Personal anecdote: I briefly met Peter Pomerantsev in Prague when he was a still boy living there with his parents. I haven't had contact with him since then, though I've met his dad in London, a Russian-speaking poet and writer, originally from West Ukraine.) — SophistiCat

Oh, how interesting.
I have only just met him as the 5th contributor to the Guardian article:
How to Solve a Problem: Like Putin
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/670017

Thanks for your link to the podcast discussing propaganda. Will take a look, later.

Well, I've just read the article with its 5 essays plus BTL comments and I'm seriously depressed.

1. Tom Burgis: ‘To confront his kleptocracy, we must first cease our complicity in it’.
2. Catriona Kelly: ‘We must try to understand the complex history of Russian imperialism’.
3. Oliver Bullough: ‘We can deprive him and his cronies of access to their wealth’.
4. Ruth Deyermond: ‘Closing contact will confirm Putin’s narrative that the west wants to destroy Russia’.
5. Peter Pomerantsev: ‘Solving the problem means confronting the psychological grip he has on people’.

Essay 1/5

What do we think happens to the money we pay for Russian gas? How do we imagine western multinationals secure oil-drilling rights dispensed by a regime we know to be corrupt? Who do we think is behind the companies of anonymous ownership, registered in places like Guernsey, Cyprus and the British Virgin Islands, that we continue to allow to participate in our economies?

How on earth can we stop buying gas? Even if we recognise the danger of fossil fuels, we remain highly dependent on them for the foreseeable future. Our 'addiction' remains even if we switch from one autocratic regime to another. We feed them as they feed us...

The other pipe-line of 'dirty money' and the UK's PM blusterings of turning it off.
Well, pull the other one...
But a good point made of the dangers of a shadow global economy.

Sanctions-busting deals between Iran, Venezuela and Russia – respectively kleptocracies with Islamist, socialist and imperialist masks – reveal that this alternative is already taking shape. The leaders of the Chinese kleptocracy will use this opportunity to bolster their position at the head of this new order

We are watching the rise of what I’ve called Kleptopia.*
An undeclared, unconventional war between kleptocracy and democracy has been under way since long before Putin’s troops marched into Ukraine.

* How do we deal with that?

An excellent and thought-provoking discussion, thanks all.

Interesting overlap with @_db's 'Women hate':
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12648/women-hate/p1

Hope you don't mind but I've linked to some of your comments, here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/669853

Cheers :sparkle:

:smile:
The gay factor and gender identity issues are something I've been thinking about, strangely enough.
After reading the fascinating discussion started by @unenlightened with excellent contributions:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12687/matrilineal-matriarchy

It is not something I've ever read about in any detail. And I probably won't now.
But so glad to see an open and non-aggressive conversation. A willingness from @unenlightened to consider all perspectives; others sharing their knowledge and experience :sparkle:

For example:

I stand corrected. ↪Cuthbert Twice.
You have not presented any kind of argument here.
— I like sushi

That's right, we are speculating and imagining. The global prevalence of patriarchy makes the evidence thin to the point where it is almost impossible to disentangle social nature from social nurture. That's why I am as interested in the fiction as much as the anthropology. There is a thread within patriarchy, of virtual nostalgia for matriarchy. — unenlightened

However, it seems to still be about an either/or arrangement. Patriarchy v Matriarchy.
I don't think this is helpful. Indeed, doesn't it play into the fear of males that women are taking control and being less than subservient? Women have their roles to play; the main one being a mother?

The 'gayness' and the horror of being seen as less than masculine. Not to mention the religious angle.
"In God We Trust" - pick your big, bad goodie. What gender must it be to be all-powerful?
The cartoon: "Anyone who doesn't want to go to war is gay!" has a ring of truth, doesn't it?

From that discussion, @I like sushi
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/669572

When it comes to leadership both masculine and feminine traits serve society. The biggest error in colloquial thought is that ‘masculine’ means ‘male’ and ‘feminine’ means ‘female’. I don’t see how society can shift this thought without destroying the truth of these reasonably distinctive categories that shed light of human psychology. I see it as rather bizarre that women who act like men - buy into power structures and act aggressively and competitively) think they are empowering women … they are neither empowering women nor disempowering women, they are merely empowering the system that is already in place.

And it's not as if women don't compete, just in other ways. So I'm not convinced it's just a male thing (which is worrying if true, because that means there's no clear way to avoid wars). — Benkei

I haven't read enough about female/male/other differences.
Not sure that philosophy has anything to offer in how to avoid wars or even domestic violence.
So many levels and aspects to consider in the fields of science, psychology, sociology...

It is one thing to have the mental and psychological power to enhance wellbeing in self, family, community- when it comes to country and global competition for resources that's another ball game.

The thought processes and 'reasoning' behind the violent...how can we ever rectify the ways of thinking in extreme groups? Even on TPF, we can see it play out. Vicious words flying instead of bullets.
Perhaps all this is necessary and who we are...we rise to the challenges...

It is from and to the extreme sections of society that would-be dictators seem to draw and give their power. Until hatred becomes mainstream, or so it seems.
Why and how do we allow the extremes to overwhelm the majority? Don't most desire peace?
Perhaps not...

I think most people if asked, would say that it is young males ( 20-ish) who are manipulated by the more powerful to carry out their fantasies of world domination. They kill and are killed.

the weakness of old men as being incapable of compromise — Benkei

But not always.
Males with extreme beliefs.
Some act as lone wolves or gang up in 'brotherhood' to get attention or a sense of belonging.
Some commit suicide after committing atrocities. Where do you see females doing that?
Think of the school killings - the causes - so many by young men thwarted, rejected.

Women are still seen as weak and men as strong.
"Don't be a big girl's blouse!"; a father to his 5yr old son crying, after a fall from a wall.
The phrase denotes a man regarded as weak, cowardly or oversensitive.

Attitudes are ingrained. Any change can be feared and desired in turn.
As to the prevention of war.
That will never happen as long as profits can be made...
It seems hopeless.
It is horrific what is happening now.
Unbelievable that humanity doesn't seem to have learned a damned thing.
Or if it has, can't do anything about it.

One can always argue that everything is fake: things just become more and more complex and more elaborately staged and larger conspiracies. — ssu

Talking about elaborate staging and propaganda.
This clip from CH4 News is chilling. Putin's War Rally.
https://www.channel4.com/news/putin-vows-kremlin-aims-will-be-achieved-at-war-rally

A national celebration. 8yrs since the war began with the annexation of Crimea.
Putin the dictator, centre stage, cheered on in a full auditorium.
The use of the Z symbol.

Images from this event are contrasted with those unfolding in Ukraine.
Listen to Putin's rhetoric starting at 1:59. The brotherhood of brave soldiers...'shielding each other from bullets on the battlefield with their own bodies as if for a brother. We haven't seen such unity in a long time.'

So it goes.

Entente Cordiale :hearts:

Floyd Robinson - Makin love (HQ)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NfekMAea1GU

Johnny Hallyday - T'aimer follement
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1ohw2OqFQl8

Now I think at the heart of all this drive for competition, the show and spectacle one makes of oneself, is to show ones virility, if not individually than socially — Tobias

How can anyone not see that :roll:
I read your 'show one's virility' as...
What philosophers are said to do.
No. Not navel-gazing.
'Willy-waving' :blush:

But all that's been said and done before too.
No PhD beckons there.

The language of war, the movements of its pieces, the dancing of thr protagonists, are all sexually tinged metaphors. — Tobias

Yeah, baby :cool:
You got it :up: :party:

It is off topic but may ask you what your PhD is about? I am interested — Tobias

Well, not to give the game away too much...
It includes: 1. quantitative and 2. qualitative analyses, concerning correlational coefficients and company.

My worldwide tour will be sponsored by Durex and Dulux and maybe another D, yet to be confirmed.
I do like my 3D's.

1. A cunting counting game of snakes and ladders.
The roll of a dice deciding direction of play and consequences.
Up/down. Short/ long. Bold/ bendy.
Until when...hmmm...dunno. I'm absolutely determined to be sexy flexi. With slow hands.

The nitty-gritty bits are coming along spicily, thanks.
* whispers, come in close.....no, CLOSER...*

Ingredients and Methodology

Poly-synthetic orgasmic Organic Orrific Polyfilla ( POOP) to smooth over polytishans cracks.
Sprayed with Luminol, a floating fluorescency will then highlight [ fill in the blanks ].

It is assumed that polytitians will be somewhat paranoid.
Steps taken to ensure the process is perfectly...hmmm...processed, include:
Beauty parlours, flight stimulators simulators, free freely spiked snorts shorts.
High-class masseurses doing the necessary with extras.
Last but not least - the Sunbed Solarium. The tube-y tantricksters telling the truth.

2. Quality street. A Global Event.
I will have direct 1:1 intimate intricate sexual relations serious discussions with a random sample of politicians, leaders, oligarchs...any old rich guy with beans to spill.
In-flight or otherwise. Hmmm. Space travel. Maybe.
Risquy recordings of...

Oh, hang on. Best stop there. I think I might have divulged too much already.
Hope I don't have to return my Durex and Dulux samples :scream:
Second-hand painted plastic for sale, anyone? :chin:

Should be a killer :wink:

I firmly believe that sexual frustration is at the root of all wars started by men.
— Amity

Based on what exactly? That sounds utterly ridiculous and I don’t really understand the obsession with the idea that sexual relations are somehow inextricably entwined with violence/war. — I like sushi

Ah, now you got me. As an absolutely firm believer, it is an absolute leap of faith; no evidence required.
Although...given my compulsive obsession...
I might just fly off on a world-wide tour; its leaders, past, present and future.
A close and careful encounter with heads and balls should do the trick. So I hear.
Yup. PhD in the post. Yes indeedy :nerd:

Thanks for sharing :heart:

Give A Little Bit - Supertramp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA7JY1OoxnU

There's no longer interest in getting food to our Afghanistan "friends" because there's no more arms sales related to the issue. — boethius

That just isn't true. Read, listen and learn.

Take from the hungry to feed the starving’: UN faces awful dilemma
Agencies forced to cut back aid in Yemen, Afghanistan, South Sudan and Ethiopia despite growing need as funds go to Ukraine

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/17/hungry-starving-aid-agency-face-dilemma-ukraine-yemen-ethiopia-sudan

and here:
https://www.channel4.com/news/youre-asking-me-to-choose-which-children-live-and-which-children-die-says-wfp-head

A roughly remembered quote from the 3min segment:
" No child should die from starvation today, given the 430 trillions of dollars around the world".

It seemed more like self-preservation at the time. Nothing brave at all there. — Olivier5

Self-preservation necessarily comes first so that difficult and brave choices can be made.
To take time to assess the dangers; real and potential for all concerned.
Self-preservation means you live on. Your girlfriend didn't. Is that why you say you failed her?

It seems to me that you had to choose to protect your own mental/physical health and emotional wellbeing knowing that you would have to live with the consequences.
Her suicide, the guilt, the memories, the emotional or psychological scarring.
That takes courage.

... it is meant to scar others permanently. And it does. The suicide of a loved one is not something one can forget. — Olivier5

I hope you had and still have support from family, friends or any other caring and good listener...
:sparkle:

In a matriarchal society would women end up being the nasty ones on account of having power or would the world be kinder on account of women being in charge? — Cuthbert

Good question.
We could look at where in the world women currently have power, or have had power as a leader.
How did their countries and people fare? Well, bad, better, worse...what are the criteria?

Thatcher in the UK was a bit of a bitch with her:
"There's no such thing as society".

Perhaps the problem lies more in only having one charismatic leader whose power goes to their head.
Would a woman be more cooperative and listen...take note...and then do what the hell she liked?

Do women in charge tend to want progress and growth...?
Are they more open to reason? Some would say that females are too emotional to lead...

Do they not even recognise the emotions that men have?
Fear and desire prime motivators for all...

Is there a female leader you admire? And why?

Finding a convincing explanation for the historical rise of fascism is an important task, still unfinished I think.
— Olivier5

:fire: that is something I have been fascinated by in recent years. I have researched it a lot and have come to the same conclusion. There are some good theories, but recent events have put some of them into question. — _db

What are the theories and how does the current situation make you question them?

I agree it's a fascination. Fascism and would-be dictators, the prevention of.
Is it possible?
Another discussion, perhaps. But in the meantime...

***

What are the characteristics of a dictatorship or someone who aspires to such?

A dictatorship is a government system that concentrates all power in a single person or group , who exercises absolute control by force or fraud, without respecting democratic constitutional principles and repressing individual freedoms .

The main types of dictatorships are:
1/4 Authoritarian:
Authoritarian leaders often come to power through democratic elections and, during their tenure, use force or fraud to perpetuate themselves in power, restrict civil liberties, and view any confrontation as an act of conspiracy...

Some examples of dictatorships throughout world history are:

The totalitarian dictatorship of Adolf Hitler in Germany , from 1933 to 1945.
The dictatorship of Francisco Franco in Spain , from 1939 to 1975.
The fascist dictatorship of Benito Mussolini in Italy , from 1943 to 1945.
The totalitarian dictatorship in the People’s Republic of China , from 1949 to the present.
The totalitarian dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet in Chile , from 1973 to 1990.
The military dictatorship in Argentina , from 1976 to 1983. — Types and Characteristics of Dictatorship with Examples

So, given a short-list we should be able to connect the dots, no?
What attributes do they have in common? What immediately stands out?
What about drawing a Venn diagram...
I haven't analysed any of the above but my feeling is:

It's about maintenance of perpetual power by a certain kind of regressive, repressive male, no?
I know that's a simplification but a useful start to another necessary discussion, perhaps...

And of course the pregnant mother in Mariupol carried on a stretcher who then dies along with the unborn child is also used as propaganda. It naturally evokes strong feelings. — ssu

It might well be used as propaganda.
However, at the time it was filmed and photographed it evoked strong feelings because it was in the moment and real. We could all see the effects of war. The bombing of a maternity hospital.

The other picture was of a pregnant woman, shocked as she crosses the rubble of war.
Also used as propaganda.
This time as 'Fake News' - the spin by the Russian embassy.
The whole thing was staged.

Not so.

Let’s take their claims one by one. Marianna Podgurskaya, the woman they claim to be a crisis actor, is indeed a beauty influencer who actually lives in Mariupol. Multiple recent images show she’s heavily pregnant, which is why she’d be at a maternity hospital yesterday,” he tweeted, sharing photos from Podgurskaya’s social media accounts. — Daily Wire: Twitter Deletes Russian Embassy U.K. Tweets Claiming Maternity Hospital Was Staged

https://www.dailywire.com/news/twitter-deletes-russian-embassy-u-k-tweets-claiming-maternity-hospital-was-staged

Conspiracy researcher Mike Rothschild argued that Twitter should have gone further, and advocated removing all “propaganda accounts” from the platform entirely.

I prefer the neutral definition of propaganda, under which it is not necessarily about spreading falsehoods, but is primarily meant to change minds, influence behaviour, or gain support — jamalrob

When do we realise we are under the influence of propaganda of would-be dictators and fascists?
After the event? When and how do we wake up and see what is really going on, if that is even possible?
Does it depend on access, willingness or new, intelligent minds...?

Putin’s narrative around why Russia has gone to war in Ukraine is gaining ground with a majority of Russians without access to social media or foreign reporting.

But the younger generation in Russia uses virtual private networks and other technological loopholes to access different views on what is happening. Their numbers are still small, but they are a resourceful group who will, themselves, eventually become journalists, writers and artists, using stories as weapons. — Jo Nesbø

The arts and propaganda.
The Best Story Wins?

Jo Nesbø writes:

I faced Russia’s wrath for my novel and TV series, Occupied. The Kremlin knows art can tell the truth about war – and it fears that.

I thought it would be obvious that the point of the fictional world in Occupied was not to say anything about Russia – just as Steven Spielberg’s aim in Jaws was not to say anything about great white sharks. However, the Russian authorities did not take it very well

He claims that the aim of the narrator of fiction is 'to say something true, not necessarily factual'.
Is that true? How true is true?

Nesbø says fiction is not to report on the details of who, what, where and when, rather to move hearts and minds. Yes. But why can't it be a bit of both? Changing names and time?
Fiction is seen as a powerful strategy, especially when readers aren't aware they are being 'propagandised'.

Other art forms in propaganda. Films.
Think America. Hollywood. John Wayne Westerns. Clint Eastwood cool guy. Always winners.
Ideals romanticised. Bullets flying for freedom. Always with the guns. Accepted by some as a way of life and death. Necessary to protect freedom. Hmmm.

Nesbø continues:

Today, the entire world is essentially sitting in the same movie theatre, watching events unfold in Ukraine. But what we are seeing – figuratively speaking – are dubbed versions, featuring subtitles in our own languages. There is a battle under way between different versions of the story, and the best one will prove triumphant — Jo Nesbø- Vladimir Putin knows the power of stories. With a better one, we can beat him -

.

I'm not sure that words are as powerful as bullets to overcome and persuade people to surrender.
A bullet to the head... or a head to the bullet?

Wilhelm Reich says the same. Restricted sexuality gives birth to worlds of terror.
— EugeneW

Yes, that's the thesis of The Mass Psychology of Fascism. Interesting note. — Olivier5

Wow. I had no idea :gasp:
Really?!

Peace :victory: :heart: :sparkle:

I haven't heard of incels in countries other than the US of A. Is it just under-reporting or do they lack a platform to band together? I dunno. — Agent Smith

Google will help you know. But then again, if you don't even read the articles you link to:

I didn't know incel had a women's wing — Agent Smith

Experts at the University of Exeter say a major new study tracking the rise of 'incel culture' across the world could help anti-terror efforts and prevent violent attacks.

Five months on from the shootings in Plymouth which left six people dead, new figures show a steep rise in the number of people visiting online forums dedicated to 'involuntary celibates', in which men discuss their resentment and hatred of women.

New data released by the Centre for Countering Digital Hate shows last year web traffic to three of the largest 'incel' sites grew from 114,420 monthly visits in March last year to 638,505 in November.

Why is incel culture growing?

Dr Brace said people are at home more, are isolated more and are spending more time online - particularly as a result of the pandemic.
He said: "So it makes sense that people will engage with this content more and more.

An ex girlfriend of mine pumped a bullet in her head, making it clear she was doing it because I wouldn't come back to her. That still hurts, decades later. I'm crying writing this down now... — Olivier5

So sorry to hear this. You have my sincere sympathy. I hope you weren't there when she shot herself.
Bad enough to find a body...or read a note...or listen to the words, repeated.

That is the saddest thing about some suicides.
Some know the effect it will have on others left behind. And don't care.
Making them the reason for their unhappiness, their death.
Some have mental health problems. Others might have an immature attitude as to what love is...

It takes strength not to return to a partner who threatens suicide, even as you still hold some love for them. It takes a lot of guts to deal with severely unhappy relationships; cutting out the toxicity.
Knowing what the fall-out might be...

I don't know your circumstances but I reckon you're one of the brave guys.

The pain and the pleasure of being human, hmm.

Rates of youth suicide and attempted youth suicide in Western societies are quite high. — Olivier5

I know. And that is most concerning. For all kinds of reasons.
It's not a laughing matter but my brain did a flip. Don't blame me.
It was the cheese toastie I had for breakfast...

Because we love life and love each other. Despite...[insert everything] — Cuthbert

:heart: :pray: :fire:

I complained that the OP was uncritical of the 'reasons' (scare quotes because the reasoning is false) for men's hate and violence against women. The author _db explained that they were not subscribing to the 'reasoning' but describing it. — Cuthbert

Yes, you did well to rescue the discussion. It was in danger of becoming hysterical.
Much appreciated.

Or are women generally less violent than men?
— Amity

I would say - quite obviously 'yes'. But it doesn't follow that any given man will be more or less violent that any given woman. Take a violent man and you will likely find a history of being somewhat a loser. Take a non-violent man and you will quite likely find the same. That's because there are more losers than winners in the world . — Cuthbert

Yes. The winner takes it all.

Women are generally less violent than men. But the step from there to 'incels are a threat' is a big and uncertain logical move — Cuthbert

The threat from incels is not one of my illogical moves. I do have others, though.
'Twas just the US Secret Service. Have they nothing better to do?

If you don't find a female to be intimate with, find a male.... — Olivier5

Even then. Hard.
I firmly believe that sexual frustration is at the root of all wars started by men.
Why don't y'all just cut straight to the chase?
Commit suicide. Go to heaven. Have the requisite number of virgins. And be done with it already.
Not sure if that offer applies to women...

Oooops, my brain just flipped :scream:

I believe that one of the key reasons why a man will hate women is because of the power they seem to hold over him as sexual objects of desire. A woman can make a man want (to possess) her and yet also deny him access to her, thereby frustrating his desire. Women are perceived to be intentionally taunting men with their bodies, like a carrot on a stick, and men resent this. Hence why men often see sex as a form of conquest, in which a woman is finally dominated and put in her place — _db

So, you give one reason for 'a man hating women'. I haven't read all the discussion, so what are the other key reasons as to why women might be seen as posing some kind of a threat to the power of men? How do they frustrate the power of men? Which men are most dominant in society and in a position to pass regressive laws concerning all those they might fear or wish to control?

Incel and its offline branch. — Agent Smith

Thanks. A long and informative wiki article with 187 references.
Points I found interesting re the ambiguous title 'Women hate':

1.

A subgroup of incels who frequent websites run by Nathan Larson, a perennial political candidate and active participant in incel communities, work deliberately to convince other incels that they are justified in raping women if they are rejected sexually.[36] Some incels describe women's sexual rejection of them as "reverse rape", a phenomenon they consider to be equally harmful as rape.[75]

How on earth can a woman showing lack of interest in having sex be seen as 'reverse rape'?
What does that even mean?
It is not an assault on their bodies, incurring physical harm. Can any psychological trauma be as great?
How would that justify raping a woman? Isn't that false reasoning just a handy excuse for criminal behaviour, they get what they want by any means. 'Men hate'.

2.

Women who identify as incels share some similarities with their male counterparts, such as belief that physical appearance is the most important factor in finding a partner. In other ways they tend to be different; for example, according to journalist Isabelle Kohn, rather than being angry at the men who reject them, they empathize with the men for not wanting to date them. Kohn notes the tendency for female incels to turn their rage inwards, rather than outwards like males.[113] Journalist Arwa Mahdawi hypothesizes that the fact female incels do not go on violent rampages like some male incels is the most obvious reason why female incels have not received much attention in mainstream media.[119]

An important difference in attitude. Apparently, incel women don't hate men for not wanting them sexually.
Why not? Is it about low self-esteem? Or are women generally less violent than men?
That's not to say that some women don't hate some men for other reasons...

***
Today, an article shines more light on the subject. The rising threat of violence and causes:

A new US Secret Service report details a rising threat from men who identify as “involuntary celibates” or “incels”, due to their inability to form intimate relationships with women.

The report released on Tuesday and prepared by the National Threat Assessment Center (NTAC) highlights behavioral threat assessment themes identified in years of research examining targeted violence.

Themes include concerning and threatening communications, concerning online content, chronic and acute stressors, elicited concern in others, interpersonal difficulties, history of being bullied, financial instability, failed life aspirations and lack of consequences.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/16/involuntary-celibates-incels-threat-us-secret-service

:up:
I'm told that ''Right back at ya!" in French is "Retour à vous!"
C'est vrais?

Might come in useful if ever I need to wear a negotiator's hat :wink:

Thank you. I'll bookmark it and listen later :cool:
It might give some hopeful perspective to all of this...
But doesn't it kinda show what I mean?
It's a never-ending cycle. And we are never truly at peace, are we?

When you think that humanity has progressed...
... positives can be wiped away with the stroke of a pen. Or worse.

Bonne Chance! :sparkle:

What a bizarre post. — Isaac

Your eyes are clouded. Your vision distorted. Your 'So which is it?' questions ridiculous.
I've no more to say to you.

You're saying as long as the election was good, you don't question the decisions of elected leaders.
— Isaac

That's a lie.

I am saying that I respect the legitimacy of Zelensky, that he is in charge of a country at war, and that I don't want his job. I will respect his strategic choices. I am not going to question his decisions from the confort of my living room. I have no information, no legitimacy and little interest in second guessing him. From what I can see, he is doing a fantastic job.

Now, does that explain my taking side, or do you still not understand? — Olivier5

I love the way you lie to yourself, adding layers after layers of BS to your own ideas, like a master painter would add layers and layers of paint to canvas. Very creative! — Olivier5

The guy lies and misrepresents others' positions all the time, using sarcastic aggression to do so.
Carried along by his own apparent obsessions; to score points and win an argument.
I had intended to stay out of this, and will probably regret this post.
However, I have something to say; inspired by you and others, thanks.
( propaganda art and media portrayal, perhaps too 'rosy' for some)

***
Painting pictures of war, the creative spirit is eternal. Same issues. Different perspectives.
I was linked to this Assyrian wall relief, by a good friend.
Commissioned by the victors. Note the refugees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oP_G7_4jMk

One shocking photograph of the Ukrainian war circulated around the world:
https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/09/ukraine-war-airstrike-hits-mariupol-maternity-hospital-17-reported-hurt

A Russian airstrike devastated a maternity hospital Wednesday in the besieged port city of Mariupol amid growing warnings from the West that Moscow’s invasion is about to take a more brutal and indiscriminate turn.
The ground shook more than a mile away when the Mariupol complex was hit by a series of blasts that blew out windows and ripped away much of the front of one building. Police and soldiers rushed to the scene to evacuate victims, carrying out a heavily pregnant and bleeding woman on a stretcher. *

It reminded me of this painting:
https://www.dailyartmagazine.com/wounded-angel-by-hugo-simberg/
'The procession passes through a recognizable landscape, that of Eläintarha, Helsinki, with Töölönlahti Bay in the background. The pathway along Töölönlahti Bay remains there to this day. In Hugo Simberg’s time, the park was a spot popular among the working classes for leisure-time activities. At the time, many charity institutions were located in Eläintarha park;
in The Wounded Angel the healthy boys are carrying the injured girl towards the Blind Girls’ School and the Home for Cripples.She clutches a bunch of snowdrops, symbolic of healing and rebirth.'

----------

* Update:

The woman was rushed to another hospital where doctors laboured to keep her alive. Medics delivered the baby via cesarean section, but it showed “no signs of life”, surgeon Timur Marin said.

“More than 30 minutes of resuscitation of the mother didn’t produce results,” Marin said on Saturday. “Both died.”
— Guardian: Russia-Ukraine War Latest News

How would Putin depict that on his wall of shame? He wouldn't.

Let the snowdrops grow...for some kind of a re-birth.
But I fear the philosophy of politics, the history of war, hardly gives one hope for the future.
Courage, mes amis :victory:

Well, I thought that comment of Isaac's was fair, and not unprovoked, but what do I know? — jamalrob

Mutual provocation perhaps. Ain't that the way...
But @Isaac has repeatedly posted misrepresentations.
Even if he has made relevant points, this is what stands out...
OK, really going this time and won't reply further.

Thanks for all perspectives and information shared.
A useful discussion.

And if you really are implying that Christoffer is not "playing out Top Gun fantasies", I think you need to look again at his posts. — jamalrob

Yes, there are a few posts where Christoffer answered questions as to solutions to end this war.
A dream of sorts that flies as gung-ho in the face of his more usual attitude and presentation.

However, my main point was @Isaac generalising to 'people' and the 'Western media':

The tragedy is that people (exemplified by@Christoffer here, but rife in the Western media) see playing out their Top Gun fantasies as more important than achieving a settlement which actually prevents conflict.
— Isaac

Again and again, you misrepresent. You choose an opponent, like Christoffer as an example of 'people playing out Top Gun fantasies...' calling this a 'tragedy'. — Amity

This kind of war of words is not helpful. The tragedy is not here...

The US clearly has a strategic interest in Ukraine. It clearly has an anti-Russia agenda. Negotiating with Putin from a platform asserting that he's a madman with no legitimate strategic interests at all, and America are as pure as the driven snow with only the poor Ukrainian civilians in their minds is doomed to fail, and the result of a failed negotiation is more people dying.

The tragedy is that people (exemplified by@Christoffer here, but rife in the Western media) see playing out their Top Gun fantasies as more important than achieving a settlement which actually prevents conflict. — Isaac

Again and again, you misrepresent. You choose an opponent, like @Christoffer as an example of 'people playing out Top Gun fantasies...' calling this a 'tragedy'.
Previously, you generalised Ukrainian citizens as neo-Nazis, for which you 'apologised'', albeit only after an intervention by TPF admin @jamalrob.

I think you have used the phrase 'innocent as the driven snow' before but nobody here, as far as I can tell, has painted the US or Ukraine in such black and white terms.
And of course, we are not the 'negotiators' in the situation. Just as well...

Again and again, you talk of a generalised 'Western media'. It seems to be an obsession.
A wish to counter the rosy picture presented. That's fine but not all Western media do this.

A fact that the Western media seem only too willing to paint over in favour of the Disney version (bad man suddenly invades united, peace-loving nation of brave heroes). — Isaac

Your rhetoric and misrepresentation are not persuasive.
Posters affected have dealt with this continual distraction with patience.

***

ust for a few members of a neo-nazi command you do not have to bomb all Ukrainian cities... I think we are mixing up some issues here.
Those "nazis" fight in the invaded area by Russians. They are like militias. Nothing related to an average citizen.
In the other hand, we have a population dying in their houses because Putin does not recognize the Ukranian sovereignity. I think this is the worst part — javi2541997

Well said. This is what is important to highlight.

None of that makes the denazification claim valid, because those neo-Nazis are not representative of the people, of the elected government, or even of the military, and yet it is the people, the government, and the country as a whole that is being attacked.

The claim is a pretext for aggressive domination, with a view to extending Russia's hegemony in the region, in competition with the EU and NATO.

The idea (perhaps not held by you but nonetheless widespread among defenders of the Russian state's line) that the invasion is humanitarian or moral is naive. Those are never the motivations for Russian military action. What the Russian rulers care about is power in the region and on the world stage, and they use force to establish it. They're old-fashioned that way. — jamalrob

Clear and succinct summary, thanks.

Thanks for the reply. Best wishes. Enjoy your break :smile:

I don't flag shit here. My posts could very well be flag-worthy. I think the most effective way to show your disapproval is to say it in the thread and explain why the post is bad. — L'éléphant

To clarify.
I am not in the business of post quality control.
I wouldn't know where to start, even if I wanted to. That is the job of the mods.
I don't flag any old shit and for sure my posts could be flagged for that too. ( I tried once to flag my own but the system wouldn't let me...so I deleted it! )

That isn't my concern.

My main flagging experience came after a prolonged effort by myself and others doing exactly what you suggest, to no avail. This was some time ago.

The mods aren't all-seeing, especially in threads of little interest to them.
Flagging a single post is unlikely to meet with any action. Perhaps a deletion.
However, a consistent pattern of trolling and nasty behaviour needs to dealt with, in my opinion.
And that is only apparent after posters in different threads use the flag function and PM.

I have nothing but admiration for excellent posters with knowledge and experience who correct any misinformation and misrepresentation.
In fact, it could be argued that there is a need for trolls.
All the better to set things straight.

After any flagging, I am either told that it isn't warranted or that action will be taken.
For example, the mods are now aware and will monitor the behaviour.

As for any obvious:

place is going downhill fast at the moment.
— Wayfarer — Amity

Then, the mods should already be aware...
That's why I asked @Wayfarer :

That's easy to say Wayfarer - can you point to a particular problem?
It's not easy to fix if only a general complaint. — Amity

Thanks for giving me the chance to explain further.
We all have different strategies.
As a matter of interest, the person whose posts I and others engaged with and flagged is still around.
Still being monitored.
I no longer engage. Haven't done since that time. But others do.

Thanks for listening.

I haven't fully digested this article but thought it might interest a few:

Vladimir Putin sits atop a crumbling pyramid of power
by Vladimir Sorokin

Putin’s end goal isn’t Ukraine but western civilization – the hatred for which he lapped up in the black milk he drank from the KGB’s teat

Some excerpts:

Putin’s favorite philosopher is Ivan Ilyin – a monarchist, Russian nationalist, anti-Semite, and ideologist of the White movement, who was expelled by Lenin from Soviet Russia in 1922 and ended his life in exile.
[ ... ]
In his articles, Ilyin hoped that, after the fall of Bolshevism, Russia would have its own great führer, who would bring the country up from its knees. Indeed, “Russia rising from its knees” is the preferred slogan of Putin and of his Putinists. It was also taking his cue from Ilyin that he spoke contemptuously of a Ukrainian state “created by Lenin”. In fact, the independent Ukraine was not created by Lenin, but by the Central Rada in January 1918, immediately after the dissolution of the Constituent Assembly by Lenin.
[ ... ]
Putin’s inner monster wasn’t just brought up by our Pyramid of Power and the corrupt Russian elite, to whom Putin, like the tsar to the satraps, throws fat, juicy bits of corruption from his table.

It was also cultivated by the approval of irresponsible western politicians, cynical businessmen, and corrupt journalists and political scientists.
[ ... ]
This war was unleashed by a man corrupted by absolute power, who, in his madness, has decided to redraw the map of our world. 
[ ... ]

Who’s to blame? Us. Russians. And we’ll now have to bear this guilt until Putin’s regime collapses. For it surely will collapse and the attack on a free Ukraine is the beginning of the end.
— Guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/27/vladimir-putin-russia-ukraine-power

I'll do it just once, not to convince Isaac, but to counter the misinformation. Anyone interested can read more about those events online. — SophistiCat

Thanks again for sharing relevant information so clearly.
It helps me better understand.

Thanks for editing your post.
The fog of war, eh?

:smirk:

I think I've made my point of view clear.
Did I agree with you :chin:
That can't be right!