This has become one of my all-time favorite discussions. — T Clark

Moi aussi :cool:

I like every which way it turns.

The following poem, “La tombe dit à la rose” (The Grave and the Rose), was written after the death of [Victor] Hugo’s daughter Léopoldine. In his grief, he wrote many poems on the subject, including “Demain, dès l’aube” and “À Villequier.” Her death took a huge toll on Hugo emotionally and was a subject in his work for years after the death.

Original Text:

La tombe dit à la rose :
– Des pleurs dont l’aube t’arrose
Que fais-tu, fleur des amours ?
La rose dit à la tombe :
– Que fais-tu de ce qui tombe
Dans ton gouffre ouvert toujours ?

La rose dit : – Tombeau sombre,
De ces pleurs je fais dans l’ombre
Un parfum d’ambre et de miel.
La tombe dit : – Fleur plaintive,
De chaque âme qui m’arrive
Je fais un ange du ciel !

[...]

English Translation:

Note that the structure is different in the English translation, so it’s not necessarily word-for-word. You’re going to have to study up on the missing vocab using your French dictionary to find those missing links. Since French and English poems are organized differently (remember all that talk about syllables and stress accents?), translations aren’t always simple.

The Grave said to the Rose,
“What of the dews of dawn,
Love’s flower, what end is theirs?”
“And what of spirits flown,
The souls whereon doth close
The tomb’s mouth unawares?”
The Rose said to the Grave.

The Rose said, “In the shade
From the dawn’s tears is made
A perfume faint and strange,
Amber and honey sweet.”
“And all the spirits fleet
Do suffer a sky-change,
More strangely than the dew,
To God’s own angels new,”
The Grave said to the Rose.
— 3 Short French Poems for Language Learning

No, it's a jingly kind of pop.
— Amity

The title and the first two lines of each stanza set us up for feeling slow and reflective. The last four lines run in the rhythm and rhyme of a limerick (minus the first line). The serene mood is undermined to make it, well, funny. If we had been asked to guess the author I would have said Wendy Cope.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/browse?contentId=49670 — Cuthbert

Ah, you're talking about 'Serenity Prayer' by Brian Bilston. The thoughts just spilled out as I was racking my brain as to what the rhythm reminded me of. Strange the associations... [*]

Send me a slow news day,
a quiet, subdued day,
in which nothing much happens of note,
just the passing of time,
the consumption of wine,
and a re-run of Murder, She Wrote.

Grant me a no news day,
a spare-me-your-views day,
in which nothing much happens at all –
a few hours together,
some regional weather,
a day we can barely recall. — Brian Bilston

[*]

The rhythm of the first two lines in each verse reminds me of something heard before.
Possibly a pop song or an advert...
Something along the lines of 'This is not just food. This is M&S food'.
No, it's a jingly kind of pop.
Ah, got it!
The Bangles...
It's just another manic Monday (Woah, woah)
I wish it was Sunday (Woah, woah)
'Cause that's my fun day (Woah, woah, woah, woah)
My I don't have to run day (Woah, woah)
It's just another manic Monday — Amity

***

Wendy Cope, I've actually heard of but can't recall a single poem?!
More to do with my memory. I could relate to her 'Written Rules' very easily. Women of a certain age.
Almost like my post-it reminders...stuck around the house.
'Don't fall for an amusing hunk'. If only...

'Don't live with thirty years of junk -
Those precious things you'll never find.
Stop, if the car is going "clunk".'

Yep. I've not only got my own years but those of my forebears. Sifting through forever and a day.

I enjoyed the bitter-sweet taste. The '-unkiness' of it all. :sparkle:

This discussion has been thought-provoking and, for me, a wonderful learning experience.
Eventually, I hope to re-read this short poem and try to understand it better: — Amity

There's a free 4-week course on FutureLearn:
Poetry: How to read a poem - University of York

Arrêter! Bugger off to Deep Songs. This post will now self-destruct :fire:

Why not? But enough already!
GOTO the Lounge. It's where it's at :cool:

I remember when I was a little girl, our house caught on fire.
I'll never forget the look on my father's face as he gathered me up
In his arms and raced through the burning building out to the pavement.
And I stood there shivering in my pajamas and watched the whole world go up in flames.
And when it was all over I said to myself, "Is that all there is to a fire"

Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

And when I was 12 years old, my daddy took me to the circus, the greatest show on earth.
There were clowns and elephants and dancing bears.
And a beautiful lady in pink tights flew high above our heads.
And so I sat there watching
I had the feeling that something was missing.
I don't know what, but when it was over,
I said to myself, "is that all there is to the circus?
Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

And then I fell in love
With the most wonderful boy in the world.
We would take long walks by the river or just sit for hours gazing into each other's eyes.
We were so very much in love.
Then one day he went away and I thought I'd die, but I didn't,
And when I didn't I said to myself, "Is that all there is to love?"

Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing

I know what you must be saying to yourselves,
If that's the way she feels about it why doesn't she just end it all?
Oh, no, not me. I'm not ready for that final disappointment,
Because I know just as well as I'm standing here talking to you,
When that final moment comes and I'm breathing my last breath, I'll be saying to myself

Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

Songwriters: Jerry Leiber, Mike Stoller. For non-commercial use only.
Data From: Musixmatch

It just dawned on me that I haven't the foggiest about what's going on. Is this the way it's supposed to be? — Agent Smith

Never mind reality. Sing 'Is that all there is?' by Peggy Lee.

May your offspring floruit like, as they say, nobody's business! — Agent Smith

Well, you can join in too. With your flair for language, you can take the first verse :cool:
'Floruit' - I thought you were flourishing your français but non, it derives from Latin.
Good call, as they say.
Mind and take care...of your bananas ideas... :nerd:

Thank you :clap:

Meaning tends to influence rhythm as much as the other way round, and different people might emphasise different words. A short Poem:
Danielle Hope, "The Mist at Night" (from The Poet's Voice, 1994):
[...]
It's one of my favourite poems. — Dawnstorm

Thank you.
Your whole post is a pleasure to read. I've saved it for later.
I appreciate you taking a short poem to show how analysis can work to improve understanding.
Yours is what I would call high-level +++ :100:
Your writing clear and confident. Your approach to answering the questions :clap:

I looked up Danielle Hope and found more. So good.

This discussion has been thought-provoking and, for me, a wonderful learning experience.
Eventually, I hope to re-read this short poem and try to understand it better:

“Hope” is the thing with feathers
BY EMILY DICKINSON

“Hope” is the thing with feathers -
That perches in the soul -
And sings the tune without the words -
And never stops - at all -

And sweetest - in the Gale - is heard -
And sore must be the storm -
That could abash the little Bird
That kept so many warm -

I’ve heard it in the chillest land -
And on the strangest Sea -
Yet - never - in Extremity,
It asked a crumb - of me. — Poetry Foundation

I love this. I get the gist and the feel but...there's more...

Elsewhere, I proposed a change of the lyrics of 'Yes, We Have No Bananas' for the benefit of a new philosophy club: 'Yes, We Have No Idea/s'.
It seems there are already different lyrics out there. The song has a deep political background:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes!_We_Have_No_Bananas

Compare the lyrics sung here to those below:



There's a fruit store on our street
It's run by a Greek
And he keeps good things to eat But you should hear him speak!
When you ask him anything, he never answers "no"
He just "yes"es you to death, and as he takes your dough He tells you
"Yes, we have no bananas
We have-a no bananas today
We've string beans, and onions
Cabashes, and scallions,
And all sorts of fruit and say
We have an old fashioned tomato
A Long Island potato But yes, we have no bananas
We have no bananas today

Business got so good for him that he wrote home today,
"Send me Pete and Nick and Jim; I need help right away"
When he got them in the store, there was fun, you bet
Someone asked for "sparrow grass" and then the whole quartet
All answered "Yes, we have no bananas
We have-a no bananas today
Just try those coconuts
Those wall-nuts and doughnuts
There ain't many nuts like they
We'll sell you two kinds of red herring,
Dark brown, and ball-bearing
But yes, we have no bananas
We have no bananas today"

He, he, he, he, ha, ha, ha whatta you laugh at?
You gotta soup or pie?
Yes, I don't think we got soup or pie
You gotta coconut pie?
Yes, I don't think we got coconut pie
Well I'll have one cup a coffee
We gotta no coffee
Then watta you got?
I got a banana!
Oh you've got a banana!

Yes, we gotta no banana, No banana, No banana, I tell you we gotta no banana today
I sella you no banana
Hey, Mary Anna, you gotta... gotta no banana?
Why this man, he's no believe-a what I say... no... he no believe me...
Now whatta you wanta mister? You wanna buy twelve for a quarter?
Well, just a one of a look, I'm gonna call for my daughter
Hey, Mary Anna You gotta piana
Yes, a banana, no
Yes, we gotta no bananas today!

The new English "clark" (a.k.a. "clerk"):
Yes, we are very sorry to inform you
That we are entirely out of the fruit in question
The afore-mentioned vegetable Bearing the cognomen "Banana"
We might induce you to accept a substitute less desirable,
But that is not the policy at this internationally famous green grocery
I should say not. No no no no no no no
But may we suggest that you sample our five o'clock tea
Which we feel certain will tempt your pallet?
However we regret that after a diligent search
Of the premises By our entire staff
We can positively affirm without fear of contradiction
That our raspberries are delicious; really delicious
Very delicious But we have no bananas today.
Songwriters: Frank Silver, Irving Conn. For non-commercial use only.
Data From: Musixmatch

I've no idea. — Banno

:smile:
I knew you were clueless! :roll:
What kind of an idea don't you have?

I have an idea.
Let's start a YWHNIC.
'Yes, We Have No Idea/s Club'.
You can be the Founding Father and I can be Mummy :scream: :hearts: :monkey:
Our first offspring must be a song and dance.
Lyrics to the tune of YWHNB: ( they keep changing the words anyway, let's have a philo version)
Allons-y!

.

So its emotional blackmail actually, a romantic extortion, lots of lyrics are like that.

But your right, I will simply cancel it from now on — Seeker

If they hit home the heart, the pain and pleasure, then songs will sell.
I might be right but you better not let it/life go. It's transactional, innit. Love is all around :heart:
Gotta love the :broken: not to mention the wholesome white jumpsacks suits of the Manhattans. :monkey:

'So If you really love me...come on and let it show...'

Love him. — Moliere

Hadn't heard of @Srap Tasmaner's 'WCM' but now I have.
William Carlos Williams: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/william-carlos-williams

I didn't want any bad blood after so much good interaction. — Moliere

No worries. I don't do 'bad blood'...much. Certainly not in this kind of discussion :sparkle:

I appreciate everything you've contributed, and definitely do not want to lose that feeling of poetry, or the interpretation of poetry, in the wacky thoughts. — Moliere

Thank you. I much prefer the feeling/meaning but form is good for me too. I've learned a lot about how it contributes. It took a lot of questions to get there... :flower:
Have placed your last explanatory post on my back-burner...

You're forgiven but only because I'm an :halo: with a :naughty: streak.
Take care :sparkle:

I love/d this song but paying more attention to the lyrics:

[...]
Just trust in me like I trust in you
As long as we've been together
It should be so easy to do
Just get yourself together
Or we might as well say goodbye
What good is a love affair
When you can't see eye to eye
If you don't know me by now
You will never
Never, never know me

Sometimes we don't even know or trust ourselves.
As for 'just get yourself together'!
Then the threat... :naughty:

Heh, I'm just glad there's enough interest here that I'm able to think through my wacky thoughts. — Moliere

Well, I have my limits. And I think I've reached them. I might leave the rest to others. Thanks anyway :up:

Yup yup, true.
...does it really surprise you that a person whose fine without form would forget forms? :D — Moliere

Funny but not the point, if you're trying to be serious - don't dismiss with carelessness :naughty:
It's bad form, old boy :smirk:

.

I hate sonnets. To me, all sonnets day the same thing. — WCW

WCW :chin:
Woman Crush Wednesday or World Championship Wrestling.
'All donnets day the dame thing' :cool:

Trying to make it obvious here how the structure of a poem shapes its meaning. — Srap Tasmaner

Do you have an easy-to-understand example of a sonnet?

What are the 'rules for interpreting a sonnet'?

Iambic pentameter, 3 stanzas. Rhymes as follows: ABAB, CDCD, EE — Moliere

I just accepted that as true. Unfortunately, you didn't provide a source so that I could check.
Do you have one?

I found this interesting. Again, not sure if it's correct:

Shakespearean sonnets are broken into 4 sections, called quatrains.
They maintain a strict rhyme scheme:
ABAB // CDCD // EFEF // GG
The sonnet must have 14 lines.
Each line has 10 syllables.
Each line usually rhymes using the following syllable pattern:
soft-LOUD-soft-LOUD-soft-LOUD-soft-LOUD-soft-LOUD
Sonnets often describe a problem and solution, or question and answer.
The transition from problem to solution (or question to answer) is called the volta (turn). — Sonnet Rules and Rhyme Scheme

Disagree.

Hopefully any of those, and more, given that poems tend to invent their own phrase kinds. — Moliere

Given that, why pose the question of 'what constitutes a phrase?' and the follow-up:

is it possible to devise a relationship between a string and how many phrases are in a string — Moliere

If there are a number of phrases in a 'string', I would have thought any 'string' would be the sentence or more. But this doesn't seem to be the case:

What kind of a string? Examples?

Well, for now, I just mean a set of characters with some kind of single-dimensional direction that has a place where it begins and a place where it ends -- speaking more formally, basically. When I'm speaking as abstractly at the level of "strings" I'm kind of coming at the question "from the other side" of feeling -- attempting to put down abstract theories that provide clarity. — Moliere

So again, a clear-cut example of what your first sentence means would be helpful.
Clarity is necessary for understanding. How will unclear abstract theories provide this?

[...] But one of the things I'm trying to do is focus on the bits of language that truth-conditional semantics doesn't. So poetry, and its evaluation, as SrapTasmaner pointed out earlier, is a concrete topic under which we might come up with distinctions to figure out what this "left over" is -- if we think there's more to meaning that the truth of statements at least. — Moliere

Thanks. A pity that this was skipped over:

This thread might provide a better opportunity for discussing the subjective and objective [...]
The interpretation of a work of art is a good test case in part because, as I think Dawnstorm suggested, there's stuff in there the artist didn't put in deliberately. But it is, objectively, there. Some stuff you find only if you bring it with you, so subjective.

There's also the peculiarity that what's not there, might not be there on purpose, which happens with expression not intended as art too, but plays out differently with art. There are various ways this is done for various purposes with various effects. Always cases. Since it's not there, but the place for it is, this is particularly interesting spot for addressing the objectivity and subjectivity of interpretation. — Srap Tasmaner

Interesting to consider the possibly purposeful missing pieces of the poetic puzzle.
A message hidden from plain sight for whatever reason. We see that in philosophy where the anti-religious had to hide their views from the status-quo for health and safety reasons.
The reader then must figure out any clues that might lead to a new unspoken 'truth'.

So yes, of course, there is always a combination of subjectivity and objectivity in any text; poem or art.
The 'subjective' is not 'left over'.

I think that the approach which prefers to talk about meaning in terms of a Language "L", such that we're speaking about language in the abstract rather than a particular natural language (like German or English or..), would say that the actual sound of a given unit of meaning is not important. But the phonic structure of a poem is part and parcell to poetry, even when it's not one of the forms. — Moliere

Thanks for clarifying. It shows what most readers would know. The sound is the pound.
And yes, I now see that the absence or silence within can create or disturb a rhythm, as in music.
Also how reading aloud, or listening, can provide the musicality and a more meaningful experience.
I found help, here: (included for my own recall !)
https://owlcation.com/humanities/Sound-Devices-in-Poetry

What are the 'rules for interpreting a sonnet'?

Iambic pentameter, 3 stanzas. Rhymes as follows: ABAB, CDCD, EE — Moliere

Those are structural rules, no? How do they help in interpretation? Ah, reading on:

(also itself not necessary for providing an actual interpretation of a poem, which I've agreed is more about feeling and sharing and connecting than this attempt at making something formal) — Moliere

Got it :up:

Poets frequently complain about the impossibility of translating poetry. And one of the main complaints in translating poetry is exactly the phonic structure of the poem, and the relations that invokes within the spoken language. — Moliere

Yes, I don't envy the translator's task. I've read more here:

[...] One of the features that makes poetry even more special is to be found on a “deeper” level. The thing about poetry is that it manages to explore the author’s feelings and express them in such an overpowering way, that it does so with a twist.

The trademark of poetry, in fact, is that it resonates with the reader’s feelings too. And even if unable to fully appreciate the intricate meanings and messages hidden in a certain use of words, readers’ emotions are triggered by a simple word or rhyme, or even by the associations made by their own imagination. — Creative Translation

[my bolds]

I appreciate all the time and energy spent in responding to my queries.

Do you see why, then, poetry serves as a good contrast case for truth-conditions to explore the nature of meaning? — Moliere

I understand a whole lot more now than I did before, thanks :sparkle:

In particular, it'd be interesting to simply answer the question "what constitutes a phrase?" when we take a string -- is it possible to devise a relationship between a string and how many phrases are in a string? — Moliere

What kind of a phrase?
https://natureofwriting.com/courses/sentence-structure/lessons/phrases/topic/phrases/

What kind of a string? Examples?

Would it be possible to develop a logic of phrases? — Moliere

What is a 'logic of phrases'?

Mostly still just looking at that "what's left, if we are able to conceptually "take away" truth-conditions?" question. — Moliere

What is left where... in a poem? What is a 'truth-condition'? Why would a poem need one?
I struggle to understand what is at issue. Even after I read the following:

Sentences are valuable primarily because they are meaningful. Typically, we have little use for random strings of symbols. Such strings, no matter how complex or interesting, are regarded as at most curiosities, unless they are thought to be meaningful. To be meaningful is to have a meaning. But what is this thing, this meaning? What is the meaning of a sentence?

How can we answer this question? The first step is to notice that "meaning", as it is used in the question, suggests that we are looking for some type of thing. But where and how do we look for this thing? You can't touch it or see it, so empirical methods would appear to be useless. You might say: "Yes, I can't see it, but I know when it is there and I know when it isn't, even if this knowledge isn't observational." This response yields a hint: perhaps if we approached meaning from the perspective of our knowledge, we might be able to get a foothold. In particular, if we found something that (a) if we know it, we know a meaning, and (b) if we know a meaning, we know it, then we might discover a way of analyzing meaning. We will begin (and end) our search for this thing by examining truth conditions.

II. Truth Conditions

The truth condition of a sentence is the condition of the world under which it is true. This condition must be such that if it obtains, the sentence is true, and if it doesn't obtain, the sentence is false.

Now, whether a sentence is true or false in a given circumstance will depend on its parts. For instance, the sentence, "Snow is white," depends for its truth on snow and the property of being white. For it to be true, these things must be related in the right way; if they are not, then the sentence is false. Thus, the truth condition of a given sentence S will consist in a relation between the things in the world that correspond to the parts of S. This is often expressed in the following way:

"Snow is white" is true if and only if (or just in case) snow is white.

This seems like a platitude, but it really isn't. The first part of the sentence, "Snow is white", is a name, in this case, the name of a sentence. Thus, the sentence could be rewritten:

S is true if and only if snow is white.

This looks much less trivial. The part of the sentence on the right of the "if and only if" specifies the condition of the world that must obtain for the sentence named by the quote to be true. — Philosophy 202 - Meaning and Truth Conditions

***
Another kind of logic question, grammatical:

Let's consider, for example, this excerpt from a poem by Grenfell:

Those ancient Jew boys went like stinks,
They knew not reck nor fear,
Old Noah knocked the first two jinks,
And Nimrod got the spear.
And ever since those times of yore
True men do ride the fighting boar.

The last line here contains two verbs—do and ride—and I know that do here is used to make the phrase emphatic.
What I'm curious about is the underlying logic of such emphatic constructions. As a non-native speaker, I find it difficult to see how it makes any sense to use a transitive verb, do, right before another verb, ride. How can a verb be an object? Or should I see ride here as a noun rather than a verb?
My question: What exactly is the logic of using do to make phrases emphatic? — The Grammatical Logic of Emphatic Phrases

***

One thing that should be obvious from my approach is that I don't think there'd be a general answer for all languages, given that poetic meaning -- as I've been rendering it thus far at least -- includes phonic structure. — Moliere

Nothing is obvious to me, perhaps I missed it. If you could explain again, I'd be grateful.

So the question would be about, first, what is a reasonable delimitation on generality such that it's still interesting, and not just a set of rules for interpreting a sonnet? — Moliere

Again, I lack understanding of what it is you are asking. What do you mean by 'reasonable delimitation on generality'? What are the 'rules for interpreting a sonnet'?

That's what form does for us, in a way -- it tells us exactly how many phrases a poem will have, and some of its internal structure. In a way poetic form is a logic for answering the question "What constitutes a phrase?" -- and the modern poets basically assert that such formalities are not necessary to convey meaning (thus making it much harder to answer the original question, but taking us back to the original impetus -- the feeling of poetry) — Moliere

I am not sure what you are getting at. Perhaps if you could provide a complete and simple poem, an example to show how poetic form is a logic for answering the question 'What constitutes a phrase'?'
What is the importance of this question, in any case, when it comes to understanding meaning?
Wouldn't looking at the content be just as helpful?
Content + Form = Meaning

Content = title, subject matter, theme, word choices and order, imagery...

Again, do you have a source for your claim about 'modern poets' - who are they and where do they assert that 'formalities are not necessary to convey meaning?

A poem might initially be 'felt' by a simple read; not fully engaging the mental faculties.
However, to reach any obscure or symbolic meaning requires us to go beyond.
To read again. With care. To connect, compare and contrast with our own 'truths'. To relate.

The 'truth' of poetry I discussed earlier:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13562/poem-meaning/p4
https://newcriterion.com/issues/2015/4/poetry-truth

When I woke up this morning
You were on my mind...

But if you would understand a real idea, with what woudl you contrast it? What is an unreal idea - one from the sixties? If you would understand a real sensation, then you would also understand an unreal sensation... but what would that be? In asking such questions one comes to see that the notion of "real" is misapplied to sensations and ideas. Whole volumes of bad philosophy are removed by such considerations. — Banno

'What is an unreal idea'?
That got me wondering if the opposite of 'real' is 'unreal'. Should it be nonreal, irreal...?
Sticking with 'unreal', there's a long list but I've cut it down to three:

1. Opposite of that which is material, tangible, or physical
2. Opposite of essential, innate or inherent to something
3. Opposite of existing independently of the mind — WordHippo

clicking on the links:
1. immaterial, mental, spiritual, intangible
2. extrinsic, acquired, artificial, learned
3. nonempirical, theoretical, subjective, faith-driven

Next up, what is an 'idea':

Noun
(philosophy) An abstract archetype of a given thing, compared to which real-life examples are seen as imperfect approximations; pure essence, as opposed to actual examples.
(obsolete) The conception of someone or something as representing a perfect example; an ideal.
(obsolete) The form or shape of something; a quintessential aspect or characteristic.
An image of an object that is formed in the mind or recalled by the memory.
More generally, any result of mental activity; a thought, a notion; a way of thinking.
A conception in the mind of something to be done; a plan for doing something, an intention.
A vague or fanciful notion; a feeling or hunch; an impression.
(music) A musical theme or melodic subject.
— WordHippo

An 'unreal idea', then, is what?
1. a mental image of an object
2. an acquired way of thinking
3. a subjective result of mental activity

To be contrasted with a 'real idea'. What is that again?

• A genuine abstract archetype.
• An existing mental image.
• A physical vague notion
• An objective mental conception of a plan

Pick and mix. Compare and contrast. But we're missing context. Have we any examples?
Any ideas come to mind? Real or unreal? :chin:

In asking such questions one comes to see that the notion of "real" is misapplied to sensations and ideas. Whole volumes of bad philosophy are removed by such considerations. — Banno

I haven't covered sensations but, given the above, how is the notion of 'real' misapplied to ideas?
Whole volumes of philosophy, bad or otherwise...could be removed and we would still be non the wiser.
Which philosophers are more 'real' than others?

Of course, all of the definitions above come from a non-philosophical site.
Are they more or less helpful than something from the SEP or similar?
Enter 'idea' and you get 1965 hits. Talking of which...

What is an unreal idea - one from the sixties? — Banno

Of course, our own experience/interpretation can be compared and perhaps found wanting by others but it's real, no?
— Amity
Yes. Fictions, or interpretations, may consist of 'truth-telling lies' which (can) indicate realities. — 180 Proof

Interesting. Never heard this term before: 'truth-telling lies'. In a text, they would constitute substantive content (material) but also the subjective thoughts/ideas (mental/spiritual ) of the author.
Readers bring their own realities to the table. All real, no?

Where else might we find 'truth-telling lies'? A stretching of the truth or reality.
I found 'paltering': the devious art of lying by telling the truth is not just for politicians; we all do it.

Lying can and does clearly serve a devious social purpose. It can help someone paint a better picture than the truth, or help a politician dodge an uncomfortable question. "It's unethical and it makes our democracy worse. But it's how human cognition works," says Rogers. — BBC Future

Knowing what is 'real' and how to challenge the misuse of facts...developing critical thinking...having the courage to stand up against the lying and the manipulative...we could all do more...to progress rather than regress. Education right from the get-go; telling stories and discussing them. Pretty much what we do here.

I’ll define “reality” as the state of being real. — T Clark

A circular definition, not particularly helpful.

Expanded here:

The state of being actual or real.
A real entity, event or other fact.
The entirety of all that is real.
An individual observer's own subjective perception of that which is real. — WordHippo

The latter would include hallucinations and delusions as previously discussed.

[...] It's important to recognise the distinction between different kinds of reality and their consequences. For health reasons, if nothing else. — Amity

That's the subject of this discussion.
— T Clark

You stated that what is usually considered to be reality may be distinct from reality as viewed from a philosophical perspective.

Can you not articulate what the potential difference is? — frank

TC either can't or he can but won't.
The question then is: Why won't he?
The answer: 'That's the subject of this discussion. I won't discuss it'.
Why not?
And so on...

TC is having fun. Along the lines of:

There's a story, probably apocryphal, that Frederick the Great once gathered his court scientists and philosophers together and asked them to explain why a dead fish weighs more than a live one. They went around in turn each offering a theory, and once they had all offered their explanations, he pointed out that it does not. — Srap Tasmaner

[ emphasis added]

It is an enjoyable thread...listening to and learning from different perspectives but where does it lead? Is it meant to lead anywhere...increased understanding or confusion? Both and more :sparkle:

As I noted, that is the subject of this thread.
— T Clark

Okey dokey. — frank

:smile:

Did the repetition wear you down?
TC picking up some political techniques; avoidance of questions à la robotic Truss.

You ever listen to Scott Walker's solo stuff? It gets pretty intense. — Noble Dust

Yes, I have listened to some. Interesting to read wiki entry:

From the mid-1980s onward, Walker revived his solo career while moving in an increasingly avant-garde direction; of this period in his career, The Guardian said "imagine Andy Williams reinventing himself as Stockhausen". Walker's 1960s recordings were highly regarded by the 1980s UK underground music scene, and gained a cult following.

Walker continued to record until 2018. He was described by the BBC upon his death as "one of the most enigmatic and influential figures in rock history".
[...]
Crucial differences came via the more avant-garde orchestrations of his arrangers (primarily Angela Morley (at the time known as Wally Stott), Peter Knight and Reg Guest) and by Walker's own approach to lyrics, which involved a cinematic mise-en-scene approach once described as "unsettling short stories, all the more creepy for their delicate orchestral backdrop."
— wiki

I hit on this one yesterday and didn't last for more than 30 seconds!

Nice list. Thanks for pointing me to WordHippo. — Banno

Well, I wouldn't have got there but for you and Austin! To compare and contrast how the word 'real' is used in a variety of contexts is fascinating. I now need a dummy's guide to Austin!
The full list below, I later discovered that each item is linked to its own set of synonyms.
For example:
Adjective
Of, or concerned with, the actual doing or use of something, rather than with theory and ideas
Includes practical, existential, empiric and dozens more.
Each in turn can be clicked on to reveal...yes, even more!
Lost in words, you will never be lost for words...unless you are...for quite some other reason.

Adjective
Actually being or existing
Officially recognized as possessing certain qualifications or meeting certain standards
Free from any intent to deceive or impress
Rightly so called
Important or serious in nature
Absolute in nature
(informal) Honest in a blunt manner
(informal) To be under no illusion, or to be serious about a matter
Not romantic
Essential, innate or inherent to something
Characterized by the lack of artificial additives or preservative treatment
Used to emphasize the extent of something unpleasant or bad
Of, or concerned with, the actual doing or use of something, rather than with theory and ideas
Denotes a humble and unpretentious attitude towards life
In bodily form
Legally, officially or formally in effect
Having all its feathers
Most intimate or private
Still in existence

Adverb
To a very large or great degree
(informal, for real) In a genuine, true, serious, or earnest manner

Determiner
A large amount or degree of
— WordHippo

'Having all its feathers' - Really?!! :chin:

I recognize the distinction you're making, but I'm not sure I buy it, at least not from a philosophical point of view. — T Clark

OK, call it a pragmatic point of view. Philosophy as a way of life...
You don't need to buy it.

If I understand correctly, the difference is that fiction is open for examination by everyone while delusions are purely personal. I'm not sure I buy that distinction. — T Clark

You are right to be sceptical. It is a distinction that I only became aware of as I wrote.
Not sure I can explain but here goes anyway:

The words on the page of the Tao Te Ching or the Bible are open to interpretation as literature.
We can read and share what the words or The Word mean to us if anything.

Hallucination: a sensory perception not accessible or real to those other than the sufferer.
Delusion: a fixed, false conviction in something that is not real or shared by other people.

Both hallucinations and delusions can and should be assessed and treated where possible:
https://www.verywellhealth.com/hallucinations-5222084
https://www.verywellhealth.com/delusions-5113070

It's important to recognise the distinction between different kinds of reality and their consequences.
For health reasons, if nothing else.

I love Otis. This one I wanna slow dance with someone... :hearts:

My kinda sound. Hitting the spot :up:

So much could be said about 'Taxman' - but I didn't know that was Paul playing guitar. Wow.

I was thinking about taking it easy on yourself, myself, ourselves.
In general. Not about romantic break-ups.
But this kinda sound is easy on my ear, right now. So here it is: