Well...that was a different kinda philosophical song :smile:
Singing and rapping. Sound and poetry and scatting...
'Gleaning by listening' - 'We're all improvising' - 'Just be happy' - 'Do everything with love' -
'Always love yourself'.
Ta :sparkle:

I never know he could be so soulful ... this is what I need while we wait for an acquittal to break our hearts. :eyes: — 180 Proof

When I first listened to Peter Frampton...I was blown away by how he made the guitar 'talk'.
Didn't realise until much later that he used a 'talk box' guitar effect on 'Frampton Comes Alive' (1976).

From wiki:

Frampton's talk box was used to transfer the guitar's sound through a plastic tube attached to a microphone. The effect is Frampton's melodic guitar simulating speech while asking the audience on the live track "Do You Feel Like We Do?"

Also from wiki I discovered that:

... he's received a diagnosis that he has inclusion body myositis (IBM), a progressive muscle disorder characterized by muscle inflammation, weakness, and atrophy (wasting).

...In December, 2019, Frampton announced his farewell UK tour to consist of five performances in May 2020.[52] In April this UK/EU tour was cancelled "because of the COVID-19 virus.

So yes, this video ( April 2021 ) says it loud and clear - 'Isn't it a Pity'.
Wearing various t-shirts with slogans like 'Music Saves' and 'Save Music Venues'.
Also loving life even when physically isolated from family. Keeping connected via technology until he received his second Covid vaccination - the world moves on...

George Harrison - could he even have imagined his song about relationships breaking down would be used to great effect here. Instrumental only.

'We all tend to break each other's hearts, taking and not giving back - isn't is a pity.' (p170, 'I, Me, Mine')
On the opposite page, the handwritten lyrics on a torn out page from spiral notepad.
2nd verse:

Somethings take so long - but how do I explain - when not too many people, can see we're all the same and because of all their tears - their eyes cannot hope to see - the beauty that surrounds them isn't it a pity.
Instrumental.
Repeat (1).

Thanks, George & Nina. Thanks, Peter. — 180 Proof

Thanks to you too for sharing - amazing sound and film :sparkle:

A haunting reply to "All You Need is Love" almost exactly a year later ... — 180 Proof

Haunting and a wee bit weird at the end.
From p132 of GH's autobiography:

'The 'you' in Long, Long, Long is God. I can't recall much about it except the chords which I think were coming from Sad Eyed Lady of the Low Land - D to E minor, A and D - those 3 chords and the way they moved.
There was a bottle of 'Blue Nun' wine on top of the Leslie speaker and when our Paul hit some organ note the Leslie started vibrating and the bottle rattling. You can hear it on the record - at the very end.'

'Blue Nun' and whatever else they were taking - I think the bottle rattling set George and Ringo off on a trip where they just let rip. That howl from George... :scream:

'Sad-Eyed Lady of the Low Lands' - Bob Dylan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c1NJPCN6nA

Lyrics:
https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobdylan/sadeyedladyofthelowlands.html

Well, you're in for a treat if you like daoism and haven't read the "Zhuangzi". It's a philosophical treatise which is actually funny at times. I highly recommend reading at least the "Inner Chapters"..

Anyway, here's a link to the "Zhuangzi":
https://ctext.org/daoism — Ying

Just popping in to say thanks for all the information you provided.
Luckily for me and my level of understanding @Wayfarer mentioned this on p4 - about a month ago...doesn't time fly...
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/510086
Also @Valentinus p8
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/511050
And @Amity
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/511470
'An instructive story regarding wei wu wei, literally 'doing not-doing'.
Cook Ding Cuts Up an Ox'
Appreciated later feedback from both Wayfarer and Valentinus, an example:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/512233

I had downloaded the Zhuangzi, the Burton-Watson translation from the terebess website. Shared with @Jack Cummins and I am still reading it.
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/Zhuangzi-Burton-Watson.pdf

However, your link is quite amazing. I clicked on Ch1:
https://ctext.org/zhuangzi/enjoyment-in-untroubled-ease
And found not only a translation by Legge but small clickable boxes:
Blue: jump to dictionary; you can hover over each Chinese character for the meaning; opposite is the translation.
Yellow: show parallel passages
Orange with blue arrow: show added information

More importantly for this thread - the same can be done for the TTC:
https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing#n11592
The dictionary:
https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&id=11592

I am taking time out from the thread but following closely, reading beyond...
I include this in the hope that it is helpful:
https://iep.utm.edu/zhuangzi/

Paying close attention to the textual associations, we see that wandering is associated with the word wu, ordinarily translated ‘nothing,’ or ‘without.’ Related associations include: wuyou (no ‘something’) and wuwei (no interference). Roger Ames and David Hall have commented extensively on these wu expressions.

Most importantly, they are not to be understood as simple negations, but have a much more complex function. The significance of all of these expressions must be traced back to the wu of Laozi: a type of negation that does not simply negate, but places us in a new kind of relation to ‘things’—a phenomenological waiting that allows them to manifest, one that acknowledges the space that is the possibility of their coming to presence, one that appreciates the emptiness that is the condition of the possibility of their capacity to function, to be useful (as the hollow inside a house makes it useful for living).
The behavior of one who wanders beyond becomes wuwei: sensitive and responsive without fixed preconceptions, without artifice, responding spontaneously in accordance with the unfolding of the inter-developing factors of the environment of which one is an inseparable part. — Steve Coutinho

[emphasis added]

* wandering off now *

'All You Need is Love'- The Beatles ( written by John Lennon)

https://vimeo.com/252765355

The song was Britain's contribution to Our World, the first live global television link, for which the band were filmed performing it at EMI Studios in London on 25 June [1967].The programme was broadcast via satellite and seen by an audience of over 400 million in 25 countries.
Lennon's lyrics were deliberately simplistic, to allow for the show's international audience, and captured the utopian ideals associated with the Summer of Love. — wiki

All You Need Is Love
The Beatles
Love, love, love
Love, love, love
Love, love, love

(Love, love, love)
There's nothing you can do that can't be done
(Love, love, love)
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
(Love, love, love)
Nothing you can say
But you can learn how to play the game
It's easy

(Love, love, love)
Nothing you can make that can't be made
(Love, love, love)
No one you can save that can't be saved
(Love, love, love)
Nothing you can do
But you can learn how to be you in time
It's easy

All you need is love
All you need is love
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need

(Love, love, love)
(Love, love, love)
(Love, love, love)

All you need is love
All you need is love
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need

(Love, love, love)
Nothing you can know that isn't known
(Love, love, love)
Nothing you can see that isn't shown
(Love, love, love)
There's nowhere you can be
That isn't where you're meant to be
It's easy

All you need is love
All you need is love
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need

All you need is love (All together now)
All you need is love (Everybody)
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need

Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)
Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)
Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)
Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)

Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)
Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)
Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)
Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)

Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)
Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)
Love is all you need
(Love is all you need)
(Love is all you need)
(Love is all you need)

(Love is all you need) Yesterday
(Love is all you need) Oh, love is all you need
Love is all you need (Oh yeah)
Love is all you need (She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah)
(She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah)
(Love is all you need)
(Love is all you need)

Songwriters: Lennon John Winston, Mccartney Paul James
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

'Imagine' - John Lennon (with lyrics)

https://vimeo.com/421928389

but no link to the last track, — 180 Proof

? I did enter a link - not quite as cool as yours :cool:
... and then found this one:
look out for John and Yoko waltzing - from film 'Let It Be' *
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnwmrAMqA6c

finished at the last session, on the last album: — 180 Proof

Yes, I didn't realise that at the time...
but did remember the roof top - apparently it was an unannounced concert - the last public performance of the Beatles,1970.

'All Those Years Ago' - George Harrison ( dedicated to John Lennon )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBpvLTM1LK8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UI0mWnh_zk

"All Those Years Ago"

I'm shouting all about love
While they treated you like a dog
When you were the one who had made it so clear
All those years ago

I'm talking all about how to give
They don't act with much honesty
But you point the way to the truth when you say
All you need is love

Living with good and bad
I've always looked up to you
Now we're left cold and sad
By someone the devil's best friend
Someone who offended all

We're living in a bad dream
They've forgotten all about mankind
And you were the one they backed up to the wall
All those years ago
You were the one who Imagined it all
All those years ago

Deep in the darkest night
I send out a prayer to you
Now in the world of light
Where the spirit free of the lies
And all else that we despised

They've forgotten all about God
He's the only reason we exist
Yet you were the one that they said was so weird
All those years ago
You said it all though not many had ears
All those years ago
You had control of our smiles and our tears
All those years ago

Thanks for providing the lyrics. And for the theme as inspired by @j0e :sparkle:

'See Yourself' - George Harrison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6byTftvSQyo

"See Yourself"

It's easier to tell a lie than it is to tell the truth
It's easier to kill a fly than it is to turn it loose
It's easier to criticize somebody else
Than to see yourself

It's easier to give a sigh and be like all the rest
Who stand around and crucify you while you do your best
It's easier to see the books upon the shelf
Than to see yourself

It's easier to hurt someone and make them cry
Than it is to dry their eyes
I got tired of fooling around with other people's lies
Rather I'd find someone that's true

It's easier to say you won't than it is to feel you can
It's easier to drag your feet than it is to be a man
It's easier to look at someone else's wealth
Than to see yourself

'We all think you're wonderful. We do' :cool:

'Me, myself and I' - reminds me of George Harrison's autobiography 'I - Me- Mine'.
I bought it some time ago and think a revisit is in order *
I didn't realise that the book title was also one of his songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seqaTuXkqFI

...it was the last new track recorded by the band before their break-up in April 1970. The song originated from their January 1969 rehearsals at Twickenham Film Studios when they were considering making a return to live performance. Written at a time of acrimony within the group, the lyrics lament humankind's propensity for self-centredness and serve as a comment on the discord that led to Harrison temporarily leaving the Beatles. The musical arrangement alternates between waltz-time verses and choruses played in the hard rock style. — wiki

* as well as his story, it includes photographs, lists of songs, some with handwritten lyrics and a paragraph of explanation.

I, ME, MINE is the 'ego' problem...suddenly I looked around and everything I could see was relative to my ego...I hated everything about my ego...it was a flash of everything false and impermanent which I disliked. But later, I learned from it: to realise that there is somebody else in there apart from old blabbermouth. Who am 'I' became the order of the day.

Anyway, that's what came out of it: I Me Mine..
Allen Klein thought it was an Italian song - you know, Cara Mia Mine but it's about the ego: the eternal problem... (p158). — George Harrison

OK, so i couldn't resist the look-up:

'Cara Mia' - Jay & The Americans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sFy5_kmEi4

I am Progress :smile:

U2 :cool:

[ for Laurie & Desiree, back in the day, who broke each other's heart on the way to both breaking off a heavy piece of mine ] — 180 Proof

:broken:
???

Listening to this - on the other music thread :scream:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/523208

'Wind of Change' - Scorpions (with the Berliner Philharmoniker )

Thanks to @Ying :sparkle:

Beautiful. And also with the Berliner Philharmoniker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnpMmAEUNCQ


Lyrics:
Wind of Change
Scorpions
I follow the Moskva
Down to Gorky Park
Listening to the wind of change

An August summer night
Soldiers passing by
Listening to the wind of change

The world is closing in
Did you ever think
That we could be so close, like brothers?

The future's in the air
Can feel it everywhere
I'm blowing with the wind of change

Take me to the magic of the moment

On a glory night
Where the children of tomorrow dream away (dream away)
In the wind of change

Walking down the street
Distant memories
Are buried in the past forever

I follow the Moskva
Down to Gorky Park
Listening to the wind of change
Take me to the magic of the moment
On a glory night (a glory night)
Where the children of tomorrow dream away (dream away)
In the wind of change (the wind of change)

The wind of change blows straight
Into the face of time
Like a storm wind that will ring
The freedom bell for peace of mind
Let your balalaika sing
What my guitar wants to say

Take me to the magic of the moment
On a glory night (a glory night)
Where the children of tomorrow dream away (dream away)
In the wind of change (the wind of change)

Songwriters: Klaus Meine

In German:

Ich folge der Moskva
Runter zum Gorky Park
Dem Wind der Veränderung lauschend

Eine Sommernacht im August
Soldaten marschieren vorbei
Dem Wind der Veränderung lauschend

Die Welt wird kleiner
Und hast du je gedacht
Dass wir so nahe sein könnten, wie Brüder?

Die Zukunft liegt in der Luft
Ich kann sie fühlen, überall
Sie weht mit dem Wind der Veränderung

Bring mich zu der Magie des Moments
In einer glorreichen Nacht
Wo die Kinder von Morgen vor sich hinträumen
Im Wind der Veränderung

Laufe die Straße hinunter
Und ferne Erinnerungen
Sind für immer in der Vergangenheit begraben


Ich folge der Moskva
Runter zum Gorky Park
Dem Wind der Veränderung lauschend

Bring mich zu der Magie des Moments
In einer glorreichen Nacht
Wo die Kinder von Morgen ihre Träume teilen
Mit dir und mir

Bring mich zu der Magie des Moments
In einer glorreichen Nacht
Wo die Kinder von Morgen vor sich hinträumen
Im Wind der Veränderung

Der Wind der Veränderung bläst geradewegs
Ins Gesicht der Zeit
Wie ein Sturm, der
Die Freiheitsglocke für den Frieden der Gedanken läuten wird
Lass deine Balalaika singen
Was meine Gitarre sagen will.

Bring mich zu der Magie des Moments
In einer glorreichen Nacht
Wo die Kinder von Morgen ihre Träume teilen
Mit dir und mir


Bring mich zu der Magie des Moments
In einer glorreichen Nacht
Wo die Kinder von Morgen vor sich hinträumen
Im Wind der Veränderung
Writer(s): Klaus Meine Lyrics powered by www.musixmatch.co

Heard it a few hours ago - being performed outside a nursing care home...for someone's birthday party.
The sun was shining and all felt right with the world...for at least a couple of minutes...

'The Wonder of You' - Elvis Presley ( with Royal Philharmonic Orchestra )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIDyNfJzLd8

The Wonder of You
Elvis Presley
Oh oh oh
When no one else can understand me
When everything I do is wrong
You give me hope and consolation
You give me strength to carry on
And you're always there
To lend a hand in everything I do

That's the wonder
The wonder of you
(Wonder of you)

And when you smile, the world is brighter
You touch my hand, and I'm a king
Your kiss to me is worth a fortune
Your love for me is everything

I guess I'll never know
The reason why
You love me as you do
That's the wonder
The wonder of you

Oh oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh

I guess I'll never know the reason why
You love me as you do
That's the wonder
The wonder of you

Songwriters: Knight Baker
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

I have no problem with you disagreeing with the way I see things, but, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to respond to this. Are you asking me to stop giving my understanding because you don't like it? The TTC is a radical rejection of convention. Maybe "dismissal" is a better word than "rejection." Don't be surprised if you find it in conflict with some of your beliefs. You don't have to agree with me and you don't have to agree with Lao Tzu. — T Clark

It is not a matter of me convincing you or of you convincing me but of putting forward different perspectives for all interested to read, watch, listen and consider. Even if there are limited participants...this thread has received a lot of 'views'.

As we go forward, I will look for places in the text that are relevant to this issue. We can use those discussions to go deeper into this. — T Clark

That might be interesting, thanks. However, I am taking a break.
Following this, on your Mysticism thread:

I had never heard of 'unselfings' before this but have read Iris Murdoch.
I found this article by Jules Evans:
https://www.philosophyforlife.org/blog/iris-murdoch-on-techniques-of-unselfing

I think my time would be better spent on reading such.
A re-visit to Iris Murdoch and listening to her might be just what is right for me, right now.
Either way, I need to get out for a breather... — Amity

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/522233

:sparkle:

I bought Murdoch’s Metaphysics as a Guide to Morals — Wayfarer

From Amazon:

'This book represents the summation of Murdoch's work as a philosopher. It surveys the development of Western philosophy, from Plato to Schopenhauer and Wittgenstein, and takes issue with new trends such as structuralism, arguing the case for a moral view in metaphysical argument. Iris Murdoch has written a number of short philosophical works including "The Fire and the Sun" and "Sartre: Romantic Rationalist".]

ecstasy - ex outside of; stasis - ‘business as usual’.
— Wayfarer
:fire:

My preferred - idiosyncratic - notion is 'ecstasy' rather than 'mysticism'; ecstatic practices -
what Iris Murdoch calls unselfings - rather than mystical, or spiritual, exercises (i.e. union with (some) 'transcendent' (something)); ego-suspending via everyday living (i.e. encounters (à la Buber) - sleep, play, prayer, meditation, or contemplation via [ ... ] and/or hallucinogens) rather than ego-killing via ritualized ascetics (e.g. monasticism, militarism, etc). Not religious, not spiritual, not mystical - but I am (an) ecstatic.
— 180 Proof — 180 Proof

[emphasis added]

The Greek word which appears is έκ-στασις and then means "to be or stand outside oneself, a removal to elsewhere" — javi2541997

[emphasis added]

I haven't lifted my head out of @T Clark thread on the Tao Te Ching (TTC) for so long.
This morning I thought I would peek in here to see what I could see...
I found the above quotes which relate to the current discussion of Verse 18 of the TTC and 'ego'.

Not sure about 'acting from our true natures' - what is your true nature ?
What do you think of how our egos and personality colour the way we understand and interact with others when we discuss the TTC ? I too see the TTC as a guidebook - but how we are guided depends on the translation. We can be led astray...

In Derek Lin's YouTube presentation of Ch13, lines 8-12 he paraphrases his translation:
The greatest misfortune is the self. How is it our biggest problem is the ego ? Think about all the troubles we get into when the ego is out of control. The issue here is to dial down the sense of self-importance.
13-16: The greatest rulers are the ones who can transcend the ego. They feel concern for the greater good. The greatest individuals are ones who love something greater than themselves; the family, team and community. They are the ones who can truly take charge of their own destiny.

Some might say, "Get over yourself !"... — Amity

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/521801

I had never heard of 'unselfings' before this but have read Iris Murdoch.
I found this article by Jules Evans:
https://www.philosophyforlife.org/blog/iris-murdoch-on-techniques-of-unselfing

I think my time would be better spent on reading such.
A re-visit to Iris Murdoch and listening to her might be just what is right for me, right now.
Either way, I need to get out for a breather...
Thanks :sparkle:

Ta for explanation :up:

I recognize my true nature. I can feel it. Sometimes. Wu wei is acting from our true nature. Sometimes I can do that. I know what wu wei feels like. — T Clark

OK. That could be the start of another debate but I'll leave it there.

No, I don't think we can be lead astray, not if we focus on the experience rather than the words. — T Clark

As above.

This explication makes sense to me. — T Clark

Yay !! :up: to Derek Lin :starstruck:

Yes. Also, Valentinus is a mason. — T Clark

Really ? Does that mean he gets plastered :party:

How does it make someone irresponsible not to value hope? I could see "wrong" or even "deluded," but why "irresponsible." — T Clark

That's not what I said. Here:

I think this is where I disagreed with you most due to my concern that I couldn't see how any responsible person would believe that hope is not a good thing — Amity

My concern was that this translation appears negative about hope. I think that when we send out that kind of message, it is possible that we are not thinking enough about the implications for hopeful readers who don't look beyond...and take that at face value.
It concerns me when some talk of the body, fear and hope as being illusions. It is important to recognise the reality. The whole interaction of body, mind and spirit.
I suppose that is where any 'irresponsibility' could enter the picture. Hope can be seen as good or bad. It depends. Most times, I think, it is what motivates people to carry on in adverse circumstances.
Even if if is a false hope - isn't it something like 'love' ?
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all' - Tennyson.

I reread Lin's translation and comments. He doesn't put it in the same terms as Mitchell, but I don't see anything inconsistent. — T Clark

OK. But I will repeat:

I see nothing there about hope not being a good thing. — Amity

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/521793

It's ok if you and Possibility disagree with the way I understand what Lao Tzu is saying. I don't understand why it seems to bother you both so much. — T Clark

I can't speak for @Possibility - but I hope my attempt above offers some clarification.
We don't always disagree with the way you understand the TTC.
Your input is much appreciated, in any case. It makes me think. Thanks :smile:

Thanks for sharing :cool:

This cartoon reflects how the society of Spain is divided by political issues... far from football we cannot be united. — javi2541997

The bottom bubble:
I think it reads: pero no te olvides de guinea escuatorial
Trans: but don't forget equatorial guinea

Is that a hot political football ?

A penguin has something to say on the subject of hope. Cartoon of the day. Hopeless and flightless.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/521859

Who needs hope when you have penguins... :roll:
According to the flightless hope truther 'letting go of hope isn't giving up. It's realistic'.
Agree/disagree/no comment ?
I disagree: we can be both realistic and have hope...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/12/racked-with-guilt-and-grief-and-climate-despair-how-do-we-go-on

I do agree with T Clark’s sentiment here. I think the TTC draws our attention to the relations in our experience, and invites us to look closer at what is going on. I also think it helps to get our ego/fear/desires/affect out of the way first, though. — Possibility

Yes. I am sorry I missed that out in my earlier response.
Typically only zooming in on what I found question worthy. Here it is again:

For me, the TTC was like a pair of gloves I found. I put them on and they fit, so I've worn them ever since. My intellectual, spiritual, emotional, and social path for more than 50 years has been toward more self-awareness. For me, the TTC is another brick in that wall, but it's also a guidebook. It's about acting from our true natures. For me, Lao Tzu is saying - look, over there. See that? Pay attention to that. See this here? Pay attention. — T Clark

The impact of the TTC on someone - here @T Clark - who is trying to become more self-aware is incredible. I just wonder about the actual effects; the if and how any behaviour patterns are changed. Anyone can jump in here ! @Valentinus @Wayfarer @javi2541997 et al...

I guess that the phrase 'another brick in the wall' is seen here as a positive - another way to build up towards the aim of increased self-awareness or self-realisation.

It brought to mind Pink Floyd's 'Another Brick in the Wall' which included the famous line: 'We don't need no education'.

The lyrics attracted controversy. The Inner London Education Authority described the song as "scandalous", and according to Renshaw, prime minister Margaret Thatcher "hated it".[11] Renshaw said: "There was a political knee-jerk reaction to a song that had nothing to do with the education system. It was [Waters'] reflections on his life and how his schooling was part of that."[11] — wiki

Anything that invites us to look closer at what is going on, including the education system is all to the good. And yes, the TTC reinforces that need - to be aware, to attend, to pay careful attention.
That can be part of our growing awareness as we experience life. If we listen to others as well as our own selves. To change if necessary...

I like to say ‘get out of my own way’... — Possibility

Well, I talk to myself too - and it's 'Get over yourself !' :smile:

We can allow for how we feel, even move it aside, but not ignore it - affect forms our potential to think, speak and collaborate. Without it, we cannot be aware that we exist. And intellect is a part of our way to the Tao, but not our goal. Without it, we cannot be aware of the Tao to follow, let alone construct a suitable path... — Possibility

Yes. I think that is right :sparkle:

For me, the TTC is another brick in that wall, but it's also a guidebook. It's about acting from our true natures. For me, Lao Tzu is saying - look, over there. See that? Pay attention to that. See this here? Pay attention. — T Clark

Not sure about 'acting from our true natures' - what is your true nature ?
What do you think of how our egos and personality colour the way we understand and interact with others when we discuss the TTC ? I too see the TTC as a guidebook - but how we are guided depends on the translation. We can be led astray...

In Derek Lin's YouTube presentation of Ch13, lines 8-12 he paraphrases his translation:
The greatest misfortune is the self. How is it our biggest problem is the ego ? Think about all the troubles we get into when the ego is out of control. The issue here is to dial down the sense of self-importance.
13-16: The greatest rulers are the ones who can transcend the ego. They feel concern for the greater good. The greatest individuals are ones who love something greater than themselves; the family, team and community. They are the ones who can truly take charge of their own destiny.

Some might say, "Get over yourself !"...

This judgment is your interpretation. The structure includes a number of options, including thinking and waiting in hope.
— Possibility

Yes, of course it's my interpretation, one that I think I have good justification for. Waiting in hope? As I've said several times, in my understanding, Lao Tzu does not think hope is a good thing. — T Clark

[emphasis added]

I think this is where I disagreed with you most due to my concern that I couldn't see how any responsible person would believe that hope is not a good thing. Discussed 20 days ago, p11.
I think that you were influenced by the Stephen Mitchell translation of Ch13.
The second line 'Hope is as hollow as fear'.
Expanded to 'Hope and fear are both phantoms'
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/513854

I have returned to Ch13 and listened to the Derek Lin translation and explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlLSFJlQAo
Again, it is lengthy just over an hour. However, the short paraphrase and summary starts at 55.27.
Well worth listening to re the structure. How the first 2 lines are the key statements, followed by an expansion as to their meaning.
Line 1 - Favour and disgrace make one fearful
Line 2 - The greatest misfortune is the self

It is best you listen for yourself, including the Summary re Introspection as inspired by the TTC.
Basically, to elevate your thinking beyond yourself, to care for something greater than yourself.
Our biggest problem is the ego that reacts to words of praise or criticism; there is a tendency to desire positive opinions and avoid criticism perceived as negative.

I see nothing there about hope not being a good thing.
It is this kind of translation that @Possibility warns against.
I agree that great care must be taken when reading the TTC and to ask 'Does this sound right?'
Modern language might not be as accurate as we would wish, it depends on the knowledge and experience of the translator. They take the responsibility of making the text and meaning as accessible and clear as possible so that we can get a bit closer to the original, whatever that was.

As @Possibility makes clear to us all:

What matters is that you take responsibility for whatever inaccuracies you might be putting out there - that you claim them as your own, not attribute them to the TTC or to Lao Tzu. — Possibility

I’m not suggesting we abandon any talk of concepts or metaphors, only that we’re conscious of the obscurity that comes with it. So, when we talk about ‘knowledge’, for instance, we recognise that the TTC is not referring to the entire concept of knowledge, including our overall evaluation of it as ‘good’ or ‘bad’, but only one qualitative aspect of it, and any affect or judgement of ‘good’ or ‘bad’ is our own or the interpreter’s. — Possibility

I value your insight here and agree.

In the Derek Lin video, he asks the question:
Is it a positive thing to emphasise virtues like 'filial piety' ?

The answer is 'not necessarily' due to 4 reasons:
1. If we have to emphasise it, then we have already lost the natural touch
2. If we have to be reminded and work at it, then it is no longer effortless to be virtuous
3. It can be fake, pretentious and artificial
4. Recognising and rewarding this kind of virtue gives rise to competition

He uses the same pattern with the other concepts in Chapter 18.
Re 1 and 2: I think that being 'virtuous' can require both aspects; natural and positive action
Re 3 and 4: I think 'Yes but So what ?' - isn't that part of nature...

I am not persuaded by these arguments. Is that what the TTC argues for ?

The TTC is one of those books that reflects the saying: ‘when the student is ready, the teacher will appear’. It was pretty poetry to me for a long time - a collection of metaphors, which ‘spoke’ to me of a flow to existence that I wasn’t in a position to understand...yet. Later reading of it seemed to me a profound, intuitive truth - I could see that it made sense but not how, and sensed that embracing the truth could eliminate resistance, conflict and barriers in the way I related to the world...somehow. — Possibility

Thanks for relating your experience of reading and understanding the TTC.
My first physical book was aesthetically appealing and I enjoyed the poetry. I didn't really understand even this relatively simple translations. I dipped in to the 'sea' without full immersion.

Right now, I am struggling in this discussion.
I don't know what further 'truth' there is to be embraced in the TCC.
I have already experienced and absorbed e.g. the importance of quality and holistic care.
However, I am sticking with it; the discussion is valuable and is making an impact.
I appreciate your explanations and would be grateful for an example of how it changed the way you relate to the world... also @T Clark.

Words have meaning inclusive of their value and potential based on qualitative aspects of our past experiences. So we can’t simply remove ‘emotion’ from a concept, or ignore the way we subjectively attribute value and significance to concepts. When we do that, we discard information. — Possibility

Yes. Concepts are the abstract ideas which originate in the mind which is 'moved' by a need to categorise and express the way things are. There is bound to be subjectivity involved in choice and usage. I am not sure this is the same as involving 'emotion' which is an intuitive feeling...but...
Perhaps it is, in the sense of 'desire' to justify our choice that we 'feel' is right...

I have read that the important concept of de can be translated as 'virtue' or 'power'.
Also, that the combination of dao with de ( dao-de) means ethics.
I look forward to further discussion and elucidation, if not enlightenment.

I suggested written music as an analogy (not a metaphor) for the TTC. Written music is an arrangement of variable sound quality into a rational structure. There is no affect in a written piece of music.

I compared this to music performance, in which one cannot clearly delineate between structure or quality (contributed to a performance by the score) and affect (contributed by either the musician in interpreting the score or the observer in interpreting the performance). — Possibility

Yes. I see the analogy for both being rational structures.
Written music is a guide as to what and how the notes are to be played.
At the highest level of performance e.g. in an orchestra, the interpretation of the score is given overall by the conductor. The quality or skill requires careful training compared to an individual who might have an innate talent - as in 'playing by ear'.

Not every musician can read a musical score; it is like a foreign language to them.
Most famously - the Beatles.
https://socurrent.com/top-5-musicians-who-couldnt-read-music/

This might be termed as 'pure' or a 'natural' excellence or 'virtuosity' - the equivalent of 'de'.
They are simply inspired to make 'noise' to express their thoughts and feelings.
There is no intermediary physical 'score' to follow, other than what is in their mind.

The members of the audience are not mere 'observers', but yes, there is an affect or a powerful effect and interaction. When we look from the performers' stage we can see this crowd of one-ness., waving arms or lights. They too can be 'conducted' either by the performer or spontaneously...

I don't know where I am going with this.
Only I suppose it is to say that I agree the TTC is a rational structure. I would add that it is objectively a normative structure that guides us to travel in a certain direction - to follow the Way.
This needs to be interpreted. This requires the mind and its powerful intellect as well as some kind of an intuitive 'feel'. This discussion, I think, includes both.

There is also descriptive imagery which is not normative - it is interpreted in a natural way by just looking and appreciating.

It is not an either/or but both.
We have the chance to choose a translation and interpret it by self or with others.
Any way we choose is 'natural'.

I have more to think about but that's all for now...
Thanks.

As I noted in a response to Possibility, it is my understanding this is a Confucian view which Lao Tzu was specifically reacting against. — T Clark

Yes. I see that the guidance given in the TTC attempts to reverse conventional views held at that time.
It seems to resist a second-order moral way in preference to a first-order 'natural' way.
Can we be sure that this is best for our selves and others?
What is 'natural' ? Is a question I raised earlier.
Is the TTC with its apparent reliance on natural intuition right for a progressive world ? Part of nature is to grow and develop...over and above some of our natural inclinations...and that requires some guidance...the TTC might be seen as just another dogmatism...

There are many 'natural' ways. Arguably, we are social animals with reason who need to establish ways of living together. This does not always come naturally. Conventions of some description are necessary.

From https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/daoism/

Laozi may have been tempted to postulate a perfect dao. It would be a dao with no social contribution.

So the Zhuangzi differs in this important attitude from the Laozi—we need not try to escape from social life and conventions. Conventions underlie the possibility of communication and are, thus, useful. This gives Zhuangzi’s Daoism less of the primitive thrust of the Daode Jing (the term wu-wei virtually disappears in the inner chapters).

The most dramatic message of the Zhuangzi is a theme that links Daoism to Zen (Chan—the distinctively Daoist influenced branch of Buddhism)—the “mysticism” of losing oneself in activity, particularly the absorption in skilled execution of a highly cultivated way . His most famous example concerns a butcher—hardly a prestige or status profession—who carves beef with the focus and absorption of a virtuoso dancer in an elegantly choreographed performance. The height of human satisfaction comes in achieving and exercising such skills with the focus and commitment that gets us “outside ourselves” and into such an intimate connection with our dao .

[ emphasis added ]

Filial piety IS the ‘natural’ or basic relationship, according to Chinese culture. Every other relationship is part of a social, moral, political or ideological construct or convention. — Possibility

Yes, in Chinese culture it is of 'supreme importance' as Derek Lin discusses at length.
Out of all the virtues, this is the first and foremost.
He asks the students to consider why this might be so. Interesting responses and good feedback.

Ch18 Lines 5 and 6. From about 36 mins in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAC5KEZY3_k

I think rejecting entire concepts, such as intellect or rationality, is as much a mistake as rejecting knowledge. Rationality can be a barrier only when it excludes affect: when we argue that knowledge and desire are mutually exclusive, or that any action we take can be considered free from affect. But rationality can be a way of structuring information in order to observe affect. One could argue that the TTC is a structure of rationality in itself. — Possibility

[my emphasis]

This makes sense to me. As far as I can tell, the TTC is as rich in concepts as it is in metaphors which try to explain them and how the practical aspects of the concepts play out.

My understanding of this doesn’t come from the TTC, but from the rest of my philosophical journey - trying to make sense of a ToE. I found that the conflicts I had been having - mainly to do with language and a qualitative-quantitative aspect dichotomy - seemed to dissolve in the structure of the TTC. — Possibility

Yes. We bring our own experiences to any text as we read and try to relate to it. To see if if has any value to us in the way we lead our lives. If it makes sense. I think that this can work both ways.
For us, as we build on a view which has worked for us and others along the way.
Against us, if we try to fit text in to what we think is right, or our own perspective. Even if we do get beyond our own cages and pick up book which at first glance doesn't hold much appeal.
How would you persuade someone to read the TTC ?
How would you describe how conflicts might 'dissolve in the structure of the TTC' ?

We can look beyond the metaphorical language and piece together the rational structure on which our qualitative experience hangs [....] For me, playing with the metaphorical language is an attempt to retain an intellectual illusion of control. The TTC lays out how you can go beyond that, regardless of your level of awareness or intellect: embody the structure of Te. — Possibility

In this discussion, we have not only had to try to understand the language of the TTC but also our own ways of explaining what the TTC means or its potential implications for guiding self, family, community, country, the world...
Metaphors are useful - up to a point. If they are used 'in an attempt to retain an intellectual illusion of control' and there is a mixing and matching then it can muddy the waters.
The TTC, as far as I recall, tries to tell us to be patient and allow the mud to settle to regain clarity
( I think V15 ).
So, yes, there is a laying out as to the 'How' - a guide. I think I have missed a lot along the away...

In the lengthy video of Ch18, Derek Lin - in the final 7 minutes or so, talking about the last line, refers to the ministers as also being 'ministers' of our self. The 3 main aspects to care for: physical, mental and spiritual. How we need to balance all three together holistically for wellbeing; to maintain some kind of order.
It gladdened my heart to hear it. It provided important positive feedback to something I said earlier re V17 and the levels. Nobody here seemed to consider this.
Perhaps lost in the muddy waters...

In a certain verse where levels or hierarchies are being described. Descending from some Good Ideal, degenerating to the Bad Non-Ideal. Or ascending...from a lower self to a higher one ? — Amity

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/519719
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/519731

Chapter 18 of the TTC - Derek Lin
For a quick paraphrase (6:42)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxmmEpWyONg

For detailed evaluation of the hidden structure. Discussion with students (32:43)
First, looking for repeating characters in same position in this short 8 line verse.
Then each line explained, along with a bit of history re Ancient Chinese poetry..
Part 1 - ( Benevolence)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaooF42YUWk

Part 2 - ( Natural Goodness) - 1:07:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAC5KEZY3_k

Overall Concept:
Life patterns
Balance
Unconventional thinking

And recap of the primary concepts:
Benevolence
Righteousness
Wisdom
Harmony

With implications and ideas related to modern life. The Situation and the Response.
Life patterns repeated throughout history, the present and futuristic visions.
Bad v good guys in film.
Balance and counter balance in humanity trying to establish equilibrium or peace.
At different connecting levels.

Tea breaks required.

Another one
'Dreams' - Fleetwood Mac // Sam Wilkes ft. POMPLAMOOSE
Wow !

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ztWQm577Q

Now here you go again, you say you want your freedom
Well, who am I to keep you down?
It's only right that you should play the way you feel it
But listen carefully to the sound of your loneliness

Like a heartbeat drives you mad
In the stillness of remembering what you had
And what you lost
And what you had
And what you lost

Oh, thunder only happens when it's raining
Players only love you when they're playing
Say, women, they will come and they will go
When the rain washes you clean, you'll know
You'll know

Now here I go again, I see the crystal visions
I keep my visions to myself
It's only me who wants to wrap around your dreams
And have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Dreams of loneliness

Like a heartbeat drives you mad
In the stillness of remembering what you had
And what you lost
And what you had
Oh, what you lost

Thunder only happens when it's raining
Players only love you when they're playing
Women, they will come and they will go
When the rain washes you clean, you'll know

Oh, thunder only happens when it's raining
Players only love you when they're playing
Say, women, they will come and they will go
When the rain washes you clean, you'll know
You'll know
You will know
Oh, you'll know

Source: Musixmatch

Songwriters: Stevie Nicks

Dreams lyrics © Welsh Witch Music

Brilliant. You can pick 'em :starstruck:
And if you can't be happy, wear a smile, even if it is a mask :mask:
Unfortunately - with covid restrictions we can only see smiling eyes, if we are lucky.

Cause when you worry your face will frown
And that will bring everybody down — Olivier5

Not to mention you'll get a deep track line in the middle of your forehead :angry:

Wonderful find.
And then this came along - their cover of Supertramp's 'The Logical Song'.
Love it :cool:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U8TYyG6QPQE

When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful
A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical
And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily
Oh joyfully, playfully watching me
But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible
Logical, oh responsible, practical
And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable
Oh clinical, oh intellectual, cynical

There are times when all the world's asleep
The questions run too deep
For such a simple man
Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned
I know it sounds absurd
Please tell me who I am

I said, watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical
Liberal, oh fanatical, criminal
Won't you sign up your name, we'd like to feel you're acceptable
Respectable, oh presentable,…

Source: LyricFind

Libravox, a wonderful free audio book site, has the Tao Te Ching in English. I don't know if it has it in Chinese. — T Clark

I had forgotten about Librivox - yes, it helped me when I was learning Italian :cool:
https://librivox.org/

The translation I found was that of Legge. I don't care for it much.
Also noted there is a German translation.
Couldn't find a Chinese version. However, there are lists of tons of Chinese stories, books within which the TTC might be hidden...

I think with some of our fixation on the meaning of words we are taken away from this element.
We might be in danger of losing our way, if we cannot also take time to appreciate the sounds.
— Amity

I don't disagree with you, but I just don't know what to do about it. — T Clark

We can consider whether it matters or if something needs to be done at all.
We can consider what is it we are fixed on and why.
We can look to the TTC itself, if we can get past the blockage.

I think you answered this yourself earlier.
Fixation can mean an act of concentrating directly on something with the eyes.
Didn't you talk of using peripheral vision ?
Couldn't this also include - lifting eyes from textual analysis simply to appreciate the sound and rhythm.
Another way of looking...
Someone suggested that we can read it aloud. Actively listen to our own voice - externally rather than the internal chatter...

Another thing I thought of.
About a ladder as it happens.
I have a fear of heights, the manmade type, especially unstable ladders.
So, why was it I found myself as an inebriated youth climbing up a long ladder to the top of a water tower. Madness. The aim was not a good one. To see the view ? No. Just because my friends were doing it.

I got stuck half way up, paralysed with fear.
I couldn't go up or down.
What was required - help from others both above and below me. Listening to them and taking a few deep breaths. Step by step descending with utmost care and attention.

Does this apply to the text? Is our aim understanding or what ?

I guess the question becomes: why are we exploring an interpretation of this piece of music? Is it to forge our own personal performance of it, our own interpretation among the many, or is it to help others connect with the truth of the composition, with what the score was reaching towards? — Possibility

Is there a fear that if we don't understand one bit perfectly, then we stay there. Progress halted.
If your aim is to make a collage of all different interpretations or bits of texts - then perhaps there can be something of an obsessive desire involved...
This can sometimes be seen as un-natural. But hang on, if it is natural to you then why not ?
Generating a novel way of looking by combining ideas, isn't that the sign of genius ? :nerd:
Ascending...step by step...
Sometimes it means less attention paid to other aspects. Again, it's all about balance.

I find it’s like a written piece of music. The notes are presented in a formal structure, and each note, bar, melody and movement has a certain quality that is laid out for the musician in the text.

I guess this happens with the most of the art that are so complex and abstract. When a piece of work can be interpreted furthermore than the original structure tend to pass a lot of generations or centuries because it can be interpreted depending in the era and social circumstances.
Nevertheless, we also have to keep in mind the original one. — javi2541997

I agree the original is important to keep in mind. However, I think the original TTC is a problematic concept. Originally music was played naturally by ear. I imagine the voice would be the first instrument.
To sing, to express joy or emotion...to send a message of love ?

The notation systems were added later as guides with notes as reminders - not only what note is to be played but how e.g. andante, accelerando and for how long, when to rest.
Also the volume - pianissimo ( very soft, gentle), fortissimo ( very strong, loud). Each instrument follows the score but has its own part to play in an orchestra. Each singer in a choir....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_musical_terms_used_in_English

To return to the text and the modern ways of presentation and interpretation.
Clearly there are many; written translations, oral and aural.
I picked out 3 different ways to listen to the TTC on YouTube. The mandarin lively cartoon style didn't do much for me but @javi2541997 gave it a :up:
Sometimes the personal appreciation can depend on the mood and energy of the listener - if we need calm or if we want stimulation.
The message stays the same, only we hear it differently.

Song writers can sing their own or others cover the original.
To compare and contrast performance is fascinating. From the Deep Songs thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/518043

The original can be more 'real' or natural. However, it can be enhanced or otherwise - depending.
The important point here is that the message is accessible to a whole lot more people than the original.

The poems or verses of the TTC are not the songs as sung by one author. It would appear that they are a collection developed over a period of time by different poets.
As with any other ancient texts, what we have at best is the oldest manuscripts that have been found.
There may have been at that time other versions.

For me, this means finding the best that fits my ears. Even if not the 'authentic' original whatever that might be...
I want to hear the sounds as well as read the words. I can also learn to appreciate those I am not currently attuned to.
There is a wisdom within the TTC but written and read by humans it will not be perfect understanding.

Interesting though to think of the musical term 'Da Capo' which means to return to the beginning.
From the beginning, from the head...
Just as in some of the verses, there is a return from the end lines to the beginning...
Also, the repeated phrases - just as in music, the motifs play the dominant or recurring idea.