Write whatever comes into your head and keep changing it until it doesn't look like shit. — Baden

Well, I'm sure even @tim wood could manage that :roll:

OK then.
Keep the secrets of success - be that winner ! :cheer:

'Harvest Moon' - Neil Young

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2MtEsrcTTs

Just an idea: how about having the contest twice a year, at the December and June solstices? — 180 Proof

Yes. I had been thinking that stories are not just for Christmas.
Another thought related to:

Alas, though, as I have no story-writing skills, I shan't participate and accordingly abstain from voting. — tim wood

I haven't written a short story either but what is there to prevent you from learning the skills ?
Even school kids manage to write essays: 'Wot I did on my holidays'.

A question for @Baden et al to consider, if you haven't already.
How about providing a quick and basic 'How to...' or an example, as a way to encourage those not already identified as 'good writers' ?

Not just for the benefits of a competition but for full moons rising... :sparkle:

though a bit hypnotic — Olivier5

It is mesmerising. My eyelids became heavy and I almost dropped off at 5mins in.
But I struggled to keep awake and it was SO worth it.

In this film you not only hear and feel rhythm but you see it.
It's an extraordinary blend of image and sound that feeds the senses and reminds us all
how essential it is. — Olivier5

Even as I listened and watched, I couldn't help but feel how our way of life and rhythm differs.
Strange experience to watch this old culture struggling to keep alive...from the comfort of my home with all modern conveniences and technology.

We have the rhythm of tap-tapping our keyboards...essential in some ways...
And we listen to 'deep songs'...

it’s a facet of the mystical text ‘the cloud of unknowing’. — Wayfarer

OK. But that still doesn't help me understand what you mean by the 'way of negation'.
Do I need to read the text ? Or can you paraphrase ?

I never did get a career in music, but then, it’s a notorious field of dreams. At least I can write and play. — Wayfarer

'At least' - and it is never too late. Even now, you could be a 'one-hit wonder'...which might lead to more.

It sure gave me a sense of why the ancients dedicated those beautiful sculptures to Sophia. You have to have that feeling for philosophy to be meaningful. Which leads back to the remark that Olivier made, which led me to post this song. — Wayfarer

I hate to admit this but I can't even remember seeing any sculptures of Sophia !
What remark did Olivier make ?
[Edit: I got it - https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/554910 -
'It's another way to defang our good friend Sophia: make her a bureaucrat' ]

I met my to-be wife. Now have two grown sons, three (almost four) grandchildren. ‘Life is what happens when you’re busy making other plans’ has remained one of my favourite sayings. — Wayfarer

I like that saying too. You appear to have had a most balanced and fulfilling life... and it ain't over yet.
Ta for sharing :sparkle:

Dewey certainly isn't a scintillating writer. — Ciceronianus the White

For sure. It is easier to read what others have written about him and his philosophy.

What's the best decision will depend on how we weigh and assess the various factors of concern to us and determine their priority or significance. — Ciceronianus the White

Decision-making by way of cost-benefit analysis is fine up to a point. We can only do our best given our current knowledge and circumstances. How to factor in the 'unknowns'...and filter out our own bias or attitudes. It seems that one way for Dewey is not just through calculation but through education and collaboration. A mix of theory and practice with feedback.

What is the most efficient and effective means by which we resolve the questions/problems presented? That's the process of inquiry, I believe. — Ciceronianus the White

I read about Dewey's 5 stage process: Problem Recognition, Information Search, Alternative Evaluation, Choice, and Outcomes. It seems similar to a process in health care.
Assessment - gather information about presenting problem(s), needs, wishes.
Diagnosis - identifying and prioritising problem.
Planning - involving holistic, interdisciplinary team and individual to set goals and identify best action.
Implementation - actions and treatment carried out by relevant parties.
Evaluation - determining whether outcomes have been reached.
And then repeat as necessary...

This isn't purely an analytical medical enterprise but in an ideal world involves the individual, the self and family. Enabling them to adapt and involves coping with emotions - the health professional too.
I think Dewey encompasses this and more. As per:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dewey/#toc

...human thinking is not a phenomenon which is radically outside of (or external to) the world it seeks to know; knowing is not a purely rational attempt to escape illusion in order to discover what is ultimately “real” or “true”. Rather, human knowing is among the ways organisms with evolved capacities for thought and language cope with problems. Minds, then, are not passively observing the world; rather, they are actively adapting, experimenting, and innovating; ideas and theories are not rational fulcrums to get us beyond culture, but rather function experimentally within culture and are evaluated on situated, pragmatic bases. Knowing is not the mortal’s exercise of a “divine spark”, either; for while knowing (or inquiry, to use Dewey’s term) includes calculative or rational elements, it is ultimately informed by the body and emotions of the animal using it to cope...

He spoke on topics of broad moral significance, such as human freedom, economic alienation, race relations, women’s suffrage, war and peace, human freedom, and educational goals and methods. Typically, discoveries made via public inquiries were integrated back into his academic theories, and aided their revision. This practice-theory-practice rhythm powered every area of Dewey’s intellectual enterprise, — SEP article: John Dewey

How could we at TPF learn from Dewey ? Would it be as exciting and stimulating ? Does it sound boring to be peaceful ? He thought it worthwhile to problem-solve in a peaceful way via group process of discussion and debate. But philosophy, as learned and practised...how effective is it ?

Dewey in the 21st Century
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1158258.pdf

Dewey’s beliefs about democracy, community, and problem solving, guided the development of his social and educational philosophies. John Dewey may have been the most well-known and influential philosopher to impact education to date (Theobald, 2009).
John Dewey was a pragmatist, progressivist, educator, philosopher, and social reformer.
He felt strongly that people have a responsibility to make the world a better place to live through education and social reform (Gutek, 2014). According to Schiro (2012), Dewey believed that education was “a crucial ingredient in social and moral development” (p. 174). — 12 page pdf - Dewey in the 21st Century

Page 9 - discusses philosophy for children (P4C). Interesting. Listen up. We might learn something ?

Students learn and take on appropriate social behavior by becoming engaged and reflective listeners, who respect and challenge the different opinions of their peers (Hopkinson, 2007). This is a skill that is certainly crucial to the goal of appropriate social learning in ideal classrooms as presented by John Dewey.

We can challenge opposing points of view and still keep an attitude of respect, can't we ?
Or are certain negative behaviours an ongoing problem with anonymous internet chat...
But which, nevertheless, we can still learn from...

It's all good. This 'Inquiry' business, innit ?

The back story is, Olivier mentioned Sophia, and I impulsively posted a link to my song of that name. Then I thought better of it, removed it from the thread, and sent it by PM to Olivier. I'm gratified that you like it, it always means a lot to me. — Wayfarer

Thank you. I am sure many more will more than 'like it'.

The back story to the back story - I wrote that song in my mid-20's, at the time, I was discovering...well, what was it....kind of 'consciousness trainings' through various sources. I went on retreat at a Buddhist centre in my locality, when I came back, that song came to me. There was a genuine sense of Sophia-wisdom that inspired it. Not that there was any great vision or imagery even, but a sense of the presence of wisdom. Subtle but real. — Wayfarer

This is so very generous of you to share. 'A sense of the presence of wisdom'. Wow.

At the time I was very much into the 'way of negation'. — Wayfarer

Sorry, but I don't understand this.

Not long afterwards, I did a jazz summer school at the Conservatorium and one of the instructors was a well-known female vocalist, Kerrie Biddell (no longer with us). I gave her a copy of the song on cassette tape, and much to my surprise, when I went to the well-known Sydney jazz venue, The Basement, not long after that, she announced that she was singing it. It became part of her repertoire for the next couple of years, although she never recorded it and I never made anything from her performing it. — Wayfarer

This is astounding. You should be famous. And rich. Perhaps you are...in your own way, rich.

Since then I've continued to write songs, nowadays with music technology I have produced some of them, although the version that is linked was recorded analogue, keyboard, bass, drums and vocal direct to tape — Wayfarer

Well. This is astonishing. How many more superlatives can I find. Not enough.
Are they being performed anywhere ? Do you still feel that sense of wisdom when you create...?
You can tell, I am just a wee bit overwhelmed by all of this...

Thank you.

along with Heavy Weather, and Aja, when I wrote that song. Like I said - aging boomer. — Wayfarer

You. Are. A. Genius.
How come I am just finding this out ?
Along with all the other talented creatives on this forum...
Come on @jamalrob @Baden et al.
Really need a special creative space to showcase such - in 'The Symposium' or whatever.

I am such a bloomin' lightweight who needs the inspiration with so much still to learn.
I have only had a flickering glimpse at what is out there.
Never heard of Aja but yes I heard Steely Dan and this:

'Reelin' In The Years' - Steely Dan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b64fHP9cpVQ

Yes, "our" Wayfarer. :-) He also plays the piano.

BTW, he titled it (or subtitled it?) "For Sophia", aka our good friend Wisdom. — Olivier5

How and when did you discover this amazingness ?

(composed and written by ↪Wayfarer) — Olivier5

Wayfarer ? Our Wayfarer ?
What a find :cool:

It was a vocal - actually the term is 'vocalese' for the kind of jazz that they do, where they sing instrumental lines - anyway, a vocal adaption of a then-hit West Coast jazz band, Spyro Gyra, and The Shaker Song. — Wayfarer

Ah. Now that is just a little bit better, way cooler than 'Chanson'. But Chanson...well...I love it too.

...the lyrics and the general musical artistry, not to mention the apparel, are just so, well, hip.....to this aging boomer anyway.... — Wayfarer

Bloomin' Boomers Bloom :flower:
Difficult to make out the lyrics. Here they are:

Shaker Song
The Manhattan Transfer

The fool screams, 'no more!'
He grabs his shirt and hits the door
What she needs from him he ignores.
It's a bore. Oh it's a bore. Oh it's a bore. Oh it's a bore.
(Oh it's a ...)

Blast the radio.
The hits just come and go.
Block out what he knows that he has blown
(That he has blown...)

The night hangs its head
As the fool crawls into bed.
Still his hungry heart begs to be fed
All the words she once said
(That she said. That she said. That she said.)

So then he grabs his Chevrolet
In one more attempt to get away
But the thoughts of all the crimes of passion lay in his way.

He can shake the blues,
But you know he still can get confused.
It seems like such a waste
'Cause he can't shake her.
He can shake his tail,
But you know his moves are getting stale
He's on the make, but oh, his heart can't fake
That he can't shake her.
He can't shake her.
No, he can't shake her.

Romance falls like rain
But all the motives are insane
Everytime that he plays the game he feels the pain
(He feels the pain. Who is to blame? Who is to blame?)

He finds a joint that's jive
Guys are spinning girls like 45's.
All of the live bait sink for his lines they are so high

He knows he is beat
As his heart puts on the heat
Run from the street that don't even fit his feet
(Don't fit his feet. Now he can see. Now he can really see)

Tell him here's a telephone
He can beg to let the fool come home
He tells her that his life's a drag alone
(Can't be alone)

He can shake the blues,
But you know he still can get confused.
It seems like such a waste
'Cause he can't shake her.
He can shake his tail,
But you know his moves are getting stale
He's on the make, but oh, his heart can't fake
That he can't shake her.
He can't shake her.
No, he can't shake her.

Songwriters: Willis Alta Sherral, Lasley David Eldon, Beckenstein Jay B
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

They were always a mixed bag, but at their best, the best. — Wayfarer

Tell me more...
...about the best ?

'...relax, enjoy the ride...' :up:

Oh, the memories. This commercial, fun blast from the past:

'Chanson D'Amour' - Manhattan Transfer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARfARi-gpWc

I had the mop and bucket for Wikipedia for a year or so. I've no desire to repeat that performance. — Banno

Is there a song out there which would express and heal this deep trauma ?
' There's a hole in my bucket' :nerd:

I did not get a chance to read the posts that were deleted, but it is certain that they were not substantive or on topic. As you said, it was a moderator who thought they should be deleted.
Unfortunately, you have become a target too — Fooloso4

Apparently they have no problem with overdrawn personal feuds. — Olivier5

Unfortunately, the misrepresentations and lies continue. Such blatant dishonesty:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/555262

I will leave it stand. As an example.

My concern is that it will not stop - not particularly from the point of view of being a 'target' - but that any further threads concerning Plato's Dialogues will suffer the same fate.

I prefer now to read and consider any Dialogue in peace.
Hope that others continue in good spirit...

How about starting a thread on it and get Amity to delete all comments that we choose to disagree with? :grin: — Apollodorus

Again with this. Boring crap :yawn:
Deletions can only be done by a moderator who judges any full-of-shit posts flagged.
I am not the only one but guess I am now on the tag team's 'hit list'.
Unfortunately, I can't flag this off topic post but I will do others...and this should disappear.

I either do things in 2 hours or 2 years. Just that kinda guy — Baden

:kiss: You're a sweet-talking guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpFotOi3hDs

Nothing like pacing yourself...I did hear on the grapevine...it's usually about 20 minutes or so.

Re: the creative short story, someone mentioned that just about when I first started here and I thought it it a wonderful idea.
It was discussed - but nothing came of it.
Just another 'potential'...lost along the way, I guess... — Amity

It was 2 years ago !!
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/244214

We should. Maybe I'll do a poll on the idea. Cheers for the reminder anyhow. :up: — Baden

Yay. Then again, maybe...maybe not...
Should we pick off alternate petals :flower:

Basically what I do is take a musical time signature such as 7/8 (7 eighth notes per measure grouping) and then gradually "intensify" it by peeling off eighth notes; so the time signature would change to 6/8 for instance, and maybe all the way to 5/8 before shifting back to 7/8 or maybe even eventually expanding to 9/8. — Noble Dust

I'm sure the way I use intensification is a pale comparison to the richness of it's use in Hebrew poetry. — Noble Dust

Don't be so sure...isn't the creative spirit all good...hmmm, maybe not ?

[Sorry veering off topic I know

OMG. I have to tell ya', I am laughing my head off. Having just finished reading another piece of incomprehensible text...on another thread...
It's all too much. I swear :lol:

Go on. Send me. A quickie. A wee listen-in...please... ]

According to Dewey, "the controlled or directed transformation of an indeterminate situation into one that is so determinate in its constituent distinctions and relations as to convert the elements of the original situation into a unified whole" — Ciceronianus the White

Well. What can I say.
Apart from: "that quote does not exactly set my juices flowing".
So, unless you can tell me what he means...offer any seductive examples...I'll leave him there, I think.

through use of reason, experimental method, logic, etc., instead of, e.g., divination, prayer, consulting authority, luck, etc. — Ciceronianus the White

I did 'get' that but, again, some examples would help, ta.

I use it sometimes to create rhythmic structures in music, to the point that I sometimes write intensified structures subconsciously nowadays. — Noble Dust

Thanks. I have absolutely no idea what that would even feel like consciously never mind sub.
So many creative spirits in TPF...
Truly amazing where a discussion on the Bible can lead.
I think I must return to Alter's Chapter 3 'Structures of Intensification' as related to Job.
To try and see what you mean...

Anyway, I'll really try to find something to share, Amity, but not publicly (please) if that's alright with you. Now if TPF would host an annual "Short Story Contest" like they used to on the old PF (@Banno), I'd be keen to conjure up some gumbo for the occasion. :wink: — 180 Proof

Of course. I look forward to that, thanks.

a lot of my story (sans mythistory) can be read between the lines across a variety posts and even my profile page. All the rest – autobiographical errata – is just dead skin and scabs. — 180 Proof

Yes, that is how I have come to know many posters here. I prefer to disclose parts of me in that 'organic' way too. I haven't written a profile. 'Dead skin and scabs' - we renew. Every day, in every way...

Re: the creative short story, someone mentioned that just about when I first started here and I thought it it a wonderful idea.
It was discussed - but nothing came of it.
Just another 'potential'...lost along the way, I guess...

Perhaps another nudge might work :wink:
It might be another key to set us free.

The Art of Biblical Poetry by Robert Alter is a fascinating exposition on that topic and is still to this day an influence on how I create music as an artist. — Noble Dust

I was intrigued by your mention of this book and looked it up:

https://www.academia.edu/40370735/The_Art_of_Biblical_Poetry

It is lengthy. I scrolled down to the pages concerning the Book of Job.
Approx. pp 92 -138 in Chapters 3-4.

Too much for me to absorb but I can see the fascination. Just wondering how it influenced creativity in your case - any specific examples ?

at that time I was blocked, unable to find my female protagonist's voice in the middle of a shitty novel I was scribbling...eventually exorcized my bs macho-ambition to 'find my female voice' (or write women characters like a woman writer) — 180 Proof

My God. How fckn fascinating is your own story. Why would it be bs macho to try and find the female point of view or voice ? Have you an example of your writing you would care to share ?

As for Blue, my favorite song is (still)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G5084WbyZM8
Why? I've felt this ... — 180 Proof

Beautiful :sparkle:
'I want to wreck my stockings in some jukebox dive'.
Hah. Rip the damned things orf, I say.
And burn the bra :fire:
What bra ?

'All I Want' - Joni Mitchell

I am on a lonely road and
I am traveling, traveling, traveling, traveling
Looking for something, what can it be
Oh I hate you some, I hate you some, I love you some
Oh I love you when I forget about me
I wanna be strong I wanna laugh along
I wanna belong to the living
Alive, alive, I want to get up and jive
I want to wreck my stockings in some jukebox dive
Do you want, do you want, do you wanna dance with me baby
Do you wanna take a chance on
Maybe finding some sweet romance with me baby, well come on

All I really really want our love to do
Is to bring out the best in me and in you too
All I really really want our love to do
Is to bring out the best in me and in you
I wanna talk to you, I wanna shampoo you
I wanna renew you again and again
Applause, applause, life is our cause
When I think of your kisses my mind see-saws
Do you see, do you see, do you see how you hurt me baby
So I hurt you too
Then we both get so blue

I am on a lonely road and I am traveling
Looking for the key to set me free
Oh the jealousy
The greed is the unraveling it's the unraveling
And it undoes all the joy that could be
I wanna have fun, I wanna shine like the sun
I wanna be the one that you want to see
I wanna knit you a sweater
Wanna write you a love letter
I wanna make you feel better, I wanna
Make you feel free
Hm hm hm, hm
Wanna make you feel all free
All I wanna make you feel free

Songwriters: Mitchell Joni
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

I am asking what people think about the Bible, in relation to philosophy, and, certainly, it played a crucial role in the development of philosophy in Western society. So, I am raising this topic for those who are interested, including theologians and atheists, as well as everyone else. — Jack Cummins

I agree with @Noble Dust and wish you well in maintaining this seemingly balanced position to include all aspects.

So I think it's possible to glean valuable stuff from the Bible, in the same way other religious texts have value. It just carries such an ideological weight with it in the Western world that a middle position such as the one you're attempting to hold is rare and often attacked from both sides. — Noble Dust

There is actually a lot of very rich stuff to be found; The Art of Biblical Poetry by Robert Alter is a fascinating exposition on that topic and is still to this day an influence on how I create music as an artist. Stories from the Old Testament such as Job, Jacob wrestling with the angel, and God cutting in half sacrificial offerings made to him (which is interpreted Messianically in Christianity) are deeply rich with suggestive meaning and can hold their own with not only other religious texts but with philosophical texts and great art as well. — Noble Dust

I am glad of your post and the angle taken. The Bible as a source of artistic creativity.
It reminded me of Muriel Sparks' novel 'The Only Problem' which entranced me a while back.
The Book of Job being the rich source tapped:

The only problem for Muriel Spark, it would seem, is that there are many questions for few answers. This is the theme of her new novel... there is a metaphysical component to her fiction, and it is something of a relief that it has at last broken cover in the present work, which is both an extremely sophisticated account of the perils that surround our unsuspecting lives in the world today and a disputation on the subject of the Book of Job, which she calls ''the pivotal book of the Bible.''
Job and his disconcerting predicament challenge every optimistic belief one yearns to accept, lodging like a hard mass of contention in the consciousness of the hopeful believer. The same sort of existential distress is experienced by Mrs. Spark's current protagonist, Harvey Gotham...

...Harvey has moved to this retreat in order to work on his monograph on the Book of Job; he has rather absent-mindedly abandoned his wife, thinking himself entitled to do so since he once caught her stealing two bars of chocolate from an Italian supermarket...

...Harvey is far less interested in these people than he is in Georges de La Tour's beautiful picture of Job visite par sa femme in the museum at Epinal; the sight of Job's wife in her glowing red dress, her turbaned head bending in concern and admonition over her tranced husband, awakens Harvey's thoughts of his absent wife Effie, for whom he feels increasing love, and, deeper even than love, ''nostalgia.''

Effie is indeed the reason for all the visitors (or comforters) who descend on him: Effie wants a divorce, Effie takes a lover, Effie has a baby. All of this provokes discussion of the rights and wrongs of the case. But finally Effie's high spirits erupt in a manner particularly favored by Mrs. Spark. From stealing chocolate bars, Effie has graduated to planting terrorist bombs in supermarkets and department stores. Effie has joined the F.L.E., the Front de la Liberation de l'Europe. A policeman is killed in Montmartre, and Effie's group is responsible. Finally...

All through the course of the investigations Harvey works away on his monograph. So absorbed is he in his task that he discourses on Job to the reporters who attend his press conference, given ostensibly to explain his wife's disappearance:
''I am delighted to get down at last to the subject of this conference: what was the answer to Job's question? Job's question was, why does God cause me to suffer when I've done nothing to deserve it? Now, Job was in no doubt whatsoever that his sufferings came from God and from no other source...

...In ''The Only Problem''...there is emotion, despair and longing, kept in their place by precise and immediate writing. Perhaps the touchstone for Mrs. Spark's extraordinary style is to be found in a sentence from an earlier novel, ''Territorial Rights.'' It is said of a character in that novel, ''That afternoon she stepped out with the courage of her wild convictions and the dissatisfaction that has no name.'' Anyone who can appreciate the alarming and beautiful completeness of that sentence will appreciate ''The Only Problem.'' — NY Times: Book Review

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/15/books/review-muriel-sparks-the-only-problem.html

I hadn't heard of/it before. I only knew of the more commercial songs. So will take time at some point to listen to the whole album.
Like many, I am attracted to 'blue' and so clicked on the 'Blue' track :cool:
Care to do like those interviewed ?
What track would you say is most meaningful to you and why?

"Inquiry" is broad enough, I think, to include the methods employed by AP and OLP in addressing traditional philosophical questions. But Dewey felt inquiry should be applied not merely to philosophical issues but current social issues as well.

So, I have no problem with philosophy addressing social issues. — Ciceronianus the White

'Inquiry' is certainly a broad enough term to include practically anything.
Careful ways of reading, listening and questioning might be seen as obvious and necessary skills if we are to progress from the sometimes narrow and seemingly irrelevant to a broader holistic understanding.

But that's easier said than done...

Dewey I keep meaning to read...but...what is putting me off...I don't know.
Perhaps I need help to put my finger on that particular pulse ?
Any advice welcome, especially any of his analyses regarding social issues, thanks.

TBH: My ears are more attuned to Carole King and her 'Tapestry' (1971).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWbHG5iGZEA

Thanks to @180 Proof for this celebration of Joni Mitchell's 'Blue' :
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/554883

More here :
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/jun/22/joni-mitchell-blue-my-favourite-song-james-taylor-carole-king-graham-nash-david-crosby-kt-tunstall-birdy

Joni Mitchell’s Blue: my favourite song – by James Taylor, Carole King, Graham Nash, David Crosby and more.
As the legendary album turns 50, the musicians it inspired – and those who inspired it – tell us which track means the most to them and why — Interviews by Dave Simpson

Moi aussi :cool:

How about - "We could listen to you and learn something and who knows even vice versa." — Cuthbert

Indeed.

But don't thoughts travel across borders? :-) — Olivier5

Wow. Just what I was thinking. Our posts crossed :cool:

Christoph Schuringa has a piece called The never-ending death of analytic philosophy, mentioned in The Philosopher's Zone. — Banno

What a refreshing and welcome introduction to a new place-to-go for accessible philosophy.
Thanks for providing links to both text and audio versions.

I'll leave it for you to read the details in his article, perhaps just noting mention of the tension between Davidson and Wittgenstein to which I am most drawn. — Banno

Unfortunately, reading and responding to the details of an article is something that I don't always give time to. Or if I do and it stimulates thought in any way, then any TPF discussion moves on at pace and I feel I have lost a window of opportunity...
It seems I need more time to think than most commentators here.
For example:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11175/philosophical-plumbing-mary-midgley/p1

I felt it worthy of a deeper analysis than my usual. I refreshed my memory as to how to read a philosophical text. How to analyse a philosophical essay. Then I read and took notes.
With other mundane and special activities to tend to - in lovely warm, summer weather - this took a couple of days. By this time - although I had reached a better understanding of Midgley's approach, views and arguments - I began to wonder if it was worthwhile entering my thoughts into the records of TPF.

Still, it made me appreciate the analytical skills I had previously learned and forgotten.
If you don't use it, you lose it, huh ?

So, without giving this too much time and effort, here are a few thoughts re some paragraphs:

...On the other hand, so the thought continues, there is still a distinctive style in philosophy that can be aptly called ‘analytic’ (characterized, perhaps, by clarity of argumentation in its self-presentation and by openness to vigorous, non-hierarchical debate)...

...Analytic philosophy may seem more diffident today, and more sensitive to the other. It is true that a recent growth of historical self-awareness within analytic philosophy, and the growth of the history of analytic philosophy as a subdiscipline, have helped make it more self-questioning. This development reflects a remarkable overcoming of analytic philosophy’s previously staunchly ahistorical self-conception, which had tended to keep its past buried and hidden from view. — Christoph Schuringa

It seems to be characterised as a 'distinctive style' all the better to clarify argumentation by being open to 'vigorous, non-hierarchical debate'. Hmm.
I think it more a rigorous method - as per @Ciceronianus the White: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/554632
But perhaps there is not that much difference...

I am not convinced that about the lack of hierarchy, given that it is mentioned as 'the dominant force in academic philosophy'.

As per @Fooloso4 : https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/554523
The self-questioning issue is due to an increasing awareness of other aspects and ways of using philosophy. To take account of social changes, as you say:

His evidence is sociological, and persuasive. — Banno

Perhaps, this means a broadening out from its arguably narrow academic hierarchical 'home'.
To be more inclusive and less divisive, even within its own ranks. *
The skills of analysis and critical thinking can be started in early education, for all.

*

Nagel had been trained in the United States, and the articles are effectively a travel diary of a year in which he tried to meet representatives of various kinds of what he identified as ‘analytic philosophy’ in Europe (including Britain). Nagel’s four big categories...

...What Nagel further draws our attention to is that the approaches he groups together were not always friendly to each other. — Christoph Schuringa

And then, further divisions and antagonisms developed:

Of interest also is the creation by analytic philosophy of "Continental Philosophy", an act that served in the main as an exercise in self-affirmation by expelling the Other. — Banno

I remember - a long time ago - trying to figure out what position, if any, I had re analytic v continental philosophy.
The picture that has stayed with me is that of both sides shooting from their bows.
Me running under an archway of arrows...

It is similar to how I feel about the continual atheism v theism arguments and the way they seem to pervade any thread about any topic...

Those methods may be usefully addressed to such as feminism or critical race theory, but I don't see why it must take them onboard in order to survive or flourish. — Ciceronianus the White

There is no compulsion to take current issues on board in order to survive.
However, I think the necessary self-questioning aspect of relevance is a good way forward, don't you think ? Thoughts travel...

Thank you :sparkle:

Another article of Midgley's that is interestingly provocative. The metaphor is that like plumbing, philosophy is taken for granted until it goes wrong; then we are obliged to call in the experts and clean up the mess. — Banno

It follows that Midgley does not offer a solution, although she indicates a few alternatives. She instead admonishes us to engage in sorting out the conceptual confusions that we otherwise take for granted.

(Edit: by way of full disclosure, see also Midgley vs Dawkins, Nietzsche, Hobbes, Mackie, Rand, Singer...) — Banno

Thanks for this. I haven't read the article yet but glad to see Mary Midgley and her thoughts being picked up and discussed here. Finally, being given her due in the Main Discussion.

Previously in the 'Lounge': https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/4326/death-of-mary-midgley
@Wayfarer's thread gives a bit of perspective to her background.

I look forward to hearing more from Wayfarer, also anything @180 Proof might care to add:

Since I wholeheartedly agree with the spirit, if not also the letter, of Midgley's paper, I've nothing to add until others come along and earnestly clog-up the pipes with their (youtubed) "doctrines". — 180 Proof

She was a disarming grandmotherly figure, it seems, quietly pointing to the blocked drain. — Banno

Glad you added 'It seems'.
2yrs ago, I included this in Wayfarer's thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/301836

Andrew Anthony interviewed her, describing in context, her spirit and intellect.
Re any school-marmly style, Mary responds to his question on consciousness 'with a professorial air of correction'. Quite the character and driven to write.

'....It has remained one of Midgley's principles to write in such a way that the maximum number of people can see what she's talking about. The philosopher and historian Jonathan Rée says: "She has always written in a language that's not aimed at the cleverest graduate student. She's never been interested in the glamour and greasy pole" associated with Oxbridge and London.'

I think this comparison of women and men philosophers interesting.
Elaborate competitive games v simple clear communication of ideas.
The term 'school-marmly' could be seen as pejorative and off-putting to some.
An elderly women philosopher discounted -
Mary would eat you for breakfast :cool:

On Heidegger

...Tried hard to be hailed
Nazi-Plato, but failed
Then denied that he tried, with great vigor. — Ciceronianus the White

:smile:
Not a fan, then ?
Like Sam Rickless, here:

MARTIN HEIDEGGER (1889-1976)
A phenomenological jerk
Hated good analytical work.
He composed Sein und Zeit,
And liked Nazis all right,
Firing Jews was a pleasant job perk. — A History of Western Philosophy in 108 Limericks

I guess limericks are a relatively easy way to criticise and poke fun of anyone.
They can raise smiles, eyebrows, applause and emoticons...sometimes curiosity and questions:

What about this is true ?
Why hold the negative/positive judgement ? How was the conclusion arrived at ? From where ?
Is there a counter-limerick out there...

Ooh la la :fire:

I found this translation of The Spanking, pretty mischievous: — Olivier5

Love that you went looking for a spanking :naughty:
Em...I mean 'The Spanking', of course.
Bet there's more where that comes from...
Erm...I mean Brassens songs, of course.

There must be
'Something in the Water' - Poke LaFarge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXzEVLSoVqw

The woman perceived the man as a bully for stealing the cookies. The man perceived the woman as a flirt when she was stealing the cookies.

Jay — Hanover

Another way of looking at it. Didn't see that at all !
Jay, huh - are you blue ?

Well I did indeed find myself sympathetic with the woman of the story all the way until the end. — theUnexaminedMind

Even at the end, she had my sympathies. We can all be guilty of only seeing what we want to see.
Especially, with nose in her newly bought book - apparently a quick read or she just skimmed.
On the plane 'she sought her book, which was almost complete'.

So, an unthinking read using only a small part of her mind which was elsewhere. Stolen. Like the cookies - and again, she was the 'thief'...her physical wants and emotions distracting. Perhaps just like the book itself was intended to be. A brief encounter.

So she munched the cookies and watched the clock, as the gutsy cookie thief diminished her stock. She was getting more irritated as the minutes ticked by, thinking, “If I wasn’t so nice, I would blacken his eye.” — theUnexaminedMind

She thinks of herself as the goodie -
Rabbie Burns springs to mind:
O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!...'

Then when I realized the twist and I had to ask myself why I thought the way I did. — theUnexaminedMind

A poem with a twist in the tail - taking us by surprise, can make us look again, perhaps to change our own tale.

...if that's just a passive acceptance of stimulus or should I be more forward thinking, or open-minded enough to force out/delay any thoughts of judgement until the very end of any situation or experience — theUnexaminedMind

I think if you read it and received the sting, loud and clear, then it wasn't passive.
Don't we all judge as we go, even if open-minded, and that is why we can appreciate the turn of events.
When we learn something...about our own perspectives. So as not to assume that there is only one way of looking, thinking or expressing.

It was just an eye opening moment. Not sure if I described it well. — theUnexaminedMind

The whole raison d'etre of the poem ?
Thanks for answering my question; describing it well and making me think again... :sparkle:

Tales of the unexpected... :scream:

Georges Brassens was never a believer ; he lambasted priests for a living, and used gods in his verses “only for poetic reasons”. — Olivier5

Thanks for the introduction to Brassens. From wiki:
'His songs often decry hypocrisy and self-righteousness in the conservative French society of the time, especially among the religious, the well-to-do, and those in law enforcement. The criticism is often indirect, focusing on the good deeds or innocence of others in contrast. His elegant use of florid language and dark humor, along with bouncy rhythms, often give a rather jocular feel to even the grimmest lyrics.'

Always learning about just how much I don't know...
I had to smile at this:
'Perché filosofare quando si può cantare?'
from: http://projectbrassens.org/index.php

A brilliant site with menu of songs...
I found his song 'Jeanne' (1962) there, with Youtube and parallel translations. His tribute to a special friend:

From wiki: ''Once put up at Jeanne Planche's, Georges had to stay hidden for five months, waiting for the war to come to an end. He continued writing poems and songs. He composed using as his only instrument a small piece of furniture that he called "my drum" on which he beat out the rhythm.'

http://projectbrassens.org/Jeanne_en.php