NB: ... "yinyang" ... "atoms swirling swerving in the void" ... "E=mc²" ... "fermions & bosons", wtf are woo-ologists talking about? :sweat: — 180 Proof

This is the second time in my life that I've seen someone suggest materialists don't believe in energy lmao. How is that supposed to work? All materialists believe that matter moves around, right? And matter requires energy to move and interact and change directions and so forth, right?

I've never met a materialist who doesn't believe in energy. I have, however, met non-materialists who say materialists believe that. THAT'S what's truly mind-blowing. — flannel jesus

The earth, in a very real sense, is our mother. We are born from this mother, from Gaia; we are extensions of the earth and the cosmos of which it is a part. This means that our conceptualizing and our spirituality also extend from the spiritual dimension of the cosmos and the earth. — Thomas Berry

Thank you for the recommendation. I have added it to my list of books to consider buying in the near-future. I am a big fan of literature that seeks to fuse seemingly incompatible paradigms, into a new coherent understanding of the universe. — Bret Bernhoft

You're welcome Athena, but I think Tim Booth should get all the credit, for writing such good lyrics.
I found this wee website, with this introductory comment about the song. I don't think it's far away from our interpretations:

"This song is very much open to interpretation, and depending on they way you process the words, it could can be a warning against overindulgence, a look at surviving life on the edge, or a commentary on how you can always turn your life around. James vocalist Tim Booth, who wrote the lyrics, has explained that the character Daniel in the song saves a woman named Grace from drowning, and adds, "He doesn't realize that in saving her he's really saving himself." — universeness

Grace Definition & Meaning

Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › grace
grace implies a benign attitude and a willingness to grant favors or make concessions. by the grace of God. leniency implies lack of severity in punishing.
‎Synonyms of grace · ‎In a state of grace · ‎With good grace · ‎Grace period

Grace Definition & Meaning

Dictionary.com
https://www.dictionary.com › browse › grace
the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. · the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them. · a virtue or excellence ...

GRACE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org › dictionary › grace
the charming quality of being polite and pleasant, or a willingness to be fair and to forgive: She always handles her clients with tact and grace. grace noun ...

Grace - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

Vocabulary.com
https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › grace
The related word gracious originally meant "filled with God's favor or help." Grace was borrowed from Old French, from Latin gratia, "pleasing quality, favor, ...

What is Grace? Bible Meaning and Definition



BibleStudyTools.com
https://www.biblestudytools.com › dictionary › grace
An accurate, common definition describes grace as the unmerited favor of God toward man. In the Old Testament, the term that most often is translated "grace, " ... — several

It's not my freedom. It's the American conservatives'. Yes, they are intent on tearing down the federation. https://www.commoncause.org/resource/u-s-constitution-threatened-as-article-v-convention-movement-nears-success/ — Vera Mont

It's one of those songs that leave the interpretations of the lyrics to the listener but does set a definite base focus, as your words that I underlined above, indicate. My personal interpretation was a variation on yours. I took the song writers to be suggesting that the images they were invoking were accurate for many people but the fact they were 'getting away with it,' was 'messed up.' The writers could also have been admitting that this is what is 'messed up' about themselves and aspects of their own life experience, so far. — universeness

"Are you aching for the blade?" (are you violent, or attracted to violence or attracted to being the victim of violence?), "Are you aching for the grave?" (Do you have no fear of death, but in fact welcome it and don't give a flying f*** for anyone else life?) — universeness

"Daniels saving grace, she's out in deep water, hope he's a good swimmer"
Grace as a person Daniel is trying to save or grace imaged as a feminine aspect of Daniel, which is currently saving Daniel.
Whichever image you choose, that 'grace' is in trouble, as it is in deep water so, the writer hopes Daniel is a good swimmer and he and his 'grace' can mean, he can survive his own inner turmoil. — universeness

Oh, how familiar this line is for me. My youth spent doing exactly this, in the pubs and night clubs of Glasgow. I was also a good dancer and did very well, attracting female attention. My main two friends were also good looking guys and we did not often, go out to a night club without ending up going home with a girl. But, what did we achieve, absolutely nothing, shallow, hollow, but seemed fun at the time. Getting away with it all, but basically 'messed up.' That's why the way the lead singer Tim Booth emphasised and stretched the word 'Now,' a little, spoke so clearly to me, as pub and club escapism fun, is very much of the moment, and can seem very 'mis-spent,' when looking back. But, I do think that the reality is more nuanced, than such a conclusion would suggest. — universeness

See US gun lobby/ gun laws/ mass shootings. See Munroe Doctrine. See the unending wrangle over health insurance. The argument against doing what's good for most people is: "Freeeedomm!!!!"

And the US is a christian country, formed and constituted and ruled in the Abrahamic tradition of might makes right. Plato did not sign the Declaration of Independence. — Vera Mont

I am a true atheist (as well as humanist and capitalist); someone who does not believe in or give legitimacy to the traditional concepts of gods. At the same time, I am not a materialist. Because I observe there is a happy medium between these two absolute extremes. Somewhere "a something", which is closer to the highest truths, can be unearthed, studied, understood and applied. — Bret Bernhoft

If panspermia is prove true then perhaps we all come from Mars. I can confirm that you do have valuable points of view. I think it's just that many many words are very over-burdened. Many words are also considered as 'strictly belonging to,' a particular umbrella subject. Spirituality is one of those words that is traditionally associated with theism or theosophism. Even though the etymology of 'spirit' is, 'breath'.
To be spiritual originally meant, to be alive, to breath and be animated. It had nothing to do with ghosts or gods. — universeness

If you say so... But logos doesn't catch the bombs before they hit Baghdad! — Vera Mont

And that's why they value their individual freedom over any collective benefit. — Vera Mont

Abstract. Plato regards education as a means to achieve justice, both individual justice and social justice. According to Plato, individual justice can be obtained when each individual develops his or her ability to the fullest. In this sense, justice means excellence.

"Plato's philosophy of education: Its implication for current ... — Myungjoon Lee

That "rage" of the no-longer-privileged has been carefully nurtured by a succession of political and religious manipulators, continuously since 1865. — Vera Mont

Though many people take language for granted, the reality is that the words we use say as much about the way that concepts are arranged within our brains as they do about the things they actually denote; they assign meaning to phenomena by picking out those attributes that seem most worthy of meaning to us. Subsequently, the fact that different languages use words to assign meanings in different ways has led to a long-running debate about whether humans naturally conceptualize the world in culturally relative – rather than universal – ways. — Ben Taub

Your first quote above imo, should be used by Jamal to promote TPF.
Your second quote is is very well put, and makes me feel a little regretful that I just posted an attack on you personally :yikes: for your willingness to accept the use of the word 'sin ,' as an accusation against humans, ignorant or otherwise. :grimace::lol: /quote]— universeness

:lol: I am glad I read this. I hate it when I make an ass of myself and I have not always been as courageous and honest as you. I have been listening to a long explanation of better communication and you have practiced a principle of better communication.

As for not accepting my use of a word, I am constantly in a battle with Grammarly. It tries to correct me constantly and that feeds my concern that this technology is a huge evil! It can not think conceptually and when I want to speak of a concept like "industry" or "education" it wants me to use "the". Grammarly wants to turn all concepts into tangible nouns. The horror is, what that does to our thinking when we think everything is a tangible thing, rather than an intangible concept. :lol: I was once banned from a science forum for using the word "God". The moderator could not get past "God" being a being instead of a concept such as logos. It is not a false God until you add mythology to it. Whatever, a large part of our communication/thinking problem is our understanding of words and tendency to think everything is a tangible reality instead of a concept or metaphysical matter and Grammarly is part of the problem! — universeness

impersonal emotionalism, — Vera Mont

Why is it so important that we have the freedom to do as want?
— Athena
Because you are a or the major world power. — Vera Mont

Few if any! And that's the worst part of it. Just look at the history: People really wanted change after the Bush years and got Obama. Then other people really wanted change and we got Trump. — ssu

In many countries with stagnant political systems, when new parties finally come and win elections, do reforms and then years later people decide to vote for the old parties. Because many times the old parties still have competent politicians if the party isn't totally tarnished and politically dead. — ssu

Why do I hear marching music in my head when I read this? — Joshs

And democracies can make huge mistakes, don't think otherwise. But you can learn from mistakes. The best example is the UK and it's Brexit. Just ask the British how well that has gone or look how popular the UKIP is now there. Brexit was such a huge disaster for the UK that all the euro-sceptics in the EU countries have really toned down their criticism. — ssu

Putting flowers on a street unites nobody; — Vera Mont

Logic is great, but it doesn't replace self-awareness. — Vera Mont

More every day. There are lots of books out on alternative living; there are intentional communities based on a different principle; there is a tiny house movement, people learning to do things for themselves, eating local food, conserving water, pooling resources, teaching one another -- there's lots going on that you never hear about, because somebody doing something sensible is not as scary or tearjerky and therefore not as newsworthy as somebody deliberately running other people down with an SUV and buying fresh food at the farmers' market is not as emotionally cathartic as turning $15 worth of cut flowers into garbage on a sidewalk.*

(* It's a pet peeve of mine, all those bouquets, teddy bears and stupid mylar balloons piled up at the scene of every minor atrocity.) — Vera Mont

Yes, I agree that we see some things quite differently. I think you assign some value to that which may be labelled mysticism, the transcendent, the numinous, the esoteric, the 'spiritual' or perhaps even the the theosophistic. — universeness

I am sorry Athena but I could not disagree with you more, on this important point.
Ignorant people, defined as 'people who have learned very little in their life,' are people who are manipulated and abused by vile notions such as 'sin.' This word is commonly defined as:
"an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law"

For all atheists, there is no divine law. It's existence is an utter lie and the best evidence for that, is divine hiddenness. In comparison with the crimes of god, as described in the bible or the crimes of characters like Mohammed as described in the Quran, I am totally sinless. I am convinced I am sinless anyway, as it is not possible to perform an immoral act considered to be a transgression against non-existent divine law. — universeness

I try not to anthropomorphize nature in such ways, although I do fall into these old traps often.[/qhote] No, you do not. I am not saying what you think I have said. Thanks to Christianity everyone interprets what I say with the Christian belief in God and our power to control God with our pleas and efforts to please Him. You are interpreting what you think, not what I am saying. You put that false notion into my words, not me.
— universeness

Nature has no gender or sex. It is very important to understand the workings of our planet, for the sake of the survival of our species. We both agree on that I think. You just choose to invoke more 'esoteric,' anthropomorphised images to do so, compared to me.

Much of the world, including the US, has its head so far up its own ass in denial, you have to wonder whether the species is viable at all. — Vera Mont

So do I. But Americans simply have to understand that the present system can totally change, and actually quite quickly. The naive thing is to think that it's the Presidential election where you could have someone not being either a Democrat or a Republican that can change things. Nope, change starts from the communities and the states and also the federal level. And it's possible. — ssu

I think humans need to utterly reject that stupid term from theism. Sin does not exist!!!!!!!
If a person does not accept the existence of god(s) then it is not possible to go against it morally.
If humans break any aspect of secular moral code or human law then they have broken our laws or went against our moral codes, not non-existent gods. Godless humans cannot sin!
In my exchange with Vera Mont regarding the love label, it becomes clear that it's an over-burdened label. I think you have acted often, in support of the well-being of strangers and that shows that you have a great capacity for compassion towards your fellow human beings. You should be awarded the NCA (if it existed,) in my opinion. — universeness

What I think would clear up a lot would be that the duopoly of the two parties would be finally broken. But Americans simply believe in the impossibility of the "third party" and that I think is the biggest problem. Easiest way would be if both the Dems and GOP would separate into different parties themselves. — ssu

The Australian electoral system comprises the laws and processes used for the election of members of the Australian Parliament and is governed primarily by the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918. The system presently has a number of distinctive features including compulsory enrolment; compulsory voting; majority-preferential instant-runoff voting in single-member seats to elect the lower house, the House of Representatives; and the use of the single transferable vote proportional representation system to elect the upper house, the Senate.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-member_district — Wikipedia

Ranked-choice voting in the United States

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ranked-choice_votin...
Ranked-choice voting (RCV) can refer to one of several ranked voting methods used in some cities and states in the United States. The term is not strictly ...
‎Use at state and federal levels · ‎Use at local levels · ‎California · ‎Massachusetts — wikipedia

That's a longish stride from moral and immoral speech. I was there when it was considered highly immoral to mention homosexuality and perfectly acceptable to feature blackface in a performance. Morality is as suspect in my book as brotherly love. But I think we can agree on a standard of public discourse - so long as everyone has an equal share in decisions-making. — Vera Mont

In one of Kurt Vonnegot's novels, that I don't have time to look up right now, he says "What the world needs in not more love but more common decency." — Vera Mont

So, you agree then that getting completely rid of the house of lords would be a good first step in starting to improve the way UK politics works?
— universeness
My point is that WHEN you give any stakeholder status in the upper house, be it as now the remnants of the aristocracy and retired politicians, or in your proposal "important stakeholders", once decided, the elected stakeholders will fight for their right to have their position in the house. Even if they aren't important anymore. They will be against change as the aristocracy has been in reality. Hence you need elections on just who are stakeholders. And what are "important stakeholders". For starters. — ssu

Why do you choose to disconnect, empathy, and altruism as facets of love. — universeness

I don't propose to answer for Athena, but for myself: because "love" is such a loaded, booby-trapped word. It evokes sentimentality, hypocrisy, Christian doctrine and a whole a passel of emotional stuff with which I don't want to be lumbered. I have compassion for people I find quite unpalatable and for animals I would never want to encounter in the wild. That empathy, or sense of rightness or whatever it is is quite distinct from my personal relationships in which affection plays a major part. Also, I consider some constraints on my freedom, some obligations of time an effort, as a civic duty: the price of living in a society that affords me protection and support. — Vera Mont

???? So why do you choose to help strangers who seem unable to help themselves? — universeness

This is a really promising group as well guys:
Citizens Network
Maybe they would particularly help support the work you do Athena.
This is their North American sub-group:
Citizens Network, North America — universeness

recently became a member of a UK group called 'Compass,' who describe themselves as politically progressive and seek common ground/cause, regardless of which current political party you support.
I joined them because of their strong stance and efforts in support of UBI (and their stance on many other issues). I thought you both might find the following 'New Settlement,' campaign, hopeful, in the sense that, 'there are groups out there,' who imo, are trying to make life for the average human, a better experience. What do you think of: — universeness

I generally agree with your sentiment there Athena, especially when talking about the relationship with medicine and death. My personal opinion on the matter is that death has become too medicalised, and this striving of society towards prolonging life at all costs is generally detrimental to those involved. Planning death, in my opinion, does not necessarily mean shortening life, but it does allow people to create their own narrative around death, and have more autonomy over how they die. — AlexMcGram

At least the American military boot industry is thriving! Unfortunately, 'we' have already supplied a great many weapons to the chosen of that other god, A---h, whose will runs contrary, while the blessed of Mao can make their own. — Vera Mont

Nor has the disparity of wealth. I wonder whether there's a connection. Is it really because a cycle rickshaw operator has six kids to feed that the rivers are poisoned? And do those six kids really use up twice as much of the world's resources as three of Walton's? Is it the extra child soldiers and slaves
The trafficking of children for domestic labor in the U.S. is an extension of an illegal practice in Africa. Families send their daughters to work for money and the opportunity to escape a dead-end life.
that contribute more to glaciers melting, or the trafficking of vast amounts of goods to well-off consumers?
Of the ten biggest strip mines in South and Central America, three are owned by South American interests; the rest belong to investors from Canada, the US, UK, Mexico and Australia. Beef farming is a great investment for North Americans: apparently, there is still 'undeveloped' land in Paraguay, and it won't be wasted on local people eating well. https://www.gatewaytosouthamerica-newsblog.com/cattle-ranching-in-paraguay-an-investors-perspective/ — Vera Mont

So, don't make that trade. We don't really need oil from Iraq. How many lives has that little transaction cost, so far? How much in money and resources? (That's a bare outline, with no mention of what's been going on behind the arras.)

But Chinese women and Indian children and African men work twice as hard for a tenth of the pay, and their governments, sufficiently lubricated with bribes, are not too fussy about what you spill on the way out. So all the garden gnomes come from China and the American Guild of Gnome Crafters is sleeping on the street. — Vera Mont