If I found people that like books like me, that'd be awesome. Nothing against Harry Potter but I want more.

Blogging, with my lack of grammar and hard to follow logic, I think I'd embarrass myself more. Nothing is fixed though. I believe I need more life experience.

It's great to have a community of people. A lot of self-publishers too.



I think that's a good idea, to ask questions online. Have an archive of all your thoughts.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Need to do just 10 minutes a day...Right now I am reading The Laws of Human Nature. I guess it is a self-help book, but it's decent.

Is anyone familiar with the Trivium and Quadrivium and the learning process?

Keep doing what you are doing!

• So when you are asking questions, is it the who, what, when, where, why and how? What do you have to keep in mind? Fact/opinion? There's also: valid invalid, true/false, sound/unsound depending on type of reasoning?
• When questioning yourself there is a bit of reflection with yourself and memory of all other things you've experienced/read in comparison to the new idea?
• With discussing, is there an etiquette or a way to do things?

Writing is powerful. Poetry is something I never considered until I took a class in college, though it is what lyrics are. There's so so much to explore.

Like you were saying, getting yourself down on paper and write for yourself. I have a blogging account somewhere... I have used it as more of a journal I do use Evernote mostly for my journals though now and summarizing what I learned that day. But if you got something going on blog it or vlog it.

After you have refined it, go public or something...? It kinda got to be popular too...

@Noble Dust
History is good! A historical perspective is definitely needed! Thank you!

@Amity

At Oxford they actually explain things, such a good professor.

My logic class didn't go over some of this: Lebinz's Law and Argument from Analogy, how to narrow down an argument there's actual steps, explained inductive reasoning a lot better "Uniform Law of Nature".

deontic logic sounds great!

Awesome stuff! Only half-way!

Supreme tips from from that philosophy note taking link... Most I never found anywhere else. Definitely taking better notes.

I get what you are saying totally, I'm very immersed in books atm. It's nice to get your head out of it and experience life too. Blog maybe? That would be worth it.

I know what you mean about asking the author. The whole process is foreign to me.

Have you read On Generation and Corruption? It is amazing how we've come along scientifically. This goes back to Thales. And just what a microscope does in terms of advancement to society. Sub-atomic now and the cycle continues. My head exploded finding out they thought of it this stuff.

MindMaps are good, I like to use them after my notes, but always have a project I am working on so never get to the mindmap. So for example, i'll read a few books on critical thinking and take notes then I have to make a mindmap to see it better. Let's me work with the information more.

That's a good idea to turn what you've read into an essay... I'll read more of that link thank you!

There is a method to everything no matter how trivial...

You've been doing it informally for 10 years... What's your typical study session? Or is it as simple as picking up a book and reading it? Is there any other mystery behind it? Do you test yourself or summarize?

I read and take notes (Evernote) and try to study the notes periodically. I guess I could create a book club. I also found this website where you can make timelines in your books of important dates (timeglider.com) I was a student so it was free.

I was thinking, outside of the other suggestions of fallacies, bias, and videos, the tools philosophers use... like Occam's Razor, or reductio ad absurdum, etc.

Mww's suggestion is good too, work at the -ism's find a few that resonate then look into the -ist's who stand by the -ism's.

Amity has done exceptionally by me.

Thanks guys!

This is amazing! Gobble Gobble.

OH yeah, it's hard. I need a book/class to understand other books and classes. I'm partly an autodidact, I am assuming most this forum is in one way or another.

That one person analyzing The Capital, I want to get there.

I'm going at it with what I can, and people are referencing some good stuffs. Atm, I have plenty of time on my hands. I felt why not join a place that is passionate about something I want to know. I'm at the point in my life like Mww was saying about your age sets your stage of philosophy. I want to learn!

I feel it is my civic duty to get educated, by being frugal and trying to build healthy relationships.

Thanks for your suggestions! I got a B&N gift card hope they are there as well!

Bertrand Russell's book sounds good. Thanks for the suggestion!

I've gotten sorta through Crito but couldn't get what his main argument for why he stood for his reasoning even in death. What I got out of it would have been it would have made him a hypocrite and he stood by Athens even if they wanted it because it would kinda undermine them if he just left with Crito. A man above everyone else.

I'm worried I made Crito worse than it really is. Plus the language was rough.

I am also 3 books into the Kindle Edition's Analysis and Interpretation of The Republic. I like what I read so far but all the poetic and mythological references make it hard I'd spend infinity on it. I still get a little of the arguments and those are awesome.

I also read Value, Price, and Profit 30 pages of dense work. What I got out of that is Marx wanted to have a wage match a truer value, like the equilibrium point. For example, company's sell things for $19.99 when it could sell for $18.67 or whatever. That price increase should go to the workers as well (how they split it up IDK). Also, they only get paid a fraction of their work, which I forgot why exactly. I think he was also arguing is that when a company got bigger so should the wages proportionally something about variable wage or variable value. I think exploitation is a little rough cause when a business starts out or can't sell they would have no choice but to "exploit" but if they continue to do so, which Marx said they did, it REALLY is exploitation.

People had to work more than 8 hours a day and it was like modern day serfdom.

That's why I like college cause the teacher can be like not quite or exactly! At some point you have to take it into your own hands though, especially if you don't have money or don't want debt.

I wish to get a basic broad understanding of philosophy and then kinda see how my beliefs holds up to logic and all that. Try to narrow out the BS, including my beliefs. I'm trying to find the truth whatever that means. At least get a firm grasp on how to live my life. I want to know if I am being fooled or not is my main objective. I suppose defending my beliefs is a bit too self-centered.

Just want to know if smoke is being blown up my butt.

I thought philosophy has to argue at some point or else it can't convey and get people to "see the light".

It would be hard even for someone with a high intelligence to determine what intelligence is? We need like an advanced alien race to do it for us or AI?

In my own perspective, intelligence has to be measured comprehensively across all fields of study/knowledge from the abstract (ideas and concepts) to the practical (empirical), from instinctive to acquired, from imitative to creative, etc.

That's a good way of looking at it. Would it include things like putting in a light bulb (hands-on), working on cars (troubleshooting/systems thinking). Or is it in a purely academic sense?

So really, breadth is as important as depth and depth only needs to be in one thing (limited field of study). The rest acquaintances?

I can live with that definition.

Don't get me started on the contempt he has for Jews. No one is to blame maybe life's hard maybe. All you can really do is take care of yourself... I'm not perfect no sirry! I got an axe to grind just from my experience of living... no matter how flawed. I can't forget you guys reasoned this stuff out too when you were younger.

The irony for me is someone can be openly accepting of gays but not blacks, or hate fat people but stand up for the poor. People are strange lol and Immensely complicated, then put them in a group.

Yeah, I have prejudice against intolerant people for one. It's kind of a "Tolerate my intolerance" You can't win! I rather be prejudice over something you can change like a mindset than something you had no choice in being born as. He has Asperger's so do you generalize about autism off him? I don't think so.

White men get it too. White privilege. I've heard, "Who wants to learn about dead white men? [references to Socrates to the Founders of America to insert white person here]. That's just as prejudice and stuff.

I think in some ways since they have some power, people feel they should use it to end XYZ. Their lack of doing anything might says to the others they don't want change. They have no moral obligation to help maybe, but SEEM in the best position to do so either financially or politically (but at the expense of themselves and their hard work). I think that burns people rightfully or not. There are entrepreneurs that are highly philanthropists so it's not like it never happens. Then it gets down to "You think you can do better?" It's hard!

Like my other post, it wasn't white men exclusively, but I blamed the ultra wealthy for such and such. So I have a prejudice against the top 1% (what I meant by socialism for capitalists, not the mom and pop shop). Who knows if they even are doing what the internet says at all. At some point I took someone's word for it. It's hard not to catch on waves of social movements either. Ron Paul got me thinking so it all stemmed from there and Milton Friedman got my juices flowing. They made such intuitive sense that nothing else really mattered, and it happened to coincide with some of the great people of history. They were all saying roughly the same thing to me.

Thank you for your post!

Side note irrelevant to the question: You are older than me I take it. I wish I could sit with you older folk and learn about our past and just absorb what we are about. I'm incredibly shy and wouldn't know where to begin. I'm less experienced, I'd say than other people my age at least in the realm of working. I talk to my Grandpa here and there, he's a Korean Vet. It's interesting how things were back then to now. $75 a month in the middle 50's for a recruit to live off of. He grew up in the great depression so he'd actually sew shoes together instead of just buying new ones. Makes me think of how much I take for granted myself.

If he is a male and poor, then there's a problem

Well... He comes from an engineer father so he got stuff, but I'd say his upbringing was lower middle class... he lived in a trailer park for a good portion of his life. Still lives with his parents.


I'm a poor (government helps me I'm a Veteran - I feel it was a fair trade) white guy myself so you can understand my POV, and I think some of these white collar crimes are just as bad and affect a lot more people. Like Enron for example. Then the legal bailouts of people who should have failed, and said if you don't bail us out, the economy would tank. Isn't it a self-correcting system anyway? So, to me, the statistic is trying to point blame on someone when it goes all around. America is my home and I want to make it better anyway I can. Express my ideas to intelligent people... and learn a thing or two on the way. I am barely out of diapers intellectually. I'm enjoying the journey. A little politically heated but love this country, it's not horrible and we still have so much going for us.

That's how I feel. Either you are a SJW or a fascist. I hate how it's divided like that. Communist vs Fascist I mean Democrat Republican... I mean blood vs Crips... I mean white vs black? No it's rich vs poor. Take the polar opposites and have them duke it out... The maddening culture.

On education and ignorance: I think he takes the case liberal arts AS liberal in the political term. Marxist drivel. College is left-wing etc. etc. While never even gave it a go. I think HE is in most need of the liberal arts... and a lot of people say it has no point in society or is unmarketable. I fear the internet is brainwashing people because they reinforce their ideas too much without discussion or "the other side".

It fuels itself, and self-fulfilling prophecy it is. It's like what about all these good people that dn't fit the stereotype. Or dress a certain way because it is "cool" but get scrutiny because they dress that way. Life's not fair but life is what you make it too.

I consider him small minded on this issue yes. He's even had blacks as friends (ooooo ahhh) which really stuns me because he should know firsthand that even if a small minority of blacks commit a lot of crime not even most blacks commit crimes like that. I just don't get what he was trying to prove. What action should be done with this statistic? What are we to believe?

Thank you all for replying, some of you have busy days!

So, there is something going on in the black community. That's what it is saying. The rest is left to interpretation? All speculative at that point?

That's really hard to interpret at the first few glances... plus with all the hype around racism itself. It's misleading is that correct to say whether intentional or not? I think my emotions got the best of me. I had a flicker of "hey that's racist." Especially given the context that the stat was presented.

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2018/02/the-race-gap-in-u-s-prisons-is-glaring-and-poverty-is-making-it-worse/

This article explains one's economic class as more likely to commit crime. By my own logic I'd be saying that's discriminating the poor? When it's just the reality? Like Emanuele was saying when you don't like the outcome?

Even in my small town, a lot of the guys (regardless of race) who didn't do too well in high school are on the jail rooster. So, I suppose there is a correlation. Is that THE POINT - There is a correlation?

Some blacks are really naughty is about all I get out of that statistic.

Even if these statistics were true, crime is a pretty broad spectrum. Either murder or selling marijuana are lumped in as crime. Thank you all for sense of clarity.

I think it is also equivocating ALL crime. Petty to the grandiose of stealing a pack of gum to murder, rape etc.

I've looked at the stats a little, and the variation between whites and blacks is under 10% per capita... is that statistically significant to state that about black people? It could be a mere sample deviation. Like the next batch shows the opposite.

It's hard to think of bias as positive, that makes sense.

@BrianW He feels suspicious of blacks and he works in retail. He is kinda saying he has a better sample of people. Would this be a hasty generalization? And small sample size? Correlation and causation?

Or the moment we do.

So you can class a people like that... that's what I was wondering. It seemed useless to me because each person is different. Then, am I suppose to be weary of blacks because 13% cause 50% of the crime? That's kinda the connotation that goes with it.

Statistics can be made up or contorted to the one creating them. So statistics are not definitive it's still saying probably. Then you have to study the methodology.

Marx has a point about the wage issue. Why should a business exponentially get bigger and NOT pay wages in accordance? It would get rid of the minimum wage war. Though if a business is starting out I believe it has no choice but to exploit it's workers, but that goes with the territory. Those that under perform are exploiting, that's our queue to leave that place. If there were more alternatives it wouldn't be a problem. The 1970's you could go from job to job... now there are certain established jobs (Big corps). Pretty soon we will have one farmer doing the crops, one healthcare company, etc. We wont have options... again I am on the premise of unlimited options.

@Jake I say stop buying their stuff too (guilty as charged). We've had these big corporations since I was little, and nothing has changed. While the small business gets regulated to the ground so nothing new crops up. The only way something new crops up is if it's a new sector in the economy (Bill Gates anyone) but then it protects itself from newcomers (buying patents). What happened to healthy competition (dual monopolies don't count)? I don't have many qualms with capitalism in essence but to me this isn't the capitalism that was meant to be, it's corrupted.

A strong middle class is a strong country no doubt.

@Jake As for free college, I dunno, why not make high school harder and actually an accomplishment? Now, hiring you need a BA to do stuff that never required it plus we get the debt. Technological advancement and jobs being SO complicated now isn't a good reason for me. Kids regardless of school learn computers. It just bars less off people from accomplishing anything, and may have to do military service to get college paid for (if you happen to agree with the war then it doesn't conflict). They seem to just water down the curriculum for the sake of kid's feelings too. And at the end of the day what is really taught?

I think it is Socialism for the Capitalist right now.

I say attack the 14th Amendment as corporations are not people... that's a starting point

Hormel (bacon, ham, etc.) used to be a union shop and paid pretty good wages to the local almost all white workers in Austin, Minnesota. After Hormel cut wages, the workers went on strike and Hormel hired temporaries. Eventually the striking workers were replaced permanently and the plant became an all Mexican immigrant plant paying much lower wages for worse working conditions. White workers would not work for greatly reduced wages. Mexicans would because the average lower rate here is still higher than the much lower rate of wages in Mexico.

That's sad because I live near that place. A Mexican claimed to me that white people don't like that type of work. When how you explained it it's because it's way better than where they are at in Mexico. So coming from nothing anything looks good. Illegal immigration is an issue too... taking some of the bargaining power. I've seen Mexicans mail back money to Mexico too. Whatever that means.

So like in India with the grain... their rich class feels there is no incentive to give to their own starving people? Want to sell it to deepen their pockets... I don't get it. Can a business owner say no to a profit incentive? They'll be the only class left though then they'll have to work themselves.

I always thought the worker and the capitalist were important and we help the poor. The capitalist is in the best position to help the poor. We are all at each other's throats it seems. Maybe that's how the evil want it - divided we fall. The worst of both socialism and capitalism.

I thought capitalism was suppose to prevent this when we are suppose to have a common bond with each other (brotherly love and the fellow American). Capitalism is suppose to harness greed "invisible hand", for everyone's benefit.

What if it's not a a socialist or capitalist thing but a question of human nature?

I'm glancing at Value, Price and Profit, definitely over my head. I'm giving it a valiant effort cause I'm curious.

Is he asking for a more variable wage one that's more in accordance to "true value"? Fixed to me would be good if your company can't sell shit or is starting out but the bad side is workers are only getting paid half, but if it becomes variable if doing well... wages should rise. OR is that what he's speaking against? (I'm saying the better the company does, the better the wage. And as the business cycle fluctuates so does the wage) (True value would be like what the actual equilibrium price is not some arbitrary price.)

If you have more efficient machines and producing 1000 yarns vs 10 yarns in a given hour, yarn should definitely be lower in price... but wouldn't the wage too? And the Capitalist would take a hit too?

Nowadays it takes something like 10 cents to make a shirt in India or whatever then it magically becomes a $50 shirt... that doesn't make sense either.

I can't believe workers are getting paid half the efforts... I see the relation to Serfdom

If his math is right... isn't 50% profit enough to be true to the workers instead of taking the 200% pure profits.

Doing the hard thing for justice is good in and of itself and for the results.. no matter how profitable or pleasurable being unjust is?

Capitalists are at odd with their consumers too who also probably happen to be workers.

I'm trying... :cry:

Wouldn't it limit the wage gap between worker and capitalist while also lifting up the poor to be eligible to work? Then we can have more people contributing and not starving? I thought surplus value was the surplus of stuff that doesn't get sold (the article). Like, you make a bunch of bread, not all of it sells, but it goes bad. You aren't really going to make a killing selling day old cheaply why not give it to the government/church programs that can help get it to people that need it?

I thought when you are making a bunch of something, it's not always a 1 to 1 sale in inventory so some things don't get sold (that surplus). While things get outdated (product life cycle) or rot... so why not give the outdated/day old food aka no one wants to buy to people that could benefit. Like a computer, a 2018 model, sits in inventory for awhile it's past the point of no return no one wants it, they want new.

There are communication errors/delays between producer seller and consumer. when things become HOT then they ramp up their inventory When things cool down, you are left with a lot of inventory because there was a delay and no one is buying cause things cooled down. Another way that things get wasted. I'm not saying socialism is better, not touching the money supply. Our excess products.

If Marx was complaining that Capitalists made any profit at all then that's not good business sense.

What I don't get is voting for celebrities. He's still "Elite".

He wants 0% interest rates. I think we should save money.

Haven't been keeping up on him much.

What's with his hair? He looks orange...

Oh god! Well, heh good point in that too. It's a lot like hacking today. Today it does take one to know one in that realm. Plus, you are well-connected with that life... so it's not unreasonable (go figure) but at first blush it sounds so crazy and scary. Maybe we are doing alright in the political realm today :smile:

Yeah, if you've been harmed, you know damn well what is right or wrong. Thanks for your interpretation and analysis! If I had to choose a philosopher, Socrates seems to be the principled one... just a scant understanding. He also was the only to die for what he stood for. Could be wrong but everything is a learning experience.

Yes. Mitigate the costs to society by letting people who choose their substance pay a little higher tax. that's tax with representation. Though in MN I disagree cigarette tax money should go to football, there are other worthy causes. I'm assuming after all said and done it will, hopefully.

Prison has a bunch of stoners meshing with hardened criminal... it's pretty sad.

"Making money needs to come with responsibility and taxing a product or service to resolve a problem caused by using a product or service is responsible."

As much as I don't like taxes, THIS! It's representative too, so it has a good moral basis. Unlike how Britain used to tax us and use the money willy nilly.

I don't think labor should be taxed (Income tax). Am I crazy? I think the surplus created by capitalism should go to the poor first (pay your nation first) then traded. So, we wouldn't need to tax laborers and the boss man only loses out on materials he may have or not have sold anyway. Instead of giving tax money to the poor we actually give them the materials that they need so they don't spend it on drugs or whatever (There are responsible ones). Most other taxes like gas tax are still in effect (I forgot the name for these taxes). So labor keeps his money and pays taxes on products and services he chooses. While the poor get apples and other extra stuff. The capitalist (I'm not a marxist!) has the high esteem of being a powerful force in the economy instead of resented. Capitalism still lifts all boats and has equal opportunity, but we could essentially get rid of the "lower class". There would still be terminally ill people and charity would still work for them.

I was in Erbert and Gerberts today and they sold day old bread for $.99. They aren't going to make a killing on day old bread....

Well, it would get rid of taxes too. So workers keep more of their labor. The only one losing materials is the ruling class.

Instead of giving tax money for them to buy things... we just give them the things in the first place.

It would help because they might waste the tax money.

It would get rid of the lower class though. More workers and capitalists... rinse and repeat...

Damn right Capitalism affords us great things. It lifts all boats.

People are good at different things you betcha.

I'm saying that there is all that in the lower class disabled, terminally ill, etc. I'm not talking dollars here but material goods that may be a generation behind or will depreciate. Or "I have so many I don't know what to do with them" Which happens doesn't it?

Say I made apples, and at the end of the production cycle I have some unsold apples that will depreciate quickly (given it is on good productive days). What's the capitalist's interest in hording the apples when he can give them to the government to distribute to those in need instead of automatically trading them off for more money? Apples = computers (outdated ones for example) = any product at the end of it's life cycle.

Capitalist do play a role but their salary is included already when a company breaks even. IF they do not break even or just break even then nothing gets distributed at that company.

And, I am assuming Marx had a point or else it wouldn't be, but no not a Marxist. The people of the Renaissance herald Capitalism about that fact. I am just asking "What happened?"

Makes sense very well said. Nothing in excess, exactly.

What if it were eating too much? Or gambling? Video Games? Isn't that neglect more so?

Buying from gangs is bad, but if it were legal it would be entrepreneurs. When alcohol was illegal Al Capone made millions and a lot of police died.

It's a whole source of income and byproduct that can help the economy.

The brain chemistry though true, alcohol is the same way and worse it is a poison literally... somebody is fucking wrong here. Either alcohol be illegal or marijuana be legal... It contradicts itself any other way... and I am on the premise of unlimited rights not less.

I mean who will protect us 24/7 from ourselves? Isn't that what freedom is?

Just my thoughts.

I don't know many philosophers off hand (still in college and just beginning to read anything of substance on my own), but in my limited experience people fit into nice little boxes sometimes and it's hard not to stereotype when a lot of people WANT to fit stereotypes. Maybe your just another human behavior and not realIy unique? I blame the culture (easy enough :smile: ). I know I know we are each our own individuals, but when a lot of people want to conform and have similar basic human desires I can see your sentiment. I hope I am doing my job of being unique.

It's kinda gang land far as I can tell... it's which group do you subscribe to then conform to it(F*** you high school). Not what do you stand for and if it is they are pre-packaged. At least on surface level. Adult life is much much better, until corporate gets a hold of you.

How do you account for creativity?

The ones who buck the enculturation and guide their own sails by rising to, then above their own culture. Read Beyond the American Dream by Charles D. Hayes.

Someone told me what do you wear... I said Jeans and a T-shirt... "No what on the T-shirt and Jeans"... I had to wonder what difference it made.

And I wish the need of it weren't so.

Ain't that the truth!

That's weird that Plato wanted an intellectual round table. Intelligent people do dumb things too. If he were alive today would he still believe that I wonder. Some people are good at using reasons for bad or to self-justify... an overly complicated child sometimes. We still have emotions and intuition to weigh. Going into high order makes you a hypocrite because you can't please them all. Wouldn't two intelligent and reasonable people disagree... it happens... so here we are.

Maybe we need an all-rounded person with many life experiences? Not just one desirable trait. A multi-dimensional person that balances logic, emotion, and intuition, Been exposed to arts and science, has been exposed to most opportunities society has to offer. A person of the people...

Late to the party...

So, far I've read the Analysis and Introduction of the first 3 books (Kindle Edition). Totally worth it in my opinion.

I can't really critique it so idk how fallacious it is.

They start with just and unjust. That just things should be done in and of themselves. No matter how profitable or pleasurable being unjust is. You'll have very unhappy citizens as a result of being an unjust ruler. It's an end into itself. It should be done in and of itself and for the results.

Like taking care of yourself, it is pleasurable and profitable to indulge, but to be happy you have to do harder things (brush teeth, workout, diet, educate yourself).

They go into how education, the state, religion, music and gymnastic should be done. This is at a time of Athens. Capitalism wasn't even in the picture.

Another interesting point is mind and body. Mastering the mind brings the body and mind into unison.

I didn't get all the mythology references so that hurt my understanding.

I don't do it justice, but go for it!

"I guess if we really get down to basics it's a greater human being to be moral as we're free - things being optional. To be legal is just to fear punishment. "

That's what I am thinking as well... so striving to be moral is better than to do things out of legal obligation. Not to say breaking the law doesn't have consequences but being moral you tend to avoid what's illegal for the most part (marijuana is my problem) and you get to live a life in accordance to a truer life (a life towards progress). Morals differ but for different reasons (kindness over freedom) but that's where a little critical thinking takes place.

Laws are necessary to enforce moral character. Though not all laws are created equal. (Slavery, or genital mutilation in Africa)

Like a republican or a democrat they value different things but if you really think about it they are JUST (justice) causes with different values sometimes they conflict; hence, an ethical dilemma. Democrats may value social acceptance but republicans the economy (just an example) it just depends on what's more valuable in a given context. I bet neither would agree that they don't have America's interests at heart.

If the economy is in the shitter, I'd rather listen to someone that wants to save money and is worried about the economy, than spend all the time (not saying all democrats do but generally...). Sometimes we can spend if our budget allows, and enjoy government programs. Neither are immoral people as a whole just value different things at different times. Critical thinking is necessary. As Bitter Crank told me do what's best for the nation.

Another topic would be political party bias. You know voting purely Republican or purely Democrat.

Just my thoughts.