People have different limits of what they are ready to do in sudden events. Some by training, some by instinct...I figure our response is something we do not know ourselves. — Paine

Yes. Most think they have boundaries - drawing the line - which they would not cross in any event. Certain long-held positions and beliefs in place ready and waiting to be tested. Including bias and prejudice. I agree we might not always know how we would actually respond to sudden events. You would think that we might come prepared by exercises in 'What if...?' Or having perspectives/judgements when reading stories, real life or fiction.

Intuition or instinct often takes over when there is no time to think. What to do when you see someone in trouble in fast-flowing river or a wild sea. Would you jump in to save a dog, your dog?

We have patterns of thought, ways of looking at the world and judge ourselves and others. So, usual responses are pretty well known. Even if a white, male, American Christian does not act like we might expect or hope...

Earlier, I wrote:

I note this has been placed under 'Ethics', so is it a case that our behaviour to others reflects, is related to our taste and liking (aesthetics)? Are we more forgiving of friends than those we perceive as being hostile to us. Happier when we find beauty within and give expression to that in a smile, laughter and hope. Compared to feeling bad when we sense an ugly, mean spirit expressing hate?

Do you believe the balance between our focus on the positives and negatives has an optimal state or are we necessarily in various states of flux regarding how we regard others?
— I like sushi

I think humans are necessarily in a state of flux, depending on mood and circumstances. And what we digest - reading, listening, looking and learning, eating and drinking. If there is an intake imbalance, then our output might likewise be affected. The more we can be open to another perspective, no matter our 'likes/dislikes', the more we might understand and less likely to become unlovely, narrow-minded bigots. — Amity

The more we read of 'Americans' and their political/judicial system, the more we shake our heads.
But there is more than one kind of 'American'. Some voices are never heard or aren't recognised. It's scary to see the anger and violence that results. Always simmering under the surface. With guns, loved, polished and used. Beautiful to some, they symbolise individual control and believed to be a God-given right.

Back to the underlined above. @I like sushi, you didn't respond. There seems to be a path from aesthetics to ethics. Seeing people as 'lovely', or not. Loved or hated. The basis of how well they are treated. How practices are unjust towards those not favoured. The unforgiving good v bad.

I was thinking that writing that down might help me get out of the mental state I was in. I can't say it worked as I was hoping it might, — wonderer1

Yes. It probably takes more than a single poem to work wonders on a troubled mind.
However, it is effective. And you know that it's about more than you. There's the writer-reader relationship. I read it and felt the persisting, personal pain of the past and present...how memories can fade but yet flashbacks won't let you forget. It's mental.

[...] I see Michael in Patty's arms.
He is near a year old.
As Patty approaches though the crowd of strangers Jeff reaches out to take his son from his wife,
but Michael has spotted me,
and reaches out to be held,
by me.

But there is so much emptiness in this space now.
Thirty eight years,
and I only see bits and pieces of one.
Many of the bits are so faded,
amidst those that seem indelible in this space. — wonderer1

They say that time heals...
It made me think of war-time PTSD. And the WWI soldier/poets.
https://www.historyhit.com/culture/influential-poets-of-world-war-one/

I noted the contribution by a war-time nurse, Vera Brittain, who wrote her experiences into a poetry collection describing how little recognition the women at the front received.

This 'lack of recognition' is part of the pain. I've just listened to an audio book, 'The Women' by Kristen Hannah. It tells the story of a young nurse who served in the Vietnam War. How badly the soldiers and nurses were treated by the public - and some family - on return.

The use of drugs and alcohol - the process of recovery. I don't think such events can ever be forgotten but life moves on...it's mental. War. What is it good for...? Now, there's a question...

Thanks for the pointer. There is much to TPF that I haven't explored. — wonderer1

Yes, well. The 'hidden' is sometimes worth looking for...

Familiarity breeds ... "bizarre and beautiful spider" bites. — 180 Proof

Contempt with familiarity. I can see this in close long-term relationships when boredom sets in. Or everyday life with no obvious heroism. But the ordinary can be extraordinary.

Do you find that the more you know about someone/something that it leads to a loss of respect? Not valued as much as the initial impact on senses and intelligence?

Would you look for more excitement - an exotic bite that could kill ya'?

What about the closeness of family? Your Mum. She might bore you to death with her memories and repetition of stories but does that lead to contempt? Perhaps just fleeting if love still there...

Just as in philosophy, we read and respond to the same old questions and responses. But a love persists. We can re/engage by using imagination/creativity, building on tradition to think outside the box. Make it interesting by a turn of the head or eye-swivel.

Or mistaken identity – shock of recognition – (like "seeing a ghost"). Btw, I don't care for musicals — 180 Proof

:smile: A ghost did appear - my ex-husband! Love's sweet dream :smirk:
Musicals. I used to enjoy. Tastes change.
Sorry if I assaulted your (and others') senses with a negative aesthetic experience. But you probably didn't even watch the clip. Cringing is allowed. Without pain, there is no...

BTW, I think more men enjoy musicals than would care to admit - same with love stories :razz:

Thread Title: People Are Lovely

To the degree they are interesting (i.e. unfamiliar), I agree. — 180 Proof

Well, that's an interesting perspective :chin:

The unfamiliar certainly holds its attraction, as can the familiar. Like attracts like. Why we want who or what we want can be a magical mystery.

A bizarre and beautiful spider can be interesting. Right up until it exudes its venom through its fangs.

Your words had a strange effect. I thought: 'strangers across a crowded room'. First Love?
The shimmering image of the South Pacific (50's film) with its themes of romance, prejudice and war.

Some enchanted evening
Someone may be laughin',
You may hear her laughin'
Across a crowded room
And night after night,
As strange as it seems
The sound of her laughter
Will sing in your dreams.

Who can explain it?
Who can tell you why?
Fools give you reasons,
Wise men never try.

Some enchanted evening - South Pacific

:smile: Gotta love the Marcus but, of course, he's not always right - well, that is my opinion! :sparkle:

What I assume, from ChatGPT, is the formal notion of confirmation bias. It seems that within a context, one can even develop a confirmation bias towards the positives of people. — Shawn

Well, of course! Ain't that what I just said? :wink:

People Are Lovely

In what sense 'lovely'? Beautiful, attractive, pleasant, enjoyable. In a social situation are we easy-going and pleasing in manner? Loved and appreciated for being kind? Careful and caring.

I note this has been placed under 'Ethics', so is it a case that our behaviour to others reflects, is related to our taste and liking (aesthetics)? Are we more forgiving of friends than those we perceive as being hostile to us. Happier when we find beauty within and give expression to that in a smile, laughter and hope. Compared to feeling bad when we sense an ugly, mean spirit expressing hate?

Do you believe the balance between our focus on the positives and negatives has an optimal state or are we necessarily in various states of flux regarding how we regard others? — I like sushi

I think humans are necessarily in a state of flux, depending on mood and circumstances. And what we digest - reading, listening, looking and learning, eating and drinking. If there is an intake imbalance, then our output might likewise be affected. The more we can be open to another perspective, no matter our 'likes/dislikes', the more we might understand and less likely to become unlovely, narrow-minded bigots.

People seem to be attracted to, angered or swayed by, extreme stories in the media. Or just plain celebrity gossip. A daily, if not hourly fix of woe, angst, vicarious excitement.

As an additional and more personal question, do you find it hard to be nice to people? — I like sushi

Sometimes but not generally. It's about caring - not about yourself or what people think or how they look.
Start by being good to yourself. Not giving yourself too much of a hard time. Still that unbeautiful internal voice. Take good care of yourself.

But it's clear that even if we have a lovely garden, it might be a single weed that gets our attention. It stands out from the rest...and needs to be pulled.
Not that weeds are bad! And some wilder gardens can be just as beautiful in their own way.

I don't mention or even notice that every slice of bread is delicious and satisfying, but the odd mouldy crust gets my attention. — unenlightened

Yes, I think that is true. And one of the reasons I try to counterbalance any negativity by at least doubling the positive. Being aware of the pull of negative emotions. Accepting there will be 'low' moods but not dwelling there too long, when possible. Not always easy...

It's somewhere to go in TPF emergencies, but also an optional social space for different kinds of interactions — we'll see if and how that develops. — Jamal

Got it! :up: But still not persuaded to join, thanks. Have fun seeing how things go...best wishes!

But I guess only a few or even nobody is in that forum. The main point is to not leave behind our relationship and keep our data to the extent we could. I don't see the point of joining a random philosophy forum with moderators who are unknown to us, and we will not know how they would welcome us. — javi2541997

Your guess would be wrong. PN has an interesting history - it came with recommendations when I was a student. A long time ago...

NB - I'm not trying to persuade others to move. I understand the reasons for using Discord as a temporary solution for TPF's current problem. Thanks @Jamal and others for clarification.

This is not a 'me' against a 'we'. I happen to know PN, the magazine, the forum, participants and the mods from way back when, under a different name. Like TPF, it provided what I needed 'at that time' (2015 -18). It's not a 'random' forum. It is separate but related to PN proper. I'm looking forward to reading the mags and perhaps participate in any of the article discussions.

As @Baden wrote recently in Feedback: 'we all need to recognize where we are and act accordingly.'

I love TPF and all who sail in her. It still means a lot to me. Best wishes :heart: :sparkle: :flower:

OK. All of this has made me realise how important both philosophy and creativity matter to me.
I was reminded of other options. So, I re-visited 'Philosophy Now' and have subscribed to the magazine.
https://philosophynow.org/shop

I left the PN forum some time ago. Unfortunately, there are only 2 mods there - and it was pretty much an 'anything goes' bar scene. Not sure how it is now. Rick Lewis has more avenues to explore and invest his time in. We will see...

Yay! If all our issues could be so easily solved.

Discord has an article about Understanding and Avoiding Common Scams
https://discord.com/safety/understanding-and-avoiding-common-scams

and a blog updating you on crashes, bugs and fixes:
https://discord.com/blog/discord-patch-notes-august-30-2024

How to Discord
9 Tips for Hanging Out
https://discord.com/blog/9-tips-for-hanging-out-on-discord

I used up my available chances to edit my account, so now I have to wait 3 days. Fine. 3 days, 3 years, whatever. Screw it. — BC

Have fun whenever you get there :pray:

:lol: So damned funny. Now at great risk of dying from laughter.
Worried where this might lead...a nasty bout of Zeuxis-Chrysippusitis? Fuck :mask:

Thanks but all I see is messaging. So, yeah, 'dynamic' just like TPF Shoutbox.
Nothing like:

I prefer to take time to read, think and write calmly and carefully. So, 'more dynamic' holds no attraction. — Amity

Still, worth having as a temporary measure :up:
I doubt I will use it.
OK, must get on with...other stuff. It's been interesting :cool:

It's pretty much the same as this forum, just with a different interface. — fdrake

Can a screenshot be taken so I can see what you're all talking about?

Got ya'! 'Safe and sound' is a good enough expression but it raised my worried eyebrows and blood pressure :smile:

You're right. I didn't realise that some widnae ken whit it ment!

The phrase “out of the woods” is a common English idiom that is used to describe a situation where someone has overcome a difficult or dangerous challenge. This can refer to anything from recovering from an illness or injury, to solving a complex problem, or escaping danger.

Synonyms

Out of danger
Safe and sound
Free from harm
Secure
In the clear
Past the worst
Beyond trouble
In good shape again — Understanding 'out of the woods' idiom

There's a risk that Plush, our current platform, will cease operating before we manage to set up a new forum and move all the data across, so I've tried to ensure the community doesn't fall apart — Jamal

Ah, OK. That makes sense. I had thought that our personal data might be accessed/compromised.
I don't know much about the safe and sound concerns you mentioned when it comes to forums.
Good Luck with sorting things out :sparkle:

'Safe and sound' issues? What happens when the site is down, other than inaccessibility? — Amity

Still concerned about this. What are we at risk from?

Thanks for further explanation and for thinking ahead. Another 'hang out' like Shoutbox is not what I want/need but I know others do. Good idea! :up:

:smile: Well then, I think I can cope :cool:

I have no idea what 'easy dark mode' means! And after reading wiki, it doesn't seem to be a place I want/need to go.

In the event that this website closes, — javi2541997

If the website is in danger of closing down permanently, then perhaps the owner and Admin might consider creating a 'New TPF'? But I know they've been there before and done that...so very well :up: Perhaps it is indeed time for change and something different.

I'm not a fan of voice chat. So, if more TPF participants start to use Discord, then so be it.
Although I enjoy the company and discussions here, I would not be 'devastated' to leave. I've done so many times and survived. I don't think my absence would make all that much of a difference. I've exchanged email addresses with a few.

more dynamic than a forum. — javi2541997

I prefer to take time to read, think and write calmly and carefully. So, 'more dynamic' holds no attraction.

Life goes on. Refreshing. Best wishes to all :sparkle:

The site has been down for a while today and I don’t know if we’re safe and sound yet. It got me thinking we should have somewhere online to gather if that happens again.

So I urge you to join the new TPF Discord server now. Just follow this link and sign up to Discord if you’re not already on it.* — Jamal

'Safe and sound' issues? What happens when the site is down, other than inaccessibility?
Personally, I can cope with a temporary inconvenience without having another online place to gather.

I am not on Discord and I don't think I want to go there. Is it 'safe and sound'?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discord

Perhaps others can give feedback as to its benefits for TPF.

I wouldn't wish to start a thread on Murdoch's ideas at this stage due to repetition, but even though this thread has turned into a surreal mix of ideas, hopefully some will see the discussion here. I have been reading the essay'The Sovereignty of Good Over Other Concepts'. — Jack Cummins

No, I wouldn't expect you to start another thread. This one is flowing well with a kaleidoscope of multiple views, ideas and recommendations. It could well go on forever - the Eternal World of Jack and Friends. The thread I had in mind wouldn't be focused on Murdoch's ideas alone. But how they fit in with the bigger picture of...oh...well...Everything :wink:

I really don't know how you manage to read, digest and share so much, so quickly! I already feel overwhelmed but have ordered the hardback 'Metaphysics as a Guide to Morals' and 'The Nice and the Good' from Abe's 2nd hand bookstore. Only about £3 each with free shipping.

You are fortunate to have such a great library nearby. I've been reading a little about her ideas and writing online. For example https://www.themarginalian.org/2022/03/30/iris-murdoch-against-the-gods/

Includes Links to https://www.themarginalian.org/2019/10/21/iris-murdoch-unselfing/

I enjoy the aspects related to beauty, nature, attention and unselfing. 'The spirit relaxing into our essential nature, sharing existence'. (paraphrasing).
And can hardly believe she took on Plato in her own version of Dialogues! What an imagination.
The short and easy articles include works of art. Enjoy :smile:

*groans* - thanks for heaping yet another onto my pile :roll:

The title makes it seem as dry as dust but I read a short review and it seems she uses her literary gifts to present her ideas clearly and lightly:
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/iris-murdoch/metaphysics-as-a-guide-to-morals/

I am reading the volume of essays by Murdoch, 'Existentialists and Mystics: Writings on Philosophy and Literature', which I was fortunate to find in my local library. There is a lot to read and ponder in it, as it includes a lot of discussion, including a whole section on reading Plato.

One of the important aspects which I am finding in her work is her comparison between the arts and philosophy. This is pertinent in understanding Murdoch because she wrote novels and philosophy, so had experience in both fields. — Jack Cummins

Excellent. Probably deserves a thread of its own. Given my recent explorations into 'The Philosophy of Creativity', I would love a deeper focus on this. I am not likely to start a discussion anytime soon but simply gathering ideas. I think I might have to invest time in this book! :up:

For a lighter way into Iris Murdoch's themes and ideas. Where to start...

'Murdoch wanted her fiction to teach us lessons: often the lesson being about freedom, and how doing what you want will affect those around you.'

Murdoch's The Nice and the Good

Often there’s a balance in Murdoch’s novels between reality and unreality, where prosaic settings are coloured by heightened emotions and exaggerated elements, giving them a fantasy-like flavour. And this may be the novel of Murdoch’s which most draws on traditional fictional styles – a philosophical investigation you can curl up with – but retains all of her individuality. — The Booker Prizes - A Guide to Iris Murdoch's Best Novels

I haven't read it but it sounds good!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nice_and_the_Good

I will try to read more of Murdoch. So far. she seems to be engaged with very 20nth century problems. As a student of classical Greek literature, this is no advance in understanding the way views of the soul changed over time. — Paine

Murdoch wrote that in a sense it is true that philosophy makes no progress. From:

Iris Murdoch, Philosopher: A Collection of Essays - Reviewed.

This collection is a milestone in the history of Murdoch scholarship. It seeks to establish "that Murdoch is of importance and interest to the same people as read the moral philosophy of Kant and Plato or Philippa Foot and John McDowell". [...]

I am delighted by the increasingly sophisticated secondary literature on Murdoch's philosophy represented by Broackes' collection, but while reading it I found myself nostalgic for the intimacy of Murdoch's unmediated address.

I am referring here to the experience of reading, for the first time and without preconception, the opening sentences of The Sovereignty of the Good:

It is sometimes said, either irritably or with a certain satisfaction, that philosophy makes no progress. It is certainly true, and I think this is an abiding and not regrettable characteristic of the discipline, that philosophy has in a sense to keep trying to return to the beginning: a thing which is not all that easy to do. — Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews

If you haven't already, read Iris Murdoch's short book The Sovereignty of Good wherein she discusses 'beauty (art) as a way of seeing – attention to – reality' and therefore (an unorthodox) Platonic approach to moral judgment. — 180 Proof

I think that would be worthwhile :up:

I am still looking for a free version of Murdoch's essays on these topics so I shouldn't criticize what I have not read yet. — Paine

Yes, good idea. Free reading material is difficult to find. However...

You might find this helpful. If you can't bear the accent, a transcript is available:
@180 Proof - haven't watched it all, so not sure how correct it is?
The Sovereignty of Good (Iris Murdoch): Overview

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about Javi's post. Again, I understand that it was not his aim to have obvious philosophical content. I moved on from that to looking at how other creative threads/posts might be gathered together so that they can be easily accessed. But that seems to be of little concern.

As it stands it could've been a review in the Currently Reading thread, and thus Lounge — fdrake

The 'Currently Reading' thread is not in the Lounge, as I explained earlier. Jamal responded calling it an 'anomaly', giving historical reasons for it not being there.

Indeed, it seems funny to some that this and the Shoutbox are on the Main Page, despite 'philosophical content' not being their main focus or aim. I understand their attraction for the spirit of community. However, for me, it's problematic when it comes to fairness and consistent application of the rules. And differing ideas of what is philosophically valuable.

However, my questions re Philosophy of Creativity might be better posed in a separate thread, away from Feedback. A deeper discussion might be possible. However, right now I'm not up for starting or maintaining a thread.

Thank you :sparkle:

Thanks for the update and information about who can create new categories.

It would still be interesting to hear thoughts/considerations of The Philosophy of Creativity. For example, how it differs from Philosophy of Art. But I'll leave it here for now. At risk of a severe headache...

@fdrake - you're an Admin, I should have addressed questions to you.
Sorry :yikes:

What a great find :cool: Enjoy your break! :sparkle:

You guys :lol:

That's one reason I decided to step out of admin shoes. It's a philosophy, not an art, forum, and I don't feel I do enough philosophy on here now to justify being an admin. I remain a mod because I think I can still offer enough to the site to justify that. But we all need to recognize where we are and act accordingly. — Baden

Ah, I didn't realise you were no longer Admin or involved in any potential revision of Guidelines. People do admin all the time without having any expertise in the field - thinking NHS :wink: But, yeah, other reasons...

Glad you're still a mod! and relaxing into your creative spirit :party:

Good to hear from you!

...the forum is set up to prioritize philosophical content on the first page, so that means less-philosophical content may be put in the lounge. — Baden

Understood. However, as I have argued, creativity does have an important place in philosophy and should have a dedicated space.

To me, that's not a value judgement: "Less-philosophical" does not equal "worse" in a general sense, but logically it equates to a lower priority overall on a philosophy forum. Otherwise, we would need to redescribe / rename ourselves. — Baden

Well, I think giving it a lower priority is a value judgement. There's no need to change the name of the forum. That would be ridiculous.

For the literary event part, I think once a year makes it more special. However, I encourage creative activity year round. The "Get Creative" thread is part of that and anyone can write a short story any time and post it in the category set up for that. — Baden

OK, thanks. So, around December time? Looking forward to hearing more, later.
The 'Get Creative!' thread is only a small part along with the other parts. All well hidden in the Lounge/ Symposium. Most newcomers would be unaware of their existence. Even oldies haven't posted there for some time.

I've been thinking about where they might be gathered, sensibly, under a useful and accessible philosophy category.

Has anyone considered 'Philosophy of Creativity'? That would be a place where we could discuss the value of creativity (theory) AND also give expression to it (practice). Telling and Showing its worth. @Jamal, other mods, anyone?

Abstract
This is the opening chapter to The Philosophy of Creativity: New Essays. It argues that since creativity is such a significant aspect of the human experience, and since it raises a wealth of philosophical questions, it deserves much more attention than it currently receives in philosophy.

It also argues for the fruitfulness of interdisciplinary exchange, integrating philosophical insights with research in experimental psychology. Providing an overview of the field and of the subsequent essays in the volume, this chapter surveys issues such as the definition of creativity, the role of consciousness in the creative process, the role of the audience in the creation of art, the emergence of creativity through childhood pretense, whether great works of literature give us insight into human nature, whether a computer program can really be creative, whether creativity is a virtue, the difference between creativity in science and art, and whether creativity can be taught—both in general and within philosophy itself. — Academic.oup - The Philosophy of Creativity

Also, this: https://philosophyterms.com/philosophy-of-creativity/

Pleasantly surprised by this. Not what I was expecting in 'Feedback'.

I'm assuming 'The space with Michael' is written by you. Perhaps inspired by 2 of your posts - related to 'How might 'metaphysical imagination' be used?' in @Jack Cummins' thread 'How Surreal are Ideas?' where you spoke of being unwilling to share an extremely personal experience. Then managed to express this PTSD in another discussion: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/929238

The poem creatively encapsulates your story.

...But perhaps compressed within those few lines is something with an ability to show us a part of ourselves or the world that we hadn't previously recognized. — wonderer1

It reminded me of other creative writing by TPF members. And, annoyingly, I couldn't find them.
First, you need to sign in to see the category 'The Symposium', under this lies 'Short Stories'.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/40/short-stories

Here you will find @Jamal's sticky'Show Us Your Fiction!' and other stand-alone stories and ideas. The ones that stayed in my mind were: @Benkei's 'Letter from Oslo, @Tobias 'Eden by Night' and @Jack Cummins - 'Flash Fiction and Writing Prompts'

There was also an active Lounge thread - @Baden's 'Get Creative!' - but last post was 10 months ago.

And under another category'Article Submissions', I found my thread, started 6yrs ago! https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/4858/critical-thinking-and-creativity-reading-and-writing/p1

I think it was here that @ArguingWAristotleTiff suggested the revival of the Short Stories Competition. Now, changed to 'Literary Event', including micro-stories and poems. With thought-provoking feedback and discussions. Pretty damned fab :fire:

Anyway, no wonder I'm having a sense of déjà vu!
I'm so impressed by the way Jamal, Baden and others created and encouraged space for creativity in a philosophy forum. The way it encouraged writing, reading and reflecting.

I addressed this Feedback thread to @Baden and also enquired about the 'Literary Event'. I'm not sure how to interpret his lack of response - or anything from other mods. Perhaps there was a team meeting behind the scenes...

Having the Symposium as a Main Category was a good idea. There, the Shoutbox is stickied and also appears Top of the Main Page. Like the Lounge, another chattering place for the community.
There's plenty opportunity for creativity but hell, the pieces are scattered all over the place...buried so deep to be invisible and even if read, later responses don't surface. Can't there be a dedicated place to bring this all together and be more accessible?

Just sayin'. I suppose I'm concerned that the enthusiasm for creative expression is dwindling. And that there is a return, a move back, to pure philosophy and strict ways of writing. Perhaps, I'm wrong and best to 'let it be'.

Let it Be - the Beatles

When I find myself in times of trouble
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom
Let it be

And in my hour of darkness
She is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom
Let it be

Let it be, let it be
A-let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom
Let it be
[...]
And when the night is cloudy
There is still a light that shines on me
Shine until tomorrow
Let it be

I don't think the link I provided earlier is the best source. Its focus mostly on the modern. There are no quotes from the ancient hedonists, e.g. Epicurus.

As for Plato's work about 'a wild drunken party where all the best philosophers gather to discuss the pleasures of love'. Well. Assuming this is the Symposium, this isn't a correct depiction. For sure, some drink would have been present, it's a banquet. However, I think Socrates - as the only philosopher present - encouraged other participants, eminent men to take turn in giving a series of speeches on eros. Each arguing their perspective, as in in a competition.

Epicurus taught that the point of all one’s actions was to attain pleasure (conceived of as tranquility) for oneself, and that this could be done by limiting one’s desires and by banishing the fear of the gods and of death. Epicurus’ gospel of freedom from fear proved to be quite popular, and communities of Epicureans flourished for centuries after his death. — IEP - Epicurus

So, a different connotation from the modern. He advocated a simple, moderate life. Excess leads to pain. Pleasure is the absence of troubles to mind and body.

Another of Plato's dialogues - the Philebus - is concerned with whether pleasure or reason and wisdom are the good.

Philebus and Protarchus are hedonists; they consider pleasure as the highest good and equate it with the absolute Good. Socrates represents the opposing view, prioritizing reason and insight. While he does not dispute the legitimacy and value of pleasure, he points out the diversity of pleasures and argues for a more nuanced assessment. — Wiki - Philebus

So, it is not a case of one or the other. It is the source of pleasure that counts. The life of the mind can give pleasure - as at TPF - working through the pain pricks as we try to understand.

I think reading the Symposium can provide an 'aesthetic experience' - being there a blast! :party:

My understanding is that Hedonism was the original Stoicism. — I like sushi

OK. You could also say that we are all hedonists but that doesn't preclude having a stoic attitude.
We can seek pleasure at the same time as seeing importance of wellbeing and ways to reach optimal state for self.

Historical relationships and influences:

During the Greek and Roman periods, hedonism was popular but controversial; many Greeks worshipped a god called Dionysus, the god of wine and pleasure. His festivals were crazy hedonistic parties with plenty of drinking, overeating, and reckless behavior. The traditional religious authorities permitted and in some cases encouraged this sort of hedonism. It even played a role in philosophy: one of Plato’s most famous works is all about a wild drunken party where all the best philosophers gather to discuss the pleasures of love.

Philosophy in the later Roman Empire was dominated by Stoicism, a philosophy with a complex relationship to hedonism. The Stoics are usually thought of as opposite to hedonists. They argued for rigorous discipline and control of the emotions; they were somewhat ascetics. But they also believed in training their minds to get pleasure out of behaving in a healthy and moral way. This strongly resembles Buddhism and many historians believe that Stoicism was influenced by the Greek contact with Buddhists in what is now Pakistan, where Buddhism ruled at that time. — Hedonism

More to say later...it's sunny out...:cool:

Edit:

How this relates to aesthetics though is something I feel is important but it has not registered properly in any rational sense. — I like sushi

Say more? Perhaps we need to talk to Plato (see above)...

I was thinking more along the lines of feeling passionate — I like sushi

Well, why didn't you say so! :roll: :smile: Will read later...

perhaps a stoic finds meaning in the understanding of works of art, whereas a hedonist finds meaning in being attracted, surprised, provoked etc by works of art. Therefore, it might matter for the hedonist whether a work is ugly or beautiful or at least interesting. — jkop

Perhaps. I don't know. There are so many different kinds of people attracted to different types of either system of belief. Does it help to know what philosophical Hedonism means ? 6 types identified here:
https://iep.utm.edu/hedonism/

Again, 'works of art' - creative expression of any type is meaningful for different reasons. It can cause pain or pleasure - Jeezy peeps, that hurts my eyes/ears - that blows my mind...God, thank you for the world in all its glory and challenges. I'll paint the roof in appreciation.

For me, an 'aesthetic appreciation' can be at any level and is not necessarily '-ism' dependent.
Usually, an understanding, deeper meaning comes after the immediate impact on the senses.

This can involve how 'passionate' we are about the object or our aims. A hedonist might simply aim to please self at the expense of others. A stoic might want to reign in the passions so as to live a balanced life. It depends.