As a 20+ I remember being in a Glasgow pub with my father.
He was not a 'hardman' himself, but he knew a few.
There was a well known Glasgow gangster in the pub, holding court with other gangsters, when I overheard him say 'I'll tell yous what a hardman is, it's just some f***er with f*** all left to lose.'
I remember a flash of Kirk Douglas playing Spartacus, flashed through my mind, saying the line 'a slave does not fear death, death is the only freedom a slave knows about.'
Over time I have thought a lot about that.
What causes humans to fight and kill each other rather than work with each other in common cause?
I know each of you could give me a long list of reasons.
I think this most important of issues has yet to be fully answered.
Is 'hell' really 'other people?'
Is it true that we love and need company but we also need solipsism to be true, but not always.
You are both intelligent people. Can intelligent people make a global human civilisation that works, or is the 'hell is other people,' concept just too strong in humans?
I simply believe that we can do better than we ever have in the past!
I don't really care how we achieve it. I have already offered my own personal top 5 horrors we need to make benign. We have spent too long in tribes, city states, nations, allies and axis, etc, at war, recovering from war and preparing for the next war. We must find ways to do better. We can talk about the past and the reasons why we are where we are now, forever.
Can we not focus on how we think we can make a better world? — universeness

I love what you said and especially Spartacus's quote. As old age overtakes my youth, I am responding from a different perspective as I say, I can understand death as the only freedom.

I love that your question screams at me why I keep writing about the US being what it defended its democracy against. We did not have maintain war time contracts and a large standing army, nor invest in weapons that can do more damage is a few hours than we could have done months of war. As Rome came to depend on its military force leading to its military leaders taking control of Rome, so it is for the Military-Industrial Complex of WWII Germany and the US today. What the US is today, is not what it was before WWII.

Not until Eisenhower and the Korean War did the US become the Military-Industrial Complex we are today and this makes it much more like that we will engage in war than was so before WWII. It took a year to mobilize for the WWI and WWII. Today we can fully be engaged in war within hours and do more damage than we could do in several months. Like Rome it is no longer the people who are in control but the Beast that feeds off us.

I had hoped the Internet and citizens around the world would take this power away from their governments, and with the power of the people they would manifest world peace. I still hold onto this hope although I don't see this happening yet. Democracy leads to peace, not religion, and not a Military-industrial complex. We need to return to family order and end this military order. The people of the world need to unite against the Beasts that feed off of us.

No, I don't recall saying that. I said my own respect and desire for facts does not make me fascist.
Bureaucratic organizations of some kind are unavoidable in dealing with the complex needs and interactions of a large, diverse population, especially in times of rapidly developing technological and economic change. I have no objection to a robust, competent civil service - in fact, I believe they are far more stable than elected government administrations, and can do more - allowed to operate according to their mandate - to keep politicians honest than politicians ever do one another. — Vera Mont

Communism, socialism, and laissez-faire capitalism are eccomic systems, not politic opposites.
The opposite of democracy is autocracy and you are speaking in favor of autocracy. Opposition to autocracy includes keeping elected people honest and focused on the well fair of all, versus an oligarchy- rule by a handful of powerful people who are ruling to feather their own nest.

Autocracy is efficient. Democracy is not!

Humans have had wars throughout their existence; as civilizations grew bigger and more powerful, the wars grew bigger, more deadly and more frequent. They were not caused by bureaucracy or technology; they did not cause either of those things; they have always co-existed within civilization. Wars have been waged with rocks, thrown sticks, fire and long sharp knives, projectile balls and pointy things, things that go bang and things that go thud, things that poison people and sever limb from limb.
Three events changed the attitude the of US conservatives in the wake of WWII: they came out of it the overall winner, the country that scored most points and suffered least loss; they developed the atomic bomb which gave their hawks a sense of invincibility, and the Russian 'communist' state rose up as a major contender for world domination, which threw those same hawks into a state of demented paranoia.

I need to begin by saying I strongly disagree with your belief that there is no difference between the bureaucratic structure of the past and today's Military-Industrial Complex. There is no way the bureaucratic order of the past could maintain the complex governments we have today.

I think we need to distinguish the difference between haphazard wars and a Military Industrial Complex.
Sparta lived for war and this led to the inability to reproduce enough citizens to defend Sparta and Sparta died. We might thrill at learning of Sparta's military achievements, but it is Athens that originated Western civilization, not Sparta. Please give that a moment of thought.

The US was the Athens of the modern world with education modeled after Athens education. Germany was the Sparta of the modern world. Thanks to the Prussians Germany was a military-industrial complex and gave us modern warfare that involves every aspect of a nation, unlike the wars of old. The US adopted this bureaucratic order and the education that goes with it. The US is now the Military-Industrial Complex it defended its democracy against.

There is a difference between haphazard wars and being a Military-Industrial Complex. A very important difference is cultural and thinking military order and control is better than a democracy with liberty and justice for all manifested by the citizens and rule by rule, not authority over the people. The US could throw all its weapons into the oceans and it would still be a Military-Industrial Complex because that is what it is bureaucratically and education for technology is about maintaining this military order.

They're both enormous problems. I don't think they're fascist -- I don't think they any longer have a coherent 'ism' or credo - that started unravelling with Nixon and his unholy alliance with the the South - or any ideology beyond grasping at power by any and all means. They - and their loyal yes-men in the congress and senate absolutely, point-blank renounce facts. They spurn the constitution, debase every agency of legitimate governance, trample on civil rights and education and deny the electorate a means of expression. They will make civil war... Well, not a new one: The American Civil War Part II.

Perhaps if I could explain the difference between past bureaucratic order and the Military-Industial Complex, you agree what we have is fascism.

Many experts agree that fascism is a mass political movement that emphasizes extreme nationalism, militarism, and the supremacy of both the nation and the single, powerful leader over the individual citizen. This model of government stands in contrast to liberal democracies, which support individual rights, competitive elections, and political dissent.
https://world101.cfr.org/historical-context/world-war/what-fascism#:~:text=What%20does%20fascism%20mean%3F,leader%20over%20the%20individual%20citizen.

The model of fascist government comes out of the Prussian military order. A hand of generals establishes the policy and this includes defining everything that needs to be done to achieve this goal and exactly what each person will do to achieve that goal. Now no one needs to think because obeying orders is preferred over independent thinking.

The national heroes that were the foundation of American culture, were independent thinkers. Washington, Franklin, and Lincoln were independent thinkers as were captains of ships. We destroyed our national heroes. We ended education for independent thinking and focused on "group think" because "group think" is best for advancing technology. We ended education for good moral judgment and left moral training to the Chruch, and now have an amoral society that we try to control with laws and authority over the people, who no longer understand what is required for good moral judgment.

I am struggling so hard for the right words. Please understand the bureaucratic order was always supported by public education and the present is nothing like the past. We now have military order, not family order. We once prepared everyone for civic and industrial leadership. Now all are prepared to follow and obey. Trump is our hero because he does not follow and obey. Trump is our Hitler because we have the bureaucratic order and education of our fascist enemy. You seem to favor this order over the democratic order and I think most people agree with you.

Sparta won the war with Athens. The modern Athens won the war with the modern Sparta. Now we are what defended our democracy against and most people believe this is a good thing but now that it is their hands, they think God favors them, and this is not fascism. But it is fascism.

The only worthwhile lesson from all such historical events has already been put into a song.
'WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothin.'
Any culture birthed from or maintained by war or the constant threat of it and preparation for it, will continue to fail. — universeness

I believe in Biblical terms that is the Beast. The Beast consumes everything at the expense of the people. I want to pull what you said forward because it goes with the argument I am having with Vera Mont. The best model for the Beast is fascism. "Dr. Friedrich Naumann has emphasized the fundamental difference between the war of yesterday and the war of to-morrow. "

The war of the future is a problem of economic organization of the most difficult nature and highest technological achievement, such as has never been hitherto demanded from any army.....
We know that our nation possesses in its industries successful organizers, brains accustom to direct great quantities of material and "personnel" - men who create new conditions of life for whole economic
districts without having to appeal to any mystical authority."

We never ended the government of contracts of WWII but have greatly increased them. The political battle we have now is who gets those government contracts and who pays for them. Culturally speaking is our blindness in the US, and immediately, the near worship of Trump and his nationalism! His "make America great again" is not raising the standard of living but increasing private profits. That greatness is in part selling weapons around the world and at home. It is the Beast of the Bible and supported by Christians who are capitalist and in denial of the harm done to our own and the whole world, as long as it means those at the top get richer and more powerful. You know, God's chosen few who do the work of God in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, putting our nation in greater and greater debt and making the US the targeted world enemy.

I don't think wishing for a little more truth in political and social organization makes me fascist. But i wouldn't dream of suppressing your opinion. — Vera Mont

Now that is a subject that is best with an exploration of facts. I thought this technological development was largely in the US but thanks to this forum, I have learned the technological bureaucratic development is worldwide. If we want to understand reality it is well worth the effort to understand what has happened.

The bureaucratic change comes for good reasons and it would not be threatening our liberty and personal power if we worked on our culture for empowering individuals and people having a better understanding of liberty and personal responsibility. Our failure to understand the importance of bureaucratic changes and education for technology leaves us powerless to protect our liberty, as our failure to understand bacteria and viruses left us powerless to prevent and cure disease.
We are dealing with a powerful known.

You say our bureaucratic organization which includes education for the Military Industrial Complex does not make us fascist and you are in favor of facts. So how have wars and technology changed our reality as we entered WWI and existed from WWII? What is different about how we organize ourselves?

Pretty much the same thing happened to Athens as it spread its civilization and changed the education focus to groom the new bureaucrats and public speakers. There was debate of the good and bad of this change. We are not debating the change but are simply denying it. Does the following remind you of Trump? Trump is not the problem, but the mass who follow him are the problem.

Definition of Facism..

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition — merriam-webster

Notice "exalts nation". Australia is just as strong on individuality and personal power as the US ideal but it is about individuals, NOT EXALTING the nation. There is a serious difference. Can you see that? Our richest people are the ones with government contracts and Trump is supportive of this as his followers strongly oppose socialism. Do you disagree?

I'd choose a smart dog. But that won't repair the damage we've done to the world. — Vera Mont

I am not surprised.

My father thought so highly of the book "Emotional Intelligence" that he bought everyone in the family a copy of that book. His ability to be responsible for the metal that took Apollo to the moon, is something we are very proud of. His willingness to take responsibility for his problem with relationships is also something to be proud of.

Nobody knows what anyone else means by "overly." (or fascist) — Vera Mont

:lol: Then ask. Like how manly to put me on the defense instead of asking for more information.
What is happening here is not pleasant. Being put on the defensive turns things negative.

Fascism is a bureaucratic/social order that is very authoritarian and shifts power from the people to the state, totally crushing individual power and liberty. And this goes very well with Christianity. The US fought two world wars to defend its democratic way of life, before adopting Germany's model of bureaucracy and its model of education for technology that goes it. Add to this Evanglics coming to political power as we mobilized against those godless people of communism and assure loyalty to the Nation by putting God in the pledge of allegiance and on all our money. Yeap, this discussion is right on target. Cultural differences are important.

Uniting a nation with a god who favors them has been very effective ever since Rome.

We're drowning in a plastic-infused ocean of feeeeellliiiings. Could use a solid life-preserver of logical reasoning. But that's just my opinion. — Vera Mont

I expected that. So what are you going to do now? Make an effort to expand your consciousness or give up?

I think humanity would be much further ahead if, like the Iroquois, women had always played an important role in our growing human consciousness. I am very excited by the difference empowered women are making and I am not bending to the male standard that I believe is a failure and basic cause of our social and international problems.

The two aspects of thought can coexist, but should never be confused. You can imagine a "better" life - in relation to something known, charted, qualifiable and quantifiable - else "better" has neither meaning nor goals. — Vera Mont

My effort to argue against what you said relies too much on personal thoughts and I am not in a position to be respected for what I think, so I googled for a source that may be respected.

Einstein, 2000):

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution.”

“I believe in intuition and inspiration…At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason.”

“My intuition was not strong enough in the field of mathematics to differentiate clearly the fundamentally important…from the rest of the more or less desirable erudition. Also, my interest in the study of nature was no doubt stronger… In this field I soon learned to sniff out that which might lead to fundamentals and to turn aside…from the multitude of things that clutter up the mind and divert from the essentials.”

“The truly great advances in our understanding of nature originated in a way almost diametrically opposed to induction. The intuitive grasp of the essentials of a large complex of facts leads the scientist to the postulation of a hypothetical basic law, or several such laws. From these laws, he derives his conclusions…which can then be compared to experience. Basic laws (axioms) and conclusions together form what is called a “theory.” Every expert knows that the greatest advances in natural science…originated in this manner, and that their basis has this hypothetical character.”

“All great achievements of science must start from intuitive knowledge, namely, in axioms, from which deductions are then made…Intuition is the necessary condition for the discovery of such axioms.”

“I very rarely think in words at all. A thought comes, and I may try to express it in words afterwards.”

“I was sitting in the patent office in Bern when all of a sudden a thought occurred to me: if a person falls freely, he won’t feel his own weight. I was startled. This simple thought made a deep impression on me. It impelled me toward a theory of gravitation.”

https://christinaleimer.com/intuition-einstein/

I have no idea how well you relate to what Einstein. I just know I can relate to what he said. Especially
“I very rarely think in words at all. A thought comes, and I may try to express it in words afterward.” I love it when I find someone said what I want to say but just can not find the right words for saying it.

Because of my relationships with low-IQ people, I know if I were stranded in the wilderness, I would rather be with one of them than someone with a high IQ because the person who is more like an animal intuitively is better at survival.

Yes. But if it isn't grounded in factual information about the world, it is fantasy. — Vera Mont

My goodness, between the music I am listening to and explaining the importance of needing to valued and having a sense of belonging, I have a vivid awareness of important it is to ground ourselves with our hearts. Nothing is more real to me at this moment than the reality I know we can live is grounded in our hearts. Without this, we entropy and die.

Reality is about so much more than facts and if we can not deal with that, there is a big problem. To me, you are speaking of the result of education for technology and our technological development and the fact that we are on the brink of a third world war. Some much for being grounded in facts. And we are in complete denial of facts! We are destroying nature and our planet. We are like smokers who can not stop even when they know the health risk. There is more to life than facts our technological society may be a big mistake because it is thinking too much and feeling too little. How do you feel about being on the path of global war?

Right now in the news parents are extremely upset about sex in textbooks. Sex is about a whole lot more than facts and education for technology comes with a big problem of insensitivity, and a sense of a big brother over stepping. It is about time we stand up and tell big brother to back off.

Progress allows us to focus on higher order tasks than before. Would you still rather clothes were washed in the local stream in comparison with using a washing machine? Think of how mush time and effort people could assign to improving their knowledge and pushing the current boundaries of what we know, if everyone could take all basic needs for granted. — universeness

I appreciate your argument but if someone is retarded and the best contribution this person can make is to fetch water or wash clothes by hand in the stream, that is the job this person needs to do. Taking this job away with indoor plumbing and machines is hurtful to the person who needs to feel valued by the group. I say this because I have worked so much with these people and believe it or not, I speak with compassion and love. What has gone wrong is largely the fact that we don't need these people and we either ignore them on the streets or put them in foster homes where they are taken care of and we do not give them opportunities to feel needed and important.

I worked in a place that trained severely retarded adults for jobs and it was terribly sad knowing there are no jobs for these people, as they try so hard to make themselves useful and valued people. I have lived with them, and I have worked in foster homes. I have also associated with homeless people. For you and me, time to read books and ponder life is very valuable but that is not so for all people.

I ask you to consider how dehumanizing Industry can be. I am sure that is what you are thinking of when you speak of it as an evil. But now think of those closed out of society struggling to be recognized as needed members of society. Their days have nothing to schedule their lives. One day is just like another and if they are not being driven away, they are invisible. There is no place for them and that means not having an identity of someone who belongs. Many don't even have family. I didn't realize how awful this reality is until I lived in a mobile home and our pipes froze. Then we sincerely needed someone to fetch water and suddenly these guys were needed and they stood 10 feet tall.

So what you say is true but it is not the whole truth.

And as we all do, every day, both as individuals and as groups.

They also conquered foreign lands whose gods had to be accommodated, assimilated, or subsumed in their own pantheon, because direct suppression invariably engenders a stiffer resistance. The RCC didn't care, because it was squandering the human and material resources of independent nations on its religious wars. But ancient civilizations had to budget their available resources. Some foreign gods were also imported through commerce and migration; some of these gained popular support. — Vera Mont

We have agreement but perhaps how we feel about these facts is different? I think what has happened is wonderful. It makes me happy. It might have been better without the wars. I sure don't want wars today but our planet has too many humans right now and we would have suffered from that much earlier if we didn't kill each other. Another good thing about war is it stimulates technological advancement. We did not have the knowledge and technology to feed the masses that need to be fed today. But all in all, the expansion of our consciousness is totally awesome.

I think we are in the Resurrection with archeologists and geologists and related sciences, raising awareness of our past. It is our responsibility today to learn as much as we can, and rethink everything. Hopefully, we can gain knowledge fast enough to save our planet and humanity. Just not the amount of humanity we have today.

How do you feel about it all?

And that - even if it's about a fictional past, an imaginary present, a non-existent reality - turns it into "philosophy"? Plato might go for it. I don't. — Vera Mont

Okay, I think I can work with what you said. I agree with you about the importance of facts, but this should never reduce our ability to fantasize about a better life and how we might achieve it. It is our creativity that separates us from other animals. Life is what we make it, not exactly what a god gives us.

I see being overly concerned with facts as fascist. It makes people crazy, intolerant, and prone to violence. This is a serious cultural problem and it is what the US stood against. We have destroyed the culture that made the US great. Some changes may be good, but the loss of the culture we transmitted through public education is not good. The US is in big trouble right now.

I fully advocate, that we need to provide high quality, free, education for all citizens from cradle to grave.
I think we both agree that YOU should have ZERO concerns at this stage in YOUR life, (or indeed at any stage of life) regarding good quality accommodation, free and fully available for as long as you require it. Free and full access to any medical assistance you ever require and that assistance should be the highest quality available within current technology. Free education in any subject you wish to pursue. Access to opportunity to give you as many options as possible for how you wish to direct your life in accordance with, 'from each according to ability and will, to each according to need.' Finding your own cause and purpose in life should be fully supported by your local, regional and national authorities.
You should also be able to take all other basic needs for granted including, food, drink and personal security. That is the human civilisation/culture I think we CAN build, and will eventually build, on a global scale. — universeness

No, I would not want life if my life is completely useless. Whatever I get should make it possible for me to be a valuable member of society, and if I can no longer be of value, please, pull the plug!

Oh my goodness, please, I do not want all you offer. I think it would be absolutely dreadful to have everything without it being because of my own effort.

But for a purpose in life, the book I am reading now has given me a new purpose in life. The book is titled Preventable and this link should get you to an explanation of it. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/55246090

I would love to see a memorial day for civil service workers. I want that holiday to tell the story of how many civil service workers including nurses and ambulance drivers, and CNAs who worked in nursing homes, died because we did not maintain the supplies that were essential to saving their lives. We were ready for a pandemic because of Ebola and knowing the threat of a pandemic. Obama saw to that. But we did not maintain what was already in place. These people were superheroes because of our shame of letting things get so bad. This includes the health/medical neglect of those living in poverty because they were paid terrible wages and continued to do their essential work jobs even though the condition of poverty increased their risk of dying. If you care you may like the book as much as I do.

It should include those who ran into the burning building the day of 9/11. Let us honor our heros who gave their lives because they deserve that every bit as much as fallen shoulders, and because we need to look at each other and see a potential hero because I believe most of us would be heroes if we were in a situation that required heroes. The number one thing we have to do is love each other and override the destructive Christian notion that we are not worthy without a god saving us.

Oh yes, fantasy, the first step to human progress, resolving problems, creating a better world. If humans stop being creative and stop having fantasies, and innovating, will they have a life worth living?

I think the facts on the ground won't change. So, probably yes. — Vera Mont

Philosophy is about so much more than facts.

I fully believe that the human race can and will create a civilisation that is better than any human civilisation that has ever existed in the past. Civilisations like ancient Greece or USA today will be nothing more than additions to the large list of examples of past attempts that utterly failed and fully deserved to.
The best way for humans to BE is yet to come. On another thread, I listed the top 5 barriers I think we need to terminate completely or reduce to a relatively powerless minimum.
Creating that culture IS INDEED critical imo. We need to make the following benign:
1. Money
2. Capitalism
3. Primal fear.
4. Religion/theism/theosophism
5. Mental aberrations in others, such as narcissism, cult of celebrity, cult of personality, a need to follow others blindly without question. — universeness

Now you give me something I can talk about. Thank you.

If we had always lived in Eden, and grew up without fear and a need to compete for scarce resources perhaps that future you believe is possible would already be here and now. Along with the Enlightenment is the New Age hope. The New Age being a time of high tech and peace and the end of tyranny.

Our developing technology has indeed so changed our consciousness that we can relate to those who made history. How could they have not known slavery was a terrible thing? How could they have abused and exploited laborers as they did? Why didn't they always see things as wrong as cannibalism? What I am arguing is that insistence that war is a major part of our lives and not patting ourselves on the back for how far we have come is a negative and destructive mindset.

We have been undergoing rapid social and economic change and this creates instability and anxiety, and this is expressed in social and economic problems. If we realize how much we have progressed and how rapid change affects the whole of society then we might have better moral judgment and actualize our human potential of improving life on earth by being cooperative.

I think your list of necessary changes has merit but those changes are very problematic. The place to start making those changes is a return to education for good moral judgment and citizenship. About #5 somehow I was strongly indoctrinated to believe being a good citizen means lifelong learning and independent thinking. We had education for independent thinking which is vital to a democracy, and in 1958 we replaced that education with education for groupthink and the rapid advancement of technology. There are huge social, economic, and political ramifications of this change.

Now because advanced technology gives us the potential ability to manifest Eden, we needed that focus on education for technology, but because we lacked understanding of the importance of culture and what education has to do with culture, what was good has become bad, and we need to correct the problem with education.

They do say travel broadens the mind. Most Scots I know would be glad to know an altruist such as yourself.

All the military empires of those times with their colourfully dressed toy looking soldiers, whose leaders brought them in army formations, to fight and be slaughtered in muddy fields, all seemed to me to be small variations on a seriously 'f***** up' theme.

'Honour and Glory,' we start the fight at an agreed time and not a second before!
We die and kill to the background music of pipe and drum.
Open with the cannons, flank them! flank them! send in the cavalry with infantry support, ....... and we all fall down! The Prussians, The Russians, The French, The British, The Austrians, The Hungarians, etc etc. Beautiful war to see which gangland culture wins and which bunch of nefarious elite f***wits get to rule Europe!!!!
The only worthwhile lesson from all such historical events has already been put into a song.
'WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothin.'
Any culture birthed from or maintained by war or the constant threat of it and preparation for it, will continue to fail. — universeness

That is a different point of view from my understanding of what a nation is about. Like the US had some small wars, but they did not involve most of us until the world wars. We strongly stood against the taxes to maintain a large army or navy, until the military technology of WWII. Our education had nothing to do with wars but was about a culture and democratic way of life and fulfilling enlightenment dreams for a better world.

I don't know if it is me but today both of you both seem horribly depressing and I have pulled up a positive take on the opportunity to say what is right about the founding of the US and democracy for the last time. If this discussion does not improve, it might be time to end it.

I am having a problem thinking of anything positive to say. Maybe on another day, I will have a more positive outlook. Today the closest I come to something positive to say is providing a better definition of culture.

the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group. — Oxford Dictionary

It's not that we don't get the concept so much as that we disagree on the examples. — Vera Mont

Wonderful and why did we attempt to have a democracy? What makes it different from the kingdoms of the Bible? What are the characteristics of democracy? What is the best way to prepare our young for citizenship? The title of this thread is Culture is Critical. What does that have to do with democracy, liberty, and justice?

Except for all the gods Socrates is supposed to have offended. — Vera Mont

It used to take at least a hundred years for something like the discovery of bacteria to become common knowledge. The miracle of the Athenians is their transition from superstition to science and a focus on proofs. That is why they got our attention and became a model for US education. They were thought to be a race of geniuses. The transition did not happen overnight, but it happen.

In the play, The Clouds by Aristophanes, the character named Socrates argues in favor of science.

It would take a week to track down all the pieces of such a quilt.[/quore] It would take more than time because I have not said what you think I said. When I speak of democracy I do not mean the US, except when speaking of something about democracy that the US did get right. And for sure I am horrified by US capitalism and we need to replace the autocratic model of Industry with the Democratic model. It would help if you asked questions instead of assuming what I mean.
— Vera Mont

Democracy is a way of life that is based on Greek and Roman classics.
— Athena

Yes, you've said, on several occasions.

I keep waiting for discussions to be about democracy as a way of life, and they never do. It is like no one gets the concept. The discussion I would like to have can not move forward when what I say is just words without meaning.

And a code of laws based on the biblical commandments meshed together with English common law, on the foundation of a fatally flawed constitution and electoral procedure. — Vera Mont

Now that could become a discussion about our way of life. I really wish we would get Christianity out of our culture. And I much prefer the Greeks to Rome. The US aspires to be like Rome more than it aspires to be like Athens. This is about culture, not politics. Where does our conscientiousness come from? As powerful as Rome with Christianity was, it still fell.

What are the fatal flaws of the US Constitution?

Tocqueville saw some problems and warned the US would become a despot in his 1830 book "Democracy in America". I am open to examining the flaws.

I'm not recommending a book. Your proposed book is fine - so long as it has lots of company from different perspectives. I'm recommending - warning - an adjustment of mind-set. All the times you've taken for granted that Americans were/are "the good guys" in a conflict; :gasp: all the times you've advocated, directly or indirectly, for American-style capitalism; :gasp: all the the usual accepted fictions... it's not deliberate; it's habitual. People need to develop a new habit: questioning the old verities. — Vera Mont

Would you please copy and paste what I said that lead you to think what you think?

Democracy is a way of life that is based on Greek and Roman classics. Basic to that way of life is secular thinking. The God of Abraham religions are not compactable with democracy because in a democracy there is no God with favorite people. Instead of fear of learning that is tied to fear of Satan and displeasing a God, in a democracy life long learning is an essential part of participating in politics and being a good citizen. There are fundamental differences separating church and state!

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." (General Report of the Seminar on "What is Democracy?" Congress on Education for Democracy, August 1939)" From the 1941 "Democracy Series" of books for the grade schools.

I can't see that at all. Perhaps I would have fought with them/for them against the Romans, but that's about it.
As a Scot, I see little to admire regarding the Saxons or/and the Angles, that hailed from that place and along with the Norman French, eventually formed England. Prussia was quite an ugly civilisation as was WWI and WW2 Germany. Almost as ugly a grouping as the Spartans imo. — universeness

Oh my God, I love what you said. Now if I win the lottery I will have to travel to your part of the world and stay there long enough to absorb history from your point of view. But at the moment I only know my point of view gleaned from books, and we have an agreement about Prussia. Charles Sarolea's book written just before the first world war "The Anglo-German Problem" says the Prussians are very unpleasant people. However, The Prussians who were like the Spartans for the same reason the Spantans were unpleasant, are not the whole of Germany. Spartans and Prussians were as they were for geological reasons. Neither had enough good farmland.

But the rest of Germany had the geology that makes life in the US good. Mild climates and plenty of good farmland. These people are artistic, congenial, and good neighbors and it really worried Sarolea that they left government up to the Prussians who were not nice people. And love, it is what I know of these people's differences that presses me to write about the importance of culture. Sarolea said the Prussians did not have a culture but were as an army always ready for war. It is the Prussian military order that has made the US what it defended its democracy against. The US adopted the Prussian model for bureaucracy and the German model of education. With our institutions model after Germany's institutions is it any wonder Trump has enjoyed the popularity of Hitler? But now I am pissing into the wind because if there are any US citizens who see what I see, I have not come across them. We are all like the Germans who let Prussia have control.

This thread being about culture is good for speaking of the Scotts who made a huge intellectual contribution to the US and the formation of its rebellion against the English. They especially influenced Jefferson during his school years and made Jefferson intensely focused on the importance of universal education if we were to have a strong and united Republic. Our liberty was dependent on that education and following WWII, we totally replaced that education with the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purposes. Now we struggle to control citizens with law and law enforcement and some states have gone as far as rewarding citizens who report on their neighbors! And we are clueless about what has gone so wrong.

I didn't say anything about how much you, personally, know about what aspect of history. I'm merely warning that, regardless what else is taught in their schools, as long as Americans lull themselves with mythical versions of their story as a nation, their national identity and character; as long as they keep telling those stories to their children, and do not correct the inaccuracies, fallacies, misconceptions and outright fictions in their own understanding of their own history; as long as they refuse to come to terms over what's dysfunctional in their social system and why, nothing in their perilous present situation will improve and there are strong indications that it will deteriorate, and at an accelerating pace.
(and this applies equally to other nations that are not under consideration here) — Vera Mont

Let's see I think I made a derogatory comment about HIS STORY and referred to a few problems in our past that continue to plague the US and absolutely what you said is correct. I just think it is important to begin the history of democracy with Athens and Sparta.

I have a lot of old textbooks because I want to see the past of our education, and some history books are soo boring it is cruel and inhuman punishment to make children read them. Only one of these old history books presents history with a more humanities approach. But boy, is that one inaccurate by today's standards however, it at least it begins with a mention of ancient times, and that is where a history book for democracy must begin.

That is, we can national history books but that is not exactly what I think we need. We need to learn of the history of democracy and how the understanding of it changed. Every, every important to me, is a more scientific understanding of creation, and this is compatible with logos and the idea that land animals evolved from fish. I want a book that punishes for understanding the importance of morals and the Greeks understood morals. Moral is to know the Law (universal law/ logos) and good manners. This needs to be developed into what good reasoning has to do with being a democracy.

The history book you recommend has merit. But my way could result in better understanding without all the pushback that is happening now with history that increases awareness of our wrongs. Our public broadcasting station is doing a good job of increasing awareness of our wrongs. That is a history book for democracy.

From all of the days of your life Athena, what events/realisations/empathy/anger/shame/joy do your remember most? — universeness

:heart: Oh, my love, I love that question and will say it is probably my teacher grandmother and world wars and the depression, through the 1960's and the technological transition today. :down: I would so love to say more but I am out of time:cry: PS Germany is our soul mate and historic partner who manifests our present more than our historical past.

Whereas, it wasn't even remotely about religion or any kind of moral principle. (Lincoln: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.")
The real issues were political and economic. And this fundamental, foundational schism was built into the original federation by those very same men who signed that document which began as idealistic and wound up as fraudulent. That expedient compromise has cost a whole lot of powerless people a whole lot of blood and pain and grief. — Vera Mont

Wow, I so appreciate your explanation of history and I wish we had the history of inclusive equality to go with that. I am afraid we are working with a false understanding of indigenous people and our animal nature which is evolved from it. We are by nature tribal. We are doing good to remember the names of 500 people and something about them such as who they are related to. For us to live in larger groups is pretty amazing. It is not our nature that makes that possible but our intellect overrides our nature. What is the story we tell ourselves about who to include as one of us and who is not one of us? That story is the foundation of culture.

Not merely encouraged but often mandated by the elite, who sent many of their own children to Europe for their education. The FF's had had that classical education themselves. https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/classical-education-founding-fathers/
and did nothing to enable their fellow Americans.[/

That goes back to the story of who is one of us and who is not. The Iroquois were willing to be one of us because the culture recognized the benefit of getting along and not all tribes have done so. In some areas of the world, cannibalism was practiced. That is a pretty serious notion of who is one of us and who is not. Closer to home, how did the Europeans think? In ancient times, the Greeks took control of a region with Jews and they had a terrible fight because the Greeks based hiring on merit and the Jews were totally locked into inherited positions. Our democracy is a new social order, Not the social order of the Bible. The philosophy behind democracy does not go with the notion that God determines who will be masters and who will be slaves/servants and Europe was Christian with a hierarchy of power and authority, NOT a democracy.

Today many Christians believe in a super-loving God, not the jealous, revengeful, fearsome, and punishing God of our European history. I am saying these things because you mentioned the FF and the rich sending their children to Europe to be educated. I think we need to understand the mentality of the past, to understand our present clashes of values and how to manifest a better nation. I also want to point out, Thomas Jefferson devoted his life to mass education, believing that was the only way to have a successful democracy.

We might keep in mind, Martin Luther thought God decided who would be a master or a slave. Look we had a famous Black man named Martin Luther King. KING?! That is not a democratic concept and the Bible is a book of kings and slaves. It is a different understanding of reality than the secular Greeks who gave people jobs based on merit. We are just beginning to attack this ugly problem with talk about how the privileged and how that privilege is undemocratic and does not manifest the ideal of equality.
We are trying to have a democracy without a good grasp of people not being born to rule over others, but bred to have the position of power and authority.

This is not the peaceful democracy we defended in two world wars,
— Athena

Of course not!
Aside from the fact that America didn't actually need to defend itself in either of those wars (Hawaii wasn't a state then; it was occupied territory)
that peaceful democracy never existed in the physical universe.
1775–1783 American Revolution English Colonists vs. Great Britain
1798–1800 Franco-American Naval War United States vs. France
1801–1805; 1815 Barbary Wars United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli
1812–1815 War of 1812 United States vs. Great Britain
1813–1814 Creek War United States vs. Creek Nation
1836 War of Texas Independence Texas vs. Mexico
1846–1848 Mexican-American War United States vs. Mexico
1861–1865 U.S. Civil War Union vs. Confederacy
1898 Spanish-American War United States vs. Spain
That's not including most of the campaigns against First Nations and all the little secret and overt interventions in other nations' colonial conflicts and not even mentioning conflicts between farmers and ranchers, disputes over water rights, labour wars,
In the 1800s and early 1900s, picketers often faced the risk of being beaten up by police or thugs recruited by management. “The U.S. has one of the most violent labor histories in the world,” says Judith Stepan-Norris, police violence against protesters of every kind... and then there's all the gangs and outlaws.

A reminder the guardians of truth are confusion and paradox. While the list of violence can be used to argue we have never had peace, it can also be argued the US was nothing like the Military Industrial Complex it is today. We held a sense of destiny but like Israel, we had limits. For the most part, we depended on the oceans to prevent us from being attacked and we were totally unprepared for the world wars. The military technology of WWII and the need for oil, changed all that. I think to deny the Military Industrial Complex of the US today is extremely different from our past, is a huge mistake.

[qiote] Nixon had laid some good ground-work for that, undoing whatever Johnson had been able to accomplish to mitigate the enormous gulf that had always existed and is never going away. The United States has never been anything but a figment of wishful thinking. When Bobby Kennedy was killed, the excellent film director, Norman Jewison, felt he had to leave the country, saying, "How can America be so violent that it destroys its own best people?" [/quote]

That is a delicious question. I think we are more religious than Europeans, who seem to have a better understanding of democracy serving the good of everyone, not just the privileged. Going with religion Jesus did tell his followers to sell their robes and buy swords. Also, we are not that far from the wild west where there was no established government to keep peace and order. Certainly in states that are mostly rural, people are not as sophisticated as they are in large cities. They are accustomed to being their sole authority and enforcer of authority. They are not adjusted to living with many people with many differences between them. That is, they are not "civilized". We used education to unite everyone and to a very large degree, this was achieved but the 1958 National Defense Education Act changed the purpose of education, and this is why I write of culture. We Stopped transmitting a culture that is essential to being a united and strong nation.

I'm convinced that you care deeply and passionately about education. But if you're not prepared to teach young people about their own history - the unspun, unrevised, unvarnished, unedited truth - no substantial problem will ever be addressed. You may as well leave the lobbyists, jingoists and propagandists take over.

Thank you for challenging me and causing me to think things through. I might know a little more about history than you think. Learning history by studying the history of education is totally fascinating to me. I think my whole mental organization is different from most. I am less prone to seeing history as HIS STORY and strongly favor a more sociological perspective of consciousness, how did someone become aware of that idea? How was the concept communicated to others? How was it changed as the concept move from one culture to another? How did it clash, assimilate and evolve with other concepts?

The US defended its democracy against what it is today. It is a huge error to deny that change. We come from a totally different understanding of God than we have today. It is a huge error to be unaware of that. Democracy is a new social order and it is pretty amazing Christians claim we have democracy because of it being God's will, and they defend God's will. But Christianity supported kings and slavery.

History is a perspective, and if I completed a school book for democracy, I would begin with Athens. I lack the motivation to do that because I don't think Christians would choose such a book for the education of their children. But that is where the history of our democracy needs to begin and that history needs to include the Native American Federation which was a model for our federal government, instead of a kingdom being our model for our government.

think you would need to go back to the single celled organism, co-operating with various bacteria and creating a symbiosis which still exists today. Those cells exist in humans, so from that angle, cooperation plays a big role in why we exist at all. — universeness

I love that explanation! I see how it goes with an understanding of logos. We can discover the laws of the universe with science. And then with our knowledge of logos, we can have rule by reason and live together symbiosisly with peace and the good for all.

But to achieve that we need to work with an understanding of logos and what it has to do with democracy. That is not explained in the Bible and leaving moral training to the church is problematic. Unlike the single-celled organisms going with the flow without opposing opinions, humans center their choices on self-knowledge and competition for finite resources and they can go against the flow. We have to intellectually understand the benefits and reality of symbiosis before we can put that in our lives.

Yes, the US started with exactly that understanding.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
They just found it expedient never to implement it. — Vera Mont

Oh my goodness what a delicious argument. The South used the Bible to defend slavery. Both the North and the South thought they were defending the will of God, making the civil war a very deadly war. Even Quakers had a history of having slaves, but they came to see this as wrong and took a stand against it. The Quakers refer to the New Testament and ignore the Old Testament. The Old Testament justifies slavery. The Old Testament is a tribal religion where only Jews could not be slaves because of their relationship with God, but they could own slaves. Later Romans made Christianity a national religion that Judaism could never become.

In the beginning of US democracy, there was a high illiteracy rate, especially in the rural South. Also, the education that really matters for democracy is literacy in Greek and Roman classics. That would be higher education and extremely few would have that.

Without education for democracy, we can not manifest the culture for democracy. To this very day, there is a lot of disagreement about men being created equal. What does that mean? The KKK was a Christian organization and it was behind lynching people of color and keeping them in their place.

White women in the South played a very strong role in promoting racism and white supremacy.

the long-standing work of white women who sustained racial segregation and nurtured both massive support for the Jim Crow order in the interwar period and who transformed support into massive resistance after World War II. Support for the segregated state existed among everyday people. Maintaining racial segregation was not solely or even primarily the work of elected officials. Its adherents sustained the system with quotidian work, and on the ground, it was often white women who shaped and sustained white supremacist politics. — Elizabeth Gillespie McRae

Before the Civil War, the North attempted to make the US a strong and united nation with textbooks published in the North and sold to schools throughout the nation. These books promoted democracy the one you see in the historical documents. The South realized what the North was doing and began printing its own textbook manifesting the culture of the South, not the culture for democracy in the North. The North and South have had distinctly different cultures and today that is very much a problem. Trump divided us as much as the Civil War and we remain glaring aware of the divide. Never in my 70-plus years did I drop friends because of political differences till Trump. I am afraid if that comes up again, we will see more violence.

A big problem is the size and wealth of Texas and its flavor of Christianity that attempts to control in favor of Christian mythology in public education. Textbook companies want Texas business so they design textbooks for the Texas market including science books that presented creationism as science equal to evolution. Teachers took the school board to the supreme court, to get religion out of the science books.
Our nation is not the united culture that Jefferson and his associates hope the US would have through education.

Here is the original Pledge of Allegiance.

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

When the US was mobilizing against the USSR Bill Graham helped Eisenhower see how adding "God" to that could unite us against those "godless people". This is not the peaceful democracy we defended in two world wars, but is now the Military Industrial Complex it defended our democracy against. War is good for religion and religion is good for war. That was not our culture based on the Greek and Roman classics.

The age-old question is who is one of us? All social animals recognize who is one of us and who is one of them. We defend "us" against "them". Human is to include far more people as one of us, than any other group of social animals. We do this through culture.

A huge problem with leaving moral training to the Church is our human nature leads us to divide "us" from "them" and so we take a religion that us supposed to unite us and create a lot of division. Like I know God's truth and He favors me, and I am going to heaven but not you because you do not know God's truth. You are not one of us.

Although some areas of the US have not gotten the message Americans are equal no matter what color their skin or what their sexual preferences are. Coming from the Bible there is no equality and ministers must protect their sheep from the pagans and barbarians or those cursed with dark skin. :grimace: That is not the culture for democracy. But can we achieve the way of life that was taught to school children when the US mobilized for the second world war?

"Democracy is a way of life and social order organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." "Democracy Series".

If we had the consciousness of the past, all children would be educated for the culture that manifests democracy, and so educated they would be citizens of the US, and none without that education would be citizens with the rights of citizens. A set number of immigrants could enter each year and they could become educated in this way of life and if they passed the citizenship test they could become citizens, but this needs to be kept separate from being a Christian, you know that divisive religion that commands us to play God and take care of the needs of everyone while at the same time we stand at our borders with guns and fight to keep the immigrants out. :chin: Does that makes sense?

Bottom line, how do we determine who is one of us and who is not? Should we care for everyone regardless of their contribution to society and cost of doing so?

Under jungle rules, young females are considered property and part of 'to the victor, the spoils, rule.'— universeness

In what species? Not elephants, crows, dolphins or or cheetahs. The norm in many human situations today, of course - not so much spoils as commodities.
---Vera Mont — Vera Mont

:gasp: Maybe a better understanding of jungle rules would help.

Antagonistic relationships are found not only between animals of different species, but within species too. Intraspecific conflict occurs when the interests of individual animals within a given species conflict. This happens when there is a limited supply of a valuable resource. For example, some areas are better than others for finding food, shelter from the elements, places to hide from predatory animals, or opportunities for attracting a mate. Conflicts occur frequently because animals of the same species have very similar requirements for their wellbeing, survival and reproduction, yet their demand for those resources exceed what is available.1 Animals also compete with each other for access to mates, social status, food, and parental care. The conflict may be direct, with animals fighting each other (called “interference”) or indirect, with animals competing without fighting each other directly (called “exploitation”).2 Both forms of competition can be harmful. Fighting can result in injury or death. Even if animals aren’t directly harmed by others, they can be harmed by deprivation.

By jungle rules, Whites can enslave dark-skinned people, and kill those who do not stay in their place. The US did not begin with the understanding of being born equal and equality under the law as we have today. Not all of the US agrees on who has rights and who does not. That is an intellectual decision and jungle rules are for lesser animals.

Humans are not equal to ants or dinosaurs. And while modern-day horses pass on a culture to the young, humans and horses are not equals. Horses and other mammals are known to teach their young proper behavior, but their heads don't get full of arguments about good and bad and where do my rights end and yours begin. That is, humans have the potential for being intellectual and other mammals do not. That makes getting along much, much more difficult for humans.

I would like us to have a good understanding of visceral, relating to deep inward feelings rather than to the intellect. I will venture to say, all mammals can learn through sensations of reward and punishment. The Behaviorist Method for training children can be used for training dogs, but we do not give our dogs citizenship responsibilities. The US replaced the Conceptional Method with the Behaviorist Method and now we have some very serious social problems! This makes me go a little crazy when someone says something that could mean there is not a huge difference because humans and other animals.

So when a pony is misbehaving the mother may prod the pony, stirring a bit of an uncomfortable feeling. The mother does not give her young long explanations about good and bad behavior, but we give our children lots of lectures and we do a lot of explaining, or at least I hope most of do. Verbal communication is about reasoning and it is what makes us political animals. Because we can communicate with words, we have rule by reason as opposed to rule by authority over the people. People who don't understand this may think a gun is a good communication tool, or bombs and economic warfare are good political tools. Like there are some people who do not understand democracy at all but think life is just one big power game. Unfortunately, we even make those power game players our presidents, because have lost an understanding of democracy as rule by reason, and boy are we in a mess.

Unless we have education for intellectual development, we do not have education for the culture that is essential to democracy. Dinosaurs and ants do not require that education.

This seems to be a very obvious truth but the truths that apply most widely are often the most obvious, even though they remain a 'struggle' for most humans alive today. Sure, it's not JUST about water, but its ALSO about water. The biggest truth about culturalism is that it does not affect your need for water, food, shelter, warmth, etc. All people from all cultures have identical basic needs. — universeness

But our understanding of reality is not identical. Some believe we have a spiritual duty to protect the earth, and some do not. For me, this an extremely important disagreement about reality.

In fact, those basics are needed by all fauna on the planet.
People mostly war over basic resources. But the nefarious want to be 'EXCESSIVELY RICH,' in resources. They don't want a little gold, they want to be surrounded by gold and be recognised as 'god like' and have every whim serviced and own an excessive glut of all resources and have every urge satisfied and be loved and feared by everyone, etc etc. It's either YOUR WAY or there will be HELL TO PAY!

That is a cultural reality but there is also cultural opposition to it. Native Americans and other indigenous people.

Somewhat, but what is more important, is the basic understanding that Planet Earth has plenty of water. The rest is just bad behaviour.

I will trust the Native Americans with the answer. I join them in spiritual reasoning and oppose Christianity in part because it denies spiritual truth as I understand it.

Another obvious but absolutely great, vital question. MY HONEST answer is to do EXACTLY what we are doing now, 'keep fighting the good fight to make things better.'

Thank goodness for this forum that makes that possible.

War is the survival of the fittest strategy that was an imperative under jungle rules, but we discovered that it's not the only way to survive. We discovered that co-operation and negotiation, CAN produce better results for all stakeholders. But the nefarious want INSTANT gratification and permanent recognition of their superiority under the traditional jungle rules. We continue to struggle against them and I think we have been gaining ground against them for the past 10,000 years.
The progress has been very slow and it will probably continue to be so, but imo, success is inevitable.

We have praised the Spartans for their warrior society and somehow fought to add, the Spartans' worst enemy was themselves and they failed because they could not produce enough children to keep Sparta alive. That choice to praise Sparta is a culture choice. The choice to imitate Rome and Germany is a cultural choice. Why are we making these cultural choices instead of adopting Native American spirituality and putting the earth first?


What are the fundamental beliefs that make our lives good?
— Athena
What do we want that future race to know so they have the best chance of manifesting a good life for our planet?
— Athena
We need a better belief system. Any idea of how to construct that?
— Athena

I think these questions are for each of us to answer individually. I can give you the core of my answers.
Socialism and secular humanism and the details involved in them would make up the core of my answer to all 3 questions above. I have not came across any better labels for what I think would be a 'better way' for humans to live and treat each other.

Those must be a united choice because individuals can not make the differences that need to be made.

How about education for the humanities and insisting on worshiping our Mother Earth and taking care of her and planning for the future of our nation and making the well-being of our planet and children our primary concern? We need to continue this communication and explore what agreements we have.

If humanity is unified under single government, meaning no wars between nations, then anyone who would oppose such government could easily be declared as terrorist or terrorist group.

Doesn't sound like a good idea. — SpaceDweller

I totally agree it is not a good idea. Diversity is very important to progress and it is good to have communist nations, socialists, and monarchies so we can see what works and what does not.

Germany was our world war enemy and the US have adopted our enemy's model for bureaucracy and model of education for technology and philosophy and is now what it defended its democracy against.
There are some improvements and so problems. We have fought every war for nothing if we do not become aware of those changes.

It was the communist who began income taxes and it was the communist who "liberated" women first. A fully employed population is good for the economy, and those women who are "just housewives" and not good for the economy.

PS it was not gays who destroyed family values. Some of those gays are doing a better job of preserving family values than non gays.

Our judgment? We sat on our hands and allowed it to be taken away. Now we're stuck with the results and if we try to do anything about it we are loudly scorned by the fools we elected or the fools they appointed and by those of us who are sworn to protect and serve.

Sometimes I wonder if we are all suffering from some kind of mass hypnosis. — Varnaj42

I explain the problem differently. I do not think we have a good understanding of how we think and have taken too much for granted. We were sold education for technology that is destroying the culture we had. We are no longer preparing the young for democracy and liberty. We are not preparing them for independent thinking. We stopped educating the young for good moral judgement and good citizenship. It is my hope if we understand we must learn how to think logically before we can think logically, and that locial thinking is directly associated with good moral judgment, we return to that education to make our democracy strong and moral.

If we replace the autocratic model of industry with the democratic model and return to education for democracy, our democracy could be better than it ever was. That is really fundamental to the manifestation of democracy and having healthy families.

In a way, we are all suffering a kind of mass hypnosis. We have no understanding of the importance of the rediscovery of Greek and Roman civilizations and how that took us out of the dark ages and back on track to evolving our human potential. I think Christianity is one of the strongest factors in destroying the necessary education because Christianity wants all the credit for all the good and it promotes ignorance, especially in Texas where it has a strong influence on schools. But the military is for sure the strongest factor for preparing our young for the Military Industrial Complex and bankers are another layer of the problem, insisting a population be prepared to serve industry before the community receives loans.

Who cares about democracy, not politics, but democracy as a way of life? What are the principles of democracy? How is it manifested? What does culture have to do with the good life, democracy, liberty, and justice for all?

As I said, I also see the disadvantages of uniformity, even though I don't view them as extreme as you do. — Jacques

I don't think the problem is uniformity but the total opposite. We have no culture unifying us.

but given the nature of human beings, it doesn't seem possible to me — Jacques

Different cultures mean different expressions of our human nature. To simplify this concept the Hopi are the opposite of the Apache and this difference begins with child-rearing. Cannibalism is another cultural expression and it is taboo to our Western consciousness. I think we need to be very careful when we talk about human nature. I am good with classifying humans as social animals and seeing their commonalities in that way, but I think things like being aggressive or non-aggressive are a matter of culture.

Some Native American cultures shun individuality in favor of identifying with the tribe. I understand this as individuals in the family thinking as though they have very little connection with the family, or members of the family behaving as though family is more valuable than their individuality. This could be what you mean by conformity? Right now my family has one estranged member who is very hostile to the notion of behaving as part of the family. I think our culture has promoted the destruction of family and increased dependency on authority over the people. This has increased our differences and antagonism. There is a difference in what you mean by conformity. Members of the family can be very creative and different without alienating themselves from family.

That last site asks for a donation before a person can know anything about it.

The following link explains recycling water and probably is the best way to go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_reuse_in_California#:~:text=Water%20reuse%20in%20California%20is,economy%20and%20population%20to%20grow.

The future will probably be a combination of distillation and recycling water.

The efforts to save the Colorado River are huge.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/05/23/colorado-river-deal-water-cuts-explained/

Around the world major rivers are threatened and may die. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wwf-rivers/many-major-rivers-are-in-danger-of-dying-wwf-idUSL1957773520070320

We have to rethink our reality and our role in the health of our planet. Indigenous people around the world have struggled to protect our planet and their little space of it. This is surely a cultural matter.

↪Vera Mont Thanks but I don't call what we have now an existential threat. I call it a leadership crisis. We allow ourselves to be led by fools. — Varnaj42

Why do we do that? What happened to our judgment?

You're right, there would be disadvantages, (I love diversity too) but I think the advantages would outweigh them. — Jacques

What is the advantage of being meaningless and powerless, no more than a part plugged into a mechanical society, no more needed than another identical part?

What would a one-world government govern? How would it be organized?

That reason tends to make better decisions than emotion? Sure.
What kind of trouble? Is there a child in the river? It's better to get into a boat than jump in and try to swim after him. Because you — Vera Mont

I don't think so. There is already one about pie. It's a big, contentious issue. People's attitudes are largely formed by their own relative comfort. The casualties and collateral damage don't get to participate - only the beneficiaries. Doesn't seem fair. — Vera Mont

can row faster than you can swim and if you pull him into the boat there is a better chance of one or both of you surviving than if you try swimming against the current with one arm, and weighed down.

Can you test that? — Vera Mont

Did your brother-in-law get into debt again? It's better to figumotivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.re out the reasons for his financial mess than lend him yet another $500. Because that motivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.way, you can help him break the cycle of mismanagement, and you save both your money and your relationship.

The motive is emotion. How we act on it is reasoning. I am just saying that emotion is a necessary part of the equation.
It might be better to charge your

Self-aggrandizement, usually. But that doesn't affect the fact that they base decisions on mathematical calculatimotivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.an on.

I don't think so. There is already one about pie. It's a big, contentious issue. People's attitudes are largely formed by their own relative comfort. The casualties and collateral damage don't get to participate - only the beneficiaries. Doesn't seem fair.
Why would you think a generals motivation is aggrandizement? That may be true for some but I hardly think that is what motivates all generals. No one would willing follow such a general and without followers there not be leaders. A leader must engender a high sense of morale. Morale is what we feel when we believe we arIt might be better to charge your e doing the right thing. Or how about virtues are strength. A general must be virtuous. I am now talking about why we need to rely on humans and not technology. The right values bring out the best in all of us and we need to depend on each other for the best results.

Can yomotivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.an u test that? — Vera Mont

A better understanding of capitalism is necessary to answer your question. Research requires money and one of the most important functions of capitalism is providing the capital required for research. Another important function of capitalism is inmotivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.an creasing the wealth of small investors. That is to spread the wealth throughout the population and when this happens the standard of living improves.

It doesn't need a better life; it is content and has no reason to prevent us improving our lives. And it can help us achIt might be better to charge your ieve that, as moguls have not done. — Vera Mont

Yes, we need to rely on emotional humans. Moguls have not done what? How do you figure a computer that does not care will improve anything?

The human race is NOT DEAD YET! — universeness

I really need that positive kick in the butt because I got so bummed out when looking into the water situation and getting sidetracked by what Israel is doing. I hate Israel and the Christian support of it at the expense of Palestinians.

We need to reach into our imaginations and imagine a better reality and how we might achieve it. Buddhism focuses on compassion and that is so important but it is not the answer. I like Confuseousism but Confurseous was a chauvinist and that is not acceptable. Science without education in ethics and morality is not the final answer either.

I have given thought to the end of life as we know it and what might we preserve for an unknown future that may once again raise a civilization. What do we want that future race to know so they have the best chance of manifesting a good life for our planet?