...

Thanks - my google translate problem now fixed.

You are welcome :smile:
But I now have a problem.
When I went to Google Translate - everything but everything is written in Chinese characters :roll:
No idea how to change this :brow:
Help ?!

Audio versions of the TTC on YouTube

English:
Tao Te Ching - Read by Wayne Dyer with Music & Nature Sounds (Binaural Beats) 1hr 5 mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_Voet2fnc
I like it. Gentle sounds. But might get irritating...
From Comment below the video:
You don't need to start with the beginning. You can literally play this from any point in the video and still gain something. I have a special liking for the second half which covers leadership and governance.

I claim no rights to the content in this audio reading. This video is not being monetized. It is a gift to you. I put this together only because I found NO OTHER source on YouTube that has put this Wayne Dyer reading to Binaural Beats and nature sounds, and I felt like we really needed this version. Listen before bed. Listen in the morning. Listen when you just need to slow down and gather your thoughts before making an important decision.

Mandarin:
Tao Te Ching - Full Edition with Cartoon 中国国学-老子Laozi 道德经-动漫版全 dào dé jīnɡ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSk8yZaZRaA

This is a bit...er...lively and I have no idea where the actual TTC starts and ends. 1hr 52 mins.
Not feeling it.

Can't find what I want :sad:
A meditative and gentle Chinese version of the TTC with subtitles. To drift along with...

One with no music. No distraction.
Tao Te Ching or The Book Of The Way by Lao Tzu Translation by S. Mitchell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4

Has anyone listened to the TTC - bought an audio book - any recommendations ?
Help ?!

I copied and pasted. I think the search engine corrected the spelling. Clever :nerd:

I googled. First thing that came up was from wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract

I refer the first paragraph, when the parentheses ends. — javi2541997

Thanks :up:
I will try to resist the temptation to go on an Easter egg hunt. That's over :smile:

somehow It passes to my mind the act of “climbing” — javi2541997

Yes. I edited my post to include that upward path. Underlined.

Descending from some Good Ideal, degenerating to the Bad Non-Ideal. Or ascending...from a lower self to a higher one ? — Amity

Ladder could be more difficult because steps could mean one phrase or verse are above or higher to another but I do not see it as that way. — javi2541997

Understood.
This brings in the issue of connectedness.

Tim Chilcott talks about it in his Introduction and how he gets over the problems created by disconnection in the text.
http://www.tclt.org.uk/laozi/Daode_Jing_2011.pdf

I scribbled some notes or quotes:
So, sometimes there are small jumps between different ideas but other times there are bigger illogical steps. He chooses to avoid the false connections made by other translators when they introduce the joining words, like 'hence' or 'and so'.
He presents the separate sayings as separate. He prefers real incongruity to contrived cohesiveness.

I like this kind of KISS - keeping it short and simple :kiss:

Here is when Lao explained that TTC, as water, flows over us during our lives. I guess this is why cascade metaphor is more accurate. — javi2541997

Yes, I can see it as more in keeping with the natural flow.
However, I think the ladder can be useful too.
In a certain verse where levels or hierarchies are being described. Descending from some Good Ideal, degenerating to the Bad Non-Ideal. Or ascending...from a lower self to a higher one ?

I was thinking not only of the material rungs but also the spaces between the rungs.
The rungs need the flow of space as well as the strength of the joints.
If the rungs are wide enough, they can hold more than one aspect of a type.
We are multifaceted beings - connected in space -
Oh, I'm getting carried away...

The phrase literally says: I have finished. Perhaps, you will find my discourse so rough, not subtle neither wisely.

This phrase randomly appears in my version but surprisingly I do not see it along internet so I don’t know if it is true at all... — javi2541997

How interesting is that !
Can you copy the whole verse out to show where it appears in context ?

[Edit re ladder metaphor: https://theladderofeducation.weebly.com/the-ladder-metaphor.html ]

Yes. Perhaps we should join hands and sing the verses. Connecting :sparkle:
Seriously, thanks for all your input, even if sometimes I struggle, it is worth the effort.

Verse LXXXI (last one) — javi2541997

So, you couldn't wait, huh ?

the Tao says: Those who are good do not debate Those who debate are not good. Those who know are not broad of knowledge Those who are broad of knowledge do not know — javi2541997

As a final conclusion, it would seem to highlight something already touched on - with @Valentinus - the view by some that the there is no such thing as philosophical Daoism.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/517338
I think a lot hinges on how 'philosophy' is defined. Some might just see it as a set of arguments going nowhere in particular with opponents finally agreeing to disagree. Others see it as a way of life.

For example, what are your thoughts on the recent debate regarding which metaphor is more useful or helpful - the ladder or the cascade ?
Is that why you picked out the final verse ?

Some of the commentaries use the repetitive structure as evidence that the text comes from an oral tradition, which is consistent with what you've said. I've also read that, in the original, the verses are rhymed. — T Clark

I've been thinking more about this ( go figure !)...
The repetitive rhyming mixed with non-rhyming aspects and how the text in its oral tradition would have had more of a 'musicality' to it. In reading the text as presented, there is something lost - the sound of the stories and, perhaps, the teaching.

Typically, my ears are attuned to Western music and language. I have only recently become aware of the sounds of Chinese words. This by listening to the Derek Lin YouTube sessions. Even when he was describing the difference between thirty ( the spokes of the wheel ) and thirteen - you could hear the different tones. The rise and the fall.

Also, there is mention of this in Tim Chilcott's Introduction - the stylistic patterns.
His is a parallel text translation of the TTC.
He says that this is not difficult to translate - what is impossible to reproduce is the sound of the Chinese rhymes. He tries to keep this element by using 'persuasive rhythms and a sense of cadence often based on iambic metre'.
He continues with the importance of keeping the quality of the natural, unforced voice. This brings home the point that 'the text is as much to be spoken aloud as read silently'. ( pp. x -xi )
http://www.tclt.org.uk/laozi/Daode_Jing_2011.pdf

I think with some of our fixation on the meaning of words we are taken away from this element.
We might be in danger of losing our way, if we cannot also take time to appreciate the sounds.

:cool:
now time for :yawn:

Everyting is irie mon :cool:

( hope I got the accent right :smile: )

Missed this. Will listen to the others later but your link to Gordon Lightfoot...well...I'll play it again..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=JKYRjNAakVc
:cool:

I've also read that, in the original, the verses are rhymed. — T Clark

Now that I would love to hear :cool:
Perhaps if we enter the Chinese characters into Google Translate and click on audio ?! :nerd:

I'm feeling mentally as well as existentially dispossessed here in Atlanta. Everyday feels like an out-of-body experience of longing to be on the other side of the Cascades starting over (again) — 180 Proof

I - I'm a gonna take
a just-a one step more
'Cause I feel like bombin' a church -

I have been watching what has been going with horror but actually to experience it...that is something else altogether. I hope you manage to relocate as soon as you can. It sounds like a place where you can breathe, again...
Bob Marley - good choice.
More upbeat:

'Three Little Birds'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LanCLS_hIo4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNBCVM4KbUM

'Is this Love'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69RdQFDuYPI

I wanna love you
And treat you right
I wanna love you
Every day and every night

We'll be together
With a roof right over our heads
We'll share the shelter
Of my single bed
We'll share the same room, yeah
For Jah provide the bread

Is this love, is this love, is this love
Is this love that I'm feelin'?
Is this love, is this love, is this love
Is this love that I'm feelin'?

I wanna know, wanna know, wanna know now
I got to know, got to know, got to know now
I-I-I-I-I, I'm willing and able
So I throw my cards on your table

I wanna love you
I wanna love and treat
Love and treat you right
I wanna love you
Every day and every night

We'll be together, yeah
With a roof right over our heads
We'll share the shelter, yeah, oh, yeah
Of my single bed
We'll share the same room, yeah
For Jah provide the bread

Is this love, is this love, is this love
Is this love that I'm feelin'?
Is this love, is this love, is this love
Is this love that I'm feelin'? Whoa

Oh, yes, I know, yes, I know, yes, I know now
Oh, yes, I know, yes, I know, yes, I know now

I-I-I-I-I, I'm willing and able
So I throw my cards on your table
See, I wanna love you
I wanna love and treat ya
Love and treat ya right

I wanna love you
Every day and every night
We'll be together
With a roof right over our heads
We'll share the shelter
Of my single bed
We'll share the same room, yeah
Jah provide the bread
We'll share the shelter...

Songwriters: Marley Bob
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

OK, I don't see that in the YouTube description of Ch11 as linked.

I am not sure that from the beginning of the book, the TCC itself right through to the very end is a 'cascade' as in a tumbling down or a descent...
Perhaps it is. I will have to wait and see.

I did take note that in Ch17 that the last line returns full circle to the first.

See here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/519005

Again, not sure that this happens in all Chapters.
Interesting to keep in mind...as we go...

The move was planned for last year but the pandemic had other plans. — 180 Proof

:sad:
There has to be a song there somewhere...

He literally understands TTC as a cascade. from the first verse to the last one. — javi2541997

Sorry, I didn't catch that. Where did you find this ?

What I want to do from now is read a verse of TTC, interprete it in my mind and then compare it with Derek Lin's interpretation. I think it could be a good idea because sometimes I feel so lost from the real nature about TTC. — javi2541997

I think that is the best way to go about this.
First, read and think for yourself before looking to others. How wise are you ?!
I don't always do that. I tend to overload then need a rest before I can appreciate...
I doubt I will ever change this behaviour pattern...even after reading the TTC :cry:

One of the beautiful things is how we are sharing different links and information. You are providing to me more information than my university back in the day — javi2541997

I am beginning to think that we are practising the Dao, don't you ? :scream:
The internet connects us all in good ways, if we know where to look and evaluate the content before deciding to share.
Universities are wonderful places but need to work within their own limits, restrictions.
The best lecturers inspire and encourage further reading. Not always possible or desirable within a course or module. If you want to get high marks...you gotta stick with the programme.

Follow up to:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/518920

Have just finished watching most of Derek Lin's YouTube lecture on Ch17:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQSWFy4nVE0

It lasts about 1hr18mins.
There is an excellent paraphrase of the paraphrase at c. 1hr 11 mins.
Breaking down the lines and, by example, encouraging us to put it into our own words.

Leading without leading.
With vision and humility to foster harmony for all, the very opposite of ego-driven selfishness.

His written translation, explanation and notes from:
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/DerekLin.html#Kap17

The highest rulers, people do not know they have them
The next level, people love them and praise them
The next level, people fear them
The next level, people despise them

The rulers' trust is insufficient, have no trust in them

Proceeding calmly, valuing their words
Task accomplished, matter settled
The people all say, "We did it naturally"

I inserted spaces where he breaks it down in to 3 segments. The first part is the four levels, descending and degenerating. The final 3 lines considers the careful, calm Dao way to accomplish a mission with seamless action. This compares to the careless, stressful way of a leader who only thinks of himself who trusts nobody and nobody trusts him.

In the video, he talks of how the last line takes us back full circle to the first.
Indeed, if memory serves, I think he says that this is a feature of all the verses.

From his Notes:

Do not think of ruling in the literal way that only applies to governance of a nation. Look at your own life and note all the settings and circumstances where leadership plays a role. Most of us will, at some point, start our own families, and we may be called upon to assume the responsibility of leadership in social settings, community activities, or the workplace.
The Tao of leadership remains constant in any context. Whether you find yourself having to deal with your children, neighbors or coworkers, you'll find the distinctions in this chapter a useful guide.

Thank you for the feedback. This motivates me to keep going sharing thoughts about TTC in English with you. :100: :up: — javi2541997

Your timely and good quality feedback thrills my neurotransmitters to bits :starstruck:
Seriously, in this type of discussion where we are all at different levels of understanding, feedback is so important. If done carefully, it works to keep me informed and motivated too. Gracias :up:

He literally understands TTC as a cascade. from the first verse to the last one. — javi2541997

I didn't realise that at all ! Will have to listen...
I thought that, given there are two parts, it would have a break in flow...
A bit of a shame, then, that we have churned up the waters a bit, not following all the verses in sequence. Then again...such is life :wink:

I will keep it in mind more closely. — javi2541997

As will I.
@Possibility already talked about the 'cascading' aspect within a verse.

Substance (having) is positive. Emptiness (not having) is negative. But you need both as a equilibrium/balance.

Also, probably is off topic but he remembered that a wheel is related as birth/rebirth inside Buddhism. — javi2541997

Yes, again we hear about balance.
I didn't even think of the wheel as in the birth/rebirth cycle...
The circle of life. Nature. Not off topic.

Thanks so much for quick listening and responding. Your English is excellent if you can understand that so well :100: :smile:

born & raise in NYC, I've lived in Atlanta on & off over nine years ... though for not much longer, I hope, coronavirus permitting.) — 180 Proof

Returning to roots? Further away? Foreign parts ?

The Sun
'Sunshine on My Shoulders' - John Denver ( Wildlife Concert)
'Sunshine almost always makes me smile...'
And that sax :cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5sbTHMP0Ig
Lyrics and background:
https://genius.com/John-denver-sunshine-on-my-shoulders-lyrics

OMG, Youtube just kept on playing and I kept on listening and remembering:
'Annie's Song'...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyJRsp5t9mA

Lyrics

You fill up my senses
Like a night in a forest
Like the mountains in springtime
Like a walk in the rain
Like a storm in the desert
Like a sleepy blue ocean
You fill up my senses
Come fill me again

Come let me love you
Let me give my life to you
Let me drown in your laughter
Let me die in your arms
Let me lay down beside you
Let me always be with you
Come let me love you
Come love me again

Let me give my life to you
Come let me love you
Come love me again

You fill up my senses
Like a night in a forest
Like the mountains in springtime
Like a walk in the rain
Like a storm in the desert
Like a sleepy blue ocean
You fill up my senses
Come fill me again

Songwriters: Denver John, Deutschendorf Jr Henry John
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

Thanks for keep sharing this information with me. So much appreciated. I going to give a look — javi2541997

I hope it is helpful. I've only just found it so haven't listened to it all, yet...
It would be good to hear your thoughts :smile:

Chapter 17
Ivanhoe trans. with notes, from:
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/Daodejing-Ivanhoe.pdf

The greatest of rulers is but a shadowy presence;
Next is the ruler who is loved and praised;
Next is the one who is feared;
Next is the one who is reviled.
Those lacking in trust are not trusted.(36)
But [the greatest rulers] are cautious and honor words.(37)
When their task is done and work complete,(38)
Their people all say, "This is just how we are."( 39)

Notes:
36 This line appears again in Ch 23. I interpret it as an expression of the Daodejing's characteristic view on de, 'Virtue'. For a discussion of 'Virtue'...and how it differs from related Confucian concepts of 'Virtue' or 'moral charisma' see my 'The Concept of de ('Virtue') in the Laozi'...( 1998), pp 239-57. *
For other passages concerning the concept of trust, see Ch 49 and 63.

37 Sages are reluctant and slow to speak, but their words are worthy of complete trust.

38 Cf. Ch 2,9,34 and 77.
39 Literally, "We are this way ziran". See ziran under Important Terms. Other exs: Ch 23,25,51 and 64.


* free download of Ivanhoe's The Concept of de ("Virtue") in the Laozi:
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/ivanhoe.pdf

Chapter 11 as translated and explained by Derek Lin.
Slides showing repeated Chinese characters. Also, the overall idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOAU7IlVF-I&t=46s

You can click on Derek Lin's Youtube lectures of some verses, here:

https://taoism.net/tao/tao-te-ching-lectures/

So, talking about translations...
And I was looking at the repeated patterns, noting Ivanhoe referred to Ch 51, Part 2 of the TTC.
Came across this:

'Tao Talks' by Derek Lin
Useful slides.
Here's the Tao Te Ching 32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69PbMr3BVu0

You're welcome. Thanks for your inspiration :smile:

I liked these two verses compared. It is so interesting what you are sharing in your debate. I am reading it from the shadows :wink: — javi2541997

Lao Tzu repeats himself a lot, but each iteration is a bit different. I really like looking at that too. — T Clark

Yes, I too think it important to recognise the repeated themes throughout the TTC.
This serves as a teaching or learning aid - to ram the message home, if you like.

From https://principlesoflearning.wordpress.com/dissertation/chapter-4-results/themes-identified/repetition/
Repetition

This is perhaps the most intuitive principle of learning, traceable to ancient Egyptian and Chinese education, with records dating back to approximately 4,400 and 3,000 B.C., respectively (Aspinwall, 1912, pp. 1, 3). In ancient Greece, Aristotle commented on the role of repetition in learning by saying “it is frequent repetition that produces a natural tendency” (Ross & Aristotle, 1906, p. 113)

There are short declarative phrases which help you remember. Also good if you want a quick-fix inspirational quote, I suppose. :sparkle:
There are intentional contradictions which make you ask 'you what?' :chin:
Our minds are activated in an effort to reconcile the paradoxes, see earlier discussion with @TheMadFool (p14)

I returned to Ch10 - Ivanhoe translation and his notes showing where lines are repeated.

Embracing your soul and holding on to the One, can you keep them from departing ? (note23)
Concentrating your qui ''vital energies'' (24) and attaining the utmost suppleness, can you be a child?
Cleaning and purifying your enigmatic mirror, can you erase every flaw?
Caring for the people and ordering the state, can you eliminate all knowledge?
When the portal of Heaven opens and closes, can you play the part of the feminine?
Comprehending all within the four directions, can you reside in nonaction?
To produce them!
To nurture them!
To produce without possessing; (25)
To act with no expectation of reward; (26)
To lead without lording over;
Such is Enigmatic Virtue! (27)

Notes:
23 For other examples of 'the One' see Ch 22,39 and 42
24 See qi under Important Terms
25 This line also appears in Ch 2 and 51
26 This line also appears in Ch 2, 51, and 77.
27 Chapter 51 concludes with the same 4 lines. For another passage concerning xuande 'Enigmatic Virtue' see chapter 65.

I don't think I gave this verse enough attention.
What strikes me now is the line:
'When the portal of Heaven opens and closes, can you play the part of the feminine ?'
I can't recall any discussion about 'the feminine'...
Is it about the caring aspect of humans, the creative part, the concept of Ying and Yang ?

Many thanks to both. Let's see if I can do it...

That's a very nice multi-part OP! I just finished reading the whole thing. I had copy-pasted all parts in a unique documents and saved it as a pdf in order to be able to highlight and annotate. — Pierre-Normand

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/516439

Yay :cool:

Q: How do you create a link to a particular comment in another thread ?
A: Dunno :chin:
Help ?!

I've only ever listened to Ray Charles' version. — 180 Proof

Yeah, that's not bad either :wink:
So many cover versions of this, but when I found Brook Benton's I thought it sounded 'real'.
A bit about the songwriter, Tony Joe White:

When I got out of high school I went to Marietta, Georgia, I had a sister living there. I went down there to get a job and I was playing guitar too at the house and stuff. I drove a dump truck for the highway department and when it would rain you didn't have to go to work. You could stay home and play your guitar and hangout all night. So those thoughts came back to me when I moved on to Texas about three months later. I heard "Ode to Billie Joe" on the radio and I thought, man, how real, because I am Billie Joe, I know that life. I've been in the cotton fields.

So I thought if I ever tried to write, I'm going to write about something I know about. At that time I was doing a lot of Elvis and John Lee Hooker onstage with my drummer. No original songs and I hadn't really thought about it. But after I heard Bobbie Gentry I sat down and thought ...

well I know about Polk because I had ate a bunch of it and I knew about rainy nights because I spent a lot of rainy nights in Marietta, Georgia. So I was real lucky with my first tries to write something that was not only real and hit pretty close to the bone, but lasted that long. So it was kind of a guide for me then on through life to always try to write what I know about.[2] — wiki

[emphases added]

Hadn't a clue what 'Polk' was - but now I do.
Turns out I knew the song but Elvis was...erm... distracting so the lyrics went over my head :scream:
'Polk Salad Annie' - written by Tony Joe White, performed by Elvis (live)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4csFnpZXek

Compare songwriter's version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyXHxh3Sye0

And performing his own 'Rainy Night In Georgia' with intro, mentioning Brook Benton.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MunWJu1f1-8
Now this...is real...from the heart... with guitar and harmonica...
:sparkle:

'Rainy Night in Georgia' - Brook Benton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDRbF80NKDU

Hoverin' by my suitcase
Tryin' to find a warm place
To spend the night
Heavy rain fallin'
Seems I hear your voice callin'
It's all right

A rainy night in Georgia
A rainy night in Georgia
Lord, I believe it's rainin' all over the world
I feel like it's rainin' all over the world

Neon signs a-flashin'
Taxicabs and buses
Passin' through the night
A distant moanin' of a train
Seems to play a sad refrain to the night

A rainy night in Georgia
Such a rainy night in Georgia
Lord I believe it's rainin' all over the world
I feel like it's rainin' all over the world

How many times I wondered
It still comes out the same
No matter how you look at it or think of it
Well it's life, and you just got to play the game

I find me a place in a boxcar
So I take my guitar
To pass some time
Late at night when it's hard to rest
I hold your picture to my chest
And I feel fine, I

But it's a rainy night in Georgia
Baby, it's a rainy night in Georgia
I feel it's rainin' all over the world
Kinda lonely there and it's rainin' all over the world

Oh have you ever been lonely people
And you feel that it was raining all over this man's world
You talkin' 'bout rainin',rainnin', rainin', rainin', rainin'
A-rainin', a-rainin', rainin' over the world
I said now rainin',rainnin', rainin', rainin', rainin'

Songwriters: White Tony Joe
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

'Non e' detto' - Laura Paucini

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Ec26-h0Tk

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/non-%C3%A8-detto-not-necessarily.html

because it's written in Italian. — Olivier5

Ah, naturalmente - the language of music; the words sing :cool: