I made up my first poem before I could write and I told stories to my pets, relatives, playmate and little brother since I can remember — Vera Mont

A born story-teller, gifted with imagination and the spirit of creativity. I guess you took it as natural and confident in audience reaction. Cats purring.

As an adult, I often fretted over the right tone, cadence, structure, word choice, concision and precision, but not nothing I can identify as 'finding myself'. I guess I never felt lost or obscure or confused - I even have a pretty good idea where my dreams come from. I've often wondered whether I'm just shallow. — Vera Mont

The adult gains more knowledge and awareness of technical detail and skills via education and courses? Different ways to manipulate words for maximum enjoyment?
No need to 'find yourself'. You already knew Vera. Happy in her skin with a clear sense of purpose and direction. It seems you never surprised yourself with new revelations or ideas impacting you or changing ways of thinking? Even knowing what your dreams were about. Jung would be proud!

Why would this make you 'shallow' ? I don't see it. Not one little bit. With all your critical skills sharing experiences and positive attitude. An active wry humour even with all that life throws at you. 'Tedious condescension' being only a small part of it.

I didn't know you had a Blue Willow Collection.

A grandmother recounting the 200 years witnessed by a family heirloom. I doubt it would interest anyone but Canadians. — Vera Mont

Your doubt is not well-founded. Recently, I found myself with an Appalachian accent. Kingsolver and a few other authors to blame.
Canada is one of those countries loved my many nationalities. And family sagas from a female point of view...hits the spot...with an heirloom passed down the generations. Not a bone China tea set or dish by any chance?

The core message can be important - or frivolous - and I do enjoy the process, including research, organizing the material, constructing the plot, and I love stage-setting. I really enjoyed working on sets in amateur theater, as well. I suppose because it crosses media; I like construction, painting and drama. — Vera Mont

'The core message'. 'I think I read that a writer should have the conclusion or destination in mind before they start. What they want to achieve. I guess that's more important for a novel than a short story. Is your novel a series of linked short stories? Your enjoyment is clear and quite contagious. It touches me.

Now, though, writing this is giving me a pain in the neck. New laptop required.

I just meant that I don't get so emotionally invested in a story that I agonize over it. It's more an intellectual exercise for me. — Vera Mont

Was it always like this for you? Or was there a time as a beginner when you felt the strangeness and anxiety of finding yourself in your writing?
When the unconscious or subconscious meets the conscious...if you understand what I mean?

Perhaps you always had a strong sense of identity. In the past, there were no obvious gender issues. And I can see how they aren't a necessary part in a story.

However, many strong women fighting for their rights suffered through centuries of well, I won't go on...you know history better than I do. You've lived through it!

There was a time when women would try to hide any masculine attributes. A fear of societal spurning. She's like a man. No pink frills and childlike giggles. Is she gay? Not so much these days. Perhaps that's liberation...

I identify as female and don't have a problem with that. I didn't agonise over Red, White and Blue, and I didn't have time to get too emotionally invested.
It's just that I became aware of new thoughts arising as I let go. Unsettling. But exciting at the same time. I'm not sure that will ever happen again.

I'm thinking of reworking the Blue Willow story to include more details of Canadian women's history as well as more of the narrator's personality. But it's already quite long, and I'm not up for the intensive research a novel would require, so I keep shelving it. No great passion; just weighing options. — Vera Mont

What 'Blue Willow' story ? The only story I can recall about a woman is 'Dawn'.
And that sounded to me like part of an intriguing novel.

I don't see how there can be no passion or urge involved when it comes to the effort required to research. Or at least, enjoyment. If it gets too heavy, then you are wise to think again. But you're well ahead of the game !

I can't make long-term commitments. — Vera Mont

Ditto.

If a literary challenge is presented, poetry or prose, I'd like to participate -- unless it's a format in which I feel hopelessly incompetent. — Vera Mont

A literary challenge. I would love to start such a thing but I don't feel remotely competent in organising anything like that! Given that I'm still very much a learner and find it all a bit overwhelming, even to participate.

Laptop failure probably means I'll have to go shopping...such a pain!

'As things stand' speaks to the uncertainty I feel as to the forum's future. Best wishes. :sparkle:

Yes, I know about the once a year decision. As such, it should be happening this December 2024. However, with the precarious state of the forum with ongoing problems, it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't. People are busy!

It would be nice to be informed. Also its format and content.
But hey, it will probably be a last minute decision. Not holding my breath!

OK. Time to go off-line. My lap top isn't working. Cursor has gone AWOL. Have tried all the techie advice for hours to no avail. Can you hear me scream?
Reading and writing with difficulty on ancient Samsung tablet. Eyes hurting.
Later...

I hate being interrupted. But then, my stories are not personal or profound; they're just stories. — Vera Mont

There's no such thing as 'just' a story. And they always involve the 'personal' at different levels of consciousness, belief and values. Even the title is a creative, aesthetic choice. It is your voice and language, even if you invent others.

If it is not about your interests, hopes and dream worlds, then what is it?
Sometimes, a simple word, thought or sentence can take you deep, deep down or fly higher and higher...without even realizing it is happening.

That's the power of imagination. And it goes without saying that I love your creativity and story-telling :sparkle:

AND...that of others...@Baden @Jamal @fdrake et al.
The Literary Activity 2024. Is it happening?

But a lighthearted story form, or epic poem with no very strict rules of verse structure - I guess I mean an epic doggerel - might be fun, and plain old storytelling is even more accessible. That, I know people around here can do well! — Vera Mont

Yes, but I think that some here might enjoy a new challenge.
Let's do the Renga! Cha-cha-cha...
Make it as light, bright, sunny or sad as you like.
Anyway, I'm off to learn the basics before turning radical rebel!
I like to spin around :cool:
Solo renga.

In Renga, the individual and, at least, one partner can unite in a dance of images and words. The form keeps you in step.The reader observes the transitions and links - how they move from here to there.

I think some of the ancient rules can be simplified to enjoy the form without being 'masters'.

The amount of traditional links were reduced to 36 by Matsuo Basho.
So, now to a Renga Party with Basho and Jane and Werner Reichhold. We watch the steps and learn how the (numbered) links work. An intriguing challenge...

Lesson Three
Basho as Renga Master

Until Bashô’s time, most renga had either 100, 1,000 or 10,000 links. Considering the time and effort it took Bashô to get to the government outpost for a renga party, and thinking of how uncomfortable he might have been living amongst strangers for an extended period of time, it is no wonder he devised a renga form using only thirty-six links called the kasen (KAY-SEN(d) – poetic sages) – supposedly to honor the 36 immortal poets of Japan.  — Ahapoetry - Bare Bones School of Renga

I think TPF could have a few dance-offs. Wouldn't you love to see @Baden and @Hanover step on each other's toes?! A collaborative competition.

Baden would lead with the haiku call, with a 2-line Hanover response.
And so on...
Keeping the form but having serious fun with it.

I personally believe that haiku is something individualistic, an expression of an amazement for perceiving the nature around us. — javi2541997

Yes. I understand the intensity. And perhaps that is why renga didn't work in your haiku community. Individuals protective of their feelings. An added response might not be desired or not be 'good enough'.

If I write a haiku about it, I have to expect that the other part would like autumn as much as I do. — javi2541997

Of course, the response must be simpatico with a good aesthetic. From above:

This back-and-forth pattern fosters a symphony of ideas and emotions.

Shift and Link: Each stanza introduces a “shift” and a “link.” The shift changes the topic or tone from the previous stanza, while the link maintains continuity, creating an interconnected flow. — Amity

I ended up in the conclusion that renga is for real masters of haiku. I am not part of them. — javi2541997

OK. Again, you set high standards when, for beginners, this is not realistic.
I understand the wish for an attachment to melancholic 'fallen leaves' not to be disturbed or spoiled by a vibrant crunching of carefree crispness.

A counterpoint. In some cases, the contrast might be a tasty and amusing dialogue. Like sweet and sour chicken... or something...

I agree there could be a danger if some collaborators want to impress others by stretching an image too far, undermining the previous lines.
The poetry would suffer if there is no true companionship.

I understand that the connecting ideas should be a call and response rhythm. With formal technicalities learned and practised, there would be a natural ease.

There is another interesting feature: 'haikono'...
A person posts a picture of landscape or places and the rest write a haiku of that photo. This is very nice to do. — javi2541997

Thank you :cool:

From: https://poetryispretentious.com/renga/

The Rules of Renga:

Stanza Structure: Renga comprises alternating haiku (starting verse) and “waki” (response) stanzas. The haiku, traditionally a three-line verse following a 5-7-5 syllable pattern, establishes the theme. The waki, adhering to a 7-7 syllable structure, responds while subtly shifting focus. It is essentially a collaborative tanka.

Collaboration: Collaboration is the heart of Renga. After the haiku, poets take turns adding stanzas. All of the examples below are one stanza, but a Renga can continue for as many stanzas as the poets would like, though traditionally it is capped at 36. This back-and-forth pattern fosters a symphony of ideas and emotions.

Shift and Link: Each stanza introduces a “shift” and a “link.” The shift changes the topic or tone from the previous stanza, while the link maintains continuity, creating an interconnected flow.

Length and Structure: Traditional Renga can encompass 36 stanzas. The “ageku,” the final stanza, is contributed by the host and brings closure, often referencing the seasons.

Seasonal References: Renga’s essence lies in its kigo. Seasonal allusions ground the poem, evoking the cyclic beauty of the world...

Autumn’s tapestry,
Golden leaves in graceful fall,
Whispers of farewell.

Response:

Crisp air carries memories,
Harvest moon’s silvery keys.

(Original haiku by Shiki, Response by Kyoshi)


Silent winter’s hush,
Stars, diamonds on velvet spread,
Dreams born in ice’s clutch.

Response:

Embers glow in hearth’s embrace,
Stories warm the coldest space.

(Original haiku by Issa, Response by Hokushi)

...aerily beyond...

A Dark and Stormy Knight, written on a philosophy forum, now long defunct, by six different posters on three continents, who didn't even know one another's real names.
It started as a challenge: Here is an opening paragraph; write the next paragraph. The story emerged over several weeks and took some amusing turns... — Vera Mont

Collaborative creativity. Quite the fun challenge, as writer then editor. To combine individual voices as one.

I've read that such collaborations are also used to give individuals confidence. Even tentative first steps, single words being incorporated into a whole. Supported learning in an exploration of own and shared experience and feelings.

An imaginative facilitator came up with the idea of linking fragments as in the ancient Japanese renga.

During the pandemic, I was invited to be a researcher on a project looking at stories of gender-based violence during the Covid-19 pandemic. We didn’t want to ask participants to do anything we weren’t prepared to do ourselves and so as part of the research, we wrote our own remembered stories of gender-based violence. These came out as fragments, which often happens with traumatic memory and is one of the reasons that poetry is so fitting in this work.  — Mel Parks - Collaborative creative writing in the community

Some could have some fun with this? Not sure I'm capable. But @javi2541997 immediately springs to mind, the haiku fiend :cool:
https://poets.org/glossary/renga

Here is a little quote from a Fay Weldon novel, Rhode Island Blues that I'd like to share for no particular reason.
...The character is a film editor. It could as easily have been said of literature by a book editor. I do appreciate Fay Weldon! — Vera Mont

Again, thanks for sharing a beautiful quote and I don't believe it is 'for no particular reason'. It is, of course, a gift just for me! :wink:
It made me think of you and your husband as writers, editors and publishers.
Born with a 'capacity for grief' - empathy, feeling, healing and more. Making magic together...working hard and living in love and fun. :heart:

Fay Weldon. I remember one of her stories from a TV series:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_and_Loves_of_a_She-Devil_(TV_series)

I didn't appreciate it at the time. I remember feeling disturbed but don't ask me why. So long ago, in another lifetime.

Given your appreciation of her, I had to find out more. Oh my! What a lovely person with so much to give. Well, at least, that's what I've gleaned so far.
Probably a bit more complex...

'Writing Tips' from her website...include rules from Kurt Vonnegut. Yay :fire:

https://fayweldon.co.uk/

frantically paging back and forth, "Why can't I remember what those little shrubs are called?" I got so exasperated with that one, I had a character say it. — Vera Mont

You see that is what I love to hear. How part of you becomes part of a character. And possibly vice versa. How much does the self gain by writing and reading.
Whose story are you telling - own thoughts and feelings shown and grown.
Seeds sown for future re-generations...

Writing stories is one of the ways I keep sane. World-building takes a lot of time and thought, but there is something quite magical in immersing oneself in an imaginary place, climate, scenery, culture, inventing people, dwellings, food crops... You get to be a deity of sorts. — Vera Mont

Yes, I understand the magical element and can imagine the satisfaction of world- building. I didn't manage to express myself very well. I'll try again.

Re sanity: I felt mentally disturbed when writing Red, White and Blue. In that I felt my inner self was being exposed. I was immersed not only in the story but simultaneously discovering...perhaps hidden aspects...who the hell is this writing? It's not me!

Same thing with the poem Sempre. It doesn't read like much but it made me question my own female/male aspects or qualities. Or should that be feminine/masculine?

I was surprised and shocked at my writing. How much it revealed and yet self was still edited.

The most fun project I ever had was a collaborative medieval 'fairy tale', with kings and knights, a dragon and a witch. Had to learn about armour and castles. — Vera Mont

Now that is something I'd like to hear more about! Witches are fascinating.

I followed up TPF event with an introductory creative writing course (FutureLearn) and ended up with a magical witchety story. Again, it kinda involved gender questions but was real fun! Fellow students were brilliant. Sharing thoughts and mutual feedback. Really special.

PS After revisiting the years of TPF short stories, I would like to add that there have been many highlights, some low, but overall an exceptional creative activity.

I've noted and just responded to a wonderful comment left by @john27 at the end of my story discussion. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14546/red-white-and-blue-by-amity

For me, the whole experience, story and feedback, was an amazing, exhilarating ride.
A weird sense of fulfilment and sheer joy. Probably never to be repeated.
Thanks to all who made it so! :flower: :sparkle: :flower:

I just came in here for a brief respite from fighting over animal intelligence. — Vera Mont

Ah, yes. I pop into the Rational thinking thread for my early morning entertainment :wink:
Some recent heated exchanges remind me of 'fighting like cats and dogs'.
I really wanted to poop 'Plato ate Dogs' for Breakfast!' or 'Cats are my Go-To for Supper!'...but resisted.

A few articles from Philosophy Now:
Exploring the largely wordless love bond: Prof. Jeremy Barris 2008
https://philosophynow.org/issues/67/Plato_is_my_dog_yo_Dogs_Love_and_Truth
Philosophers on Dogs: Prof. Matt Qvortrup 2023
https://philosophynow.org/issues/160/Philosophers_on_Dogs

Back to the cat-dog relationship... as usual, wiki has all you ever need to know.
Curiosity, the linky scent, led me to a children's poem, The Duel by Eugene Field:
https://poets.org/poem/duel
Almost unbelievably, this light-hearted children's poem has been analysed:
https://poemanalysis.com/eugene-field/the-duel/

But yeah, truth and knowledge...

I pay attention to the details of setting; consider it important not to have lily of the valley blooming in September or long shadows at 1pm or a piano in a poor man's cottage, and of course, I had to put quite a lot of details in the manor where a quasi historical romance took place. But I had not considered the location very important until I attempted SF. — Vera Mont

The shades and colour of detail certainly matter. To allow the reader to engage all senses in an imaginative exploration. I guess there has to be a determination as to how much...and how 'real'.

Hilary Mantel's fictionalised history novels I haven't read. However, it seems that - just as in films like say, Braveheart - history buffs get on their high horse. About dates, appearances and relationships.
These royal characters couldn't have met then because...

However, as long as people are made aware that it is fictionalised, then if the story catches their imagination and they want to know more, then what is the problem?

Do you know how much research and meticulous planning goes into inventing a planet? Damn real, it becomes a character: it haunts your dreams for months on end. — Vera Mont

I don't know how you keep sane! Of course, you could get AI or that chatty person to help out - perhaps even write the story for you?!

When it came to my one and only venture into TPF 'Literary Event' (how grand-sounding!), my mind was completely taken over by 'Red, White and Blue' for about a week. No great research required, funnily enough. However, I had been steeped in certain novels and inspired to turn a fairy-tale 'hero' into that of a female 'heroine'. The 3-line poem 'Sempre' followed a strong 'feeling' after reading a poster's exchange re his daughter wishing gender transition.

I can only imagine the amount of research undertaken for any novel. How after years of reading, the author has to decide what to leave out. The hard stuff not always conducive to a good read...

I'm now recalling your cat story and javi's dog haiku...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13707/waiting-for-the-midnight-mouse-by-vera-mont

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14555/my-dog-by-javi2541997

And while I'm here...
I'd just like to say how pissed off I am at @Jamal for removing his plum pudding story. It is if it never happened. And yet, twas brillig with some fascinating feedback to it...a clear, stand-out winner.
Really, Jamal, why? It had a dog in it, didn't it? Can't you re-instate...?

As you and others are welcome to inspire me! :cool: — Amity

Talking about inspiration. The what, who, why, where and how.
As a concept it can be found in all the usual places. Here's one:
https://www.berkeleywellbeing.com/inspiration.html

I had never read anything by Terry Pratchett until recently. I've just finished 'Small Gods' - the audio version - and well, so glad I found it when I did. This is the kind of experience that can inspire.

Hilary Mantel is another author I haven't exposed my mind to. And yet, today, I read of her inspiration to others. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/sep/19/hilary-mantel-mentor-seven-things-she-taught-me-writing-and-life

A BTL comment and advice by 'Sallycycles' hooked me right from the start. Read something different from your 'usual'. Yes! That's exactly what I've been doing but also listening.

[That is one of the brilliant aspects to TPF's 'Literary Event' that is now apparently only happening once a year. People are inspired and stimulated to write, read and respond to a selection of stories and poems by posters that they think they know. The guessing game surprised many!
@Baden @Jamal and everyone involved in the venture - please keep this alive :pray: ]

Here's the full Sallycycles:

I was told by an old, and now sadly late friend and phenomenally successful writer, that every writer and aspiring writer should read every day; not just books that they enjoy, but ones that they would otherwise pass by on the other side off the road. This advice seems to be shared among other writers I know through my work.
I was also told to write what you want to read. This may seem like an obvious statement, but for a follower of romantic fiction to try writing a bloody crime thriller may not be wise. Richard Adams [Watership Down] said he could never write a human story, so he didn’t, and he stuck with what he was comfortable with. The book was rejected by many publishers, but was eventually taken up by one and, as they say, the rest is history.
Whatever you do, write every day; make time to be alone or wherever you are comfortable, but write. J K Rowling said to Jealously Protect your Writing Days, Neil Gaiman has a policy of going down to his writing shed with no tech, no 'phone signal and no distractions, and says to himself, “You don’t have to write. You have permission to not write, but you don’t have permission to do anything else.” Dame Jacquline Wilson can write anywhere from her kitchen table to the back of a taxi – I suspect she is an exception.
Above all, write, and write every day. Be it 1,000 or 2,000 words of your book; be it a diary entry; be it a description of a spider crawling across your wall, or a spring sparrow singing outside your window, but write. Writing isn't a muscle, but it behaves like one - if it doesn't get used, it starts to get weak and needs re-strengthening; it is best to keep it active.
All day, every day I think as I am going about life - sometimes it will be about describing how someone is crossing a road - the waiting and watching for a space, the light semi-jog over or the I-have-a-Right-and-You-Will-Wait crosser; how the sound of a closing car door behind you after you pass it could be sinister [how would you describe that on paper?]; an autumnal leaf falling from a tree in the cold weather to form a pile on the ground, and what may be living in the leaf-litter... the list is endless. My mind never stops working.
Never stop thinking about writing. Never stop planning openings - even if you never go further with that story. Write 200, 400 or 600 word pieces to keep the muscle strong, and make sure you stick to the exact number to practise on-the-fly editing. Think about planning, but don't obsess – neither Lee Child or Stephen King plan. They start with a vague idea and with the first word hoping the next follows. Agatha Christie planned, and planned and planned for months, and then she wrote, and she 'wrote' her books in as little as a month - but only after months of planning for hours each day. Try both methods and see how they suit you.
To close, it is a simple process, and a quick look in any bookshop or supermarket, and a glance through any of the popular books will show you that not all work published is of a high literary standard, but it has been published. There is skill, there is perseverance, and there is a very large dollop of luck.
One final thought – no self-respecting writer or would be writer [indeed, if you have ever written with the intention of publication, in my mind, you are already a writer] will ever be without a notebook and pen or pencil. A simple reporters’ note book and a cheap ballpoint [do try and avoid the plastic disposable ones… we have far too much plastic litter on the planet] will work just as well as an expensive book and a Mont Blanc fountain pen, and they attract far less attention in the coffee shop or café, or on the packed 7:45 commuter train.
There, 700 words in a matter of minutes and now to make my wife a warm cup of Lucozade to sooth her angry throat. — Sallycycles

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I suppose I was waiting for that question about metaphysical intuition to stop rattling around in my subconscious. — wonderer1

Again, please, there is no need to apologise for any 'late' reply. The 'thread' of whatever can be picked up just whenever. It's good to know that the phrase 'metaphysical imagination' is still being held in mind and questioned. It has been bothering my backburner of a brain. However, rusty knobs on my black wrought iron railings...

I'm certainly a hero appreciator, but I suppose not much of a worshipper in general. — wonderer1

:smile: What kind of 'hero' do you tend to appreciate?

It is so interesting and mysterious, the effect that poetic elements seem to have on us. — wonderer1

I guess some might ask the question: "what are 'poetic elements?'' How do they show in expression?

I was taken aback when a cousin-in-law artist and sculptor remarked that I reminded him of an Australian poet. I can't remember her name now. It seems that I use alliteration and metaphors in a rhythmic and sometimes rhyming fashion. When I was made aware of this, it made me self-conscious. When we examine our ways of conversation, speech patterns, it can stem the flow...for a wee while.

I once got the following response to a sentence I had written on another forum, "Something about that sentence just makes it feel awesome when you read it out loud, especially the ending. Nice use of words wonderer." — wonderer1

The pity is that this kind of positive aesthetics and feedback is not always recognised, far less given expression. It makes forum writing worthwhile and can lead to more thought...

I had to look at what I had written to figure out that it was probably a matter of the alliteration, which it seems my subconscious had managed to work into the sentence, while consciously I was struggling to express something semantically complex in a succinct way, with no conscious consideration of how it would sound.

Long story short... I like alliteration as well, perhaps more than I know. : — wonderer1

Yes, that could indeed have been why the receiver/responder reacted that way. Your analysis of the subconscious filtering through the conscious as you write seems reasonable. I think that wanting to express the complex clearly and to captivate the audience in imagination can be difficult.

For some this seems natural but others (a perfectionist or artist) would be motivated to edit and polish until the words sound right. Even grammatically correct. I love the different ways we can use or manipulate words, images and sounds to improve understanding.

Anyway, back to metaphysical imagination...

I've come to the conclusion that I am intuitively epistemologically opposed to compartmentalizing imagination in such a way that it would make any sense to me to say, "This is metaphysical imagination and this is not." I suppose I see an important part of imagination as being a way of escaping the ruts of unimaginative thinking, and calling some imagination "metaphysical" seems likely to create the sort of boundaries to my thinking that I seek to escape via imagination. — wonderer1

Did we ever move away from 'metaphysical imagination'? I agree it is difficult to see what the adjective 'metaphysical' adds to 'imagination'. However, it is one of those topics open to all fields who analyse the concept of imagination to bits. Some of it is useful. And can even inspire.

I was delighted to find the online magazine Interalia - 'dedicated to the interactions between the arts, sciences and consciousness.'
Falling between the cracks of scientific and artistic expression. Jumping between the modes...
The title of this excellent article - wow, how could I resist?

https://www.interaliamag.org/interviews/cloudy-with-a-chance-of-joy/

And I've bookmarked this:
https://iep.utm.edu/hume-ima/
David Hume (1711–1776) approaches questions in epistemology, metaphysics, ethics and aesthetics via questions about our minds.

Of course, you are welcome to inspire me to look at things differently — wonderer1

As you and others are welcome to inspire me! :cool:

Interesting to hear your perspective. Take care :sparkle:

Obviously, she did not have freedom of will but was thrown back in the past and lost all self-control in relation to me but oddly could snap back to appropriate behavior when speaking with others. — Athena

It is so difficult to break free from our constructions and defence mechanisms of the past. — Jack Cummins

@Jack Cummins - Yes. The past and present are intertwined and affect our behaviour. Defence mechanisms can be helpful or otherwise. Our predictions or expectations in close relationships are susceptible to memories and events replayed in our minds. Attitudes towards others can be ingrained and become part of who we are, our personality and sense of morality.

We all make judgements, rightly or wrongly. The issue of free will is important when it comes to crimes of passion. Just how much responsibility or accountability a person has.

It can come down to self-mastery and control of emotions. Some people's 'bad' behaviour can be triggered by others who are apparently 'rational' with a 'higher' degree of self-knowledge. Rationality is privileged by those who stand in judgement. Who is more likely to be heard/listened to and understood in a system dominated by males?

There is still a prevalent attitude where females are deemed more irrational and emotional then males.
The police are still 'learning lessons' when it comes to processing domestic/sexual abuse/rape.

There is nothing 'odd' about people behaving better towards 'distanced' others than ones closer in their lives, minds and memories. This can be seen in how carers of elderly parents can be disbelieved by health professionals. The mask is switched from personal angry attacks by the 'demented' to charming and congenial smiles to those in higher authority. Nothing to see here. Move on...

So, there is still some degree of free will left. Even if instinctual. Some control.
However, degree of responsibility is another thing... not easy to assess...
When it comes to our stories, it's not always possible to see the perspective from the 'other side'.

This is where careful and considered questioning comes into play. To examine assumptions and presumptions and so forth...

Now, mobile phones are the new distraction or even a source for imaginative searching. Texts and emails feature in novels so much. — Jack Cummins

Amy Arnold deliberately chose to have Lori walk out without her mobile phone. No contact meant she had time to recover, to have peace to wonder and reflect.
The environment and atmosphere creating a sense of spiritual space. Mystical.
A stream of consciousness.

Technology can help or hinder in our searches. But can it recreate that 'unnameable feeling'?

Perhaps this can only found or sensed in 'metaphysical imagination' ? Or simply good old common sense?

The aesthetics of landscape setting free our imagination and creativity.
As described in Ronald Hepburn's article:
https://www.environmentandsociety.org/mml/landscape-and-metaphysical-imagination

Talking about weather, consciousness, feeling, writing, reading and such like...

I've previously mentioned the Future Learn course 'How to Read a Novel' (HTRAN). It's free and lasts 4 weeks, a novel pw. The video interviews/transcript with the authors are a highlight.

This year, Week 4 was an exploration of 'Settings' - using the book 'Lori and Joe' by Amy Arnold.
Amy Arnold is a trained neuropsychologist; this comes through in the conversation. Arnold attempts to capture consciousness in prose. How to get into someone's mind...
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/how-to-read-a-novel/15/steps/1926598

Right away, she talks of her inspiration as a 'feeling' she wanted to share with the reader. It is 'specific and familiar' but it's also 'unnameable'. The novel takes place on a single day, on a single walk. Over valley and fells in Cumbria. The landscape/weather 'almost become a character, you relate to.'

Arnold talks of her novel as being a bit like a tanka or haiku. In the sense that it is a 'compression' of time, space but also emotion. That reminded me of @javi2541997' and 'unbearable nostalgia'. According to Arnold, the unnameable feeling is 'not about communicating longing, isolation, loneliness or even the collision of all those things.'

I started reading her novel a few months ago but couldn't get to grips with it. Too sad, a bit depressing. But then, I read more:
https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/goldsmiths-prize/2023/11/amy-arnold-interview-fiction-lori-joe
After getting to know the author, I feel like giving the novel second chance.

Perhaps there is a time when we are more 'ready' for a book and meeting the lives within. Philosophically, personally, poetically...

The other one I'm now attracted to is Week 2's 'Though the Bodies Fall' by Noel O' Regan. The focus is on 'Characterisation'. However, the 4 elements of a novel interact (wk1 Plot, wk3 Dialogue). And the Setting, here, seems to me to be central. I don't know, I've yet to read it.

Though the Bodies Fall by Noel O’Regan centres on trauma and its aftermath. The protagonist, Micheál Burnes, resides in his family’s bungalow at the end of Kerry Head in Ireland, a picturesque location with cliffs notoriously known as a suicide spot. With an evocative sense of place, the novel describes a familial inheritance where, for three generations, Micheál’s family has felt a duty to guard the area and save the souls of those seeking eternal relief there. From a young age, Micheál is taught by his mother to assist the so-called “visitors,” making it a life mission and a spiritual calling.

https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/how-to-read-a-novel/15/steps/1926571

Thanks, Jack, I agree with much of what you say.

The other side to this though can be how mood itself affects aesthetics. I find that the whole world seems to look different according to state out of mind. People don't seem to speak of this often and I wonder whether they notice such differences. If I am going to create art or write fiction the first priority is getting into the right state of consciousness. — Jack Cummins

I think people are aware of feeling better when the weather changes from dark, dreichness to sunny, lightness. Up here, anyway, people are more likely to relax and smile, pass the time of day, talking about the weather...
A real sense of 'All's well with the world!' even when it isn't.

What is the 'right state of consciousness'? We can't change the weather but we can change our attitude to it. Sometimes feeling low or angry can result in a downpour or outpouring of thoughts and ideas.

I feel so gloomy and I often go out on busses to look out of the window and daydream. — Jack Cummins

Yes, I seem to recall that is where some of your short stories stem from.
Or from nightmares...?

Trump supporter Elon Musk, known to be the father of 12 children, posted on his social-media platform X (formerly Twitter): "Fine Taylor … you win … I will give you a child and guard your cats with my life." — BBC News - Taylor Swift endorses Harris

Talking about aesthetics, politics and morals:

Some people have called this 'unsettling'. It is disgusting. It is a male way of showing contempt, control and power over a woman. 'I will give you a child' - he knows that would be against her will. So, how is he going to give her a child? Not by offering one of his own but by impregnation. Against her will.
That can be interpreted as a threat to rape. Pure and simple. But hey, it was only a joke, man.

Trump was accused of rape but was only found liable for 'sexual abuse' .He has made comments about his fame enabling him to do anything he likes, including 'grabbing pussy'. He is a disgusting criminal and yet look how close the race is for him to be President of the US. Un-fucking-believable. We could get creative with nouns and adjectives. Some see him as 'strong', others say 'wrong'. Aesthetics, huh?

Let's look at Rape Culture:

Chris O'Sullivan asserts that acts of sexism are commonly employed to validate and rationalize normative misogynistic practices. For instance, sexist jokes may be told to foster disrespect for women and an accompanying disregard for their well-being, or a rape victim might be blamed for being raped because of how she dressed or acted. O'Sullivan examines rape culture and fraternities, identifying the socialization and social roles that contribute to sexual aggression, and looks at "frat life" and brotherhood ideals of competition and camaraderie. In these groups, sex is viewed by young men as a tool of gaining acceptance and bonding with fellow "brothers", as they engage in contests over sex with women.[36]: 26  In O'Sullivan's article, sexualized violence towards women is regarded as part of a continuum in a society that regards women's bodies as sexually available by default.[3 — Wiki - Rape culture

Frat life, brotherhood, sex and rape. Who or what does that remind you of? I can't forget this:

Christine Blasey Ford, the psychology professor who accused Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh of sexual assault, used a rare interview to detail the trauma she faced after her explosive allegations thrust her into a charged confirmation battle for one of the nation’s most powerful positions...

Kavanaugh was narrowly confirmed and has since become a key voice on the Supreme Court – a sometimes-harbinger of which way its conservative 6-3 supermajority is leaning on controversial issues like abortion, guns and affirmative action. — CNN - Kavanaugh accuser Christine Blasey Ford - consequences of testimony

The US Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade on June 2022. Previously, access to abortion was a federal right in the US. Its overturning was a regressive step undoing 50yrs of legal protection. Rights hard fought for.

More of this and worse will happen to minorities if Harris doesn't win the Election. A woman's appearance and behaviour still more harshly judged than a (white) man's. Harris has done well to reach this point. A few more weeks to go...

I do see life as like a novel unfolding. On a negative side, that may be why I attract negative dramas. Another way of seeing this though is to be able to frame the negative dramas in a creative way as being part of a mythic quest. — Jack Cummins

I've been thinking about people and how their space, place or environment can effect their affect.
The link between aesthetics and politics.

OK, I could start with politics and popstars. The current, high profile example being that of Trump and Taylor Swift. I won't go into all of that but it was interesting to read her reasons for publicly endorsing Harris. Right after the Harris-Trump debate. Some of it a result of Trump's misrepresentation and Vance's comments about 'Childless, Cat Ladies'.
The cat as pet, for human consumption, continues to play a role in the Trump campaign. Go figure. Tapping into our aesthetics.

Vance, the Ohio senator, has faced a backlash for a clip in which he called several prominent Democrats - including Harris - "a bunch of childless cat ladies who are miserable at their own lives". He recently said his comments were "sarcastic".

Swift went on to compliment Harris's choice of vice-presidential candidate, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, who she said had been "been standing up for LGBTQ+ rights, IVF, and a woman's right to her own body for decades".

The singer said she was in part motivated to share her voting decision with the public after an AI image of her falsely endorsing Trump was posted on his website.

"It really conjured up my fears around AI, and the dangers of spreading misinformation," she said. "It brought me to the conclusion that I need to be very transparent about my actual plans for this election as a voter." — BBC News - Taylor Swift endorses Harris

I hope she and her concert goers, fans, will be safe. There are some, pretty dark religious/political figures around with murder in their angry hearts. Easily triggered by Trump who called her a "very liberal person" and said that she will "pay the price for it in the marketplace. She must 'pay the price'...

***

Now, let's take the high road to Scotland! How authors are inspired by the environment; past, present and future. So many. Here's an article by Peter May:

On the surface, little appears to have changed in the 30 years that bestselling author Peter May has been visiting the Isle of Lewis. But tourism has had a big impact – from Sunday opening hours to a deep water port for cruise ships — Guardian - Scotland holidays

I've read that setting is important when writing a novel. Indeed, it can be seen as a character.
Any thoughts? On Cities v Country? The personal experience - where our imagination and creativity can lead.

And remember Aesthetics and Creativity are all-inclusive! Not just subsets of 'Philosophy of Art'.
Science, maths and technology are included. I don't know much about that though...

While aestheticization of life is not a new phenomenon, what is noteworthy in the so-called organizational aesthetics and artification strategy is that they deploy art and art-like ways of thinking and acting in those areas of life which have not been traditionally associated with art or aesthetics: medicine, business, education, sports, and science, among others, as well as organizational life in general (Darsø 2004; Naukkarinen and Saito 2012; Ratiu 2017b). These professional practices typically privilege rational discourse comprised of logic and rules, but they cannot ignore their aesthetic dimensions. — SEP - Aesthetics of the Everyday

Thanks, I don't know how I missed it!

The site has been down for a while today and I don’t know if we’re safe and sound yet. It got me thinking we should have somewhere online to gather if that happens again. — Jamal

@Jamal It seems that the Philosophy Now forum is having similar problems. There is a suggestion that Rick Lewis might end the forum >>> Panic amongst the members! A thread's been started to find a new home. TPF has been briefly considered:

So, what are some good alternative sites?

"The Philosophy Forum" evidently only accepts "invited" new members.

And "Online Philosophy Club," which is presided over by "Eckhart Aurelius Hughes" (formerly known as "Scott" :D ), is absolutely flooded with advertisement banners (even between posts).

I'm still waiting for some alternative suggestions that will be better than ILP. — Philosophy Now Forum

That made me wonder about the criteria for being accepted? I didn't have to go through that process and can't find information on 'how to join'...
You should make 'em pay! :wink:

Just like to add thanks for being a considerate and communicative owner. Thinking ahead...

Aesthetic appreciation often gets left out of life, especially in news. There is so much emphasis on sensation with bad news. I don't have a television but see news on the phone and it frequently lowers my mood. Watching such news can even be addictive. — Jack Cummins

The sensational attracts and sells. The aesthetic senses are stirred in everyday life. News coverage can give a positive or negative aesthetic experience. Depending.

Many only read enough to keep them posted. As you say, too much of the 'bad' can bring you down,
It can be addictive, just as watching 'soaps' or visiting TPF can be! It's up to the individual to realise when enough is enough. The current lead-up to the American elections and the Para/Olympics only a few examples of excitement. Once caught, it's hard not to binge-watch series on BBC iPlayer or similar. Whereas in days of yore, we had to be patient and wait a week between episodes.

You make good points and thanks ( I think!) for the recommendation. So many books...

I always try to read a novel with my morning coffees as it seems to get me in the right frame of mind to cope with the dramas of the day. I do see life as like a novel unfolding. On a negative side, that may be why I attract negative dramas. Another way of seeing this though is to be able to frame the negative dramas in a creative way as being part of a mythic quest. — Jack Cummins

You know, that's something I've never been able to do. Sit down at breakfast to read, anything!
When I went to pay for some books in a second-hand bookshop, I bemoaned the fact that I had too many. Something would have to give! (addicted to book-buying, rather than reading?)
The lady just smiled and said. "You can never have enough books. There's no rush to read them all. Take your time, read slowly at the kitchen table, over breakfast."
Great sales pitch but, as a lover of books, she meant it!

Ah, the dramatic stories in our lives. Are they really so negative and draw you in to more? They might seem so at the time but therein lies the challenges needed for growth. As you say, a re-framing of life and its chapters.

Strange how being aware of all kinds of everything can change our attitude to life. Our aesthetics.

I've never forgotten something a grandparent once wrote in my 'autograph book':
'If you look where you are going, you will go where you are looking'.
Kindly written after I bumped my head on a lamp-post at their front garden. Looking and waving at them, both at the window, as I hurried back to primary school after lunch.
First philosophy?

wonderer

Kenning-comprehender — wonderer1

Kenning-kenner?

I took a Tolkien class in college, and one of the things discussed was Tolkien's work on Beowulf. I can't say I remembered the word "kenning", but I was familiar with such use of language in Old English poetry, and such. — wonderer1

Awesome! I have under-appreciated Tolkien, OE poetry, not to mention the Greek Odes. 'and such'? Perhaps not much of a hero worshipper?
The wiki article, linked to earlier, fascinated me. The different views and arguments, not unlike philosophy. Tolkien, amazingly, used both prose and poetry and had clear views on translation:

Tolkien noted that whatever a translator's preferences might be, the ancients such as the Beowulf poet had chosen to write of times already long gone by, using language that was intentionally archaic and sounding poetic to their audiences. Thus, Tolkien explains, the poet uses beorn and freca to mean "warrior" or "man", this last a usage already then restricted to heroic poetry; at the time, beorn was a variant of the word for bear, just as freca was another word for wolf, and the audience expected and enjoyed hearing such words in the special circumstance of a performance by a scop.

The poet used high-sounding language to represent the heroic in the distant past. Tolkien therefore advised the translator to do the same, choosing verbs like "strike" and "smite" rather than "hit" or "whack", nouns like "guest" rather than "visitor", adjectives like "courteous" instead of "polite". His versions of Beowulf's voyage to Heorot in prose and verse, the latter in strictest Anglo-Saxon alliteration and metre[c] (with Tolkien's markup of metrical stresses), are:

Tolkien's high-sounding language, meant to echo the Beowulf poet's diction:

1. Beowulf 217-227 2. Tolkien's 1940 verse in "On Translating Beowulf"[d][37] 3. Tolkien's 1926 prose (176–185) in Beowulf: A Translation and Commentary[38]

1.
Gewat þa ofer wǣgholm | winde gefysed
flota famiheals | fugle gelicost,
oð þæt ymb antid | oþres dogores
wundenstefna | gewaden hæfde,
þæt ða liðende | land gesawon,
brimclifu blican, | beorgas steape,
side sænæssas; | þa wæs sund liden,
eoletes æt ende. | þanon up hraðe
Wedera lēode | on wang stigon,
sæwudu sældon,— | syrcan hrysedon,
guðgewædo;

2.
She wènt then over wáve-tòps, | wínd pursúed her,
fléet, fóam-thròated | like a flýing bírd;
and her cúrving prów | on its cóurse wáded,
till in dúe séason | on the dáy áfter
those séafàrers | sáw befóre them
shóre-cliffs shímmering | and shéer móuntains,
wíde cápes by the wáves: | to wáter's énd
the shíp had jóurneyed. | Then ashóre swíftly
they léaped to lánd, | lórds of Góthland,
bóund fást their bóat. | Their býrnies ráttled,
grím géar of wár.

3.
Over the waves of the deep she went sped by the wind,
sailing with foam at throat most like unto a bird,
until in due hour upon the second day her curving beak
had made such way that those sailors saw the land,
the cliffs beside the ocean gleaming,
and sheer headlands and capes thrust far to sea.
Then for that sailing ship the journey was at an end.
thence the men of the Windloving folk climbed swiftly up the beach,
and made fast the sea-borne timbers of their ship;
their mail-shirts they shook, their raiment of war.
— Wiki - Translating Beowulf

I numbered them because the 3 parallel texts didn't transfer well to TPF format.
Interesting to compare. For a quick understanding of the story, perhaps prose is better. It's more direct and not so much of a puzzle. However, it loses something of the compactness and the alliteration and kennings pulled me in at the start:
She wènt then over wáve-tòps, wínd pursúed her,
fléet, fóam-thròated like a flýing bírd;

I tend to write poetry every day, but my poems are short and ambiguous, very similar to haiku. I'm even still writing haiku. — javi2541997

You make it sound easy and ordinary, like taking breakfast! I usually prefer short and sweet to long and winding. But that might be about to change, since reading more about Beowulf.

It is the only way I can express how I feel. I think it would be impossible for me to describe how a sunset* feels otherwise. I only write in Spanish, but I dream that I will be able to write in English in the future. It is hard to switch emotions into another language. — javi2541997

Yes, sometimes only one word works for a nationality. Like the Scottish 'dreich', 'wheesht!' or 'scunnert'.

I think translators face major challenges in capturing the sense and emotions of any age or story.
What is the aim? How to achieve it in verse or prose? Direct v indirect phrasings? Old English verse with its strange language - compacting metaphors in kennings - is not to everyone's taste. And is perhaps better to spoken or sung aloud rather than read. I understand that Old English was chanted to string accompaniment.

This article is excellent! It includes excerpts of the original with its meaning unpacked by different translators. Side-by-side showing the effects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translating_Beowulf

My time is up. So much more to say...later, all! :sparkle:

Guilty, as charged and point taken — Paine

Ach, I knew ye were being a playful wee deil :naughty:

"the more that things change, the more they stay the same." — Paine

Hey, steady on! We're in danger of falling into the hole of transcendental unity. :monkey:

Alphonse Karr's quote "The more things change, the more they are the same" encapsulates a profound truth about the cyclicality of life and the underlying unity of all things. — Socratic-method - Alphonse Karr - quote meanings and interpretations

Nobel Laureate Seamus Heaney's new translation of Beowulf comes to life in this gripping audio. Heaney's performance reminds us that Beowulf, written near the turn of another millennium, was intended to be heard not read.

Composed toward the end of the first millennium of our era, Beowulf is the elegiac narrative of the adventures of Beowulf, a Scandinavian hero who saves the Danes from the seemingly invincible monster Grendel and, later, from Grendel's mother. He then returns to his own country and lives to old age before dying in a vivid fight against a dragon. - HighBridge Audio — Youtube - Joshuas Mirror

Beowulf - Seamus Heaney: Part 1 of 2 - with transcript [handy, if you don't have a spare hour to listen]

:smile: Hey, man! How ya hangin'? Did ye ken aboot kennings?

Anyway, thanks to the vast and wonderful work of translating by Borges, I started to read and flowing my imagination around. I'd like to feel free and open to interpretation while reading kennings. — javi2541997

Yes, like you, I continue to be fascinated by interpretation and translation :nerd:
Have you considered writing a kenning poem?
Translators of Ancient Languages deserve a medal for passion, work and mastery. I wonder what kenning could be created for the word 'translator'? Hmm...

An Old English epic keeps cropping up - Beowulf. So many types of translation. Here's a list of kennings from Seamus Heaney’s version:

Kennings for King

Ring-giver
Treasure-giver
Gold-giver
Homeland’s guardian
Guardian of the ring-hoard
Gold-friend to retainers
Shepherd of people

The first monster that Beowulf slays is Grendel, referred to as:

Hall-watcher
Corpse-maker
Shadow-stalker
Hell-brute

Beowulf has to face Grendel’s mother, a creature called:

Hell-bride
Hell-dam
Tarn-hag
Swamp-thing from hell
Terror-monger
— Old English Kennings

Culture — I like sushi

Thanks for opening another can of worms: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/culture

I wonder now if' stuff' is a bad word to express or refer to something. I am realising that I am using stuff' a lot while I interact with you, mates. I understand that it is not too important to express myself in a perfect manner, yet I guess that maybe I sound 'repetitive' in most of my posts and answers. — javi2541997

Oh, what a load of stuff and nonsense! OK. I use 'stuff' a lot, too. I like using it. It's what we are made of.

I think the word 'mate' can grate, just like the word 'friend' can offend. Or 'pal' can appal. It's like, man, people trying too hard to be part of a crowd, man.

We can be in danger of over-thinking and becoming too sensitive...that can be good or bad. Depending.
If I worry about being perfect (an impossibility!), then my mind would seize up :gasp:

We don't refer to worms but to mice to refer to that noun. We say: ratón de biblioteca — javi2541997

Another thing I didn't know. Ain't language cool, mate :cool:
Sure is, man :up:

The culture "war" happening here is happening everywhere. — Paine

Well, it could be argued that so-called 'culture wars' have been happening since time immemorial.

We solve it together or fall under the same sword. — Paine

Poetically drastic. How 'together' can the human race be?

Societal and religious divisions are all part and parcel of political battles as to who is right or best to lead a country. Even the term 'cultural war' is disputed:

Politicians like to provoke them, academics like to analyse them. Yet most people don’t even know what they’re all about.
[...]
Dominic Sandbrook: “What is certainly true,” he says, “is there are moments in history when disputes about history, identity, symbols, images and so on loom very large. Think about so much of 17th-century politics, for example, when people would die over the wording of a prayer book.” The same applies, he believes, to any number of periods, including the arrival of the permissive society in the 1960s, in which there is an attempt to establish new mores.

For Holland, the term culture war has a stricter meaning, relating to the German word Kulturkampf, which described the clash between Bismarck’s government and the Catholic church in 1870s Prussia. It is therefore specifically a dispute between religious and secular forces. Certainly if we look at America, where the modern incarnation of the culture wars was first identified, the conflicts over abortion and gay marriage have been fought, at least by one side, from an explicitly religious perspective. — Guardian - Social History - Culture wars

Hola, Javi, y muchas gracias :smile:

I am currently reading Borges, and he dedicated a chapter for reviewing 'kennings'...If you don't mind, Amity, I'd like to share a kenning I read before: — javi2541997

I'm very happy that you shared your reading and introduced something new to me, and probably others.

I am not very informed or acknowledged on Icelandic and Old Nordic poetry, so it is a bit difficult for me to follow some details and descriptions. — javi2541997

Yes, it's difficult to follow. However, I discovered that kennings are not only found in Old Nordic poetry.
Excellent information from: https://www.litcharts.com/literary-devices-and-terms/kenning

I remember the phrase 'rosy-fingered dawn' but it seems that is more of an 'epithet'?
I read here that 'the kenning form still has resonance today and crops up even when people are not purposely thinking up kennings.'

Strangely enough that reminded me of Il Postino, a film I started watching last night.
The postman and the poet, Neruda, are sitting together on a beach watching the ocean. Neruda spontaneously reacts with poetry (or perhaps he is reciting from memory). As the postman (Mario) listens in awe to a poem about the ocean, so do we. It comes easy. We feel and see the effect it has.
After Neruda finishes, Mario tells him:

“I felt like a boat tossing about on those words.”

The poet smiles. “You’ve invented a metaphor.”

“But it doesn’t count because I didn’t mean to,” Mario says.

“Meaning to is not important,” the poet says.

***
Some people don't need to be taught about poetry. They simply have it within, without knowing the terms. Sometimes, help is needed to bring out the creativity. I love to hear about how children can learn.
https://poetry4kids.com/lessons/how-to-write-a-kenning-poem/

***

Reflecting on the ambiguity of the brief poem above, most experts on Scandinavian literature and poetry agreed that 'the heather of the field of the cod' means seaweed. Fascinating, isn't it? This kind of poetry is helping me to improve my imagination. — javi2541997

It is indeed fascinating. How do I say 'book-worm' in Spanish? :wink:

Thanks for your response. :sparkle: