All this is tied to capitalism and its own relentless internal logic. I do admire your perseverance and consistency, even as believe you misattribute the cause. — Vera Mont

:chin: What do you mean misattribute the cause?

:lol: I do at times wonder about my thoughts looping back to a beginning point again and again. This has been a super good morning with posts that push me to learn more. I think the subject of money is way different from the discussion I want to have, but I can also see the connection.

Money and time are relatively new concepts that rule our lives and such concepts rule our lives and shape our culture even though we understand very little about the concepts and how much power, like a god, they have over our lives. Today I learned of the goddesses Nisaba and Inanna evolving out of agrarian goddesses who in the beginning caused wheat to grow, and then a temple was built to hold the wheat and priests to distribute it. Especial Nisaba was credited with giving us writing and this system of growing wheat, storing it, and distributing it required record keeping, some math, and some writing. This morning could not have been better as I learn of the evolution of a monetary system and its connection to gods and goddesses, which is a cultural/spiritual matter.

Not when needing to tribe with the tribe that is far away and has rocks that we want. To make that trade we need a concept of money. — Athena

So, don't make that trade. We don't really need oil from Iraq. How many lives has that little transaction cost, so far? How much in money and resources? (That's a bare outline, with no mention of what's been going on behind the arras.)

But Chinese women and Indian children and African men work twice as hard for a tenth of the pay, and their governments, sufficiently lubricated with bribes, are not too fussy about what you spill on the way out. So all the garden gnomes come from China and the American Guild of Gnome Crafters is sleeping on the street.

Poor deluded them! Wait till they're offered only $100 per kidney. — Vera Mont

Well, that is a lot of money in some places, especially when there are immediate needs that can not be met without money. There was a time when I risked going into shock by wearing extra heavy clothing so I would weigh enough to "donate" plasma for a few bucks. I developed a sense of black humor during those hard times.

Black humor-a form of humor that regards human suffering as absurd rather than pitiable, or that considers human existence as ironic and pointless but somehow comic.

Balderdash! The overpopulation could easily be remedied - could have been, for decades now - if there wasn't more profit in keeping them barefoot and pregnant and dependent on the bosses. — Vera Mont

No balderdash. It doesn't matter what was possible many years ago, because the subject is present reality. The growing human population is destroying the planet no matter if this explosion of humanity is in a third country or a modern technological one. Yes, we should have put the brakes on many years, but we didn't, and like a car going 60 miles an hour can not immediately stop, neither can the momentum of population growth be immediately stopped. The ancients saw this day coming. If we think of life as fire, we see this fire will consume the earth, as the exponential growth of the human population, increased consumption of resources, and increased pollution destroy our planet and it could be too late to stop the destruction. At no other time in the history of our planet has the human problem been as bad as it is today.

hey give the foreign 'investors' free rein to plunder their nations' resources and the industrialists supply them weapons to keep the peons in check. — Vera Mont

Oh yeah, I know that story! I think the best way to understand it is through geologists.

Yipes! I am late. Sorry I must run!

But Chinese women and Indian children and African men work twice as hard for a tenth of the pay, and their governments, sufficiently lubricated with bribes, are not too fussy about what you spill on the way out. So all the garden gnomes come from China and the American Guild of Gnome Crafters is sleeping on the street

Alas, you are conflating the concept of money (an imaginary way of equating the relative value of various goods and services) with capitalism and multinationals/globalism.

Alas, you are conflating the concept of money (an imaginary way of equating the relative value of various goods and services) with capitalism and multinationals/globalism. — LuckyR

No, I was replying to Athena on the benefits of capitalism. Of course, I doubt capitalism could operate without money, but capitalism is not a direct or inevitable product of money. In theory, money could have been restricted to paying the armies to plunder other peoples.

The growing human population is destroying the planet no matter if this explosion of humanity is in a third country or a modern technological one — Athena

Except that the poor people, in either place, have a whole lot less reproductive choice than the rich ones. However, a rise in the standard of living for poor people, which invariably leads to a decline in the birth rate (the more babies survive, and the more choice women have, the fewer babies - works every time) But that's not going to happen. The growing wealth * of the already-too-rich gathering more wealth from the third countries to amass in the first ones by modern technological methods will continue to guarantee that the poor just keep getting poorer.

* If you ignore everything else, just look at this article.

At no other time in the history of our planet has the human problem been as bad as it is today. — Athena

Nor has the disparity of wealth. I wonder whether there's a connection. Is it really because a cycle rickshaw operator has six kids to feed that the rivers are poisoned? And do those six kids really use up twice as much of the world's resources as three of Walton's? Is it the extra child soldiers and slaves

The trafficking of children for domestic labor in the U.S. is an extension of an illegal practice in Africa. Families send their daughters to work for money and the opportunity to escape a dead-end life.

that contribute more to glaciers melting, or the trafficking of vast amounts of goods to well-off consumers?
Of the ten biggest strip mines in South and Central America, three are owned by South American interests; the rest belong to investors from Canada, the US, UK, Mexico and Australia. Beef farming is a great investment for North Americans: apparently, there is still 'undeveloped' land in Paraguay, and it won't be wasted on local people eating well. https://www.gatewaytosouthamerica-newsblog.com/cattle-ranching-in-paraguay-an-investors-perspective/

So, don't make that trade. We don't really need oil from Iraq. How many lives has that little transaction cost, so far? How much in money and resources? (That's a bare outline, with no mention of what's been going on behind the arras.)

But Chinese women and Indian children and African men work twice as hard for a tenth of the pay, and their governments, sufficiently lubricated with bribes, are not too fussy about what you spill on the way out. So all the garden gnomes come from China and the American Guild of Gnome Crafters is sleeping on the street. — Vera Mont

Glad you got past my word mistake. That was a dumb mistake. :roll:

I am also glad you seem to know more about the trade problem than most. The reason geologists know a lot about the problem is they are in those countries finding the resources and estimating how much is available so a price for removing them can be established. They study geology because it is interesting to them, and then they get jobs that seem interesting and after they are caught in the web, they gain an understanding of the problems such as the ones you talk about and their conscience begins to eat them up.

I don't think there is anyone to blame for our mass ignorance but if you want to be part of the cure, please spread the knowledge. In the1920s the price of gas was skyrocketing and this was an economic problem. A small article in the back pages of a newspaper warned, "Given our know oil supply and rate of consumption, we are headed for economic trouble and possibly war". The stock market crashed and the world went to war. We are totally ignorant of why this happened.

What can be done about that ignorance? Should someone be held responsible for our mass ignorance? Democrats starting with President Carter have talked about the resource/consumption problem while the oil companies lied to us and especially Republican leaders tell us the lies and maintain the ignorance. What can we do about this?

While the majority in the US seems to disapprove of :gasp: socialism and government subsidizing poorly paid workers but are in favor of subsidizing Industry and keeping the product cheap by keeping labor cheap, we do benefit from cheap labor. We buy the cheap products made by slave labor and put our own Industry out of business. This is how economies have grown. The condition of the working class in Britain was so bad the majority of military-age males were unfit for the military. When Industry was asked to pay higher wages, it argued they could not compete in world markets if they paid the labor more. This began Britians subsiding the poor.

Germany was far ahead of the rest of us with education for technology for everyone, a national pension plan, worker's compensation, and national health insurance. Oil is essential to national defense and Industrial economies and the competition for control of world resources is greater than it has ever been with modern warfare being far more destructive than it was during WWII. What should be done about this?

Nor has the disparity of wealth. I wonder whether there's a connection. Is it really because a cycle rickshaw operator has six kids to feed that the rivers are poisoned? And do those six kids really use up twice as much of the world's resources as three of Walton's? Is it the extra child soldiers and slaves
The trafficking of children for domestic labor in the U.S. is an extension of an illegal practice in Africa. Families send their daughters to work for money and the opportunity to escape a dead-end life.
that contribute more to glaciers melting, or the trafficking of vast amounts of goods to well-off consumers?
Of the ten biggest strip mines in South and Central America, three are owned by South American interests; the rest belong to investors from Canada, the US, UK, Mexico and Australia. Beef farming is a great investment for North Americans: apparently, there is still 'undeveloped' land in Paraguay, and it won't be wasted on local people eating well. https://www.gatewaytosouthamerica-newsblog.com/cattle-ranching-in-paraguay-an-investors-perspective/ — Vera Mont

Should we talk about education and democracy? How about the good of Christianity? We all know God has favorite people and we are them. What is your problem with this reality? God blesses us because we please him, and it is not our fault the rest of the world is not as pleasing to God. And by gosh, we need to have the military weapons and a base on the moon, so we can do the will the God, and prevent the evil enemies who are jealous of us, from doing anything that might be against the will of God. :wink:

And by gosh, we need to have the military weapons and a base on the moon, so we can do the will the God, and prevent the evil enemies who are jealous of us, from doing anything that might be against the will of God. — Athena

At least the American military boot industry is thriving! Unfortunately, 'we' have already supplied a great many weapons to the chosen of that other god, A---h, whose will runs contrary, while the blessed of Mao can make their own.

At least the American military boot industry is thriving! Unfortunately, 'we' have already supplied a great many weapons to the chosen of that other god, A---h, whose will runs contrary, while the blessed of Mao can make their own. — Vera Mont

Perhaps the subject of gods and war would be interesting. I think if we look at all the religions we can see why an education limited to studying one holy book just is not enough. We are being bombard now with the wrongs of our Christian nation and appalling human abuses, and some Muslim countries also have a bad record. I don't know if there ever was a country that could not be found quilty of human violations?

I know such things are tied to culture and that cultures are learned. I would like to know what should people learn and how should that be taught?

I know such things are tied to culture and that cultures are learned. I would like to know what should people learn and how should that be taught? — Athena

Their own language and at least one other, including grammar and literature.
Arithmetic > mathematics, as far as their ability takes each student.
Science, from direct observation in nature, through general science to the separate disciplines.
World history - not starting from their own nations' glorious past, but from the Paleolithic > anthropology > sociology > world cultures > introduction to the food, social customs, art and music of cultures being studied.
Geography (criminally neglected)
Philosophy (introduction to the major schools and names > in depth; comparative religion. Discussion of applied ethics in each school of thought.
Health - nutrition, hygiene, sexuality/reproduction (and how not to), basic epidemiology and immunology.
Civics, elementary art and music - later to be optional subjects.
Hands-on:
horticulture, starting with a schoolyard garden in Gr 1; basic drafting and construction methods - as an adjunct to math; food preparation and preserving; animal husbandry; road safety, swimming and first aid.

From six to eight years old, I'd have them in open classrooms, divided into study groups of c. 6 students, each group representing the full range of age, academic ability and emotional maturity, and assign lots of group projects, so that they can learn understanding, teamwork, tolerance, self-discipline and the joy of helping one another (iow, socialization) No grades; at the conclusion of each module or project, a group discussion with the teacher presiding. Let them assess the results, divulge what was difficult for them, air any grievances an submit to peer review.

From nine to twelve, classes of 20-25 at individual desks, and a more structured schedule. At this stage, some form of testing should be introduced to establish standards, make sure the foundations are solid and spot problem areas in the instruction.

From thirteen to sixteen (when they're too antsy to sit still and pay attention anyway), I'd take them right out of the classroom and have small groups again engaged in team projects - this time, out in the community - under the guidance of one knowledgeable adult for every five or six students - it wouldn't need to be a certified teacher. Students should be in charge as much as possible. (This is a controversial and possibly contentious issue, but I suggest separating boys and girls for this phase, to minimize preening, posturing and status rivalry.) Encourage discussion and debate before and after each project, not during.
These projects should include some location work, taking the students away from home and letting them practice life skills in a camp-like setting. Leisure hours would feature cookouts, theatrical and musical performance, sports and games, reading, guest speakers and discussion.
At sixteen, bring them back into the classroom and get down to the hard subjects. Now they understand why maths and geometry, how genetics work in evolution, how physics and chemistry operate in the real world. Plus, they're physically fit, emotionally mature and have a clear understanding of their own aptitudes and limitations.

@Vera Mont
@Athena
I recently became a member of a UK group called 'Compass,' who describe themselves as politically progressive and seek common ground/cause, regardless of which current political party you support.
I joined them because of their strong stance and efforts in support of UBI (and their stance on many other issues). I thought you both might find the following 'New Settlement,' campaign, hopeful, in the sense that, 'there are groups out there,' who imo, are trying to make life for the average human, a better experience. What do you think of:

"You may have seen that Compass is working on its next big project that we are calling The New Settlement.
Win as One is how we secure power, the New Settlement is why we want to.
The 20th Century saw the Post-War Settlement and Fordism, and then its successor; neoliberalism. We are watching this latest system break down before our eyes.
So what comes next? Given the perma-crisis world we live in, if it's not egalitarian, green and democratic it will be authoritarian.
The idea of this project is to lay out the corners of the jigsaw of the society we want to create and the key big drivers to get us there.
The goal is to produce a landmark publication in the early spring of 2024 that speaks convincingly and seductively of a better society that really chimes with people.
As always, our members are at the heart of this project.
Member-led working groups have started producing their own documents to contribute to the final paper. These groups are:

1. Examples of a good society in practice now?
2. Examples of new democracy in practice now?
3. New economy examples?
4. Cross-cutting themes"

Do you think this is just old rehashed, ineffective, paper exercises or do you see real value in such projects?

Publications and documents are good (Well, I can hardly say otherwise, can I?) but living is even better. Your group can popularize the projects already in effect. And encourage people to start more.
Hurray!
https://ecovillage.org/region/gen-europe/ecovillage-projects/
https://afairersociety.com/co-op-housing-5-uk-examples/
https://www.thenews.coop/156844/sector/housing/housing-and-climate-change-the-co-ops-pioneering-green-solutions/

recently became a member of a UK group called 'Compass,' who describe themselves as politically progressive and seek common ground/cause, regardless of which current political party you support.
I joined them because of their strong stance and efforts in support of UBI (and their stance on many other issues). I thought you both might find the following 'New Settlement,' campaign, hopeful, in the sense that, 'there are groups out there,' who imo, are trying to make life for the average human, a better experience. What do you think of: — universeness

That information goes with the book "The Necessary Revolution- How Individuals and Organizations Are Working Together to Create a Sustainable World." By Peter Senge, Bryan Smith, Nina Kruschwita, Joe Laur, Sara Schley.

In that book, there is an explanation that goes well with an understanding of the Democratic Model for Industry. Include everyone in the task of solving problems. This has made the impossible possible because some Industries have made big promises such as conserving water, that they had no idea how they would keep. By turning the problem over to everyone the company got the benefit of group consciousness, the very thing that makes Democracy better than authoritarian Nations. Well, it helps to have education for Democracy to make it work the way it should.

Knowing what can be done, such as organizing for world war one by relying on schools to teach students necessary technological skills for the first time in our history, and a frame of mind the Spartans would admire, I totally believe we can turn things around. But we need respected leaders and respected reporters who can get us working together. Having media that caters to popular opinion and sensationalism, is a disaster and I don't think those problems will change without education for democracy and being united with shared values.

Having the actual housing so people can experience that housing and see how it is working, is more powerful than just words, so kudos for that advancement. I now wonder if something like that is happening in my community. Participating with others in coming up with solutions would be better than sitting alone at home wringing my hands and feeling totally powerless.

I now wonder if something like that is happening in my community. Participating with others in coming up with solutions would be better than sitting alone at home wringing my hands and feeling totally powerless. — Athena

Absafragginlootly!

Interesting links Vera, cheers!

@Vera Mont
@Athena
This is a really promising group as well guys:
Citizens Network
Maybe they would particularly help support the work you do Athena.
This is their North American sub-group:
Citizens Network, North America

Thanks, I didn't know about this. So many good people still fighting the good fight!

Yep and all power to them!!!!

This is a really promising group as well guys:
Citizens Network
Maybe they would particularly help support the work you do Athena.
This is their North American sub-group:
Citizens Network, North America — universeness

Thank you universes. The link seems concerned with love and I am not into love but you did inspire me to Google for an organization that is about civics education. I signed up for their newsletter. It is hard for me to stay focused but I think what concerns me most is protecting our democracy with education.

https://www.civiced.org/

The link seems concerned with love and I am not into love — Athena

???? So why do you choose to help strangers who seem unable to help themselves?

but you did inspire me to Google for an organization that is about civics education. I signed up for their newsletter. — Athena

Good stuff.

However, a rise in the standard of living for poor people, which invariably leads to a decline in the birth rate (the more babies survive, and the more choice women have, the fewer babies - works every time) But that's not going to happen. — Vera Mont

Why not?

It has happened. That it has happened in India and in China are really game changers, because we are talking about a huge segment of World population with the two. We might see in our lifetime peak human population.

. The growing wealth * of the already-too-rich gathering more wealth from the third countries to amass in the first ones by modern technological methods will continue to guarantee that the poor just keep getting poorer. — Vera Mont

And for this you refer to the opening a new bank vault for the rich three years ago?

Sorry, but the poorest haven't gotten poorer.

It has happened. — ssu

Too little, too late; running out of water.

Sorry, but the poorest haven't gotten poorer. — ssu

No, they live on a princely $2.15 a day, instead of $1.90. Terrific!

Although hard to track, the number of homeless people increases each year, with few countries being an exception to that. The United Nations has documented that there are around 1.6 billion people residing in poor housing worldwide, with around 15 million being forcibly evicted each year.

And for this you refer to the opening a new bank vault for the rich three years ago? — ssu

Yes, in the context of possible redistribution. The stuff in there isn't paying anyone's rent or medical bills, ever. The more wealth - which has been made out of natural resources by human labour - goes in there, and into other such vaults

Safe-deposit boxes hidden in subterranean bank vaults are no longer just for European spy movies. Their demand is steadily increasing among the super-rich, according to Bloomberg. Billionaires and millionaires fear recession and climate change and just want some security for their cash, art, and jewels –– security that can cost as much as a mansion.

, as well as safe hidy-holes for their owners

Though the concept of a luxury underground bunker designed to help you survive a global disaster in style may seem utterly dystopian, the Swiss company Oppidum is quickly turning fantasy into reality.

is out of circulation; not paying wages, not paying tax with which governments might alleviate the burden of the working poor and the sinking middle class, reduce poverty and crime, repair infrastructure; and for damn sure not helping to avert or mitigate any of the natural disasters that continue to render more poor (even not, by definition, in extreme poverty) people homeless and destitute, every year.

If you want to pretend that capitalism makes everything peachier and keener for everybody all the time, no amount of ground-level reality will convince you otherwise, until you are personally affected. That's a popular stance. And that is the reason we're in this mess.

No, they live on a princely $2.15 a day, instead of $1.90. Terrific! — Vera Mont

When you widen the viewpoint to let's say 50 years (1970's to 2020's) or more, the changes have been dramatic. Earlier there were widespread famine in Asia, which isn't anymore. Both China and India have made quite a dramatic change:

First the sign of absolute povetry and very fragile economies: people killed in famines


Then about transition that has happened now. For example India has had a rapid it's GDP per capita in ten years or so:



But someone might argue that the money has all gone to the rich. No, it hasn't. It has had an impact in India on the number of poor people falling:


In China absolute povetry has decline even more:


Half a billion of Chinese not being on the verge of famine and in absolute povetry is something dramatic that shouldn't be just ignored. And if over half of the India people were in absolute povetry in 1981, that being now just one tenth is a huge improvement too.

When you widen the viewpoint to let's say 50 years (1970's to 2020's) or more, the changes have been dramatic. — ssu

Yes, the post WWII to the Reagan/Thatcher Axis, were a period of liberalism, tolerance, and broadening of vision. In the new Conservative dark age, it's closing in again.
Your notion of poverty is different from mine.

Yes, the post WWII to the Reagan/Thatcher Axis, were a period of liberalism, tolerance, and broadening of vision. In the new Conservative dark age, it's closing in again.
Your notion of poverty is different from mine. — Vera Mont

Post-WWII history in China was a bit different to Western history.

And you seem to look at the West, which in fact doesn't have the poorest people. But this is quite usual. As the West and especially the US hasn't seen a dramatic change in prosperity and in with many indicators Americans are worse off than before, many think that the World has to be too worse off. Because how could have a story that is something else?

Yet all those manufacturing jobs that did leave the West did have an impact in Asia. And many Asian countries did improve their prosperity in the last 50 years. These countries aren't just helpless pawns of the US and the West.

The last 30 years have seen dramatic reductions in global poverty, spurred by strong catch-up growth in developing countries, especially in Asia. By 2015, some 729 million people, 10% of the population, lived under the $1.90 a day poverty line, greatly exceeding the Millennium Development Goal target of halving poverty. From 2012 to 2013, at the peak of global poverty reduction, the global poverty headcount fell by 130 million poor people.

This success story was dominated by China and India. In December 2020, China declared it had eliminated extreme poverty completely. India represents a more recent success story.

That's the positive development, which typically isn't told as it's trendy to be doom-and-gloom and against the current system. Anything positive seems like naive.

Then there are the real problems. As I've stated in another thread, the development in the Sahel looks very bad. We are not only talking about one country, like Somalia, but a whole region, which indeed can see large scale famine and collapse of societies. But to talk only about that and not to acknowledge what positive developments have happened is simply biased. And credit should be given to the countries that have indeed done a remarkable changes in fighting poverty and have improved their economies.

Your notion of poverty is different from mine. — Vera Mont

And what is so wrong to start with the most poorest people in the World?

The evidence of improvements in the charts you posted are pathetic, in comparison with what should be happening globally. Our planet and the majority of our species, still suffer severely, from the wealth and power imbalances caused by global plutocratic elites? Are you seriously trying to claim that the improvements, (since we came out of the wilds,) made in the number of individuals globally, who are in abject poverty, is down to the trickle down crumbs that fall from the capitalist table, rather than from the social and political efforts made by humanists/socialist movements world wide?
Any improvements made, come from the pressure applied to the elites, from local/national/international and global humanism/socialism.
The following WHO information is a small indication of how much work still has to be done:
In 2020 an estimated 5 million children under the age of 5 years died, mostly from preventable and treatable causes. Approximately half of those deaths, 2.4 million, occurred among newborns (in the first 28 days of life).
While the global under-5 mortality rate (U5MR) fell to 37 deaths per 1000 live births in 2020, children in sub-Saharan continued to have the highest rates of mortality in the world at 74 deaths per 1000 live births- 14 times higher than the risk for children in Europe and North America.
The leading causes of death in children under 5 years are preterm birth complications, birth asphyxia/trauma, pneumonia, diarrhoea and malaria, all of which can be prevented or treated with access to affordable interventions in health and sanitation.

Things are getting better for many poor people in the world, that is true, but the reasons have almost f*** all to do with the actions of the rich, and have a lot more to do with the political pressure that comes via the utter revulsion felt by the more and more informed people amongst our species, regarding 'what is really going on.' The actions, lifestyle, imbalance and narcissism of the global elites are being exposed more and more. You need to be clear on what you are suggesting has caused the improvements you cite.

Sadly, despite the small improvements you cite, I think words like the ones in the song below are still horrendously true about the world we live in, do you agree?



Lyrics:
Come and join the score (it's a) very holy chore
(You must) Fight for freedom, Liberty (you must)
Fight for old men just like me
Now i'm not in the mood (to fight)
But I'll give you clothes and food (Alright you see)
Someone else is making more than me
And that can be, an economic policy

Ain't it funny, ain't it shame
While the fat man is snoring
You can die for his games (economy)
Ain't it funny, ain't it a joke
As you die for the fat man
He is lifting your joke

See I have no arm (for giving)
See I have no legs (to run away)
See I have no nose, no eyes
Don't hear no lies, I'm monkey wise
Guess I got my gun (You didn't run?)
Back in '41 (Where are you now?)
Now I wish I could just swim in the sun
Because whatever I won, it wasn't much fun at all

Ain't it funny, ain't it shame
While the fat man is snoring
You can die for his games (economy)
Ain't it funny, ain't it a joke
As you die for the fat man
He is lifting your joke

Your country needs you today
Your country needs you to die

And you seem to look at the West, which in fact doesn't have the poorest people. — ssu

I never claimed that the west had the poorest people; I said that making the rich even more rich keeps making the not-rich even less rich. As for the poorest people in China, South America and Africa, they, too are made poorer through the enrichment of the rich. In many, though not all, cases it is the western capitalist investment that co-opts their governments and institutions, and robs entire nations of their resources, their heritage, their autonomy and their health.

And what is so wrong to start with the most poorest people in the World? — ssu

The fact that you want to "start" at the finish line; the fact that there are still millions of "most poorest" people, after all the decades you claim for improvement; the fact that you arrogate to yourself the power of treating millions of people like a project, instead of giving them back their lands and freedom to live as they choose.
The initial cause of their poverty: Imperialism. It hasn't gone away; it's just wearing $US instead of sovereigns and doubloons - it's still looting, with local cat's paws rather than directly; arming the little local oppressors in their great big imperialist pockets.

The evidence of improvements in the charts you posted are pathetic — universeness

Really, is it a pathetic improvement that there hasn't been a famine in China in the last 50 years, but before that there indeed were? (Those who don't know, the largest famine that killed the most people happened in China after WW2) I think the first thing is when poverty is so bad that the survival of people is threatened. Only then comes poverty that excludes people from the "normal" society.

Any improvements made, come from the pressure applied to the elites, from local/national/international and global humanism/socialism. — universeness

Well, those leaders in China still think of themselves as devoted Marxists. When talking of China and India, you aren't talking about the West. Yet there in those two countries the biggest changes have happened.

The following WHO information is a small indication of how much work still has to be done: — universeness

That work has to be done cannot refute the fact that things also have improved. And I myself have already stated that there looms big dangers especially in the Sahel region, but also in the Sub-Saharan Africa in general.

Sadly, despite the small improvements you cite — universeness

You call a billion people going out of absolute poverty a "small improvement"?

I never claimed that the west had the poorest people; I said that making the rich even more rich keeps making the not-rich even less rich. — Vera Mont

Why there a persistent large class of poor people is a complex issue. In poor countries it usually starts from things like the vast majority of people that do work their entire lives don't have access to any kind of reasonable debt, like having a decent mortgage that people in the West enjoy. When jobs available to the vast majority of people covers only the basics (food, living which is usually a rental flat), people cannot get richer through work. Furthermore, the real difficulty is to get from subsistence farming to modern "capitalist" farming: a subsistence farmer has typically been dirt poor in every society, in the East or in the West.

In many, though not all, cases it is the western capitalist investment that co-opts their governments and institutions, and robs entire nations of their resources, their heritage, their autonomy and their health. — Vera Mont

Yet look at the countries that have made it. South Korea, Taiwan, China, Malesia etc. They were drastically poorer earlier, but somehow haven't been robbed by the West. Weak countries are exploited, that is true.

Really, is it a pathetic improvement that there hasn't been a famine in China in the last 50 years, but before that there indeed were? — ssu

Coulda swore that was down to communist central planning and rigid birth control.

Well, those leaders in China still think of themselves as devoted Marxists. — ssu

Pfth!

Why there a persistent large class of poor people is a complex issue. — ssu

Nothing complex about. Somebody with a big gun comes along, burns their homes, orders them off their land and into the mines, or factories, or cane or cotton or coffee plantations - whatever makes the rich even richer.