Going on this information

Πετροκότσυφας
973 — Πετροκότσυφας

I found this fascinating account of Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam books that were covered in jewels and destroyed in disasters.
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20180111-the-rubaiyat-historys-most-luxurious-book-of-poetry
That comes to this possible author of the book....
FitzGerald’s rendition of the Rubáiyát

Okay, and how did this change happen? Our local newspaper was privately owned until just recently. It is called the Register Gaurd because we had an understanding of what freedom of speech and being well informed has to do with defending our democracy. Do you remember the old journalist who believed they were giving our nation a great service by informing citizens and doing investigative reporting? That was an important cultural difference, and that begins with education teaching the principles of democracy and preparing every single citizen to defend that democracy.

People keep defending education for technology and they are missing the point! I love technology and I think we are on the verge of huge improvements because of technology. Computers are better at making some decisions that affect our lives because they can hold vastly more information than a human, and they are unbiased. We absolutely should know how every inch of land in our cities is used, and have accurate measurements of every resource and the management of things like trash and sewage, with accurate measures of our populations and room for growth. We are making decisions based on limited personal experience and personal interest, and not facts, and we seem to be clueless about our thinking errors! :scream: Technology can mean better decision making than ever before possible, along with a whole lot of other benefits. I was born crippled and medical technology resolved that problem and gave me a normal life. I love technology! :love:

There is no problem with education for technology, except it stopped transmitting the culture we need to defend our democracy. When we stopped transmitting our culture we unleashed autocracy. We have autocratic industry and the majority don't even know the democratic model. If we had education for democracy and democratic industry, we would resolve most of our problems.

What is happening in the minds of those who think our president should be as the Lion King instead of every single citizen being prepared for democracy? Our military can not defend our democracy as education can.

Okay, I am dying to know how you came to that notion of democracy and the mention of what science and (rule by reason) have to do with democracy and liberty. What thinking are you building upon? Where did that thinking originate?

You said there is more to democracy and I am very stressed about not everyone understanding what you said. Government is only part of democracy.

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." (General Report of the Seminar on "What is Democracy?" Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.)

That is quoted from the Democracy Series of textbooks used for grade school classes when the US began mobilizing for war against Germany. This mobilization for war against Germany began long before declaring war on Germany and I suppose we can call it a covert action, because, heavens we would not use public education and children to mobilize our nation for war would we? Yes, we would.
We tried to prevent the Civil War with education, but the South caught on to the North using education to change Southern values and it began publishing its own textbooks, promoting southern values. And we used public education to mobilize for both the first and second world war, when it took us a good year to mobilize for wars and these wars depended on patriotic citizens to support the wars. Not like today and the ability to engage in war in a few hours notice and maintain a war without disrupting our morning cup of coffee. Today, our wars don't noticeably affect our lives so we can ignore how our military is used and why and that left the Military Industrial Complex free to prepare our young as products to serve the Military Industrial Complex and ignorant of democracy.

We stopped transmitting our culture and educating for democracy in 1958. Now everyone seems to think democracy is about politics rather than a way of life. And we think morals is about religion, rather than living sanely and having liberty and justice.

One way we might protect our democracy is to strictly limit paid political advertising and put more pressure on journalist and media in general to do their job of defending our democracy by keeping us well informed. If we knew more about the development of information gathering and how it is used, and knew more about the development if political advertising and the governments relationship with research and the media, and knew more about what industry and foriegn powers have to do with our campaign funding, perhaps we could reform politics in the US.

Some countries forbid or limit paid political advertizements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_advertising

"Oh yeah, is that what you do?"

Of course, I use the power of my mind and I facilitate workshops that include understanding the power of our minds. It is a sad person, and possibly a sickly person, who does not understand the power of his/her mind. It is a mistaken person who believes it is a supernatural power and not one's own mind making a difference.

Yipes I am not understanding your last sentence

"There isn't a lot like scientific details, as there isn't in an account of history, a baking recipe, some directions, literary theories, or pretty much all philosophical theories as well."

I find history very useful. We can learn where concepts originated, and the circumstances that lead to that awareness and then how that concept traveled and was changed as it passed through the different regions/cultures.

What is really exciting about this moment in time is the flood of information we now have. I have been seeking information for many years and only recently have we had access to information that is not limited by our own culture and is inclusive of all people.

I think we are in the resurrection, with archeologist and geologist bring the past into the present, and that is our duty is to learn as much as possible and adjust our lives with this greater knowledge. If we are God's consciousness it is up to us to manifest it. No other animal is capable of this and only by working together and with all of history can we achieve this marvel.

"Good observation. There are greater differences between conservative Catholics and liberal Catholics than there are between the average Catholic and the average Lutheran. Conservative Baptists are vigourously opposed to ritual, liturgical seasons, and "catholic" in any form, and most other churches aren't much better than heathens."

I love the paganism I have found in some churches. But my oh my, preachers do not take well to a compliment on the paganess of their services. :lol:

I like a qabala explanation for rituals as something we do to benefit ourselves. God doesn't love us more if we brush our teeth, but brushing our teeth has benefits, and so it is with all rituals. If we create in our minds a benevolent Mother and Father or other spiritual power we will experience the benevolence.

"The beads of a rosary count the prayers as they are recited out loud or in the mind. Relying on the rosary beads to keep track of how many times you've said a particular prayer allows you to clear your mind and meditate on your prayer more effectively.

Prayer beads are used by members of various religious traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism and the Bahá'í Faith to mark the repetitions of prayers, chants or devotions, such as the rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Catholicism, and dhikr (remembrance of God) in Islam.
Prayer beads - Wikipedia — wikipedia

Ah, I didn't see a lot of science in those religious sentiments. It appears to be a belief system that is not compatible with democracy and all the progress we have made since the revival of pagan explanations based on a more scientific point of view. You know, the notion that it isn't the gods that cause things to happen, but it is the way nature works and we can improve things as we better understand them.

I have no idea what the holy ghost is supposed to be? Can you please explain that? Dumbing it down so maybe a person with a scientific point of view might comprehend what this is and how it works. The words you used seem to indicate it is a god of some kind. A god that is separate from Jesus and therefore giving us two gods, and then we must wonder is the Father in heaven a third god, or are the Father and Son the same and one thing with the holy ghost? Then speaking against Jesus or the holy ghost would be the same thing, right? And then, is the holy ghost is the same as the Father and Son or something different? How does doubting the existence of the holy ghost have an effect on us?

Doubting the power of germs we do not see and ignoring the need to wash our hands has an effect we can understand now that we know something of science. How do things work with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

The reason for having freedom of speech is democracy is rule by reason. This is sometimes mistaken as rule by popular vote, and this mistaken idea follows not understanding what science has to do with our liberty and democracy. However, when we understand democracy is rule by reason, we understand we are voting for truth and what will get good results, not exactly a popular person, or our favorite team, and the thought required for good judgment is understood differently.

Therefore, it is important to reason with religious people with the goal of achieving rule by reason and having a consensus on the best reasoning. It is the idea of democracy that this works better than excluding people and eliminating them from the discussion.

"Democracy is rule by popularity".

That is a really poor understanding of democracy and it is not worth defending people who believe that.

Oh yes, those European countries are Christian. :lol: And they all believed God was on their side when they fought wars against each other. Why do people make an issue of wars Christians have fought with Muslims? Christians have a history if killing Muslims and each other. Religion is good for war and war is good for religion. Democracy is what brought an end to this insanity, of Christians killing each other. It never was Christianity that brought us peace, but democracy. We would still be killing each other in the name of God if it were not for democracy.

It is much harder to get people to agree to a war when it means their lives are on the line and they are going to war for something other their God. Excuse me, would you please give us the money to invade Iraq because it is strategic to our control of oil and our economy depends on it. I don't think that would work so well. But it works if they are not Christians like us. Then our President is doing the will of God to invade and destroy the country with no plan for protecting woman and children and the antiquities, just a plan for protecting the oil. What do you want to say about the wars we have with Muslims?

"I'm just saying, democracy is evolving and it's even affecting our instinctive choices. The more intelligence we apply to our interactions the more we realise, even instinctively, that two heads are better than one. Popularity can include intelligence and in more ways than one it is continually proving so."

May I ask everyone who cares about this subject to attend a local city or county public hearing and report back if the meeting was democratic or autocratic? Were people able to have interactive discussions until there was a consensus of the best reasoning, or were people limited to 3 minutes to address complex issues, and then silenced? Were people engaging each other or the authority at the front of the room? Was there a consensus on the best reasoning or did those in the seats of power make the ruling?

Is your job under democratic or autocratic management? Do you have ongoing training and the expectation of raising in your place of employment, or is there a distinct division of those who make the decisions and those who follow orders? How do you think the employees of Ford and GMC would vote to the close the factories where they work? Would the citizens of those communities vote to get rid of the factories? Is autocracy working for us and the economies of our cities and nation? We had no concept of the democratic model of industry until the Great Depression when Deming tried to convince Industrialist in the US to use the democratic model. Of course, that was rejected. The decision was never put on our ballots.

Democracy is fully dependent on the education of citizens. It is dependent on being taught how to think, notwhat to think. Preparing our young to be products for industry, is not education for citizenship. Vocational training was introduced in 1917 when we mobilized for the first world war, and it was essential to our ability to win world wars because a high tech military needs people who understand the technology and how to use it. This is completely different from opposing armies marching into each other and battling it out with very little technology and 100% dependent on patriotic notions that make people kill each other. We don't need these guys any more nor their permission to go to war. We need their tax dollars so we can buy a lot of technology and use that technology to destroy the enemy. That military reality gave us the 1958 National Defense Education Act, and who would know, democracy is about rule by reason, and therefore education is essential to democracy?

Public education was about realizing the dream of the Age of Enlightenment and also resolving the problem of the immigration time bomb that concerns you. Back in the day, violence, social and economic problems were threatening our democracy, and education had nothing to do with vocational training. Education was all about preparing the young for liberty and justice and a democratic social organization.

At the 1917 National Education Association Conference, Sara H. Fahey, teacher of English, Seward Park School, New York City, explained we did not leave education for citizenship up to parents immigrating from countries that did not understand our institutions and reasoning behind our liberty and justice. We educated the children, trusting their parents would learn from them.

I am a great grandmother now and it is not immigrants who threaten me and our democracy, but the masses educated for a technological society with unknown values. It is education for the Military Industrial Complex, put in place during the Eisenhower administration, that is destroying our democracy. We adopted this education and the bureaucratic order of our world war enemy and we are no longer the democracy we defended in two world wars. We are the Military Industrial Complex we defended our democracy against. Hitler and Bush called this the New World Order. Eisenhower's term, Military Industrial Complex, is a more definitive label for this organization of humanity.

Democracy is not authority over the people. Unfortunately, the US modeled its industry after England's autocracy and Christianity has been the dominating religion. These autocratic institutions, the church, industry, and the military have controlled education. Education is like a like a genii in a bottle. The defined purpose is the wish and the students are the genii, Since 1958 we have prepared the young for a technological society with unknown values, and none have been prepared for democracy. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended. It has been left undefended for over 50 years, and those who remember our nation when we defended our democracy in the classroom are dead or at the end of their lives. There should be absolutely no need to point out democracy is rule by reason, not rule of authority over the people.

Today, there are no teachers trained to defend democracy in the classroom. Some understand the importance of logic to liberty and justice and some understand the importance of freedom of speech, but without the whole understanding of democracy as rule by reason, we are not manifesting the democracy that was the dream of the Age of Enlightenment. Liberal education is for free people. Education for technology is for slaves. We need a revolution in thinking to get our democracy back on track.

I love the way you used history and mythology to make your point! :love: I have given a great-grandson the gift the history by reading history to him as night time stories.

I much prefer to do things with the children than give them toys. Last year the main gift was a year pass to the science museum and we went several times throughout the year.

I really do not like gifts because I don't want to hurt others by getting rid of the gift and my home is really cluttered with gifts. But then my purpose in life is doing what makes others feel good, and as a grandson would say, that is selfish, because no matter what, I am doing what feels good to me.

I never meant to say anyone is obligated to keep a gift. But to increase the awareness of the importance of the importance of some a gifts, but not all gifts. Some gifts are carefully chosen to benefit the receiver. What Bitter Crank may call a trap gift because the good of the gift actually depends on the receiver reading the book or using it. Then the gift represents a life wish for someone and has more meaning than the receiver may realize.

At the homeless shelter, the number one rule is to keep your distance. The second rule is to attempt to defuse the problem. Hopefully, this begins before someone physically attacks someone.

My granddaughter disarms males with knives by being sweet. I am concerned that her self-defense training is horribly inadequate. Proper self-defense training means helping an attacker to the floor rather than striking the attacker or possibly putting someone into a hold and calling for help. She does not have that training.

How men and women handle an attack will be different because people respond to men and women differently and the average woman is not as strong as a man. Having a good relationship helps. Having recognized authority and the ability to put someone out in the cold and prevent them returning is helpful.
We are dealing with some pretty serious mental cases because of drugs or schizophrenia and we are responsible for protecting everyone. It is kind of like dealing with children. We don't start swinging on people as children would do, but attempt to calm them down or get them out of the shelter.

Is it wrong to spend a lot on a gift because the gift giver wants the receiver to benefit from the gift? Why spend all that money if the receiver is not going to benefit from the gift? What is the point of gift giving?

It is not a matter of the gift giver being loved. It is a matter of the person who receives the gift getting the benefit of the gift or not. If the receiver is not getting the benefit of the gift, then it was a waste of money to buy the gift.

This morning I am in hell. I have been working at a temporary shelter for homeless people. We have organized churches to open their doors on freezing nights. People are fed a dinner and breakfast and sleep on mats with one blanket. What I see when I volunteer to help troubles me greatly. I see people trapped in their own hells. Sometimes they are trapped in hell because they have a mental disorder and sometimes it is because they are doing a drug. Some of these people have cancer and some are in wheelchairs. Some choose to be on the streets and some do not.

In the early days of the United States many different religious groups believed it possible to create heaven on earth, and now we leave people on the streets even when they are dying or mentally too confused to care for themselves. How do we live with this reality? How could a hell be worse?

I very much like the notion that it is our duty to develop our talents. That works well with the idealism of democracy, as a social, economic and political organization that enables the most people to make their best contribution.

The democratic model for industry is about developing the talent and skills of each employee with ongoing education and opportunity to contribute to the company.

I like to think, the gifts I give are about helping a child develop. I want more for my money than the child having 10 minutes of fun with a new toy, that is trash the next week.

I do not understand? You seem to be saying my thinking is, but I think it may be your thinking that is wrong. When someone gives you a gift what is important about that gift? Is just a thing or something more?

The Egyptians had a trinity of the soul not a trinity of god. One part of our soul dies with our body and another is judged and may or may not go on to the good life and the third always returns to the source. I am afraid I didn't say that well but metaphysically what is the nature of spirit? Is it internal to us or external to us as the trinity of God is external to us?

I think Christianity is very paradoxical as it struggles with materialism (believing everything has matter) and spirituality (not a material manifestation).

I have a Christian friend and she used to drive me and her family crazy. She seems to realize now that her behavior of trying to save us was a relationship problem with people she really cares about. However, we live in Oregon and not the Bible Belt. Also, she got, while she was praying for people, I take action to help them and I think she realized taking action works better than praying? Like really on what grounds would a god condemn me and her family to hell? For Christianity to work, a person has to believe those who are not Christians are bad people undeserving of heaven. But what if they are good people? How do they explain being a good person but not a saved person, if being good depends on being saved?

The belief system does not work for democracy, because the kind of person we are depends on how we were raised, the people who influence us and education. People who don't understand that are okay with education for technology that prepares the young to serve industry, instead of preparing them for freedom. Liberal education is for free people, and education for technology is not. Satan didn't come to earth, we changed education, and what we have now is the social, economic and political ramification of that change.

Science tells us, people with bad hearts who feel loved live longer than people with bad hearts who don't feel valued and I don't think that consideration is an overreaction. It is science. There is a real connection between our emotions and our health. And about those divorces, today it is women who are the most likely to file for divorces and they are divorcing men who think nothing is wrong with the marriage.

I think it is important to respect another person's point of view, don't you? However, I also know the urge to correct people who we think are wrong. :nerd:

If a moral is a matter of cause and effect, we can know the effect of not appreciating what we are given or at least assuring the gift giver that we appreciate his/her effort, will have a bad result, unless the other person is equally as careless. :lol: You may get a book you don't want because the someone gave it to the gift giver and s/he didn't want it either so it was passed on to you. You may want to know something about how much the gift giver cares and perhaps even what that person cares about?

If the gift giver cares a lot about you, being careless about how the giver feels, will surely have a bad result. You may not be aware of the negative effect but there will be a negative effect. Sometimes the result is a divorce after many years of being careless about someone else's feelings, or it can lead to heart attack and death of an elderly person. Our sense of feeling loved and valued is that important.

On the other hand, appreciating what we are given and the giver can have many benefits. That person will thrive and do well and want to reciprocate.

It is not just about things. It is about feelings and relationships and even our health.

Okay for the sake of argument I will take the opposing side and say using the gift should be a high priority. Sure it can be a pain in the neck to do something just to please someone else, but it is good for the relationship and it may be good for you too.

I have zero desire to buy a 7 year old great grandson a gift. Last year I spent a lot of money on his gift that I gave him because he is artistically talented and his mother said he would like the gift. He rejected it and I went through a lot of trouble and more money to return that gift and get him another one, and they got rid of that one too. This year I am giving the mothers money and they can do with it what they want, but I am not buying gifts for those who do not appreciate them, I am not catering to a child's bad judgment by buying some stupid toy just because it is popular this year.

It really hurts when our gifts and all the thought and heartfelt feelings that goes into selecting a gift, are not appreciated, so my home is cluttered with children's art work and gifts given to me, not because this is what I want, but it makes others feel good when we value what they do. And maybe the gift is more valuable than you realize. Calling the heartfelt intention a trap is a negative way of thinking about someone's'e concern for you. I didn't give the child something to help him develop his art talent because that thing had value. The value of that thing, was what he could make of it, and what he could make of his life if he developed that talent. I don't blame the child for not knowing this, but it is really sad his mother doesn't know that either. It hurts a lot because I am afraid the child will not have the good life he could have. It isn't just about things you know?

I think the advice that it is okay not to behave as though we appreciate what we are given is poor advice. How do you feel when you make a special effort to please someone by doing what you think will please or will benefit them, and your effort is not appreciated? However, we can say ahead of time, don't give me any socks, books, etc. this year because I have all I can handle. We can tell people what we really want. The year I said I wanted socks, I got enough socks to last a long time. :lol: But I didn't get things I don't want. :grin:

That is good judgment of what?

At age 72 I am amazed by how much my judgment has changed and it is being generous to not set the voting age at 50 years of age. The development of our minds does not stop at age 25. :lol: I am now thinking of Plato and the notion that only a handful of people have good enough judgment to trust them with governing decisions.

Ten-year-olds have better judgment than 14-year-olds and this changes around age 25, and by 70 there is a much greater change. And it is not as simple as either having good judgment or not having good judgment. Getting the best buy on a cell phone is different from deciding who should be our president or what social benefits we should allow children and older Americans.

The teenager is more likely to violate the rules than a ten-year-old. And it becomes much easier to enjoy the company of a man when his hormones are not raging. And speaking of hormones! A woman can use PMS as a defense argument. I have heard professors make complete fools of themselves, such as the middle-aged psychology professor who dumped his old wife for a young hot one, and told the class women who go out night want to be raped. This poor dude had sex on the brain because of the difference his young wife made, and although his subject was psychology, he was clueless about why his young wife was more stimulating to him than his old one. So much of our judgment is influenced by hormones and when we are unaware of this, our judgment can be really bad. Talking about one's private in front of a class is not a good choice, but as Gibran said, we speak when we are not at peace with our thoughts.

That is not the only reason for bad judgment. Where a person lives makes a big difference. People in cosmopolitan cities tend to have a different understanding of life than people in rural areas. The kind of people we hang out with and their ages, effects our judgment.

And this man is the expert on why we have bad judgment...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjVQJdIrDJ0

For a long time in Christianity, it was assumed only a handful of people were the chosen people who would experience heaven. Like the Egyptians may have thought only the pharaoh and those directly associated with him would experience a good afterlife. But as Eygpt gained wealth, more and more expected to enjoy a good afterlife. Same with Christians. The fuller their bellies got and the more secure they became, the wider the gates to heaven got until heaven could include all deserving souls.

Isis was the bread and water long before Jesus was the bread and wine. The Egyptian test for getting into the good afterlife was measuring a person's heart and if the heart was heavier than a feather, indicating a person lived a bad life, this person was not allowed into the good afterlife.

Well, I think I agree with what you said, up to- us having a notion of what a leader can do, and arguing that point would make this a political thread far from a metaphysical one. But in keeping with the subject of hell, I can say, in a short 200 years the US has swung for believing we are creating heaven on earth to believing we are in the last days. Obviously, something has gone very wrong and I think the problem began with education for a technological society with unknown values. Now we no longer understand what is necessary to have heaven on earth and we have hell on earth. That hell is going to get much worse if we do not take immediate and drastic steps to change that. Believing the problem is Satan and not ourselves is a serious problem! Believing our reality is caused by a God or a Satan, instead of our own decisions is a huge mistake but we allowed the wrong people to take control of education when the 1958 National Defense Education Act was passed, and we stopped transmitting our culture and left moral training to the church.

Perhaps I should check, why are we talking about hell? Is this supposed to be a metaphysical discussion or about reality that is materially manifested?

I have a good and mature Christian friend who thinks Trump is a good father to our country. The Evangelist Christians have a very different opinion of Trump than you do. Why is their judgment so different from yours?

We do understand developing good judgment is a matter of education and maturity, right? We also understand people with education and maturity can have very bad judgment, right? Why?

When I speak of education I want to stress education for technology does not lead to good judgment as a liberal education is about having good moral judgment. Having a good understanding of democracy is not as simple as breathing the air in the US. A lot of people like Trump. Why?

How do you support the opinion that Trump is not our Hitler? I am saying because of the change in education he is our Hitler. It is all about how we learn to think and what we believe.

? :chin: What part of your post is in agreement with science?

"I dont think a brain needs to be fully developed in order for a person to have good judgement. Under 25 isnt the same for everyone, so doesnt it make sense to judge on an individual basis through some sort of Basic test?"

Given the science, doesn't it make more sense to accept the brain is not fully developed and develop a legal system that takes that into consideration? Denial of scientific evidence leads to serious problems, and I sure as blazes would not be giving young people credit cards simply because they are college students,

Do you think science has value? What are the grounds for your disagreement with the science? This is a really hard debate to have because I remember how sure of myself I was when I was young, so I am aware of the young person's point of view and how real that seems. Then around 26 I realized how much my thinking had changed. At that time, age 18 gave me adult status, so when I realized how much my thinking had changed, my friend and I shared our thoughts about realizing at age 18 we were not fully mature. Full maturity and good judgment just does not happen at age 18 and I am wondering how you could be much older and not realize that?

People who marry young can get into big trouble when the wife passes age 25, because then she needs to claim herself and her right to make decisions, and she is no longer the passive, adoring wife he married. If they do not have good problem resolving skills they end up separating.

Recently we have learned a lot about thinking and we seriously need to be aware of why our judgment can be absolutely terrible at any age. Only when we are aware can we avoid the pitfalls. Our brains are far more limited and much easy to trick than we want to believe. Our great intelligence is dependent on working together.

I am very sure Trump is the result of the 1958 National Defense Education Act that is also responsible for our reactionary politics in general and Congress being so stuck in power plays it is in as much trouble as the governing powers of Germany were before Hitler took charge. This is the result of replacing liberal education with the German model of education for technology, and that is the result of the Military Industrial Complex having the power to direct what happens and take over control of education with the goal of having the strongest, highest tech military on earth and we come to this from the second war world against Germany who was better prepared for a high tech war than anyone else.

Perhaps it was the will of God that got Einstien out of Germany and into the US and several of his colleges who helped us be the first to have the atom bomb and land on the moon. This was a wake-up call and it changed education in the US. But now we have the problems Germany had, including the thugs who think Trump is their leader. We always had thugs, but they didn't normally think our president was their leader and approving of their behavior.

Military service would necessitate a person be voting age. The voting age was lowered because of the protest of the Vietnam war. It was argued it is wrong to send our youth into war before they are old enough to vote, so the voting was lowered. That goes against the science that our brains are not fully matured until age 25 and the judgment of youth is really awful. Something our criminal justice system should take into consideration and once did. The age for military service takes advantage of the youthful mind, before a person has developed good judgment. This does not matter in the military where the youth is under the control of authority 24/7 and during this historical time of poor judgment, we are attempting to recreate authority of us, where you can peirce and tatoo your body and dye your blue, but best obey and rely on the legitimate authority that is external and above us.

Oh you are old enough to be amazed by what happens to our thinking in our later years. Isn't it awesome! I am sure the age of Enlightenment was in part the result of an increasing number of people living into old age when there is a profound change in our thinking. There must be many people who have reached this age to stimulate each others thinking. Nothing of much good is going to happen when we are left alone without adequate stimunlation of our thinking. Thinkers need each other and this is a whole lot different from arguing with a young person who knows it all but does not understand bigger meanings and not the possibility of enlightened thinking. That moment when it is like a light goes off in our head and we are surprised we never realized that truth before.

In the 1970's we announced a national youth crisis and I am quite sure that was the result of the transition from liberal education to education for technology. Liberal education cares about completely different truths than education for technology and this transmission had to destroy past values. In school children not to respect their elders but to know their parents were old fashioned and outdated. And people today are sure education for technology is far better than liberal education.

So now we have youth who think they should have the same freedom of decision making as an adult, and think they are smarter than the adults, and they don't check the science before making their argument. This is really paradoxical, so far, education for technology has not prepared the young for life, nor for scientific thinking! Maybe education is improving but we have gone through several decades of destroying our culture and attempting to manifest a technological society with unknown values.

I appreciate your approval of investigating religious truth. I have loved the investigation since I was 8 years old, that age when our brains mature enough to demand we make such judgments. I asked a Sunday school teacher why Protestants and Catholics were different and her answer was not satisfactory. I decided none had God's truth, because if they did they would have an agreement. That set me a quest for God's truth and for me, that meant investigating all beliefs. My family encouraged this and because it is such a pleasure to learn I am very thankful I had a family that encouraged it.

At the moment I am listening to college lectures about western civilization and do you know a distinct divide between Egypt and Mesopotamia was the difference in the environment? In Egypt, the Nile floods regularly, with very little difference from year to year and the Egyptians who were obsessed with order, thought that the Pharoah was a god with the power to keep things in order.

In Mesopotamia, the land between two rivers, flooding was much more unpredictable and difficult to control. Here the head person was a human who had the favor of the gods. If bad things happened, it was assumed this person no longer had the favor of the gods and they got rid of him.

Now ponder the fight over if Jesus is God or a human? The gods did have children with humans and their children were mortals with unusual powers. Jesus is not the only one with an unusual birth following the visits of angels. So was he born human? If so when did he become a god? For some, it was unthinkable that a god could be born from a woman. Some Jews were revolted by this idea. What people believed really depended on where they lived and their previous mythology and Christians killed each other over this issue.

Surely we have a father in heaven because Romans were adamant about the importance of fathers and his responsibility for his family. It would not be much of a shift from being ruled by a king with the favor of the gods, to worshiping a Father in heaven. What do you think?

If you want science, try this site

"The rational part of a teen's brain isn't fully developed and won't be until age 25 or so. In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain's rational part.
Understanding the Teen Brain - Health Encyclopedia - University of ...
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1...3051 "

When the constitution of the US was written, age 30 was considered still youth. Here are decisions made with that idea...

"In the United States, a person must be aged 35 or over to be President or Vice President, 30 or over to be a Senator, and 25 or over to be a Representative, as specified in the U.S. Constitution. Most states in the U.S. also have age requirements for the offices of Governor, State Senator, and State Representative.
Age of candidacy - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_candidacy "

At age 72 I am surprised by experiencing the difference between knowing facts and knowing the meaning of those facts. A young person who does not consult with older persons may not have the best judgment, and in some areas of decisions making, an older person should surely consult with a young one. But soon computers will take over our thinking tasks so we don't really need to bother with a concern about human reasoning. :wink:

I very much agree with you and like the quotes you used. Christianity had a terrible time when it as translated from Greek to Roman thought. Latin words had to be invented to because there were no Latin words for some Greek concepts. The problem with Romans not having Greek concepts lead to Christians killing Christians because of seeing God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost as three gods or one god. Romans didn't explore concepts as the Greeks did and didn't have the necessary vocabulary. Image making something believable by inventing a word.