing over the SBA financial aid just let the business write their checks as usual, payroll, overhead, utilities ect and not allow the bank to bounce any checks. If the SB keeps their employees through this than it will be considered a grant but if they fire them, then it's considered a loan.
Thoughts?
And the first person to protect the fat cats sitting at the banks we bailed out before? You are my first: :zip:

Oh wait, they're both bullshit. — Benkei

Are you keeping track? :razz:

Some might remember my youngest indian was very sick after attending CES, a worldwide attended event in Las Vegas. 103* fever, dizziness, shortness of breath and he lost his sense of smell and taste.
Early January he was tested but without a COVID 19 test they ruled it as Influenza B but I doubt it was sent onto the CDC.
We have talked about herd immunity and if he did have it the other 14 students in his program got it.
I don't want him to be tested now because I am nervous about what they will want from him. 14 twenty something kids with herd immunity and do not do drugs or drink?
Worthy of studying for donors?

Thanks! It's strangely quiet right now (with rumbling in the distance) :grimace: — frank

You are doing a fantastic job and I can only imagine what anticipating a hurricane can feel like when you are on a surf board in the ocean.
Try to hang as loose as possible when able so you have the power and the endurance to hang on when it comes over you.
We are standing beside you ( socially distant ) but together in our mission.
Thank you for going to work because you love us AND we will stay at home because we love you :hearts:

I have read your response and I will leave your words to justify your intention.
It was uncalled for and unappreciated.

Optimism sounds like this: Things look bad, but I'm convinced we'll get together as a country and take care of each other to beat this virus. — Benkei

Woo hoo :party: Excellent approach Benkei!