Absolutely true. It's my bad, negative, counterproductive attitude that's caused all the trouble in the world; the alternatives I've suggested count for naught. That's what they told me when I was Cassandra. If I could bear it through 81 lives, I guess one more incarnation won't hurt any more. — Vera Mont

Whoo, I unexpectedly had to replace my monitor. I am glad it was the monitor that went down and not the computer.

I think you made an overstatement about your negativity causing all the trouble in the world. And I am very sorry but I do not remember your solutions. If I were not working, I would go through all your posts, but considering my time is limited can you help me out by repeating your solutions?

My goodness I am flattered.

In the hot tub this morning I spoke with a very nice couple. The woman was confident about there being a heaven and it became evident she had not given much thought to what she believes. I mention this because you said

most of us do appear to require novel experiences that constitute an enduring chain of days of value — Existential Hope

. So when the woman spoke of heaven, I mentioned I think we all desire novel experiences and a sense that we are needed and our lives make a difference, but how does that work in a perfect heaven? I can not imagine enjoying life without a sense of being needed and that we can make a difference.

My friend who just had a stroke seems to be doing well lying in a bed watching TV but his brain is not fully active. Oh, who was it who said something about our laws would be different if we were different? Augustine? I mean, Eve never would have touched the forbidden fruit if she had a less active brain. A God could have programmed us like the rest of the animals, some that are mated for life. :lol: But some are naughty, like the squirrels that steal each other's nuts, and use decent to bury a nut so that another will not dig it up. God did not have to give us free will and I don't think heaven could be perfect if He did not take away our free will. What do you think? As long as we have free will, some of us will pay a quarter of million dollars to risk our lives. :starstruck: You can't have that happening in heaven. Once we get there aren't we immortal? That might take all the fun out of those mountain hikes where people die trying to get to the top. What do you think?

Well, Athena has been typing a lot on the importance and influence of 'storytelling' in the human experience, and how it is and always has been a vital and very powerful tool in shaping the minds, and influencing the thinking of the next generation. I think that is very true, but which stories we emphasize and which fables are allowed to be peddled as true or fact, is where many of the big problems begin.
I think the story of science is 'the greatest story ever told.' I really enjoy sci-fi but we do need more sci and less fi, until enough humans become less easy to fool, all of the time. — universeness

What a wonderful suggestion! To evaluate which stories are helpful and why. The Greeks were concerned with individuals becoming the best they can be. This was not a government-enforced program and there were very serious debates about the good or bad of teaching people how to argue in such a way they win the argument, even if the idea they are pushing is very bad. Socrates would not have approved of the change in education, because Socrates was most concerned with morality, ethics, integrity, and the search for truth. You know, the culture that forms our thinking and actions.

And I think I best use the little free time I have this morning to reassure the man I have been helping that I do care about him. I hope there is not a feeding tube in his nose, but if that is what he must have, I am glad the medical people can make that decision and take the necessary action. It is so hard to see the tears in his eyes as he must go through this ordeal again. It is his 3rd stroke and I am afraid he will not regain the physical ability that is essential to living on the street. On the good side, I think this time he is going into a facility where he will get the help he needs, but maybe his free spirit would not find that tolerable. Ouch, this hurts. The decisions are not mine but what I say will affect outcomes. Any words of wisdom for this situation?

↪Vera Mont I understand. I was only trying to stress that ideas such as a legacy and a potent positive impact can be meaningful. The negatives may not have ceased, but we could have been in a much worse place if certain people had not acted in a particular way.

Yes, and the key word there is "necessarily". They could be better (and we often tend to think so), but the opposite is not out the question either. I do think that we can reasonably conclude that one outcome was better than another. For example, having studied India's past and its continual conquests as a result of internal conflicts, I find it improbable that further fragmentation (after the loss of countless innocent lives) would have been good for humanity as a whole.

It will see definitely continue, and the extent to which we are hampered will always be altered by factors that are both within and outside our control. — DA671

I want to support what you said about ideas having impacts on our lives and speaking of them one at a time is much more beneficial than ignoring the good because there is bad. And I am not sure if there is a better reality to be had?

I have no desire to have an eternal heaven of goodness. There would be no great novels and movies in such a reality. We would have no problems to resolve and our existence would be totally meaningless! The thrill of life is having problems to resolve and having a sense of meaning as we struggle to determine for ourselves what is a good idea and what is a bad one. Personally, I love Socrates' contribution to democracy and discussing the importance of education and exactly what should the young be educated about? What is culture about and how is it transmitted?

I would really like this thread to be about culture, not an argument against one person's negativity because at the moment I don't see any good coming out of that argument.

Yes - they influenced warring, racist, slave-owning, religious crusading, imperialistic, clergy- aristocracy- and banker-ridden, nationalistic, militaristic, plague-carrying, mass-murdering, European civilization, which they then forced on other peoples around the world. And that's a good thing? OK — Vera Mont

What I do not see as good is your attitude. "a settled way of thinking or feeling about someone or something, typically one that is reflected in a person's behavior." All the problems in the world are not correctly set on Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle because there are as many positives, so it is like arguing the cup is half full or half empty. All the good also comes from that past and our democracy is one of them. To be clear I am saying our democracy, liberty, and justice for all, comes from the past, but I do not like the militaristic decisions made since the end of WWII.

Really? Well, they sure got bigger in the ensuing 2000 years! What is the "before" you're comparing the "since" to? And how do you measure the contribution of Socrates vs the contribution of Paul of Tarsus - or all the other men who wrote down philosophies along the way? — Vera Mont

If I could, I would send you to 1400 Europe for a three-week vacation and then ask you if you think anything has improved. I am bored with the way you have lumped all the bad together and speak of it as though it were the only reality. This discussion of everything is a discussion of nothing. It is just two people being negative or positive and I have much more important things to do than continue such as argument.

Pessimists don't complain; they know it would be a waste of breath. They observe and comment and predict. — Vera Mont

They spread their attitude and nothing good can come from that. It just is not constructive.

Socrates didn't lead anybody anywhere. Some students in the distant future were influenced by ideas in their thinking. Not as many many as were influenced by Marx or Zoroaster, but some.
And then what? It did him no good. It didn't change the governance or future of Athens. It subtracted nothing from the worship of gods, which continues to this day and beyond. It didn't end slavery, halt religious conflict, prevent territorial wars, curtail imperialism, end racism, sexism, ideological madness or genocide. — Vera Mont

My goodness, Socrates has influenced western civilization for centuries. He was Plato's teacher and Plato was Aristotle's teacher, and I can not think of anyone who has influenced Western civilization more. These men have influenced much more of the world than Athens.

The Catholic church developed Scholasticism based on the teachings of Plato and Aristotle.

[qutoe]The Scholastic period
The period extending from the beginning of Christian speculation to the time of St. Augustine, inclusive, is known as the Patristic era in philosophy and theology. In general, that era inclined to Platonism and underestimated the importance of Aristotle. The Fathers strove to construct on Platonic principles a system of Christian philosophy. They brought reason to the aid of Revelation. They leaned, however, towards the doctrine of the mystics, and, in ultimate resort, relied more on spiritual intuition than on dialectical proof for the establishment and explanation of the highest truths of philosophy. Between the end of the Patristic era in the fifth century and the beginning of the Scholastic era in the ninth there intervene a number of intercalary thinkers, as they may be called, like Claudianus Mamertus, Boethius, Cassiodorus, St. Isidore of Seville, Venerable Bede etc., who helped to hand down to the new generation the traditions of the Patristic age and to continue into the Scholastic era the current of Platonism. With the Carolingian revival of learning in the ninth century began a period of educational activity which resulted in a new phase of Christian thought known as Scholasticism. The first masters of the schools in the ninth century Alcuin, Rabanus, etc., were not indeed, more original than Boethius or Cassiodorus; the first original thinker in the Scholastic era was John the Scot (see JOHN SCOTUS ERIUGENA). Nevertheless they inaugurated the Scholastic movement because they endeavoured to bring the Patristic (principally the Augustinian) tradition into touch with the new life of European Christianity. They did not abandon Platonism. They knew little of Aristotle except as a logician. But by the emphasis they laid on dialectical reasoning, they gave a new direction to Christian tradition in philosophy. In the curriculum of the schools in which they taught, philosophy was represented by dialectic. On the textbooks of dialectic which they used they wrote commentaries and glosses, into which, little by little, they admitted problems of psychology, metaphysics, cosmology, and ethics, so that the Scholastic movement as a whole may be said to have sprung from the discussions of the dialecticians. https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13548a.htm [/quote]

Eventually, Aristotle (inductive reasoning) became all-important, and then Bacon brought in deductive reasoning and there was a huge backlash against Aristotle and inductive reasoning. At this point in time begins the modern age and the development of science as we know it.

Are you sure you want to continue your argument? The HUGE problem today is Christians are so ignorant of the importance of these men and their understanding of God which is Platonist.

So do dogs and rivers! And your own resilience. — Vera Mont

:grin: :heart: Thank you. I wish I could have my own dog, but bending over to pick up what a dog leaves behind is too painful for me and I can not afford vet bills. But I just had to buy a stuffed puppy when I lost my dog. That was harder for me to get over than dealing with people leaving. That was a visceral experience that lasted for weeks. I had to have a friend walk with me in the parks where I had walked my dog because I didn't think I could bare being in the parks again. Thanks to that friend, I am enjoying the parks again.

Well, Athena has been typing a lot on the importance and influence of 'storytelling' in the human experience, and how it is and always has been a vital and very powerful tool in shaping the minds, and influencing the thinking of the next generation. I think that is very true, but which stories we emphasize and which fables are allowed to be peddled as true or fact, is where many of the big problems begin.
I think the story of science is 'the greatest story ever told.' I really enjoy sci-fi but we do need more sci and less fi, until enough humans become less easy to fool, all of the time. — universeness

Thank you!

Read it now
The Aesop for Children interactive book is designed to be enjoyed by readers of any age. The book contains over 140 classic fables, accompanied by beautiful illustrations and interactive animations.

"Aesop's Fables"—also called "the Aesopica"—are a collection of stories designed to teach moral lessons credited to Aesop, a Greek slave and story-teller thought to have lived between 620 and 560 BCE.

Aesop's fables are some of the most well known in the world and have been translated in multiple languages and become popular in dozens of cultures through the course of five centuries. They have been told and retold in a variety of media, from oral tradition to written storybooks to stage, film and animated cartoon versions—even in architecture.

The fables remain a popular choice for moral education of children today. Younger scholars will be able to trace the origin of aphorisms such as "sour grapes" and "a bird in the hand." — Library of Congress

What I would like all citizens of the US to know is that these fables and fables from around the world have been used to teach morality since the beginning of secular public education. Originally our secular education was about transmitting a culture for a highly moral civilization and turning all our young into good citizens. Thoams Jefferson so such an education as vital to having a strong and united republic. This is the very reason I write. Christianity is no more compatible with democracy than Islam and the Koran. Both the Loran and the Bible originate updated versions of the Torah and these religions are divisive and favor a kingdom, not democracy. And education for technology is NOT education for good moral judgment and democracy.

Yes, indeed, there were, in the past, as now, many different people and if history had gone down differently, there would have been a different outcome.

. As in all human movements there needs to be leaders. Are you willing to be one?
— Athena
No thanks!
The first one gets crucified and becomes a folk-hero; the next thousand are tortured and killed in creative and humiliating ways; another 10,000 are wounded on the barricades or jailed. Then the side either wins and puts up all new flags and statues or loses and sinks into oblivion.
Who wants to look up at a homely version of Queen Victoria in her declining years?

Does anyone know how to deal with this emotional hijack?
— Athena

There are some things worth trying. Find a place - a park, a garden a balcony, even a favourite room, where you like everything your eye can possibly land on. If there are jarring or annoying bits, remove them or turn your back on them. Sit in comfortable chair with a soothing drink of choice, and just veg out. Let yourself drift for a while; don't think; don't try to process information; don't speculate or wonder. Just drift. Emotions come - don't try to analyze or resist them, just let them wash over you like waves. One passes on, another one comes to replace it, passes. They leave you tired and feeling empty. Then do a minimum of necessary chores and go to bed. Stay there as long as you need to.
When you get up again, cope with one thing at a time, until you feel in control again. — Vera Mont

Yipes your explanation of what happens to the good guy could be very depressing. However, there is an upside too. What is the saying, "A martyr is worth ten thousand of us." I often wonder if we would know of Socrates if he did not drink the hemlock instead of leaving Athens. To be known for centuries is a pretty big achievement and Socrates did lead us away from superstitious belief in the gods. Teachers impact the lives of many children and in some cases, the students impact the lives of others as the student goes on to do great things.

Sometimes we can have a strong influence on someone and not ever know it. There is another saying that when we meet someone, some of us goes with that person and we carry some of that person with us. We can see everything as interconnected and that our being could be more important than we will ever know. Like, our disagreement is equal to saying the glass is half empty or the glass is half full. Both are a reality.

About handling negative feelings I must find the energy to walk along the river. Another guy I help, would love it if I took him and his dog to the river path. I use a walker on the paths so I can sit wherever the view of the river is pleasing and wait for my friend with the dog to catch up with me. I am getting a deeper sense of why some Greeks argued that beauty and good music are important. Both are a part of good maintenance. So is reaching out to others. I feel supported by both of you and that helps a lot.

I do.
My reasoning normally begins around, 'I am not directly responsible for everything bad that happens to everyone in this world.' Then at some point (normally within the hour),' I get fed up being fed up and I reach the 'the next hour will pass, thought, regardless of whether or not I decide to pass it in a depressed and pessimistic state, or a renewed optimistic state.' I can choose, to live the next hour as a curse or I can go and look at something more positive. Maybe I can observe something positive happening, that happens all around me, all the time. The pulse of life and living continuing. I sometimes just look at my bookshelf, and that can do it, based on my own notions of legacy or I stare for a while at the big print I have on a wall of the hubble ultra deep field. Looking into the content of that print, always destroys any moments of depression, I may temporarily experience.
My final recovery, normally involves some personal gratitude to myself that events in the world and around me can still depress me, as that must mean I still give a shit!
Do not surrender to 'tock' Athena, when 'tick' still tolls for you!
2 hours ago — universeness

I do.
My reasoning normally begins around, 'I am not directly responsible for everything bad that happens to everyone in this world.' Then at some point (normally within the hour),' I get fed up being fed up and I reach the 'the next hour will pass, thought, regardless of whether or not I decide to pass it in a depressed and pessimistic state, or a renewed optimistic state.' I can choose, to live the next hour as a curse or I can go and look at something more positive. Maybe I can observe something positive happening, that happens all around me, all the time. The pulse of life and living continuing. I sometimes just look at my bookshelf, and that can do it, based on my own notions of legacy or I stare for a while at the big print I have on a wall of the hubble ultra deep field. Looking into the content of that print, always destroys any moments of depression, I may temporarily experience.
My final recovery, normally involves some personal gratitude to myself that events in the world and around me can still depress me, as that must mean I still give a shit!
Do not surrender to 'tock' Athena, when 'tick' still tolls for you!
2 hours ago — universeness

Thank you. I seriously need to find some way to get my forest mural on the wall. My apartment has paint that will not stick to the alien tape and the wall is too hard to put thumbtacks in it. But I think your suggestion of looking into a picture is excellent. My favorite place of beauty is along a river and in the forest.

Actually, a good night's sleep has done wonders and somehow I have to get his car windows up so the rain doesn't get in his car and also so I can lock his car before someone steals his stuff. Having something concrete to do helps. And my self-defense has kicked in with a sense of denial. We will see how my body reacts when I visit him this morning. I pick a great-grandson later this morning, for his special day with me, so I can not get upset. The child needs a positive influence. I need to keep moving forward.

Reading we are not responsible for what happens is helpful. I will work on that and I may actually walk by the river while I meditate on that point. Thank you.

Hey, folks. This morning the guy I was helping was found unconscious in the road by his car. The ambulance has taken him away and I don't know what happened or will happen next. I expect it was another stroke. If he survives I hope he will be given a place to live where people are paid to help him. Right now I am finding it extremely difficult to focus and process thoughts. I think I will rest and try participating in the forum this afternoon. Right now, I am wondering what the F? I did not expect to have emotions that make my brain feel like scrambled eggs. Does anyone know how to deal with this emotional hijack?

Well, then the conquest, the colonizing, the land-grabs, the land grants, the settlement, that whole big 'civilizing the wilderness' process couldn't have happened, could it? — Vera Mont

My reasoning involves an explanation of East India and Hinduism as well as some knowledge of the 6 Nations of the Iroquois The Hindu story begins with a violent war and comes to an agreement about having peace. I am not sure, but the agreement to have peace seems to rule, however, Muslims have forced war on them in some areas. And the British occupation led to violence.

According to their founding tradition, the Peacemaker story, these Iroquois peoples—who had warred with each other for decades—came together between 1570 and 1600 to live in peace and harmony after Hiawatha, a mourning Onondaga, joined the itinerant Peacemaker (Dekanawidah) in pursuing unity among the Iroquois. The resulting confederacy, whose governing Great Council of 50 peace chiefs, or sachems (hodiyahnehsonh), still meets in a longhouse, is made up of six nations: the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora. — Jeff Wallenfeldt

My conclusion is it is possible for people to live for peace and to benefit from forming unity. Each tribe would have sovereignty as the United States are supposed to have sovereignty. However, the warring Europeans have a different cultural motivation that I think is worth studying, and that all these groups of people need to be taken into consideration when discussing human nature. A continental civilization ruled primarily by those who have a spiritual relationship with the earth could have occurred. However, such a civilization may not develop technologically.

Who's "we"? — Vera Mont

Whoever wants to join us.

This is the question I keep coming back to. I don't think the US has any coherent collective; — Vera Mont

Would you please include those knowledgeable of Greek and Roman classics in the discussion of coherent collective? Preferably everyone who becomes one of us will be at least a little familiar with our history and cross-cultural studies or is at least willing to learn. If thinking stops with people only knowing their own life experiences that is not going to be helpful.

Can you look around at your fellow citizens and answer those questions? — Vera Mont

I think the answer is education and some awesome information is coming to us in the form of movies and documentaries. As in all human movements there needs to be leaders. Are you willing to be one?

I can't. Not about Canada and not about any modern federation. Even the organic European nations, like Denmark, have lost their monoethnicity and divided on key issues. — Vera Mont

Guaranteed things will keep changing. Civilizations tend to swing. When things get bad enough they swing in the opposite direction. But do all of your concerns really matter? The only one you control is you. In the 1960's we said, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". We can either devote ourselves to being part of the solution, or we can be part of the problem.

That's okay, I have things to do, too. We finally liberated that kitten from behind my bed and I have to clean the room and move the furniture back. — Vera Mont

:love: Good for you. You turned something bad into something good. Enjoy your freshly cleaned room.

Had to be done? Really? — Vera Mont

I wish you would join a philosophy group I am in, so we can talk face-to-face. I think the eye ball to eye contact would improve understanding.

About the US spreading from coast to coast. First off I wish the Native Americans had been able to hold their own ground, and that they had retained the governing power. Imagine if the Native Americans had the ruling power and the Europeans had to drop their baggage instead of repeating here the destructive ways of the countries they came from. My thoughts on this go with my strong desire for the US to have psychoanalysis. We need to explore that old baggage and the alternatives.

When I said the people of the US had to establish their civilization where there was wilderness, I did not mean this was a God-given mandate. I meant before they could do anything else, they had to turn the wilderness into the civilization we have today. Now that work is done, we can move on to rethinking everything and making necessary changes. Like take another look at the Native Americans and pick up some of their better ideas, like taking care of the environment is important! Their federation has benefits over European kingdoms. Like if you consider I may be on the same side of the arguments as you are, you may interpret what I am saying as I mean what I am saying, instead of imagining I oppose what you think.

Damn, excuse my pagan expression, but the timer says I am out of time and I must run. What a wonderful discussion we are having. I hate to leave.

Why, thank you! In 20 years I shall be 96 years and three weeks old. I just hope my arthritis doesn't get too much worse. But I guess my computer will work on thought control, or I'll have a support robot... — Vera Mont

So for how long have you engaged with others and how have you prepared to be a knowledgeable person? I think my ability has improved greatly in the last ten years thanks to the internet. And I love the college lectures provided by the Great Courses. For me, it is all like being in college but easier because I can do it at my time and at home. The forums are like gathering with other students to have a better understanding of what we want to learn and how we understand reality.

In the US the government owns and controls very little.
— Athena
time for some serious homework! — Vera Mont

Is that a hint? It is not a factual statement that contributes to the discussion.

... owned, occupied, hunted and revered by about 200 nations you choose not to acknowledge.... — Vera Mont

What are you talking about? What countries do I fail to acknowledge and what should that acknowledgment be? What do those countries have to do with the very rapid change of a wilderness to overpopulated cities and seriously depleted resources?

but there are alternative distributions of land, property, usage.... — Vera Mont

Please give examples of those alternatives.

That's not it. I think you need a different perspective on the problem. — Vera Mont

Okay and where does the different perspective come from? History books? Life experience? Can you be more clear about what you are talking about?

Family isn't 'about' something, any more than life is. Family is part of life, of the organization of social animals. Among modern humans, it can be the stuff of nightmares - or a warm support-structure. I guess in complex civilizations, it's more often nightmarish than in primitive ones because everything is so much more complicated and stressful. But mostly because the men are abused and emotionally crippled by the system, so they turn around and abuse whoever can't fight back. — Vera Mont

This is one of the main reasons I keep harping about Deming's democratic model for industry. In the US, our industry is modeled after England's autocratic industry, and we still use the word "landlord". The history of landlords is very ugly and so the history of the industrialization of England very ugly! Now this is about culture. I think we need to know our history to be sane about our reality.

The US democracy came with a lot of baggage and the first thing that had to be done was spread over a wilderness an establish a civilization. Just a child can not be a grownup from the day of birth, neither can a civilization be fully developed in the beginning. Being totally negative about our history is not helpful. Today we are a lot closer to being able to achieve our human potential than we were two hundred years ago. But now we need to analyze that history and our ideas of democracy and what the best society looks like and then plan how to make that transition. Replacing the autocratic model of industry with Deming's model and returning education to for democracy, might resolve many problems, including having happier and healthier families.

No, I'm describing governance in any form. — Vera Mont

At breakfast this morning the gentleman I sat next to gave me explanations of the different forms of government and they are very different. Socialism is kind of a hybrid between Laize Faire capitalism and communism. A communist country can have a lot of voting but the citizens still have little power because what they vote on is not the important decisions. The communist form of government owns and controls all resources.

In the US the government owns and controls very little. So we have problems that can't be solved. For example, the cost of housing is so high a private party can not afford to build and then sell or rent housing to low-income people at a price the people can afford. Only the government has the resources for building truly affordable housing but our capitalist system prevents that from happening. We have this problem because our reality has changed and people don't like change, so they resist change. No one is going to go west and homestead, or buy cheap land, because it is not available.

In one hundred years we have gone from an empty frontier to cities having no available land from industries and housing, forcing the cities to use the land that does become available for apartments. Gone are the days of building neighborhoods filled with three-bedroom homes with large front and back yards. Maybe one block will become available by tearing down the old buildings, so the multi-story apartment can be built. But it can not be built cheaply enough to be affordable to low-income people. Our reality has changed but not our mindset.

How do you think we should manage our changed reality?

Another change is people are living twice as long and the population of old people is huge and growing! What happens to them when they can no longer care for themselves? Should this be a social concern or strictly a private concern?

About the family order. What do you think family is about? I have a 1941 Family Law book that details who is responsible for whom and what the penalties are for people who do not fulfill their family duty. Back in the day, no one got government help. It just was not available. We got Social Security during the Depression so old people could retire and open up a job for the young. There was no food, medical, or housing assistance. Germany had a national retirement plan, worker's compensation, and a national medical plan long before the US. As I said, these government programs were impossible before we adopted the German model of bureaucracy. In the US the government was too weak and incapable of providing people assistance. What do think family order has to do with such matters?

By the way, I think you are doing an amazing job of managing these arguments for a young person. In another 20 years of arguing you will be awesome.

So what? That doesn't make any difference to their similar bureaucratic support structure. — Vera Mont

Oh, my dear. You made me aware of the possible value of a high school class that is about the different bureaucratic organizations and what makes each governing different. Thank you I need to work on that. Isn't it crazy we commit acts of war on people knowing nothing about how they are organized or if a problem can be resolved in another way besides war? We do commit economic warfare. That began when the Church was struggling to control everyone and what each person thought, and disemboweling or burning those who held different ideas.

Hope to get back to you. got to run.

I broadly agree with the content of your statement above, but the term 'family order' can be problematic in the variations it can manifest.
In my world, I would not allow a single tier of government to have full control over the military or the police. I would have a second, as powerful, elected tier of stakeholder representatives. Citizens, who represented all major worker groups, age and gender based reps also, etc. This citizens house, would have to agree to any war declaration or invasion of another nation, that the government of the day proposed.
The government would have full control over all forces in the case of an outside attack on the nation.
New ways to wield political authority must be found. I would also get rid of party politics.
We must vote for people not political parties. — universeness

Once again we have a lot of agreement. One way a citizen can have a say in local policy is to join a committee. Such committee work gave me more power to affect decisions than anything else I have done, including speaking at public hearings. What we have works pretty well but many people are unaware of all the points of influencing policy.

It takes a lot of dedication if a person is serious about supporting a law of changing the organization of a bureaucratic department. This can involve doing things to attract reporters and make the public aware of the need for change. Joining together with like-minded and having a convention in a large hotel. Going in groups to speak with representatives, writing letters, and bringing in already established organizations. All this takes a lot of time, energy, and money and because people's ego's get in the way, there needs to be a strong leader to get everyone working together instead of against each other. I have found most people never attend public hearings or write letters and really don't know what to do except vote when voting time comes. This is generally not someone with children, nor someone so old the energy just isn't there.

High schools should have a class on government organization and how to participate in government and we should advance public speaking as much we pay attention to foot ball! :rage: Schools budget time and effort for ball games, but not public speaking and civics. Not the classes that would empower the young. And now my dear, I am back to the cultural problem. I hope you see it.

As a 20+ I remember being in a Glasgow pub with my father.
He was not a 'hardman' himself, but he knew a few.
There was a well known Glasgow gangster in the pub, holding court with other gangsters, when I overheard him say 'I'll tell yous what a hardman is, it's just some f***er with f*** all left to lose.'
I remember a flash of Kirk Douglas playing Spartacus, flashed through my mind, saying the line 'a slave does not fear death, death is the only freedom a slave knows about.'
Over time I have thought a lot about that.
What causes humans to fight and kill each other rather than work with each other in common cause?
I know each of you could give me a long list of reasons.
I think this most important of issues has yet to be fully answered.
Is 'hell' really 'other people?'
Is it true that we love and need company but we also need solipsism to be true, but not always.
You are both intelligent people. Can intelligent people make a global human civilisation that works, or is the 'hell is other people,' concept just too strong in humans?
I simply believe that we can do better than we ever have in the past!
I don't really care how we achieve it. I have already offered my own personal top 5 horrors we need to make benign. We have spent too long in tribes, city states, nations, allies and axis, etc, at war, recovering from war and preparing for the next war. We must find ways to do better. We can talk about the past and the reasons why we are where we are now, forever.
Can we not focus on how we think we can make a better world? — universeness

I love what you said and especially Spartacus's quote. As old age overtakes my youth, I am responding from a different perspective as I say, I can understand death as the only freedom.

I love that your question screams at me why I keep writing about the US being what it defended its democracy against. We did not have maintain war time contracts and a large standing army, nor invest in weapons that can do more damage is a few hours than we could have done months of war. As Rome came to depend on its military force leading to its military leaders taking control of Rome, so it is for the Military-Industrial Complex of WWII Germany and the US today. What the US is today, is not what it was before WWII.

Not until Eisenhower and the Korean War did the US become the Military-Industrial Complex we are today and this makes it much more like that we will engage in war than was so before WWII. It took a year to mobilize for the WWI and WWII. Today we can fully be engaged in war within hours and do more damage than we could do in several months. Like Rome it is no longer the people who are in control but the Beast that feeds off us.

I had hoped the Internet and citizens around the world would take this power away from their governments, and with the power of the people they would manifest world peace. I still hold onto this hope although I don't see this happening yet. Democracy leads to peace, not religion, and not a Military-industrial complex. We need to return to family order and end this military order. The people of the world need to unite against the Beasts that feed off of us.

No, I don't recall saying that. I said my own respect and desire for facts does not make me fascist.
Bureaucratic organizations of some kind are unavoidable in dealing with the complex needs and interactions of a large, diverse population, especially in times of rapidly developing technological and economic change. I have no objection to a robust, competent civil service - in fact, I believe they are far more stable than elected government administrations, and can do more - allowed to operate according to their mandate - to keep politicians honest than politicians ever do one another. — Vera Mont

Communism, socialism, and laissez-faire capitalism are eccomic systems, not politic opposites.
The opposite of democracy is autocracy and you are speaking in favor of autocracy. Opposition to autocracy includes keeping elected people honest and focused on the well fair of all, versus an oligarchy- rule by a handful of powerful people who are ruling to feather their own nest.

Autocracy is efficient. Democracy is not!

Humans have had wars throughout their existence; as civilizations grew bigger and more powerful, the wars grew bigger, more deadly and more frequent. They were not caused by bureaucracy or technology; they did not cause either of those things; they have always co-existed within civilization. Wars have been waged with rocks, thrown sticks, fire and long sharp knives, projectile balls and pointy things, things that go bang and things that go thud, things that poison people and sever limb from limb.
Three events changed the attitude the of US conservatives in the wake of WWII: they came out of it the overall winner, the country that scored most points and suffered least loss; they developed the atomic bomb which gave their hawks a sense of invincibility, and the Russian 'communist' state rose up as a major contender for world domination, which threw those same hawks into a state of demented paranoia.

I need to begin by saying I strongly disagree with your belief that there is no difference between the bureaucratic structure of the past and today's Military-Industrial Complex. There is no way the bureaucratic order of the past could maintain the complex governments we have today.

I think we need to distinguish the difference between haphazard wars and a Military Industrial Complex.
Sparta lived for war and this led to the inability to reproduce enough citizens to defend Sparta and Sparta died. We might thrill at learning of Sparta's military achievements, but it is Athens that originated Western civilization, not Sparta. Please give that a moment of thought.

The US was the Athens of the modern world with education modeled after Athens education. Germany was the Sparta of the modern world. Thanks to the Prussians Germany was a military-industrial complex and gave us modern warfare that involves every aspect of a nation, unlike the wars of old. The US adopted this bureaucratic order and the education that goes with it. The US is now the Military-Industrial Complex it defended its democracy against.

There is a difference between haphazard wars and being a Military-Industrial Complex. A very important difference is cultural and thinking military order and control is better than a democracy with liberty and justice for all manifested by the citizens and rule by rule, not authority over the people. The US could throw all its weapons into the oceans and it would still be a Military-Industrial Complex because that is what it is bureaucratically and education for technology is about maintaining this military order.

They're both enormous problems. I don't think they're fascist -- I don't think they any longer have a coherent 'ism' or credo - that started unravelling with Nixon and his unholy alliance with the the South - or any ideology beyond grasping at power by any and all means. They - and their loyal yes-men in the congress and senate absolutely, point-blank renounce facts. They spurn the constitution, debase every agency of legitimate governance, trample on civil rights and education and deny the electorate a means of expression. They will make civil war... Well, not a new one: The American Civil War Part II.

Perhaps if I could explain the difference between past bureaucratic order and the Military-Industial Complex, you agree what we have is fascism.

Many experts agree that fascism is a mass political movement that emphasizes extreme nationalism, militarism, and the supremacy of both the nation and the single, powerful leader over the individual citizen. This model of government stands in contrast to liberal democracies, which support individual rights, competitive elections, and political dissent.
https://world101.cfr.org/historical-context/world-war/what-fascism#:~:text=What%20does%20fascism%20mean%3F,leader%20over%20the%20individual%20citizen.

The model of fascist government comes out of the Prussian military order. A hand of generals establishes the policy and this includes defining everything that needs to be done to achieve this goal and exactly what each person will do to achieve that goal. Now no one needs to think because obeying orders is preferred over independent thinking.

The national heroes that were the foundation of American culture, were independent thinkers. Washington, Franklin, and Lincoln were independent thinkers as were captains of ships. We destroyed our national heroes. We ended education for independent thinking and focused on "group think" because "group think" is best for advancing technology. We ended education for good moral judgment and left moral training to the Chruch, and now have an amoral society that we try to control with laws and authority over the people, who no longer understand what is required for good moral judgment.

I am struggling so hard for the right words. Please understand the bureaucratic order was always supported by public education and the present is nothing like the past. We now have military order, not family order. We once prepared everyone for civic and industrial leadership. Now all are prepared to follow and obey. Trump is our hero because he does not follow and obey. Trump is our Hitler because we have the bureaucratic order and education of our fascist enemy. You seem to favor this order over the democratic order and I think most people agree with you.

Sparta won the war with Athens. The modern Athens won the war with the modern Sparta. Now we are what defended our democracy against and most people believe this is a good thing but now that it is their hands, they think God favors them, and this is not fascism. But it is fascism.

The only worthwhile lesson from all such historical events has already been put into a song.
'WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothin.'
Any culture birthed from or maintained by war or the constant threat of it and preparation for it, will continue to fail. — universeness

I believe in Biblical terms that is the Beast. The Beast consumes everything at the expense of the people. I want to pull what you said forward because it goes with the argument I am having with Vera Mont. The best model for the Beast is fascism. "Dr. Friedrich Naumann has emphasized the fundamental difference between the war of yesterday and the war of to-morrow. "

The war of the future is a problem of economic organization of the most difficult nature and highest technological achievement, such as has never been hitherto demanded from any army.....
We know that our nation possesses in its industries successful organizers, brains accustom to direct great quantities of material and "personnel" - men who create new conditions of life for whole economic
districts without having to appeal to any mystical authority."

We never ended the government of contracts of WWII but have greatly increased them. The political battle we have now is who gets those government contracts and who pays for them. Culturally speaking is our blindness in the US, and immediately, the near worship of Trump and his nationalism! His "make America great again" is not raising the standard of living but increasing private profits. That greatness is in part selling weapons around the world and at home. It is the Beast of the Bible and supported by Christians who are capitalist and in denial of the harm done to our own and the whole world, as long as it means those at the top get richer and more powerful. You know, God's chosen few who do the work of God in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, putting our nation in greater and greater debt and making the US the targeted world enemy.

I don't think wishing for a little more truth in political and social organization makes me fascist. But i wouldn't dream of suppressing your opinion. — Vera Mont

Now that is a subject that is best with an exploration of facts. I thought this technological development was largely in the US but thanks to this forum, I have learned the technological bureaucratic development is worldwide. If we want to understand reality it is well worth the effort to understand what has happened.

The bureaucratic change comes for good reasons and it would not be threatening our liberty and personal power if we worked on our culture for empowering individuals and people having a better understanding of liberty and personal responsibility. Our failure to understand the importance of bureaucratic changes and education for technology leaves us powerless to protect our liberty, as our failure to understand bacteria and viruses left us powerless to prevent and cure disease.
We are dealing with a powerful known.

You say our bureaucratic organization which includes education for the Military Industrial Complex does not make us fascist and you are in favor of facts. So how have wars and technology changed our reality as we entered WWI and existed from WWII? What is different about how we organize ourselves?

Pretty much the same thing happened to Athens as it spread its civilization and changed the education focus to groom the new bureaucrats and public speakers. There was debate of the good and bad of this change. We are not debating the change but are simply denying it. Does the following remind you of Trump? Trump is not the problem, but the mass who follow him are the problem.

Definition of Facism..

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition — merriam-webster

Notice "exalts nation". Australia is just as strong on individuality and personal power as the US ideal but it is about individuals, NOT EXALTING the nation. There is a serious difference. Can you see that? Our richest people are the ones with government contracts and Trump is supportive of this as his followers strongly oppose socialism. Do you disagree?

I'd choose a smart dog. But that won't repair the damage we've done to the world. — Vera Mont

I am not surprised.

My father thought so highly of the book "Emotional Intelligence" that he bought everyone in the family a copy of that book. His ability to be responsible for the metal that took Apollo to the moon, is something we are very proud of. His willingness to take responsibility for his problem with relationships is also something to be proud of.

Nobody knows what anyone else means by "overly." (or fascist) — Vera Mont

:lol: Then ask. Like how manly to put me on the defense instead of asking for more information.
What is happening here is not pleasant. Being put on the defensive turns things negative.

Fascism is a bureaucratic/social order that is very authoritarian and shifts power from the people to the state, totally crushing individual power and liberty. And this goes very well with Christianity. The US fought two world wars to defend its democratic way of life, before adopting Germany's model of bureaucracy and its model of education for technology that goes it. Add to this Evanglics coming to political power as we mobilized against those godless people of communism and assure loyalty to the Nation by putting God in the pledge of allegiance and on all our money. Yeap, this discussion is right on target. Cultural differences are important.

Uniting a nation with a god who favors them has been very effective ever since Rome.

We're drowning in a plastic-infused ocean of feeeeellliiiings. Could use a solid life-preserver of logical reasoning. But that's just my opinion. — Vera Mont

I expected that. So what are you going to do now? Make an effort to expand your consciousness or give up?

I think humanity would be much further ahead if, like the Iroquois, women had always played an important role in our growing human consciousness. I am very excited by the difference empowered women are making and I am not bending to the male standard that I believe is a failure and basic cause of our social and international problems.

The two aspects of thought can coexist, but should never be confused. You can imagine a "better" life - in relation to something known, charted, qualifiable and quantifiable - else "better" has neither meaning nor goals. — Vera Mont

My effort to argue against what you said relies too much on personal thoughts and I am not in a position to be respected for what I think, so I googled for a source that may be respected.

Einstein, 2000):

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution.”

“I believe in intuition and inspiration…At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason.”

“My intuition was not strong enough in the field of mathematics to differentiate clearly the fundamentally important…from the rest of the more or less desirable erudition. Also, my interest in the study of nature was no doubt stronger… In this field I soon learned to sniff out that which might lead to fundamentals and to turn aside…from the multitude of things that clutter up the mind and divert from the essentials.”

“The truly great advances in our understanding of nature originated in a way almost diametrically opposed to induction. The intuitive grasp of the essentials of a large complex of facts leads the scientist to the postulation of a hypothetical basic law, or several such laws. From these laws, he derives his conclusions…which can then be compared to experience. Basic laws (axioms) and conclusions together form what is called a “theory.” Every expert knows that the greatest advances in natural science…originated in this manner, and that their basis has this hypothetical character.”

“All great achievements of science must start from intuitive knowledge, namely, in axioms, from which deductions are then made…Intuition is the necessary condition for the discovery of such axioms.”

“I very rarely think in words at all. A thought comes, and I may try to express it in words afterwards.”

“I was sitting in the patent office in Bern when all of a sudden a thought occurred to me: if a person falls freely, he won’t feel his own weight. I was startled. This simple thought made a deep impression on me. It impelled me toward a theory of gravitation.”

https://christinaleimer.com/intuition-einstein/

I have no idea how well you relate to what Einstein. I just know I can relate to what he said. Especially
“I very rarely think in words at all. A thought comes, and I may try to express it in words afterward.” I love it when I find someone said what I want to say but just can not find the right words for saying it.

Because of my relationships with low-IQ people, I know if I were stranded in the wilderness, I would rather be with one of them than someone with a high IQ because the person who is more like an animal intuitively is better at survival.

Yes. But if it isn't grounded in factual information about the world, it is fantasy. — Vera Mont

My goodness, between the music I am listening to and explaining the importance of needing to valued and having a sense of belonging, I have a vivid awareness of important it is to ground ourselves with our hearts. Nothing is more real to me at this moment than the reality I know we can live is grounded in our hearts. Without this, we entropy and die.

Reality is about so much more than facts and if we can not deal with that, there is a big problem. To me, you are speaking of the result of education for technology and our technological development and the fact that we are on the brink of a third world war. Some much for being grounded in facts. And we are in complete denial of facts! We are destroying nature and our planet. We are like smokers who can not stop even when they know the health risk. There is more to life than facts our technological society may be a big mistake because it is thinking too much and feeling too little. How do you feel about being on the path of global war?

Right now in the news parents are extremely upset about sex in textbooks. Sex is about a whole lot more than facts and education for technology comes with a big problem of insensitivity, and a sense of a big brother over stepping. It is about time we stand up and tell big brother to back off.

Progress allows us to focus on higher order tasks than before. Would you still rather clothes were washed in the local stream in comparison with using a washing machine? Think of how mush time and effort people could assign to improving their knowledge and pushing the current boundaries of what we know, if everyone could take all basic needs for granted. — universeness

I appreciate your argument but if someone is retarded and the best contribution this person can make is to fetch water or wash clothes by hand in the stream, that is the job this person needs to do. Taking this job away with indoor plumbing and machines is hurtful to the person who needs to feel valued by the group. I say this because I have worked so much with these people and believe it or not, I speak with compassion and love. What has gone wrong is largely the fact that we don't need these people and we either ignore them on the streets or put them in foster homes where they are taken care of and we do not give them opportunities to feel needed and important.

I worked in a place that trained severely retarded adults for jobs and it was terribly sad knowing there are no jobs for these people, as they try so hard to make themselves useful and valued people. I have lived with them, and I have worked in foster homes. I have also associated with homeless people. For you and me, time to read books and ponder life is very valuable but that is not so for all people.

I ask you to consider how dehumanizing Industry can be. I am sure that is what you are thinking of when you speak of it as an evil. But now think of those closed out of society struggling to be recognized as needed members of society. Their days have nothing to schedule their lives. One day is just like another and if they are not being driven away, they are invisible. There is no place for them and that means not having an identity of someone who belongs. Many don't even have family. I didn't realize how awful this reality is until I lived in a mobile home and our pipes froze. Then we sincerely needed someone to fetch water and suddenly these guys were needed and they stood 10 feet tall.

So what you say is true but it is not the whole truth.

And as we all do, every day, both as individuals and as groups.

They also conquered foreign lands whose gods had to be accommodated, assimilated, or subsumed in their own pantheon, because direct suppression invariably engenders a stiffer resistance. The RCC didn't care, because it was squandering the human and material resources of independent nations on its religious wars. But ancient civilizations had to budget their available resources. Some foreign gods were also imported through commerce and migration; some of these gained popular support. — Vera Mont

We have agreement but perhaps how we feel about these facts is different? I think what has happened is wonderful. It makes me happy. It might have been better without the wars. I sure don't want wars today but our planet has too many humans right now and we would have suffered from that much earlier if we didn't kill each other. Another good thing about war is it stimulates technological advancement. We did not have the knowledge and technology to feed the masses that need to be fed today. But all in all, the expansion of our consciousness is totally awesome.

I think we are in the Resurrection with archeologists and geologists and related sciences, raising awareness of our past. It is our responsibility today to learn as much as we can, and rethink everything. Hopefully, we can gain knowledge fast enough to save our planet and humanity. Just not the amount of humanity we have today.

How do you feel about it all?

And that - even if it's about a fictional past, an imaginary present, a non-existent reality - turns it into "philosophy"? Plato might go for it. I don't. — Vera Mont

Okay, I think I can work with what you said. I agree with you about the importance of facts, but this should never reduce our ability to fantasize about a better life and how we might achieve it. It is our creativity that separates us from other animals. Life is what we make it, not exactly what a god gives us.

I see being overly concerned with facts as fascist. It makes people crazy, intolerant, and prone to violence. This is a serious cultural problem and it is what the US stood against. We have destroyed the culture that made the US great. Some changes may be good, but the loss of the culture we transmitted through public education is not good. The US is in big trouble right now.

I fully advocate, that we need to provide high quality, free, education for all citizens from cradle to grave.
I think we both agree that YOU should have ZERO concerns at this stage in YOUR life, (or indeed at any stage of life) regarding good quality accommodation, free and fully available for as long as you require it. Free and full access to any medical assistance you ever require and that assistance should be the highest quality available within current technology. Free education in any subject you wish to pursue. Access to opportunity to give you as many options as possible for how you wish to direct your life in accordance with, 'from each according to ability and will, to each according to need.' Finding your own cause and purpose in life should be fully supported by your local, regional and national authorities.
You should also be able to take all other basic needs for granted including, food, drink and personal security. That is the human civilisation/culture I think we CAN build, and will eventually build, on a global scale. — universeness

No, I would not want life if my life is completely useless. Whatever I get should make it possible for me to be a valuable member of society, and if I can no longer be of value, please, pull the plug!

Oh my goodness, please, I do not want all you offer. I think it would be absolutely dreadful to have everything without it being because of my own effort.

But for a purpose in life, the book I am reading now has given me a new purpose in life. The book is titled Preventable and this link should get you to an explanation of it. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/55246090

I would love to see a memorial day for civil service workers. I want that holiday to tell the story of how many civil service workers including nurses and ambulance drivers, and CNAs who worked in nursing homes, died because we did not maintain the supplies that were essential to saving their lives. We were ready for a pandemic because of Ebola and knowing the threat of a pandemic. Obama saw to that. But we did not maintain what was already in place. These people were superheroes because of our shame of letting things get so bad. This includes the health/medical neglect of those living in poverty because they were paid terrible wages and continued to do their essential work jobs even though the condition of poverty increased their risk of dying. If you care you may like the book as much as I do.

It should include those who ran into the burning building the day of 9/11. Let us honor our heros who gave their lives because they deserve that every bit as much as fallen shoulders, and because we need to look at each other and see a potential hero because I believe most of us would be heroes if we were in a situation that required heroes. The number one thing we have to do is love each other and override the destructive Christian notion that we are not worthy without a god saving us.

Oh yes, fantasy, the first step to human progress, resolving problems, creating a better world. If humans stop being creative and stop having fantasies, and innovating, will they have a life worth living?

I think the facts on the ground won't change. So, probably yes. — Vera Mont

Philosophy is about so much more than facts.

I fully believe that the human race can and will create a civilisation that is better than any human civilisation that has ever existed in the past. Civilisations like ancient Greece or USA today will be nothing more than additions to the large list of examples of past attempts that utterly failed and fully deserved to.
The best way for humans to BE is yet to come. On another thread, I listed the top 5 barriers I think we need to terminate completely or reduce to a relatively powerless minimum.
Creating that culture IS INDEED critical imo. We need to make the following benign:
1. Money
2. Capitalism
3. Primal fear.
4. Religion/theism/theosophism
5. Mental aberrations in others, such as narcissism, cult of celebrity, cult of personality, a need to follow others blindly without question. — universeness

Now you give me something I can talk about. Thank you.

If we had always lived in Eden, and grew up without fear and a need to compete for scarce resources perhaps that future you believe is possible would already be here and now. Along with the Enlightenment is the New Age hope. The New Age being a time of high tech and peace and the end of tyranny.

Our developing technology has indeed so changed our consciousness that we can relate to those who made history. How could they have not known slavery was a terrible thing? How could they have abused and exploited laborers as they did? Why didn't they always see things as wrong as cannibalism? What I am arguing is that insistence that war is a major part of our lives and not patting ourselves on the back for how far we have come is a negative and destructive mindset.

We have been undergoing rapid social and economic change and this creates instability and anxiety, and this is expressed in social and economic problems. If we realize how much we have progressed and how rapid change affects the whole of society then we might have better moral judgment and actualize our human potential of improving life on earth by being cooperative.

I think your list of necessary changes has merit but those changes are very problematic. The place to start making those changes is a return to education for good moral judgment and citizenship. About #5 somehow I was strongly indoctrinated to believe being a good citizen means lifelong learning and independent thinking. We had education for independent thinking which is vital to a democracy, and in 1958 we replaced that education with education for groupthink and the rapid advancement of technology. There are huge social, economic, and political ramifications of this change.

Now because advanced technology gives us the potential ability to manifest Eden, we needed that focus on education for technology, but because we lacked understanding of the importance of culture and what education has to do with culture, what was good has become bad, and we need to correct the problem with education.

They do say travel broadens the mind. Most Scots I know would be glad to know an altruist such as yourself.

All the military empires of those times with their colourfully dressed toy looking soldiers, whose leaders brought them in army formations, to fight and be slaughtered in muddy fields, all seemed to me to be small variations on a seriously 'f***** up' theme.

'Honour and Glory,' we start the fight at an agreed time and not a second before!
We die and kill to the background music of pipe and drum.
Open with the cannons, flank them! flank them! send in the cavalry with infantry support, ....... and we all fall down! The Prussians, The Russians, The French, The British, The Austrians, The Hungarians, etc etc. Beautiful war to see which gangland culture wins and which bunch of nefarious elite f***wits get to rule Europe!!!!
The only worthwhile lesson from all such historical events has already been put into a song.
'WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothin.'
Any culture birthed from or maintained by war or the constant threat of it and preparation for it, will continue to fail. — universeness

That is a different point of view from my understanding of what a nation is about. Like the US had some small wars, but they did not involve most of us until the world wars. We strongly stood against the taxes to maintain a large army or navy, until the military technology of WWII. Our education had nothing to do with wars but was about a culture and democratic way of life and fulfilling enlightenment dreams for a better world.

I don't know if it is me but today both of you both seem horribly depressing and I have pulled up a positive take on the opportunity to say what is right about the founding of the US and democracy for the last time. If this discussion does not improve, it might be time to end it.

I am having a problem thinking of anything positive to say. Maybe on another day, I will have a more positive outlook. Today the closest I come to something positive to say is providing a better definition of culture.

the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group. — Oxford Dictionary

It's not that we don't get the concept so much as that we disagree on the examples. — Vera Mont

Wonderful and why did we attempt to have a democracy? What makes it different from the kingdoms of the Bible? What are the characteristics of democracy? What is the best way to prepare our young for citizenship? The title of this thread is Culture is Critical. What does that have to do with democracy, liberty, and justice?

Except for all the gods Socrates is supposed to have offended. — Vera Mont

It used to take at least a hundred years for something like the discovery of bacteria to become common knowledge. The miracle of the Athenians is their transition from superstition to science and a focus on proofs. That is why they got our attention and became a model for US education. They were thought to be a race of geniuses. The transition did not happen overnight, but it happen.

In the play, The Clouds by Aristophanes, the character named Socrates argues in favor of science.

It would take a week to track down all the pieces of such a quilt.[/quore] It would take more than time because I have not said what you think I said. When I speak of democracy I do not mean the US, except when speaking of something about democracy that the US did get right. And for sure I am horrified by US capitalism and we need to replace the autocratic model of Industry with the Democratic model. It would help if you asked questions instead of assuming what I mean.
— Vera Mont

Democracy is a way of life that is based on Greek and Roman classics.
— Athena

Yes, you've said, on several occasions.

I keep waiting for discussions to be about democracy as a way of life, and they never do. It is like no one gets the concept. The discussion I would like to have can not move forward when what I say is just words without meaning.

And a code of laws based on the biblical commandments meshed together with English common law, on the foundation of a fatally flawed constitution and electoral procedure. — Vera Mont

Now that could become a discussion about our way of life. I really wish we would get Christianity out of our culture. And I much prefer the Greeks to Rome. The US aspires to be like Rome more than it aspires to be like Athens. This is about culture, not politics. Where does our conscientiousness come from? As powerful as Rome with Christianity was, it still fell.

What are the fatal flaws of the US Constitution?

Tocqueville saw some problems and warned the US would become a despot in his 1830 book "Democracy in America". I am open to examining the flaws.

I'm not recommending a book. Your proposed book is fine - so long as it has lots of company from different perspectives. I'm recommending - warning - an adjustment of mind-set. All the times you've taken for granted that Americans were/are "the good guys" in a conflict; :gasp: all the times you've advocated, directly or indirectly, for American-style capitalism; :gasp: all the the usual accepted fictions... it's not deliberate; it's habitual. People need to develop a new habit: questioning the old verities. — Vera Mont

Would you please copy and paste what I said that lead you to think what you think?

Democracy is a way of life that is based on Greek and Roman classics. Basic to that way of life is secular thinking. The God of Abraham religions are not compactable with democracy because in a democracy there is no God with favorite people. Instead of fear of learning that is tied to fear of Satan and displeasing a God, in a democracy life long learning is an essential part of participating in politics and being a good citizen. There are fundamental differences separating church and state!

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." (General Report of the Seminar on "What is Democracy?" Congress on Education for Democracy, August 1939)" From the 1941 "Democracy Series" of books for the grade schools.

I can't see that at all. Perhaps I would have fought with them/for them against the Romans, but that's about it.
As a Scot, I see little to admire regarding the Saxons or/and the Angles, that hailed from that place and along with the Norman French, eventually formed England. Prussia was quite an ugly civilisation as was WWI and WW2 Germany. Almost as ugly a grouping as the Spartans imo. — universeness

Oh my God, I love what you said. Now if I win the lottery I will have to travel to your part of the world and stay there long enough to absorb history from your point of view. But at the moment I only know my point of view gleaned from books, and we have an agreement about Prussia. Charles Sarolea's book written just before the first world war "The Anglo-German Problem" says the Prussians are very unpleasant people. However, The Prussians who were like the Spartans for the same reason the Spantans were unpleasant, are not the whole of Germany. Spartans and Prussians were as they were for geological reasons. Neither had enough good farmland.

But the rest of Germany had the geology that makes life in the US good. Mild climates and plenty of good farmland. These people are artistic, congenial, and good neighbors and it really worried Sarolea that they left government up to the Prussians who were not nice people. And love, it is what I know of these people's differences that presses me to write about the importance of culture. Sarolea said the Prussians did not have a culture but were as an army always ready for war. It is the Prussian military order that has made the US what it defended its democracy against. The US adopted the Prussian model for bureaucracy and the German model of education. With our institutions model after Germany's institutions is it any wonder Trump has enjoyed the popularity of Hitler? But now I am pissing into the wind because if there are any US citizens who see what I see, I have not come across them. We are all like the Germans who let Prussia have control.

This thread being about culture is good for speaking of the Scotts who made a huge intellectual contribution to the US and the formation of its rebellion against the English. They especially influenced Jefferson during his school years and made Jefferson intensely focused on the importance of universal education if we were to have a strong and united Republic. Our liberty was dependent on that education and following WWII, we totally replaced that education with the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purposes. Now we struggle to control citizens with law and law enforcement and some states have gone as far as rewarding citizens who report on their neighbors! And we are clueless about what has gone so wrong.

I didn't say anything about how much you, personally, know about what aspect of history. I'm merely warning that, regardless what else is taught in their schools, as long as Americans lull themselves with mythical versions of their story as a nation, their national identity and character; as long as they keep telling those stories to their children, and do not correct the inaccuracies, fallacies, misconceptions and outright fictions in their own understanding of their own history; as long as they refuse to come to terms over what's dysfunctional in their social system and why, nothing in their perilous present situation will improve and there are strong indications that it will deteriorate, and at an accelerating pace.
(and this applies equally to other nations that are not under consideration here) — Vera Mont

Let's see I think I made a derogatory comment about HIS STORY and referred to a few problems in our past that continue to plague the US and absolutely what you said is correct. I just think it is important to begin the history of democracy with Athens and Sparta.

I have a lot of old textbooks because I want to see the past of our education, and some history books are soo boring it is cruel and inhuman punishment to make children read them. Only one of these old history books presents history with a more humanities approach. But boy, is that one inaccurate by today's standards however, it at least it begins with a mention of ancient times, and that is where a history book for democracy must begin.

That is, we can national history books but that is not exactly what I think we need. We need to learn of the history of democracy and how the understanding of it changed. Every, every important to me, is a more scientific understanding of creation, and this is compatible with logos and the idea that land animals evolved from fish. I want a book that punishes for understanding the importance of morals and the Greeks understood morals. Moral is to know the Law (universal law/ logos) and good manners. This needs to be developed into what good reasoning has to do with being a democracy.

The history book you recommend has merit. But my way could result in better understanding without all the pushback that is happening now with history that increases awareness of our wrongs. Our public broadcasting station is doing a good job of increasing awareness of our wrongs. That is a history book for democracy.