Indeed.

You need to read carefully what has been said and not take things out of context and misrepresent.

we're required to pretend they're all "brave, brave citizens" rather than discuss the complexity of supporting one side over the other (in disputes over independence) when each have unsavoury elements.

That's what I mean by having to wear our hearts on our sleeves. I didn't answer because I don't see discussion of it as relevant. — Isaac

Re: ''brave, brave citizens''. Those are your words and not mine.
My original long post, here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/658160

You are not required to pretend any such thing.
It is clearly a complex subject which includes relevant personal elements.
See my post to @jamalrob https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/660109

No, he was driven by a narcissistic ambition to be known. There are thousands of examples of this all around the world. It's just a matter of time before a leader of a nation has the same kind of mentality. — Christoffer

So very true. Unfortunately. The mentality is already there, it just needs the right conditions.
I don't see this being stopped anytime soon...

Thanks for keeping up the good work :sparkle:

Fucking disgusting. — SophistiCat

Yes :100:
But I don't think I've ever heard you swear before!

***

The exchange I had following that outburst:

Hello and thank you for the links.

I note that the first article is from 2015 with a particular focus on a woman's group.
Do you think that all the citizens who must stay and fight against an invasion are the same?
— Amity

How could I possibly? No. Just disrupting the rosy media-friendly picture of the poor underdog Ukrainians being set upon by nasty thugish Russia. — Isaac

I ignored but possibly should have tackled.
Glad you see what I see :sparkle:

I often face it with Russian stuff. I have to show I'm passionately anti-Putin before people pay attention to anything I'm saying. — jamalrob

That is unfortunate but not really what is happening in this thread, I don't think.
I hope @Isaac answers my questions.

What exactly do you mean by 'wearing one's heart on one's sleeve' in this context?
Where has anyone suggested that you need preface every paragraph in such a way, or else you are a monster? — Amity

***

Who am I that I need to show how I feel about things? — jamalrob

You are a human with an opinion. You don't need to show how you feel unless you want to.
Sometimes it helps the dialogue, especially if supported by informed reason, listening and responding.
Such a conversation can educate.
Knowledge always comes in handy when it comes time to vote, if allowed.

I don't think you need enlightening as to the benefits of the freedom to speak out.
A dictatorship kills that freedom stone cold dead. No opposition allowed.

***

Can someone enlighten me? Why the demand for condemnation? Are we here to discuss or just to show we're on the right side? — jamalrob

Let's turn it around.
Why not a demand for condemnation of a dictator's actions, especially in this war?
Why not discuss the rights and wrongs of the situation?
What is the philosophy of politics about?

If it excludes the subjective aspects of power- the ruler and the ruled - then what good is it?
Theory and history give an excellent background but what about the current characters.
The Here and Now. The consequences of propaganda on all sides.

Who knows the truth or can show it in a way that is undeniable?
First-hand accounts recorded as they happen. Like this:

I'm much closer to the people affected than most members of the forum. I personally know Ukrainian people here in Russia who are worried about their children in Ukraine. My wife has many Ukrainian friends in Kiev who are sending her messages and videos, frightened people who are leaving the city to get away from the conflict — jamalrob

We have brave war journalists in the midst of it all and talking to people; people who have just had their houses bombed. Women and children walking or crushed in trains to flee Ukraine. Lives and relatives left behind.
Videos of tanks. One running over and squashing a car and its occupant, others being stopped in their tracks by citizens saying ''No! This is not right''. We can all see that.

***

I don't usually mention these things here, because they have nothing to do with why the invasion happened, don't shed any light on the position of the Russian government, don't reveal what divisions there might be among people in power in Russia and thus how the regime might change, and so on. — jamalrob

I'm glad you did mention the real and personal. It sheds light on the impact of dictatorship and its consequences.
As to how the regime might change - still a matter for speculation.
How important then these images, protests, condemnation and action taken by ordinary people?

***

Do people need me to tell them that war is bad, that invading other countries is bad?

That's where I'm coming from — jamalrob

Yes. Sometimes people do need to be told precisely that. And more besides...
When they are manipulated into black and white thinking - you are either with us or against us.
Who is war good for?

I don't hold with this modern fetish for wearing one's heart on one's sleeve. If I have to preface every paragraph with "bombing innocent people is bad", or else be thought a monster then we're not going have a very productive conversation.
— Isaac

:100: — jamalrob

@Isaac
What exactly do you mean by 'wearing one's heart on one's sleeve' in this context?

Where has anyone suggested that you need preface every paragraph in such a way, or else you are a monster?

place is going downhill fast at the moment. — Wayfarer

That's easy to say @Wayfarer - can you point to a particular problem?
It's not easy to fix if only a general complaint.

To all: don't forget to flag low quality posts and discussions, or let us know about problem members by private message (PM). — jamalrob

Have done.
Unfortunately, some see flagging/reporting as being something they wouldn't do.
They prefer to tackle the problem by themselves and not be some kind of a tell-tale.
That's fine and can work if the poster is open to reason and any exchange is informative; some even change their minds or attitude.
Not so in the case of an absolutist and trolling trouble-maker.

Unfortunately, when posts are flagged there is no space to give a reason.
Even if followed up by a PM, any 'low-quality' or offensive posts are simply deleted or edited.
This means that there is nothing to point to as evidence for any newcomers...or those unaware.
The person has a clean slate and looks reasonable when nothing could be further from the truth.

I appreciate that it is never easy for the mods and I wish them all the best.
Thanks for all that you have done with quick responses when contacted :sparkle:

Returning to silence.
:pray: :victory: :sparkle:

Well said.

And just when we think things are bad enough, look to China and Taiwan Crisis for more of the same.
Somewhere in this fascinating 15min Ch4News video, a chilling Matt Frei interview.
https://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-crisis-is-putins-russia-starting-a-global-confrontation

A growing conflict - another thread?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59900139

Tell me what is the common denominator...?

I'm not drawing from any speciific sources here, but if I find something good I'll send it your way. There are plenty of helpful links in this thread too. jamalrob and @StreetlightX are likely better versed than me anyway. — Baden

Thanks and yes, I've been reading and understanding a bit more about the context and perspectives.

Also, Ch4News has pretty comprehensive coverage. This evening:

https://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-crisis-is-putins-russia-starting-a-global-confrontation

Will continue to watch with interest.

That's what I meant. I'm not a catholic anymore, but I still like a few guys in that church. — Olivier5

'A few guys' :chin:

OK. Thanks for intro. How did you get to know him and his music?
I am always intrigued by that and the endless surprises on this thread...

God, maybe, or your vision of Him. Parents, often. Your self-esteem too, perhaps. — Olivier5

Pleasing all of the above. Perhaps not getting to know and please myself...
Do we ever?

Current pope Francis chose his papal name in reference to Francis of Assisi, for this very reason. St Francis is modern, in this sense, as the patron saint of ecology. — Olivier5

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that. I am not a Catholic and don't have much time for Popes or Saints. But the kind spirit of the man, that's another thing altogether.

Not many folks would understand Renaud's verses here. It's not even standard French... — Olivier5

Yes but still I wanted to post the words here. Perhaps to see how you derived the meaning...

This may be a bit easier to follow. Must be the only pop song mentioning Derrida. — Olivier5

:smile:

Just what I needed; a delightful release from reading the Guardian and politics.
'Fantasmagorique' - word of the day :cool:

Je n’ai pas le rythme dans la peau — Olivier5

I don't have rhythm in my skin ?
It doesn't matter what skin you are in, we're all the same.
We sing and dance to our own music...the rhythm of a pulsing life. Inside and out.

Dedans comme dehors — Olivier5

Dieu a la même peau — Olivier5

God has the same skin?
Hmmm. God is human?

Jacques Derrida.
What's the African connection?

Interesting set of characters in the video. Pretty sure I spotted Dr. Who...

Bah, Boris Johnson is an effing clown. — Manuel

Nah. He is a dangerous fucking bastard :rage:

Thanks for sharing that info. — Manuel

Thanks for starting the thread and great discussion :up:

I'm aware Ukraine now has significantly better weaponry than they did back with the Crimea situation, but, I don't think Ukraine can do too much to Russia's military. — Manuel

Re: Russia v Ukraine.
You can see key military comparisons and numbers in the article posted here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/658241

How do the militaries compare?
Any invasion by Russia into Ukraine will pit the Kremlin’s large, recently modernised military against an adversary largely using older versions of the same or similar equipment, dating back to the Soviet era. Russia has significant numerical advantages on land and in particular in air and at sea, although the Ukrainians would be defending their homeland. — Guardian

...if they want to give severe sanctions, I'd imagine most oligarchs would be involved — Manuel

A big 'If' indeed. See my post above as to why that ain't happening...
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/658276

Friends with Benefits = No Tory sanctions which bite.

... it is a mutual process which has been going on, pretty much unseen, for a long time.
For example: the ennoblement of Mr Lebedev, son of a former KGB agent... — Amity

More on mutual friends and gifts. So much for Tory government's 'sanctions'...
Putin is laughing, and the Tories lie and win again.

Boris Johnson could not have been more clear. “I just think it’s very important that the house understands – we do not raise money from Russian oligarchs.” Some opposition MPs laughed, and it very much is the case that the prime minister was accurate only in a strict legalistic sense.

It would be impossible for someone only with Russian nationality, however rich, to donate legally to a UK political party. What has undoubtedly happened is that a series of people with dual UK-Russian nationality, or with significant business links with Russia, have donated heavily to the Conservatives in recent years.

A Labour party calculation based on Electoral Commission information estimated that donors who have made money from Russia or Russians have given £1.93m to either the Tory party or constituency associations since Johnson became prime minister.

Others put the sum higher. Ian Blackford, the SNP’s Westminster leader, to whom Johnson was replying in the Commons on Wednesday, said the Tories had raised £2.3m “from Russian oligarchs”

[ ... ]

The biggest single donor of this group is the financier Lubov Chernukhin, who has donated £700,000. A British national since 2011, she is married to Vladimir Chernukhin, a former deputy finance minister under Putin.

Documents published in the Pandora papers in October suggest he was allowed to leave Russia in 2004 with assets worth about $500m (£366m) and retain Russian business connections.
— Guardian - Tory Party funding linked to Russia

Russia portrays NATO's maneuvers as an attempt to weaken it in relative terms and NATO portrays Russia's maneuvers as an imperialistic. But regardless of who fires the first shot (and war has been going on by proxy in the Ukraine’s eastern regions already), both sides taking an aggressive posture and neither backing down is the ethical failure here — Baden

Thanks for shining some light on the subject.
I wasn't aware of NATO's broken promises and the way in which Russia might feel threatened.

Can you expand more on this, or where I might find more information, thanks.

***

That Russia’s not backing down manifests more obviously in open conflict and the eventual subjugation of Ukraine, whereas NATO's not backing down would manifest in the full transformation of the Ukraine into a western client state is not the primary issue imo but the short-sighted lack of mutual engagemen — Baden

Immediate conflict and invasion have direct and dire consequences to the wellbeing of Ukrainians than any potential transformation has. Right now, civilians will have to flee, fight or be killed.
I'm not seeing how it even compares...

Putin's aggressive actions and belligerent behaviour are about as far from reasonable as you can get. NATO's role I thought more defensive...and protective?

Still trying to get the current picture.
This article with maps and satellite images helped a little.
For example, the expansion of NATO from 1949 - 2020; the military build-up Nov '21 - Jan '22; and the all-important gas pipeline.

The Ukraine-Russia crisis explained: a complete visual guide
Tensions have escalated sharply after Vladimir Putin ordered troops into east Ukraine. What might happen next?

A map released by Ukrainian military intelligence in November showed a worst-case scenario: Russian forces crossing the Ukrainian border from the east and attacking from annexed Crimea, as well as launching an amphibious assault on Odessa with support from Russian soldiers in Transnistria and troops sent in from Belarus...

What is the role of Nord Stream 2?
On 22 February, the German chancellor, Olaf Scholz, stopped the certification process for the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline in response to Russia’s recognition of the two self-proclaimed republics...

Europe’s most divisive energy project, Nord Stream 2 bypasses the traditional gas transit nation of Ukraine by running along the bed of the Baltic Sea. It has faced resistance within the European Union, and from the United States as well as Ukraine, on the grounds that it increases Europe’s energy dependence on Russia, denies Ukraine transit fees and makes it more vulnerable to Russian invasion.
— Guardian: the Ukraine-Russian crisis explained

:up:


Yuck.

Plus I really don't have enough of an idea what is going on or what Putin's strategy is. And disillusionment now deters me from even trying to find out more.

I did share an article early in the discussion, which I think still applies, as does the video that I like sushi posted. They put the whole thing in context. Characteristically, they didn't produce much discussion, although I'll give credit to SophistiCat for engaging reasonably and critically with them (as I recall). — jamalrob

Thanks. I came to this thread very late and haven't read it all.
We're now on p17.
Can you remember roughly - or exactly - where you and others shared the context of the Ukraine Crisis?

Sadly it's been above zero in Moscow for a couple of weeks so a lot of the snow has gone and the streets are all yucky. My cross-country skiing trip in a week is in danger of being a washout. — jamalrob

Oh no, not dirty slushiness - I hate that!
Thought about water-skiing? :smile:

It’s an abject failure if the American system that Trump isn’t in jail already for sedition. — Wayfarer

Yes. Why is it taking so long? It's not like there isn't clear evidence.

It is frightening to think that he, or his offspring, could win again.
What is there to prevent it?

Wayfarer, I'm seriously worried about the way things are going in this country as well.
There seems to be an inevitability...the roll of lies...leading to the dismantling of all the protections and rights that have been gained and fought for over the years.

Where is the necessary hard-hitting opposition calling out the lies as they happen.
If all the anti-Tory parties, anti-corruption groups, etc. don't get their act together...
A cruel dictatorship will rule forever.

I despair and it makes me sick to the stomach. I should take a break from the news for sanity's sake.

Putin is a major threat because he's a fucking lunatic. To have a former president and someone who might take office again, call Putin a genius is serious.

A lot of people will die and there will be a major hit to the security of the world if Putin invades Ukraine. So who can defend such a statement from Trump? How can the blatant pro-Putin and apathy of the republican party be something the US people would support? What the fuck is wrong with people? — Christoffer

Exactly this :100:

Hello and thank you for the links.
I note that the first article is from 2015 with a particular focus on a woman's group.

Do you think that all the citizens who must stay and fight against an invasion are the same?

As I said, I don't know enough about what is going on...the various political and citizen groups involved in the resistance against Putin. I'm here to learn.

@jamalrob
What's the weather like where you are?
Any thoughts you can share?

The Ukraine Crisis
To backtrack a little for my understanding and clarification:

I had asked why other world leaders let this happen for so long...?
I meant that this Crisis didn't just come out of the blue.
Putin's actions as a dictator - internal suppression and external disruption - led directly to this point.
I admit to being ignorant. So when discussing matters in the philosophy of politics, I have questions.

'Prevention is better than cure' - perhaps sounds a little quaint but if we don't wish our 'democracies' to progress/regress - slide to a fascistic, autocratic state where elections and referenda are swayed, tampered with and fought over, what is to be done?

How do we, the voters, become more knowledgeable and aware of the best evidence rather than soundbites. And if soundbites like 'A Plan is better than no Plan' effectively convince, then why are they not used by the opposition?
The Labour leader (Keir Starmer) answered this on a Ch4 interview - it seems they are above this - they are all about values...hmmm.

[ Unfortunately, the video of the interview isn't available. This is a 25min podcast - an analysis of the interview by Cathy Newman.
https://www.channel4.com/news/is-the-next-election-labours-to-lose ]

***

The US and European nations have long opposed Russian territorial aggression on Ukraine. The US has been screaming blue murder for the last six weeks, which a lot of people say is simply scare-mongering, although it's obviously not.
— Wayfarer

Yes. Words come easy. Some are genuine.
Putin has been a dangerous, now totally paranoid, dictator for how long?
How many leaders have shaken his hand and been showered upon... — Amity

And it is a mutual process which has been going on, pretty much unseen, for a long time.
Just one tiny but important example of Russian interests/influence in the UK, handed to them on a plate by Boris Johnson, the Tory party.

The ennoblement of Mr Lebedev, son of a former KGB agent, who owns the Evening Standard and The Independent, comes days after the intelligence and security committee warned of the growing influence of a “Russian elite” in British life. — The Times - Evgeny Lebedev son of KGB agent handed a seat in the House of Lords

With very little outcry.
Can you imagine the concerns, the Tory media field day, if a Labour leader/government had done this...

***

Do note that Putin also actively encouraged Scottish independence. When you think of it, the Scottish Independence Party and UKIP/Brexit crowd are quite in opposite camps. But that doesn't matter. For Russia, there is no other logic than to a) break up Atlanticism and NATO, b) break up the EU and c) break up Western countries, if possible. — ssu

Thanks, I didn't know of Putin's interference and the benefits to him. Or perhaps I did but have forgotten. Yes, most of Scotland voted to stay in the EU.
Scottish votes seem to count for nothing, and any referendum has to be allowed by Westminster...
The Brexit vote was an easy victory, based on big lies and promises. Look where we are now...

***

Then there is of course option f) Act surprised when you have power outages and blame them on something, the weather, climate change, Putin's cyberwarfare or whatever you can invent that would seem acceptable to the ignorant voters. — ssu

There are always excuses and blame on any other but the real actors. Unfortunately, most voters are ignorant; kept in the dark or don't care enough to see beyond their own way of thinking. Isn't that where philosophy should enter the picture? Or at least critical thinking.

As things stand, it seems that political education is being changed by the Tories. A snippet:

Empire and socialism
The British empire and imperialism also make an appearance. While the document says the reformation and renaissance are unlikely to be an issue:

For more recent historical events including those which are particularly contentious and disputed, political issues may be presented to pupils. This includes many topics relating to empire and imperialism, on which there are differing partisan political views, and which should be taught in a balanced manner.

The framing hundreds of years of exploitation and occupation simply as a ‘partisan’ issue, surely downplays the continuing impacts of imperialism around the world.
[ ... ]

The Tory choice of topics is telling. Why Israel/Palestine, BLM and empire? Of all issues, why are these being treated as if two equally legitimate sides deserve to be heard. Also significant, is the government decision to reinforce with guidance what already appears to be law.We need to question why they are doing this. — The Canary - Tory Guidance on teaching politics

***

Boris Johnson yesterday unveiled “the first barrage” of sanctions against Russian business interests in response to the country’s movement of troops into Ukraine.

Yet the measures scarcely scratch the surface of the extensive business links between Moscow and Britain. From the dozens of Russian companies listed in London, to BP’s 20 per cent stake in Kremlin-backed Rosneft and the flow of commodities to the UK, Anglo-Russian commerce is under intense scrutiny as the prime minister and his counterparts in the EU and America mull further sanctions. — The Times - Unpicking Russia's Web of UK Interests

***

The Ukraine Crisis. They need all the help they can get, no?
The choice to stay and fight - or flee to a safe place - some have no choice.

“If it comes to an invasion, it will be total war like in 1939. The whole country will be fighting back, there will be a massive resistance. The west should know there will be a large number of refugees too, maybe 5 to 10 million.”

Those determined to fight include Oleg Sentsov, a film director from Crimea who became a national hero after he was detained in his home city in 2014 and convicted of terrorism in a Russian military court. Human rights groups denounced it as a show trial.

He spent five years in Russian jails, including in Siberia where the cold severely damaged his health, before he was released in a prisoner swap in 2019. He says he is ready to fight, even as his latest film, Rhino, is feted at festivals.

“I will be in uniform. I have some military training and I know how to act in war,” he said in an interview at a central Kyiv cafe, hours before Putin announced his plans to recognise breakaway regions of Ukraine. “The main thing I learned in this life is not to be afraid. In such a difficult time, I will not be the person running from my country.” — The Guardian - Ukrainians ready for resistance

Brave citizens fighting for their lives.
We look on and talk about it...pretty powerless, huh?

...its the guy's own design. Believe that one's a 12 string, but he has a couple others. Amazing classical guitar player. — Seppo

Wow. Unbelievable talent and skill. It lifts the spirits.
Thank you.

Yes. Got that :cool:

Edit: ah, you wrote more...

The French text is much better than my translation, BTW. He writes in thick Parisian slang, and I learnt English in books. I don't speak any English slang. — Olivier5

I read the French lyrics and nearly posted them but I'm tired.
All kinds of slang slung about. Makes life interesting...if confusing at times.

Fais de beaux rêves...

I was somewhat less interested in ecclesiastic history when I visited Assisi than I am now. I remember the basilica was beautiful. A missed opportunity for my spiritual education I guess. — Olivier5

I can't remember why I so wished to visit Assisi.
Possibly steeped in a religious phase - when it felt good to be 'good' and bad when I was 'bad' ( drinking alcohol, having fun, being that devil).

The tension between the different needs and wants.
Who was I pleasing and why?

Embarking on a pilgrimage of sorts...to find answers.
That's what philosophy is good for.

Glad to find and be part of it...
It can be heaven or it can be hell.
And that's quite all right :sparkle:

Renaud wrote about his own two sides in the following song, implying that we are all part Dr Jekyll, part Mister Hyde. He has indeed two distinct styles: one ultra-sarcastic, and one very romantic. — Olivier5

Thanks again for a wonderful song and translation of the lyrics.
The story straight from the knowing heart and mind.
How very human...our struggles without and within...

'Dans cette chanson, Renaud évoque son combat contre l’alcoolisme.' - French wiki.

:hearts:

Zucchero & Miles Davis - Dune Mosse

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A60xWr-nqv0

Zucchero - Follow You Follow Me
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kipwnQl6_JM

Andrea Bocelli - Con Te Partirò - Live From Piazza Dei Cavalieri, Italy / 1997

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TdWEhMOrRpQ

I visited Assisi once but I know very little about St Francis, still — Olivier5

There was a time when I knew St Francis a little.
And I would have given my eye teeth to visit Assisi...

Andrea Bocelli Devil and the Angel
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eLRzSGHlA5c

↪Wayfarer Well called in advance from you. — ssu

Indeed. And you...from 5yrs ago:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/731/putins-breakthrough-in-political-ideology-the-new-komintern/p1

The Russian foreign policy objectives and it's agenda are totally logical. Going against NATO, against the Transatlantic connection and the EU is obvious as these supranational organizations make it possible for smaller countries in the zone of influence of Russia, like the Baltic States, to go against Russia. If relations in Europe were done on a one-to-one basis, Russia would have a very influential position. But if it has to negotiate with the EU, it is in a disadvantage. Hence the anti-EU stance of Russia. And the anti-NATO stance of Russia ought to be obvious to everybody.

Yet with supporting clandestinely Trump, giving loans to the French National Front and having connections to far-right and anti-immigration / anti-EU parties, Russia now has hit a populist streak that likely it didn't think would be possible. Above all, it's de facto enemy, is in total dissarray.
[ ... ]
Russia and it's intelligence services are winning.

I think things are getting worse, not better... — ssu

***

Now:

As Putin is obviously trying to reconstitute and reconquer the Russian (Soviet) Empire, he truly is the modern imperialist... — ssu

The dangerous thing about all of this.
Imperialism. It's not just about Russia.

Putin and Trump both backed Brexit.
The nasty piece of work, Boris Johnson, is still in power despite all his lies and corruption.
To say the very least.

Rule Britannia.
It's the scariest of times. With no apparent way out...another dictator...who cares little for the vulnerable.
It's all about keeping the Tories in power - any predictions on that?

Covid laws and free mass testing are to be swept away across England after Rishi Sunak won a cabinet battle on cutting the cost of the pandemic, prompting fears that the poor and vulnerable will pay the price.

Boris Johnson announced plans to end free testing for the general public from 1 April, saying it was time for people to “get our confidence back”.

People who test positive for Covid will no longer have to isolate by law from this Thursday – and from April will not even be advised to stay at home if infected, the prime minister said. — Guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/boris-johnson-says-free-covid-tests-in-england-will-end-on-1-april

I'm grateful to everyone who has clear vision and can call out what is happening...for what it is.

I missed this thoughtful reply.

Si l'enfer c'est les autres, le paradis aussi. — Olivier5

Don't you just love being both? :halo: et :naughty:

There are times I watch and listen to this. It calms me, even though I no longer can believe in any God... it's in Italy!

Some humans can make a difference, even if they are called 'Saints'.

Prayer of St. Francis,(Make Me A Channel of Your Peace) sung by Angelina, EWTN
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI1Gst7pEqc