That is about the most profound little exchange I have seen on this site. Thank you both for your insight and honesty. I, too have to think for myself about this in my own life. — unenlightened

I like the word "profound". That is the perfect word for my experience.

A few months ago someone at the pool told me a Hawaiian greeting goes like this....

"I am sorry, I hope you forgive me. I love you. thank you." Can you see how Pattener's words played into that greeting?

Humans are the worst. It's hard to articulate how stupid we are. We know love is the best thing about life. We know you can't use it up, because giving love only generates more love. And yet, we so very, very ... very often blow it.

Pride is one of love's biggest enemies. I can hold my pride tight, or I can give and receive love. I can't do both. They're mutually exclusive. — Patterner

I have recently used that greeting with my sister and my granddaughter when fear and anger were being very destructive. Because of Patterner's post I realized it is my ego that rebelled against saying those loving words. What I want most is love for all of us, but my ego was saying "hello no, I am not going to let them believe they are right and all the emotional problems are because I have been so bad." My ego wanted them to see their wrong. But I didn't understand that my ego was making matters worse until I read Patterner's post.

Frustrating! I got that my sister and granddaughter are going through serious turmoil and therefore they are not being rational. I got that the emotional problems would not be resolved by trying to be rational with them. But to let go and give love a chance is a huge leap of faith in love. My ego is jumping up and down and screaming like a charter in the Disney movie "Inside Out".

https://www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=eJzj4tLP1TcoLyjPSc8xYPSSTskszkutVMjNL8tMVUhMyi8tUUjNzS_JzM8rBgAoew7Y&q=disney+movie+about+emotions&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=disney+movie+about&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBEC4YgAQyCggAEAAY4wIYgAQyBwgBEC4YgAQyBggCEEUYOTIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABNIBCjE2NTE0ajBqMTWoAgiwAgE&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:77b128da,vid:LEjhY15eCx0,st:0

It should be noted that animals have cultures, traditions and can pass on knowledge to others. There scope is limited compared to ours though. All elements of human language (spoken/written/signed) can be seen in the rest of the animal kingdom, it is just that we happen to possess them all. Does rationality suddenly emerge because of this? Maybe that is your argument, I do not know? — I like sushi

No rationality does not suddenly emerge and that is the reason for this thread. It should be clear I am saying rationality must be learned. Unless we learn to think rationally, we base our thoughts on our feelings, and that can be very problematic. However, an argument against Daniel Kahneman's faith in the theory of fast and slow thinking, is the importance of our feelings and creative thinking. Life follows some rules but it is also chaotic and we can not always predict the future based on the past.

Were people rational before Aristotle wrote down the rules for logical thinking? We can argue the meaning of rational and we also understand our rational today is far from our rational in ancient times.
I am struggling to understand how given our modern, science-based understanding of life, can people still believe the Bible is a good explanation of reality. If our bodies were chemically more like clay statues than the bodies of apes, I could believe a God made us of mud, but I don't know how anyone could believe that today. This is important because we base decisions on what we believe is true about our creation. Our ability to make good decisions rests on what we believe is so.

Explaining how much we are like the rest of the animal kingdom, does not support a belief in a God walking in a Garden with a man made of mud and a woman made from his rib. That notion comes from a Sumerian story of creation, and it is not the word of God. How can know that? By translating and reading the Sumerian story. In the original story, the goddess who helped heal the river was associated with the rib and healing. Or we can examine the chemistry of humans and animals and realize our bodies have more in common with animals than mud. Rational thinking uses evidence. But faith is all about feeling! I feel this is true because when I started praying to God for help, I stopped being so afraid and He has helped me so many ways, versus the belief has been life-changing. I am voting for Trump because I believe he is God on earth and democrats are possessed by the devil and our minister told us to vote for Trump. :rofl: What is rational?

Believing in AI could be even worse than Orthodox religions and well-meaning efforts to control people.

Critical thinking is a higher-order thinking skill. Higher-order thinking skills go beyond basic observation of facts and memorization. They are what we are talking about when we want our students to be evaluative, creative and innovative.

When most people think of critical thinking, they think that their words (or the words of others) are supposed to get “criticized” and torn apart in argument, when in fact all it means is that they are criteria-based. These criteria require that we distinguish fact from fiction; synthesize and evaluate information; and clearly communicate, solve problems and discover truths.

https://cetl.uconn.edu/resources/design-your-course/teaching-and-learning-techniques/critical-thinking-and-other-higher-order-thinking-skills/

That is not my definition but I agree with the definition. I am passionate about it because I believe the US is in big trouble because it changed how children are taught to think. Now instead of Walter Cronkite and rational media, we have news that is emotional yellow journalism and people are basing their judgments on how they feel, not having a clue that something is wrong with their rational thinking. They are not well informed and we are not using the higher order thinking skills. We are overly dependent on our emotions. What is happening today happened in Germany before the Second World War. Education for technology is not the liberal education that dominated education in the US before 1958. How we teach our children to think matters.

The trouble is that there is nothing to prevent people using the word "rational" in different ways.
The truth is that even we humans are not rational simplicter. We are a mixture. Our starting-point is the ability to learn - this happens automatically from the moment we are born. There's a range of skills involved and there's no guarantee that everyone will learn all of them.
The word "thinking" is very, very difficult to pin down. We distinguish explicit thinking from acting, forgetting to notice that thinking is something we do, and so is also an action - thought sometimes thoughts just occur to us and we aren't deliberately doing it and sometimes it is not under our control. So is more like breathing - it can be automatic, and it can be under voluntary control.
But we can act without explicit thinking beforehand, and I don't think there is any reason to say that all such actions are non-rational. But it is complicated. Habitual actions, for example, are a bit marginal; we often do them, as we say, without thinking - that's when the habit doesn't adjust to unusual circumstances. We can also react very fast in an emergency and these actions can be more like a reflex than a true action. (True actions need to be under our conscious control.)
I hope I'm not confusing you. I'll stop there. — Ludwig V

The problem is not answering the question. Is believing and defending a myth or false belief, rational thinking?

Thinking, Fast and Slow is a 2011 popular science book by psychologist Daniel Kahneman. The book's main thesis is a differentiation between two modes of thought: "System 1" is fast, instinctive and emotional; "System 2" is slower, more deliberative, and more logical. Wikipedia

The book Emotional Intelligence gives a good example of fast thinking. A father shot and killed his son thinking his son was away at college and the person who jumped out of the closet was an intruder. The father reacted in fear before thinking. Emotions play a big role in our thinking, especially if we do not habitually use the higher-order thinking skills. It is likely this year our votes will be based on our feelings, not rational thinking.

We can also divide thinking as literal or abstract. Is Satan and his demons real? Do we need fear being possessed by demons which is interpreting the Bible literally? Abstractly is a demon is just an unpleasant thought that we can get rid of by being rational? That would make demons an abstract thought.

Information about changes in our brains may help with understanding how human brains are different from other animals.

Yes, children's brains undergo significant changes around the age of eight, including the development of new neural circuitry:
Frontal cortex
The frontal cortex, which controls thinking and logic, begins to develop, allowing children to think more complexly and reason.
Integration
Children can now process two things at once, which makes them more reasonable and less impulsive.
Cognitive development
Children can mentally combine, separate, order, and transform objects and actions. They can also apply logic and reason, and focus their attention.
Creativity
Children develop creative skills through writing, acting, inventing, and designing.
Interest
Children begin to collect things and develop an interest in projects. They also develop a sense of right and wrong, and care about fairness.
The brain's development is a complex process that continues into early adulthood. The early years of childhood are especially important for brain development, as experiences during this time strongly influence the development of sensory and perceptual systems.
https://www.google.com/search?q=brain+nureons+change+at+age+8&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=brain+nureons+change+at+age+8&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAEyCQgGECEYChirAjIHCAcQIRiPAjIHCAgQIRiPAtIBCjE0MzUzajBqMTWoAgiwAgE&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This is false. Chimps can cooperate and problem solve, as can chickens. The latter may be mere 'programming' but I would not say we can state one way or another what we mean by 'language' to begin with. — I like sushi

Is it rational to literally interpret the Bible and believe it is the word of God? How about if we interpret the Bible abstractly, is that rational? Would animals also have literal interpretations and abstract ones?

Isn't it a bit difficult to comprehend thinking without words? I know preverbal babies do have thoughts without words, but once we learn words in a way we are thrown out of Eden because words separate us from experience. That is we are aware of what we are thinking and no longer have a pure unadulterated experience of life. Now we can envy the animals that are still one with nature.

Imo, a young Japanese macaque, was the first to wash her food, a sweet potato, in 1954:
Hundredth monkey effect - Wikipedia

Imo did not think she did not like sand in her food and consider ways to resolve the problem. She experienced a washed yam and began washing yams. Slowly the rest began imitating her although she did not explain to them why she washed yams and they did not discuss if this is a good idea or not. While the college student may be unable to figure out how to clean a yam if there is no faucet with clean water nearby. In some ways, our ability to resolve problems is diminished with thinking. Such as I could not get out of the gate that required a code but my friend with a lower IQ did not hesitate in sticking his hand through the gate and opening it from the outside.

The reason I am arguing so strongly is we learn how to think and we should not expect everyone to think rationally without training. We should not take thinking for granted.

Eros leads the way upwards, as Plato says in the Symposium: — Count Timothy von Icarus

Women were not permitted to attend "respectable" symposia in ancient Greece, but high-class female prostitutes (hetairai) and entertainers were often hired to perform and converse with the guests.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/history-magazine/article/ancient-greece-symposium-dinner-party#:~:text=In%20ancient%20Greece%2C%20wealthy%20men,women%2C%20wine%2C%20and%20song.

That order of things is not apt to bring us close to the good life because women were not equals and leaving men in charge is problematic. Appreciating beauty, good music, and good art and intentionally becoming refined may bring heaven to earth, but not if women are excluded.

When I see fathers with their children, I have hope that we will see a better day. I think our culture has been male-dominant, especially since industrialization. I think we are suffering serious problems because of that. Homes without good fathers are not a good thing.

"Several years later"? Don't I wish! :rofl: I'm 60. — Patterner

You are still a kid.

It is wonderful to have a place where thinking people can gather and share their thoughts and what they have learned. I was intellectually starving to death before the Internet. The media talks about the problems with social media, but I see reason to hope for a better world because of social media.

From the standpoint of Buddhism, love would be the act of mindfulness—the inner peace and interconnectedness we reach when we momentarily touch Nirvana. In a more mundane sense, loving kindness in our thoughts, words, and deeds is a consequence of love. I would say it's not necessary to "know" the person or thing that receives love; simply being aware makes it possible to express and share this mind state. — Alonsoaceves

I am beginning to understand that of which you speak. There was a time in my life when I could not imagine happiness and love. I had done my best to have a happy family and failed. A problem I have with Buddhism is, I have not picked up family values from Buddhism. In my later years, I have the luxury of focusing on my own happiness and it is no longer dependent on family, but I think civilizations depend on families. That may not be true. However, if civilization is dependent on families and our happiness depends on happy families, we are in trouble.

If anything I've learned from my own failures helps, then I'm happy. Love to you. — Patterner

I don't know about you but when I was 18 I thought I was an adult and knew everything that I needed to know. Several years later it is amazing how much more there is to learn. It is a shame it takes so long to learn how to live well, and then we are old and no one wants to listen. What hurts is seeing how family problems can affect the children for several generations.

Seagulls are more careful about mating and birds do not reproduce until they have a nest. I think a god could have made us smarter before giving us freedom of will and setting us out to fend for ourselves.

I can hold my pride tight, or I can give and receive love. I can't do both. They're mutually exclusive. — Patterner

Hours later your words mixed with another thought I am holding and together those thoughts could potentially be life changing. I take pride in being pretty egoless, but I became aware of what my ego has to do with some conflict resolution failures. Interesting. I look to seeing if a changed behavior pattern gets better results. I thought that you might like to know your words were so effective.

Pride is one of love's biggest enemies. I can hold my pride tight, or I can give and receive love. I can't do both. They're mutually exclusive.

As Ed learned on Northern Exposure, low self-esteem is also a big problem. It's difficult to accept love when you don't think you're worthy of it. And it's difficult to give love when you think your love isn't worthy.

Fear. "What if it's too late?" "What if s/he doesn't feel the same any longer?" But, if you don't try, you definitely lose. — Patterner

It has been pretty easy for me to be egoless and giving rather than taking. I associate what you said with the Hippie movement. As I saw communes struggling, I realized we were not cultivated to live communally. Today not even families can not live together. We all have to have our own homes and live apart to avoid all the conflicts of interest.

I want to focus on "I can hold my pride tight, or I can give and receive love." I don't have anything to say about that now, but want to write that thought on a piece of paper that I can read often and ponder. I have some pretty uneasy feelings when I read that thought and think of my behavior. I need to look deeper into why that thought makes me feel uncomfortable as though I have done something wrong.

Pride is important. It is why we do our laundry and take a shower and give social service but it could have a negative side if it isn't balanced. Hum,:chin: I have to think about that.

It could, especially if a nasty strain of Christianity ruled all their lives and limited what they were allowed to do. Even then, some families managed warmth and kindness, even if the parents could not love each other. — Vera Mont

I strongly favor studying animals to know ourselves. I also strongly favor cross-cultural studies.

I think our creation stories are very important and I do not like the Christian one. My first introduction to Eastern thought was a Hindu book putting the responsibility of making good choices on us without blaming an evil power and a God's curse for our struggles. I don't think Christians saw God as a loving God until our bellies were full. The Christian god was jealous, revengeful, and punishing, and I don't think that was good for loving families.

I also think our time and place in history makes a difference. Each cohort is affected by different historical events and movements. I am nostalgic for the Hippie period of love, a return to nature and equality. I remember troubles but our spirits were better and full of hope. We were going to make the world a better place and I think we made a lot of progress but it is not well balanced. I have a sense that between my generation and sister's, there was a shift a backlash maybe. Cooperate power and the drive for money over powered our drive for love.

Compassion is the embodiment of love. Through mutual understanding, we cultivate the willingness to connect and love unconditionally. When we show compassion to others, we also nurture ourselves. Ultimately, isn't the union of consciousness – where boundaries dissolve and we recognize our shared humanity – the true essence of love? — Alonsoaceves

I was wondering where Buddhist compassion played into love. I do not always see conservative Christians as loving people and I have gained some familiarity with Eastern religion and philosophy. I also pay much attention to awareness, consciousness, and intentional living.

Research tells us doing for others is a good way to make ourselves happy.

The movie What the Bleep Do We Know blends quantum physics with spirituality. That opens more questions than I have answers. Is pure consciousness loving?

Filial love, fraternal love, friendship, all go though changes over time. But they are all grounded in regard for that other person who is special to you for some particular reason.
Romantic love goes through changes, too. Sometimes it dies young, because its roots were shallow. Sometimes it lasts a lifetime and beyond, because its roots are deep: because the other person is special for reasons fundamental to your own well-being and happiness. — Vera Mont

I very much like what you said here because you covered many types of love. Hopefully, a mother and father feel love for a child, especially if the mother breastfeeds the baby, there are hormonal factors in that love. However, mothers and fathers do not always experience love for a child. In the past I don't think love had much to do with family. It was expected for a man and woman to marry and have children. From there was family duty. That could result in very unloving families. There was some charity but no government assistance. Which brings me to religion and God as love and how do we understand love?

I am most concerned with sisters and brothers loving each other and love of grandparents and grandchildren because these relationships have presented challenges. I get we love someone who is special to us but what if that person does not feel loved? No amount of effort can change the minds of people who do not receive love. At least I have not found the magic key that makes a hurt, scared, and angry person feel loved. And my gosh siblings who think they have to compete with a brother or sister for love can be miserable people.

A friend of mine feels strongly about everyone believing God is love. I think that is a wonderful fantasy but have to agree that that fantasy has had a good cultural benefit and for the people who believe, it is a very beneficial fantasy.

1. So do you think that the people who built the pyramids were rational or not? (They built them before the ancient Greeks started philosophizing.)

2. About the process of learning or acquiring a habit or routine. I grant you that putting on one's lucky trainers when going out to compete is not (normally) rational. But when the habit or routine is capable of rational justification - driving or fuelling one's car would be examples - is learning or practising those activities rational or not? — Ludwig V

I love that first question because it stretches our thinking!

That second one is hard to answer. Is it rational to believe something that is not true?

I agree rational thinking requires language and then questioning out one thinks and that animals do not do this and can not do so without language. However, there is evidence that bonobos can learn language and judge right from wrong. Why not, we are on the same branch of the tree. But it is curious in nature that bonobos do not develop language independent of human intervention. However, if a bonobo does learn language at least one of them has taught the offspring language. I am wondering if they would continue to pass on language and if so, would they develop better language skills in following generations? (evolution working)

More important, should we assume all humans are rational thinkers or must they learn the higher order thinking skills to be rational? Is believing and defending a myth, rational thinking?

Thank you everyone. I read all the posts and will contemplate them and my experiences with love as I drift off to sleep.

If you ask what makes us human, the answer will not be "rationality", but emotion. Ironical, don't you think? — Ludwig V

That is a very interesting comment. It deserves its own thread- What Makes Us Human. My first love was sociology. Compared to primitive cultures religions today might pose different reasoning regarding what makes us human. I am not sure if today, all people believe we are all human. We still live with the reasoning that some people are less than human.

Yet another criterion. The more requirements you add, the fewer entities may exercise a faculty that was once available to everything in possession of a cerebellum.
All thinking animals can act rationally, emotionally, instinctively or chaotically (when they're ill). I very much doubt that thought processes take different amounts of energy to perform. — Vera Mont

If you doubt that different thought processes consume different levels of energy you might google for information. There are problems with accessing some sites. The following site has the information but requires an email address and maybe you can find one that is easier to access. I already recommended the "Fast and Slow thinking" link but I don't think you paid attention to it.

Yes, it's true that some types of thinking require more energy than others, as complex mental tasks, like problem solving or learning new information, activate more brain regions and demand a higher level of neural activity, resulting in increased energy consumption compared to simpler thought processes like daydreaming or routine tasks.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/thinking-hard-calories/#:~:text=%22In%20theory%2C%20yes%2C%20a,percentage%20of%20the%20overall%20rate.

All thinking is not the same and animals that instantly do mathematical calculations, such as bats with sonar are not doing those calculations as we do them. Understanding differences in thinking is important to the subject rational thinking- human and animal.

It's genetics, not simply epigenetics. And don’t overlook the fact that not only are their brains not equipped for language, but neither are their vocal tracts, for which the h.sapiens anatomy is uniquely suited. — Wayfarer

There is no final decision about how information is transmitted from one generation to the next.

Memories passed down in our genes? Not exactly. But biologists have observed examples of learned behaviors and acquired responses being transmitted through several generations, contrary to the traditional rules of genetic inheritance. https://www.quantamagazine.org/inherited-learning-it-happens-but-how-is-uncertain-20191016/#:~:text=Memories%20passed%20down%20in%20our,traditional%20rules%20of%20genetic%20inheritance.

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We do know that dogs that became used to humans became domesticated and that a gene controls if a dog can or can not be domesticated. The dogs that interacted with humans developed and spread this gene. This is not just about DNA but also RNA.

RNA, is another macromolecule essential for all known forms of life. Like DNA, RNA is made up of nucleotides. Once thought to play ancillary roles, RNAs are now understood to be among a cell’s key regulatory players where they catalyze biological reactions, control and modulate gene expression, sensing and communicating responses to cellular signals, etc. https://cm.jefferson.edu/learn/dna-and-rna/#:~:text=There%20are%20two%20differences%20that,uracil%20while%20DNA%20contains%20thymine.

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Skills and Talents Influenced by Your Genes
Aptitude and talent in various fields, such as intelligence, creativity, and athleticism, are attributed to genetic factors. For example, drawing, playing an instrument, or dancing may come more naturally to some people than to others. Similarly, genetic factors can influence traits like analytical and critical thinking, communication, and research skills. Skills and Talents Influenced by Your Genes
https://seniorslifestylemag.com/featured/5-skills-and-talents-that-are-influenced-by-your-genes/#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20drawing%2C%20playing%20an,%2C%20communication%2C%20and%20research%20skills.

I think this is about the process of evolution and how close humans and apes are.

Oh, we can be quite irrational in language, too. Just listen to a speech by.... never mind.
Humans have an enormous brain, only a small part of which is required to run the vital physical systems and another small part for reflex actions and survival instincts. The rest is available for learning, memory, language, culture, skill acquisition, storytelling, convictions, wealth accumulation, altruism, invention, emotional complexity, deceit, social bonding, philosophy, ambition, superstition, delusion and madness. As well as reasoning and assessment. — Vera Mont

But all that is not rational thinking. Rational thinking requires critical thinking and we would have an extremely short lifespan if all our awake time was also our critical thinking time.

Colloquially, “rational” has several meanings. It can describe a thinking process based on an evaluation of objective facts (rather than superstition or powerful emotions); a decision that maximizes personal benefit; or simply a decision that’s sensible. In this article, the first definition applies: Rational decisions are those grounded on solid statistics and objective facts, resulting in the same choices as would be computed by a logical robot. But they’re not necessarily the most sensible. https://qz.com/922924/humans-werent-designed-to-be-rational-and-we-are-better-thinkers-for-it

Rational thinking requires a huge amount of energy and we would have very short life spans if all our waking hours we were thinking rationally. Also, it is fun to know forgetting is as important to making sense of life as learning is. One of the hardest parts of learning is often we must forget to have useful information in the present. You don't want to know your grocery list for every time you have gone shopping. You only want today's grocery list and if too much information is in our conscious thoughts it becomes useless.

Completely rational thinking has draw backs and here is an explanation of that...same link

“If you fine-tune on the past with an optimization model, and the future is not like the past, then that can be a big failure, as illustrated in the last financial crisis,” he explains. “In a world where you can calculate the risks, the rational way is to rely on statistics and probability theory. But in a world of uncertainty, not everything is known—the future may be different from the past—then statistics by itself cannot provide you with the best answer anymore.”

Henry Brighton, a cognitive science and artificial intelligence professor at Tilburg University in the Netherlands, who’s also a researcher at the Max Planck Institute, adds that, in a real-world setting, most truly important decisions rely at least in part on subjective preferences.

“The number of objective facts deserving of that term is extremely low and almost negligible in everyday life,” he says. “The whole idea of using logic to make decisions in the world is to me a fairly peculiar one, given that we live in a world of high uncertainty which is precisely the conditions in which logic is not the appropriate framework for thinking about decision-making.”

Several Star Trek shows are about human judgment that is not based on rational thinking and I don't think Star Trek fans are in favor of AI ruling over us.

Experiences can be hard to explain to someone who has not had that particular experience. Remember Spock in a Star Trek episode, where he died and Doc asked him what it was like to die? Spock asked him if he ever died, and incredulously Doc said "no". Then Spock said, if he did not have the experience he had nothing to reference.

I rather be with people my own age, who have gone through my time in history, because they know what I am talking about. That is not the case when talking with younger people, who may be sure I am wrong because they have not had that experience. :lol: It is laughable when an organization has changed its policy and I object to the change, and the young person who has been on the job for maybe 6 months, tells me there was no change and things are as they always were.

Amazingly, human beings can proceed and believe humans are intelligent and capable of communication when they are not working with the same facts and understandings of life. While bees and ants have almost perfect communication. I don't think anyone would say they are intelligent. They are not self-aware and reasoning how to build their homes or go about their chores or who the queen should be queen. We might say the ants and bees are more rational than humans because they don't carry false or incorrect stories about what is so.

I think we could make a good argument that human beings are not rational. The chatter that goes on their heads may be totally incorrect but without critical thinking, they may be willing to kill for what they believe is so.

Thank you for opening the discussion on human thinking.

Well, they did survive, so they must have made some rational decisions along the way. We can't see the process, only the result. — Vera Mont

Surviving does not require the ability to think. You would not want to say alligators think, would you? They do not have a cortex and it is the cortex that makes us thinking animals. Alligators have reptilian brains, and so do we. I have been with severely brain-damaged people and they may be able to make some survival choices but their inability to think means very poor decision making.

Insects and animals do amazing things as a matter of instinct and want to add epigensome to this, which I define in my post just before this one. Our emotions can cancel out our ability to think, resulting in us reacting perfectly to an emergency or perhaps doing something we seriously regret. Just because we are capable of rational thinking, that does not mean that is what we are doing 24/7. Our brains are like chattering monkeys constantly running from one thought to another, but this is not rational thinking.

I think we need to understand the importance of language and learned logic skills for rational thinking. Not all thinking is rational thinking.

Some people say they think in images. (Planning how to pack a suitcase, for example). I don't, but how could I contradict them?
Sometimes, when we are improvising, we are thinking by doing.
Then there's all the thinking that goes on that we are not aware of. This is more controversial, philosophically speaking. My favourite example is our echo-location. Phenomenologically, we just know where a sound is. But the scientists tell us that we work out where sounds are by the difference in the sound between one ear and the other - it arrives later on the side furthest from the source.
This is sometimes called "tacit knowledge". There's a lot of it about, but philosophy regards it as secondary to conscious thinking. Short story. It's a bit of a mystery.
And Vera Mont is quite right to cite feral human children. When found, they are often completely without language, yet can clearly respond appropriately to what's going on. (They also, I understand, find it very difficult to learn language at all.) But that only demonstrates that it is possible to think unconsciously and without language. So it is important for this thread. — Ludwig V

I had to look up tacit knowledge and found this..

Examples of tacit knowledge include knowledge of how to manage an angry customer or the know-how required to complete a complex task. This type of knowledge is often not easily captured in words, and therefore not easily transferred from one person to another. https://helpjuice.com/blog/tacit-knowledge#:~:text=Tacit%20knowledge%20refers%20to%20the,Tribal%20knowledge

I knew a man who was mechanical and took a class in physics and failed, yet he could resolve a mechanical/physics problem that no one else in the class could figure out. I would say that is an example of tacit knowledge. It is not understanding theory which is a verbal explanation of how something works. Verbal knowledge is something the man has trouble learning but he has knowledge that is not verbal.

When speaking of rational thinking- human and animal, I think we should mull over what is a thought. You said a thought can be an image rather than words and I spoke with a woman who designs things for people who request designs such as a machine that makes concrete barriers for a fancy garden. She said she sees the required parts of such a machine. She came to her job by her unique skill, not education.

Now if we agree rational thinking requires words, the two people I mentioned are not thinking with words and that might be akin to how animals think. With sonar, a bat can do amazing things and that is not a verbal task. Animals in general do amazing thing without words and could label all this tacit knowledge?

When arguing bonobo can learn language I wanted to say something that I didn't have the words for. Your thoughts helped me find the right words...

We used to think that a new embryo's epigenome was completely erased and rebuilt from scratch. But this isn't completely true. Some epigenetic tags remain in place as genetic information passes from generation to generation, a process called epigenetic inheritance.

Epigenetic inheritance is an unconventional finding. It goes against the idea that inheritance happens only through the DNA code that passes from parent to offspring. It means that a parent's experiences, in the form of epigenetic tags, can be passed down to future generations. https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/inheritance/

I believe bonobos have the potential for learning language but it is dormant because they lack the epigenome and inherited use of language that humans have. However, if they were taught communication as infants and were in an environment that encouraged communicating, their children would have epigenome and inherited language skills and they could eventually evolve into using language.

Graphic and physical. It's what feral human children do to survive in the wild. — Vera Mont

That would not cover rational thinking would it?

And very interesting to me. Do you have more to share about animals and laughing? That surely involves a degree of thinking. But what is thinking without words?

That was a great video and so were the others that came with it. I will have to check them out again when I have nothing to do and look for more because the animal videos make me happy. Thank you.

That is a very popular quote - I'm fond of it myself. But Aristotle didn't mean by "political" what we mean by it; we took the Greek word and distorted its meaning. He meant that human beings live in cities - that's all. It's still a surprising thought for its time. — Ludwig V

Hum, this is the definition that Wikipedia gives-

Politics (from Ancient Greek πολιτικά (politiká) 'affairs of the cities') is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals, such as the distribution of status or resources.

Politics - Wikipedia

Being a Athenian means a little more than just living in the city.

This oath was recited by the citizens of Athens, Greece, more than 2,000 years ago. Learn more about this timeless code of civic responsibility.

“We will never bring disgrace on this our City by an act of dishonesty or cowardice.
We will fight for the ideals and Sacred Things of the City both alone and with many.
We will revere and obey the City's laws, and will do our best to incite a like reverence and respect in those above us who are prone to annul them or set them at naught.
We will strive unceasingly to quicken the public's sense of civic duty.
Thus, in all these ways, we will transmit this City not only, not less, but greater and more beautiful than it was transmitted to us.” https://www.dianekalensukra.com/post/take-the-athenian-oath#:~:text=%22I%20will%20never%20bring%20reproach,than%20when%20I%20received%20it.

The issue is how much organic life combined with simulated consciousness will it take to lead to pain emotions. The presence of a brain and nervous system is probably of significance. — Jack Cummins

Pain requires an organic body that can be aware of pain. This is true for any pain or feelings of joy. Without the body, feelings can not exist and without feelings, judgment is lacking an important piece of information.

Of course, it would be an error to see such damage as being damaging beyond repair necessarily. But, it may take a lot of therapy and support for healing to occur. This is especially true when those who have a history of early childhood trauma experience severe life stresses at later points in life as well. — Jack Cummins

It is crazy making when something triggers emotions that bring past feelings into the present and the person experiencing this is not aware of the problem being in the past. The person may know the present reactions are inappropriate for the present but have no control over the feelings. Awareness of the traumatizing event is essential to regaining sanity.

Because preverbal children have no verbal explanation of what happened, they can't be aware of it without someone explaining what happened. Fortunately, my mother told me of discovering I had one leg shorter than the other and I had trouble walking. That is why I was put in a body cast and the doctor was pretty careless with me when he dropped me on the table like a suitcase and told my mother she could take me home. But I didn't understand the chaotic terror I felt until I did EST and regressed to that moment in time.

I would say preverbal babies record such moments emotionally and don't have words to explain what happened. I might be stuck with that time in my history if my mother had not told me, and I had not found the explanation of PSTD and had not read a book about traumatized children. I was diagnosed as having PSTD but the event that caused it was unknown. When I told professionals what happened to me they ignored the possibility that the medical procedure could have been traumatic. I had been molested when in my teens and the therapists were hung up on that. When I asked why that would cause a problem I was told the child's body could not cope with such a terrible thing. Huh?. The molestation led to a family problem but in itself was not so terrible compared to being encased in cement for a year. :lol: I am angry about people being unaware of how badly medical procedures can affect a child. Hopefully today, doctors recognize there is a sentient being in the body they are treating and the primary caregiver may need extra support to feel confident in their ability to care for the child.

I think what we know now can result in a better world. Human beings have been very barbaric, Wars are very barbaric and it is shocking to me that some nations today are still acting like chimpanzees in the wild. We have nations acting like preverbal animals and thinking their barbaric behavior is justified. For every baby in the world, I am saying that barbaric behavior can never be justified. War is a crime against children.

"Boy, when your hand went into that fire and you pulled it out, you did some quick thinking and came up with a really rational response." — Fire Ologist

:rofl: Thank you for the humorous gift.

A dog wants to lick a bowl. So the dog begs. When the person looks at the dog, the dog moves his eyes to the bowl to communicate or tell the person what he wants. — Fire Ologist

Wow that is insightful. In a documentary on TV they made a big deal out of the fact that a dog will investigate where a person points, and you are telling us that a dog points with its eyes. That deserves some research. Oh and the pointer dog!

Pointing dogs, sometimes called bird dogs, are a type of gundog typically used in finding game. Gundogs are traditionally divided into three classes: retrievers, flushing dogs, and pointing breeds. The name pointer comes from the dog's instinct to point, by stopping and aiming its muzzle towards game. Wikipedia

I wish I could talk to the people who made the documentary for TV and raise awareness of dogs naturally pointing.

We think. — Fire Ologist

That could be the subject for a whole thread.

Au contraire, mon frère, and I know this from personal experience. What swims around in our brains 99 percent of the time are memories, worries, ruminations, replays, reactions, and judgments (of ourselves, as well as of others). They’re sound bytes and flashbacks. We can call them thoughts–but they don’t constitute thinking....

Real thinking is active, not passive. Real thinking is purposeful.

What’s more, real thinking is almost always more positive and productive than the unchecked babble that goes on in our heads much of the time. Real…
https://medium.com/the-orange-journal/how-much-time-do-we-actually-spend-thinking-45a4bf09db40

This is my favorite explanation of thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqXVAo7dVRU

I harp about thinking because we tend to jump to conclusions without doing the real work of thinking. And people will kill each other because of differences in belief. Maybe we can not stop that, but perhaps awareness of how our brains work will help us go through life a little more sanely.

Ever read Stranger in a Stranger Land? The protagonist decided that's what separates us. Man is the animal that laughs. — Patterner

Some researchers believe other animals have a sense of humor.

We think of humour as a distinctly human emotion, but some animals may also use it to strengthen their bonds. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240223-do-animals-have-sense-of-humour

I would love to see research with pigs because of what @wonderer said about piglets.

I've gotten the impression that pigs, at least when young, have a sense of humor. (A mother pig with a litter of piglets, not so much.) — wonderer1

How totally fascinating. That would make a great research project. We know animals change once they pass puberty, and we know the young are more open to exploring new things. Could our capacity for humor change as we age? Is a sense of humor and joy of learning new things something we can preserve as we age, delaying the negative effects of aging. And there is also that human-pig bonding issue. Can playfulness improve our relationships with animals? Where as that old sow is stuck in her ways and is not open to a relationship with humans?

Yes, pigs are social animals:
Social groups
Pigs live in stable social groups, often in matriarchal structures, where they form close bonds with each other.
Social hierarchies
Pigs develop social hierarchies through scent and noise, and these hierarchies can be established even when pigs are blindfolded. https://www.merckvetmanual.com/behavior/normal-social-behavior-and-behavioral-problems-of-domestic-animals/social-behavior-of-swine

That chimps are aggressive wasn't the point of the Nim Chimpsky experiment. It was an attempt to teach chimps language, and it failed. I now find the experimenter, Herbert Terrace, wrote a book on it, 'Why Chimpanzees Can't Learn Language and Humans Can'. The cover blurb says 'Initially, Terrace thought that Nim could create sentences but later discovered that Nim’s teachers inadvertently cued his signing. Terrace concluded that Project Nim failed—not because Nim couldn’t create sentences but because he couldn’t even learn words. Language is a uniquely human quality, and attempting to find it in animals is wishful thinking at best.' And that is directly relevant to this dicussion. — Wayfarer

That chimps are more aggressive than bonobo needs to be taken into consideration because individual temperament is involved in learning.

Also, I don't think we all have an agreement about what language is. I think we have agreement that animals are capable of communication but does that equal language? Even if it did equal language is that language limited to a few words and what concepts does that serve? I think we are looking at evolution here. A bonobo that learned to sign taught her offspring to sign. In the wild, this is unlikely to happen naturally, but perhaps in a human environment, human socialization is picked up, setting the animal on the path humans took.

An animal's willingness to play with people increases bonding just as play is important in nature and building social connections. Would you please read the quote and tell me what you think? Did Kanzi not only demonstrate an understanding of words but also used a conceptual word demonstrating judgment associated with a word?

[/quote]In a landmark study in the mid-1990s, Savage-Rumbaugh exposed Kanzi to 660 novel English sentences including “Put on the monster mask and scare Linda” and “Go get the ball that’s outside [as opposed to the ball sitting beside you].” In 72 percent of the trials, Kanzi completed the request, outcompeting a 2½-year-old child. Yet his most memorable behavior emerged outside the context of replicable trials. Sampling kale for the first time, he called it “slow lettuce.” When his mother once bit him in frustration, he looked mournfully at Savage-Rumbaugh and pressed, “Matata bite.” When Savage-Rumbaugh added symbols for the words “good” and “bad” to the keyboard, he seized on these abstract concepts, often pointing to “bad” before grabbing something from a caregiver—a kind of prank. Once, when Savage-Rumbaugh’s sister Liz Pugh, who worked at the Language Research Center as a caregiver, was napping, Kanzi snatched the balled-up blanket she’d been using as a pillow. When Pugh jolted awake, Kanzi pressed the symbols for “bad surprise.”
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/bonobos-teach-humans-about-nature-language-180975191/
[/quote]

Language and linguistics is important in the navigation of choices. This may be where human beings differ so greatly from animals. Lqnguage is at the core of human meaning and understanding. As the cognitive behavioral thinkers suggest, emotions and behaviour are not caused by experiences but by our interpretation of them. Nevertheless, it is a difficult area because while humans may struggle with interpretation and framing, the experiences of perceived 'trauma' has lasting effects, including upon the brain and biochemistry, This includes PTSD and the basis of so much which is experienced and diagnosed as 'mental illness'. — Jack Cummins

Amity — Amity

I wish I had remembers the words '"emotions and behaviour are not caused by experiences but by our interpretation of them." when I was in the heat of an emotional storm with my sister. I was so aware of that, but could not put the right words to that awareness at the time. :rofl: It can be hard to be rational when the bombs are falling. But I did know my sister was in her little girl story and ideas of competition.

The chemical component of past trouble concerns me. That does not seem fair to me. A bad experience is bad enough, but to live with it our whole lives just isn't fair.

WOW! I just looked for more information and especially this jumps out at me as very important!

The third medicine is community care. The truth is, we heal together. Oppression and colonization teach competition, close-mindedness, distrust, individualism, and the goal of obtaining power over others. Rewrite that script. Recite the love language of your ancestors.

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2023/06/healing-collective-trauma

I so wish I could get my brain to write books. One would be "Our Shared Trauma" and it would about how the Great Depression and Second World War traumatized us. Us being worldwide but my thoughts are limited to knowledge of the US experience. There are some good books about what war does to human beings, and always periods of war and famine have scarred human beings. The way we talk about this today gives us some hope for a more civilized future.

Looks like a republic/democrat divide.
— Athena

:rofl: — wonderer1

Thank you. Hum, do other animals laugh?

a new study shows that humans may not be alone in their love of playing practical jokes. Animals can tease each other too. Together with colleagues, Isabelle Laumer, a post-doctoral researcher at the University of California Los Angeles (UCLA), watched over 75 hours of videos of great apes interacting with each other. Great apes are our closest living relatives, and include orangutans, chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas. The apes in the study all lived in zoos, and were filmed attending to their daily routines. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240223-do-animals-have-sense-of-humour

:chin: I understood play is important to social bonding and establishing social order but intentional humor? From experience, I know humor is very important for humans and that things can go very sour if we lose our sense of humor. In fact, I think humor is so important, we might want to teach it in school. Wouldn't it be nice if our schools produced comedians instead of killers.

Anyway, I think our pragmatic concerns are too different for us to reach aggreement anytime soon. — wonderer1

I think we are in agreement. You made a very good point. I like that the Greeks thought we are political creatures and it is fitting for this thread to question if any other life form is political. Chimps will sort of choose their leader, by ganging up on a leader they want to get rid of. An old leader who lost a fight may be allowed to stay close to the group. I just looked for more information and this link caught my interest.

Chimps use military tactic only ever seen in humans before

Chimps use an ancient military tactic to make decisions and avoid potentially fatal clashes with rival groups, scientists have discovered.

Researchers observed two western chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes verus) communities in Africa take to the hills to carry out surveillance on each other — much like reconnaissance missions used by militaries. They then used that intel to decide when to enter contested territory.

Plenty of animals look out for danger in their environment, but this is the first time scientists have documented a non-human species making elaborate use of elevated terrain to assess risk in a territorial conflict, according to the new study, published Nov. 2 in the journal PLOS Biology.
https://www.livescience.com/animals/monkeys/chimps-use-military-tactic-only-ever-seen-in-humans-before

It is kind of exciting to think about this and the evolution of social order. I googled if bonobo also use military tactics and I got this...

No, bonobos don't use military tactics, but they do have their own ways of responding to conflict:
Individualistic survival strategies: Male bonobos tend to survive on their own, which may be due to their tendency to follow female groups.
Sociosexual behavior: When faced with conflict, bonobos produce cortisol, the body's main stress hormone, and respond with anxiety instead of aggression. They relieve their discomfort by hugging, kissing, and having brief sexual encounters with group members.
https://www.google.com/search?q=do+bonobo+use+military+tactics&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=do+bonobo+use+military+tactics&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQoxODMwN2owajE1qAIIsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Looks like a republican/democrat divide.

One does feel that something like that must have happened. But we don't have, and probably never will have any detailed evidence about what actually happened. It's important to keep hold of the proviso. Philosophers are very fond of "it must be that way, so it is that way" - and less fond of being proved wrong. — Ludwig V

Yes, we do have information that can support how dogs became domestic. By studying the DNA we know when wild dogs became fully domestic. Dogs are not the only animals that can be domesticated and we are not going to make a turkey a domesticated animal. Animals that can not be domesticated may get along with humans just fine until puberty.

I have heard some pigs can make good pets and because you said (they may follow a human point), I looked for more information. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/pigs-dogs-pets-communication . Some pigs bond with humans and may communicate with them like dogs do. Interestingly pigs need the social factor. I think they rather be with their own kind, but if their only choice is a human they will settle for making friends with a human.

because pointing (ostensive definition) is usually thought to be fundamental in learning language. — Ludwig V

That is so interesting! When teaching bonobo how to communicate with a picture board maybe this reaction of following a point plays into the learning? Do you have more information about this?

What you are saying about your experience with your sister shows the power of nurture inherent in our core thinking. As Freud suggested, so much of our basic personality structure is determined in our first 5 years. This is also consistent with the neurochemistry of thought, with the added factor of nature, including genetics, alongside nurture.

It is so difficult to break free from our constructions and defence mechanisms of the past. I don't have brothers or sisters, but I am aware that I am restricted by aspects of childhood patterns of thinking. In particular, I am inclined to go into the victim mode as a doorway into negative thinking.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is more focused on the present as opposed to the analysis of the past in psychoanalytic therapy. Making changes is very far from easy though, as it may require a need to reframe the past. It may require a lot of work on oneself to do this effectively and consistently. In this sense, free will may not be a given aspect of thinking but as a mode of ability which needs to be developed. — Jack Cummins

You triggered some thoughts in my head.

Number one thought is how important is the first 5 years. I think that information is stored in our subconscious and pops up automatically when something in the present triggers it. As for the recent drama with my sister, I would swear that was a frightened 3-year-old child with no developed self-defense skills other than screaming and attacking, and no language to explain the situation and the choices in that situation.

Number 2 is linguistics therapy, that explores those hidden thoughts and emotions and rewrites them. Many years ago stress triggered my PTS and instead of being one person having different experiences, I became several people fighting for control and one was a murder. Not a fun experience. My therapist regressed me to the traumatized one-year-old and helped me rewrite the story created by the infant. Amazingly that snapped me back together and I was once again one person having different experiences. I am a firm believer in the power of linguistics therapy and rewriting our personal life stories.

Number three is Eastern philosophy. From this Eastern perspective, we intentionally learn virtues and intentionally practice and practice them until they become habits. That might be the key to freedom that you are looking for. If we do not use a spot in our brain, the cells will atrophy. The cells we do use grow. Imagine the intentional adult in control and freedom from the past.

I work on both rewriting the past and focusing on virtues. But I have the luxury of security that a younger person is not apt to have. It is insane to leave a person with intense insecurity and expect good results. It is a little crazy to feel safe when in fact one is not safe. :rofl: Much of my life was an exercise of insanity. Trying to make myself believe things were better than they were and functioning without the social support we need. Man, it is not easy being human. But we can use Virtue cards, and use them when we are not sure of what to do and in so doing make living with virtues a habit.

PS

Amity — Amity

post is a good one. When I came of age, women were expected to marry, have children, and stay home to be homemakers. I strongly value that and believe it is essential to civilization, but it is not 100% good. There were problems with that.

I think a good compromise would be returning to college, getting a degree, and then having a career. Individually we can not make a perfect world, but I believe together we can manifest a better reality.