Under jungle rules, young females are considered property and part of 'to the victor, the spoils, rule.'Stop trashing 'jungle rules' - they worked for 300,000,000 years before we bulldozed the jungles. We didn't discover co-operation; social animals predate us by a wide margin — Vera Mont
Under jungle rules, young females are considered property and part of 'to the victor, the spoils, rule.' — universeness
I don't think our species is in competition, for the credit of which species discovered co-operation! — universeness
You take credit for something ants perfected 150,000,000 million years ago, and we still haven't managed to get our heads around how it's supposed to work?for the credit of which species discovered co-operation! — universeness
That's back on May 9, I don't know how many since.There have been more than 200 mass shootings across the US so far this year, according to the Gun Violence Archive, which defines a mass shooting as an incident in which four or more people are injured or killed. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081
Under jungle rules, young females are considered property and part of 'to the victor, the spoils, rule.'
— universeness
In what species? Not elephants, crows, dolphins or or cheetahs. The norm in many human situations today, of course - not so much spoils as commodities. — Vera Mont
What are you typing about? What does that point have to do with my point that some human beings have to stop living their lives and affecting the lives of others so negatively, because, THEY choose to behave like we STILL, ALL, have to live under 'jungle rules.'I don't think our species is in competition, for the credit of which species discovered co-operation!
— universeness
Haven't you noticed the armed conflicts that took out a few million people? Or the ones that are currently taking out hundreds of thousands and might end the whole sheBANG if it gets out of hand? — Vera Mont
Are you suggesting that humans would be able to create a better society, if we lived like insect species such as ants? I value human co-operation over human war but I don't think we are going to create a better future for the human race by emulating ant society or any other insect or animal society I am familiar with.for the credit of which species discovered co-operation!
— universeness
You take credit for something ants perfected 150,000,000 million years ago, and we still haven't managed to get our heads around how it's supposed to work?
There have been more than 200 mass shootings across the US so far this year, according to the Gun Violence Archive, which defines a mass shooting as an incident in which four or more people are injured or killed. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081
That's back on May 9, I don't know how many since. — Vera Mont
Except not jungle-dwelling human societies did live that way. What's recorded in history is conflict between civilizations, which all had a strongly united internal structure - though the co-operation was usually coerced to some extent by an elite.My main point is that under 'jungle rules,' that are recorded as in common practice amongst ancient homo sapiens, such as perpetually warring with every 'group' of humans your group comes across, obtaining as much resources as you can, regardless of how much you actually need or how badly your actions affect the well being of others, IS imo, a very bad way to behave, and it always has been. — universeness
What the hell have groupings of elephants, crows, dolphins or cheetahs got to do with that point? — universeness
Are you suggesting that humans would be able to create a better society, if we lived like insect species such as ants? — universeness
Except not jungle-dwelling human societies did live that way. What's recorded in history is conflict between civilizations, which all had a strongly united internal structure - though the co-operation was usually coerced to some extent by an elite. — Vera Mont
What the hell have groupings of elephants, crows, dolphins or cheetahs got to do with that point?
— universeness
The FACT that humans didn't DISCOVER co-operation. And are not particularly good at it in large numbers. — Vera Mont
So out of a planet of 8 billion self-aware, sentient, conscious humans, you have concluded that the utter vastness of the universe with more planets, than there are grains of sand on Earth, can only handle 1% of that (around, 80 million, which is around the current pop of Germany).Human would be able create a better society is 99% of of us were not here. — Vera Mont
Perhaps it's just the Earth you are restricting all our possible futures to, and that any extraterrestrial resources available, will permanently be inaccessible to us. — universeness
Are you suggesting that humans would be able to create a better society, if we lived like insect species such as ants? — universeness
No, the ants are simply an illustration of how old the concept [of social species] is. Human would be able create a better society if 99% of of us were not here. — Vera Mont
Would you consider the time implied in the sentence below, to be a time when all homo sapiens alive then, were having a far superior experience of life as a human, than the average human, living on planet Earth is experiencing today, purely because there were a lot fewer of us then? — universeness
This seems to be a very obvious truth but the truths that apply most widely are often the most obvious, even though they remain a 'struggle' for most humans alive today. Sure, it's not JUST about water, but its ALSO about water. The biggest truth about culturalism is that it does not affect your need for water, food, shelter, warmth, etc. All people from all cultures have identical basic needs. — universeness
In fact, those basics are needed by all fauna on the planet.
People mostly war over basic resources. But the nefarious want to be 'EXCESSIVELY RICH,' in resources. They don't want a little gold, they want to be surrounded by gold and be recognised as 'god like' and have every whim serviced and own an excessive glut of all resources and have every urge satisfied and be loved and feared by everyone, etc etc. It's either YOUR WAY or there will be HELL TO PAY!
Somewhat, but what is more important, is the basic understanding that Planet Earth has plenty of water. The rest is just bad behaviour.
Another obvious but absolutely great, vital question. MY HONEST answer is to do EXACTLY what we are doing now, 'keep fighting the good fight to make things better.'
War is the survival of the fittest strategy that was an imperative under jungle rules, but we discovered that it's not the only way to survive. We discovered that co-operation and negotiation, CAN produce better results for all stakeholders. But the nefarious want INSTANT gratification and permanent recognition of their superiority under the traditional jungle rules. We continue to struggle against them and I think we have been gaining ground against them for the past 10,000 years.
The progress has been very slow and it will probably continue to be so, but imo, success is inevitable.
I think these questions are for each of us to answer individually. I can give you the core of my answers.
Socialism and secular humanism and the details involved in them would make up the core of my answer to all 3 questions above. I have not came across any better labels for what I think would be a 'better way' for humans to live and treat each other.
Under jungle rules, young females are considered property and part of 'to the victor, the spoils, rule.'— universeness
In what species? Not elephants, crows, dolphins or or cheetahs. The norm in many human situations today, of course - not so much spoils as commodities.
---Vera Mont — Vera Mont
Antagonistic relationships are found not only between animals of different species, but within species too. Intraspecific conflict occurs when the interests of individual animals within a given species conflict. This happens when there is a limited supply of a valuable resource. For example, some areas are better than others for finding food, shelter from the elements, places to hide from predatory animals, or opportunities for attracting a mate. Conflicts occur frequently because animals of the same species have very similar requirements for their wellbeing, survival and reproduction, yet their demand for those resources exceed what is available.1 Animals also compete with each other for access to mates, social status, food, and parental care. The conflict may be direct, with animals fighting each other (called “interference”) or indirect, with animals competing without fighting each other directly (called “exploitation”).2 Both forms of competition can be harmful. Fighting can result in injury or death. Even if animals aren’t directly harmed by others, they can be harmed by deprivation.
Humans are not equal to ants or dinosaurs. — Athena
Fighting can result in injury or death. Even if animals aren’t directly harmed by others, they can be harmed by deprivation.
No, they really can't. That was civilized Europeans. Some African nations did take their captured enemies as slaves, which had nothing to do with commerce or skin-colour, though they were often ransomed back by their own nation. They didn't live in the jungle, for the most part.By jungle rules, Whites can enslave dark-skinned people, and kill those who do not stay in their place. — Athena
The US did not begin with the understanding of being born equal and equality under the law as we have today. — Athena
They just found it expedient never to implement it.We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Yes, the US started with exactly that understanding.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
They just found it expedient never to implement it. — Vera Mont
the long-standing work of white women who sustained racial segregation and nurtured both massive support for the Jim Crow order in the interwar period and who transformed support into massive resistance after World War II. Support for the segregated state existed among everyday people. Maintaining racial segregation was not solely or even primarily the work of elected officials. Its adherents sustained the system with quotidian work, and on the ground, it was often white women who shaped and sustained white supremacist politics. — Elizabeth Gillespie McRae
think you would need to go back to the single celled organism, co-operating with various bacteria and creating a symbiosis which still exists today. Those cells exist in humans, so from that angle, cooperation plays a big role in why we exist at all. — universeness
Oh my goodness what a delicious argument. The South used the Bible to defend slavery. Both the North and the South thought they were defending the will of God, making the civil war a very deadly war. — Athena
Not merely encouraged but often mandated by the elite, who sent many of their own children to Europe for their education. The FF's had had that classical education themselves. https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/classical-education-founding-fathers/In the beginning of US democracy, there was a high illiteracy rate, — Athena
This is not the peaceful democracy we defended in two world wars, — Athena
That's not including most of the campaigns against First Nations and all the little secret and overt interventions in other nations' colonial conflicts and not even mentioning conflicts between farmers and ranchers, disputes over water rights, labour wars,1775–1783 American Revolution English Colonists vs. Great Britain
1798–1800 Franco-American Naval War United States vs. France
1801–1805; 1815 Barbary Wars United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli
1812–1815 War of 1812 United States vs. Great Britain
1813–1814 Creek War United States vs. Creek Nation
1836 War of Texas Independence Texas vs. Mexico
1846–1848 Mexican-American War United States vs. Mexico
1861–1865 U.S. Civil War Union vs. Confederacy
1898 Spanish-American War United States vs. Spain
police violence against protesters of every kind... and then there's all the gangs and outlaws.In the 1800s and early 1900s, picketers often faced the risk of being beaten up by police or thugs recruited by management. “The U.S. has one of the most violent labor histories in the world,” says Judith Stepan-Norris,
Nixon had laid some good ground-work for that, undoing whatever Johnson had been able accomplish to mitigate the enormous gulf that had always existed and is never going away. The United States has never been anything but a figment of wishful thinking. When Bobby Kennedy was killed, the excellent film director, Norman Jewison, felt he had to leave the country, saying, "How can America be so violent that it destroys its own best people?"Trump divided us as much as the Civil War and we remain glaring aware of the divide. — Athena
We have to intellectually understand the benefits and reality of symbiosis before we can put that in our lives. — Athena
Whereas, it wasn't even remotely about religion or any kind of moral principle. (Lincoln: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.")
The real issues were political and economic. And this fundamental, foundational schism was built into the original federation by those very same men who signed that document which began as idealistic and wound up as fraudulent. That expedient compromise has cost a whole lot of powerless people a whole lot of blood and pain and grief. — Vera Mont
A reminder the guardians of truth are confusion and paradox. While the list of violence can be used to argue we have never had peace, it can also be argued the US was nothing like the Military Industrial Complex it is today. We held a sense of destiny but like Israel, we had limits. For the most part, we depended on the oceans to prevent us from being attacked and we were totally unprepared for the world wars. The military technology of WWII and the need for oil, changed all that. I think to deny the Military Industrial Complex of the US today is extremely different from our past, is a huge mistake.Not merely encouraged but often mandated by the elite, who sent many of their own children to Europe for their education. The FF's had had that classical education themselves. https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/classical-education-founding-fathers/
and did nothing to enable their fellow Americans.[/
That goes back to the story of who is one of us and who is not. The Iroquois were willing to be one of us because the culture recognized the benefit of getting along and not all tribes have done so. In some areas of the world, cannibalism was practiced. That is a pretty serious notion of who is one of us and who is not. Closer to home, how did the Europeans think? In ancient times, the Greeks took control of a region with Jews and they had a terrible fight because the Greeks based hiring on merit and the Jews were totally locked into inherited positions. Our democracy is a new social order, Not the social order of the Bible. The philosophy behind democracy does not go with the notion that God determines who will be masters and who will be slaves/servants and Europe was Christian with a hierarchy of power and authority, NOT a democracy.
Today many Christians believe in a super-loving God, not the jealous, revengeful, fearsome, and punishing God of our European history. I am saying these things because you mentioned the FF and the rich sending their children to Europe to be educated. I think we need to understand the mentality of the past, to understand our present clashes of values and how to manifest a better nation. I also want to point out, Thomas Jefferson devoted his life to mass education, believing that was the only way to have a successful democracy.
We might keep in mind, Martin Luther thought God decided who would be a master or a slave. Look we had a famous Black man named Martin Luther King. KING?! That is not a democratic concept and the Bible is a book of kings and slaves. It is a different understanding of reality than the secular Greeks who gave people jobs based on merit. We are just beginning to attack this ugly problem with talk about how the privileged and how that privilege is undemocratic and does not manifest the ideal of equality.
We are trying to have a democracy without a good grasp of people not being born to rule over others, but bred to have the position of power and authority.
This is not the peaceful democracy we defended in two world wars,
— Athena
Of course not!
Aside from the fact that America didn't actually need to defend itself in either of those wars (Hawaii wasn't a state then; it was occupied territory)
that peaceful democracy never existed in the physical universe.
1775–1783 American Revolution English Colonists vs. Great Britain
1798–1800 Franco-American Naval War United States vs. France
1801–1805; 1815 Barbary Wars United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli
1812–1815 War of 1812 United States vs. Great Britain
1813–1814 Creek War United States vs. Creek Nation
1836 War of Texas Independence Texas vs. Mexico
1846–1848 Mexican-American War United States vs. Mexico
1861–1865 U.S. Civil War Union vs. Confederacy
1898 Spanish-American War United States vs. Spain
That's not including most of the campaigns against First Nations and all the little secret and overt interventions in other nations' colonial conflicts and not even mentioning conflicts between farmers and ranchers, disputes over water rights, labour wars,
In the 1800s and early 1900s, picketers often faced the risk of being beaten up by police or thugs recruited by management. “The U.S. has one of the most violent labor histories in the world,” says Judith Stepan-Norris, police violence against protesters of every kind... and then there's all the gangs and outlaws.
I'm convinced that you care deeply and passionately about education. But if you're not prepared to teach young people about their own history - the unspun, unrevised, unvarnished, unedited truth - no substantial problem will ever be addressed. You may as well leave the lobbyists, jingoists and propagandists take over.
From all of the days of your life Athena, what events/realisations/empathy/anger/shame/joy do your remember most? — universeness
I can't see that at all. Perhaps I would have fought with them/for them against the Romans, but that's about it.PS Germany is our soul mate and historic partner who manifests our present more than our historical past. — Athena
Thank you for challenging me and causing me to think things through. I might know a little more about history than you think. — Athena
I didn't say anything about how much you, personally, know about what aspect of history. I'm merely warning that, regardless what else is taught in their schools, as long as Americans lull themselves with mythical versions of their story as a nation, their national identity and character; as long as they keep telling those stories to their children, and do not correct the inaccuracies, fallacies, misconceptions and outright fictions in their own understanding of their own history; as long as they refuse to come to terms over what's dysfunctional in their social system and why, nothing in their perilous present situation will improve and there are strong indications that it will deteriorate, and at an accelerating pace.
(and this applies equally to other nations that are not under consideration here) — Vera Mont
The history book you recommend has merit. — Athena
Robust funding and support for that would be an excellent start! (and then find some way to seep-six DeSantis.)Our public broadcasting station is doing a good job of increasing awareness of our wrongs. That is a history book for democracy. — Athena
I can't see that at all. Perhaps I would have fought with them/for them against the Romans, but that's about it.
As a Scot, I see little to admire regarding the Saxons or/and the Angles, that hailed from that place and along with the Norman French, eventually formed England. Prussia was quite an ugly civilisation as was WWI and WW2 Germany. Almost as ugly a grouping as the Spartans imo. — universeness
I'm not recommending a book. Your proposed book is fine - so long as it has lots of company from different perspectives. I'm recommending - warning - an adjustment of mind-set. All the times you've taken for granted that Americans were/are "the good guys" in a conflict; :gasp: all the times you've advocated, directly or indirectly, for American-style capitalism; :gasp: all the the usual accepted fictions... it's not deliberate; it's habitual. People need to develop a new habit: questioning the old verities. — Vera Mont
Would you please copy and paste what I said that lead you to think what you think? — Athena
Democracy is a way of life that is based on Greek and Roman classics. — Athena
Basic to that way of life is secular thinking — Athena
The God of Abraham religions are not compactable with democracy because in a democracy there is no God with favorite people. — Athena
There are fundamental differences separating church and state! — Athena
Except for all the gods Socrates is supposed to have offended. — Vera Mont
It would take a week to track down all the pieces of such a quilt.[/quore] It would take more than time because I have not said what you think I said. When I speak of democracy I do not mean the US, except when speaking of something about democracy that the US did get right. And for sure I am horrified by US capitalism and we need to replace the autocratic model of Industry with the Democratic model. It would help if you asked questions instead of assuming what I mean.
— Vera Mont
Democracy is a way of life that is based on Greek and Roman classics.
— Athena
Yes, you've said, on several occasions.
And a code of laws based on the biblical commandments meshed together with English common law, on the foundation of a fatally flawed constitution and electoral procedure. — Vera Mont
I keep waiting for discussions to be about democracy as a way of life, and they never do. It is like no one gets the concept. The discussion I would like to have can not move forward when what I say is just words without meaning. — Athena
as a democratic way of life toIn general, Ojibwe society was loosely organized, and there were few personal differences in equality except those based on age. Important people could gain respect and prestige as outstanding warriors, civil leaders, religious leaders, or shamans, but this seldom made them more powerful in society as compared to everyone else.
What's left to discuss that hasn't been trashed-over multiple times?Only free adult men who were citizens – about 10% of the population – could vote in Athens' limited democracy. Women, children, slaves, and foreigners were excluded from participating in making political decisions. Women had no political rights or political power. Aristotle, in “On a Good Wife,” written in 330 BCE, declared that a good wife aims to "obey her husband; giving no heed to public affairs, nor having any part in arranging the marriages of her children.
We hold it to be self-evident that all men are created equal, except for those, and those, and the females. And those men that are less equal than these men will be worth 3/5 of a person - with the extra votes going to their owners. But that's only south of this river. West of that river, we'll see, once we've killed enough of those unequal men.What are the fatal flaws of the US Constitution? — Athena
It's not that we don't get the concept so much as that we disagree on the examples. — Vera Mont
Wonderful and why did we attempt to have a democracy? — Athena
Nineteen hundred years of European history and philosophy.What makes it different from the kingdoms of the Bible? — Athena
What are the characteristics of democracy? — Athena
In my opinion, to teach them how both governance and economy actually work, and the true jingo-free history of both.What is the best way to prepare our young for citizenship? — Athena
The title of this thread is Culture is Critical. What does that have to do with democracy, liberty, and justice? — Athena
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