• Willpower - is it an energy thing?


    Thank you,and anyone else I might have missed, for responses. I hope to reply later.
    Next year perhaps :)
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?
    I fear we are in danger of having two different conversations here. I'm trying to explain to you Plato's model of the tripartite soul.Tzeentch

    Yes. There might be a case for another thread related specifically to Plato.

    However, I am not concerned about following different strands of conversation. I am enjoying hearing about others' perspectives, views and reasons. It is refreshing and challenging.
    And for a well- rounded discussion, including psychology, it is not necessary to study the Republic before 'moving on'.There is more than one approach.

    What I am not trying to do is present you with an accurate explanation of depression!Tzeentch

    I wouldn't expect that of anyone. However, I think that in any discussion of ' Willpower - is it an energy thing ?', an increased understanding of depression is both pertinent and useful.
    I have simply challenged your understanding of it.
    Your response avoids my question about your thoughts on any spiritual depression - potential causes and cures. Instead you appeal to Plato...
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?
    can we not say that depression is the presence of profound sadness, or the absence of happiness, therefore the natural domain of spirit?Tzeentch

    You can say that but I wouldn't. It is a generalisation and simplification.

    Depression is more complex than that, as I think you probably know if you have read anything about it. Or even experienced it.
    Varying degrees and causes require different strategies for coping or treatment.

    Cognitive symptoms are perhaps less well known than those of low mood, fatigue and loss of interest.
    For example, there are negative thought patterns. And various other cognitive distortions.
    This is the province of reasoning. And can be alleviated by cognitive behavioural therapy ( CBT ) amongst other treatments.

    Physical symptoms include a slowing down of movement and speech. And so on.

    I am not sure what you are trying to imply by bringing in aspects of the Good, or even deception by spirit.
    I am frankly uneasy with your understanding of depression. There seems to be a moral element creeping in. For example - if you are thinking of a spiritual depression, what do you consider would be the causes and cures ?
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?
    I do believe ἐγκράτεια and ἀκρασία are byproducts of Fate. You may fight to preserve the one over the other for a while, and you may make it to the end! But, depending on where you live, the forces around you, etc etc etc......it seems more and more a crap shoot.Not

    What do you mean by 'Fate' ?
    One dictionary meaning is: Fate is a power that some people believe controls and decides everything that happens, in a way that cannot be prevented or changed. 

    Do you believe that whether or not you have willpower or self- control is predetermined and cannot be changed by your own action ?
    That sounds like a passive acceptance and an excuse not to try and improve your current situation.
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?
    I Ihink that what we perceive as someone being 'driven towards something that is bad for him', like drinking, is someone who in that moment believes (perhaps wrongly) that drinking is good for him. Such judgements, which reason knows to be wrong, may be perceived as right by the desire or spirit. In your example, Sam is depressed. Such a state of mind can only be ruled by spirit (emotion), and it is in all likelihood his spirit that is convincing him to drink. Reason is not in control, thus Sam is driven towards things that are bad for him, though his spirit is telling him otherwise.Tzeentch

    I thought I would tackle part of your substantial post.

    [ A wise, empathic person once advised me when I bemoaned the fact that there was too much to take in when reading Plato.
    '... it is a mistake to take in nothing because you will never be able to take in everything.' ]

    So even if we feel overwhelmed at the enormity of any project, perhaps lacking in energy/motivation or willpower, we can take one step at a time.

    First - I don't agree that a depressed state of mind can 'only be ruled by spirit (emotion)'.

    Why do you think that?
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?
    Willpower is needed to cross a hurdle. I mean a negative experience may required to be digested before getting to your happy zone.

    So, I see nothing great in willpower and those who have it. It's just one of those mind hacks people write books about. They sell well. I'm at a loss why.
    TheMadFool

    If you think that willpower is needed to overcome any obstacle in the path to achieving some goal, then it seems a contradiction for you to 'see nothing great' in it. Can you explain further ?

    Why would you be puzzled if people look to outside resources to help overcome any difficulties or problems in their lives ?
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?


    There is a lot to digest in your last post.
    I will have a look at Pierre Crimes.
    Will respond when I can...thanks.
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?
    Given Socrates's premises, though, it's hard to argue against him. That is, most arguments with Socrates simply fail to correctly engage with his thinking.tim wood

    What are Socrates's premises on the subject of willpower ?
    Can you tell me which arguments with Socrates you are talking about ?
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?
    The ego here is used in the psychological sense.
    — Amity

    Ego depletion doesn't really require the Freudian notion of the ego to get going. As a phenomenon, all it requires is that people exhibit less self control when they're in states of fatigue, especially when that fatigue is induced by concentration or tasks which otherwise require self control.

    I think it's a reasonable idea that's fraught with problems when trying to experimentally verify it.
    13 hours ago
    fdrake

    I think we are in agreement. The psychological concept is fraught with problems and is currently being debunked. I wonder at it taking so long...

    It is clear to most people that conscious decision-making and behaviour can be affected by various factors, tiredness being one of them. Drinking a glass of lemonade ( as per experiment) might give a quick boost to the system but what has this to do with self-control or even willpower.

    I don't see willpower as being a finite or quantifiable resource. We might compare people who we think have more or less self control than others but that can be variable and context dependent.

    I found this article useful re the concept of willpower. There is an argument for getting rid of it.

    http://m.nautil.us/issue/45/power/against-willpower
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?
    Ego depletion, useful idea.fdrake

    Yes well I suppose all ideas are useful in some respect in a philosophy discussion.
    What do you think of the idea of 'ego depletion ?

    From your linked wiki article:
    'Ego depletion refers to the idea that self-control or willpower draws upon a limited pool of mental resources that can be used up.[1] When the energy for mental activity is low, self-control is typically impaired, which would be considered a state of ego depletion.'

    The ego here is used in the psychological sense.

    Again using wiki:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego
    ' The id, ego, and super-ego are three distinct, yet interacting agents in the psychic apparatus defined in Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche.

    The three parts are the theoretical constructs in terms of whose activity and interaction our mental life is described. According to this Freudian model of the psyche, the id is the set of uncoordinated instinctual trends; the super-ego plays the critical and moralizing role; and the ego is the organized, realistic part that mediates between the desires of the id and the super-ego.'

    Interesting to consider. If there is a limited supply of mental energy apparently resulting in impaired self control which is then termed a state of ego depletion...then does this also apply to the id or superego ?
    Id depletion - now there's a thought...

    I don't even know how such theoretical constructs can even be measured....far less fill up the tank ?
    The id would correspond I suppose to following our passions without rhyme or reason. Perhaps the lack of willpower...?
    The ego our higher self - the reasoning part. This is the right and rational thing to do.
    The superego - our conscience. The judgmental. Evaluative judgment ?
    So all 3 parts will be continuously interacting. No wonder we get tired...
    Going round in virtuous or vicious circles...
  • Willpower - is it an energy thing?
    my understanding Plato claims "all men desire the Good", however they may be wrong in regard to what is Good. This also holds close relation to the what part of our being rules the others (reason, desire and spirit), which may cause us to develop a wrong understanding of what is GoodTzeentch

    Thanks for this and your practical elaboration. Real life examples help.

    [ An aside: As someone who has started but not finished Plato's Republic, I understand that there are different translations and interpretations of his work.
    May I ask if you have a favourite translator and have you read any of the commentaries ? ]

    I have to say I was surprised to read that Socrates, in the play, denies the existence of weakness of will.
    I will have to read Protagorus to examine the context.
    However, from this SEP article:
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/weakness-will/

    '''No one,” he declared, “who either knows or believes that there is another possible course of action, better than the one he is following, will ever continue on his present course” (Protagoras 358b-c). And philosophers have been wrestling with the issue ever since. It is not surprising that weakness of will has such a long and distinguished pedigree as a topic of philosophical discussion: it is both an intrinsically interesting phenomenon and a topic rich in implications for our broader theories of action, practical reasoning, rationality, evaluative judgment, and the interrelations among these.

    My own feeling is that I would love for akrasia not to exist because then who could then judge another for it ! Perhaps they would just call it by another name. Stupidity ? Irrational ?
    Here's another view from the SEP article:

    'Michael Bratman, for instance, introduces us to Sam, who, in a depressed state, is deep into a bottle of wine, despite his acknowledged need for an early wake-up and a clear head tomorrow. Sam's friend, stopping by, says:

    “Look here. Your reasons for abstaining seem clearly stronger than your reasons for drinking. So how can you have thought that it would be best to drink?” To which Sam replies: “I don't think it would be best to drink. Do you think I'm stupid enough to think that, given how strong my reasons for abstaining are? I think it would be best to abstain. Still, I'm drinking.” (1979, p. 156)'
  • Music as a Form of Communication?
    A military march might not fly at a peace conference.Bitter Crank

    Perhaps as a piece showing the powerful effect of music on humans. To engage and stir the relevant emotions - to effect or be affected by war and death.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_(music)

    How about a military march (parade) being music-bombed by John Lennon.
    The potent mix of music and philosophical lyrics of 'Imagine'.
    Together with images displayed on a large popup screen...

    Perhaps music is even more important than language in helping people from different cultures to connect with and understand one another.Wallows

    Yes. But together you can do magic, baby !
  • New Year's Resolutions
    will continue on in college taking three classes this Spring semester after taking my first class back this Fall after a 21yr break to be at home and raise the kids.
    Victimology/Crisis Management, Bio and Abnormal Psychology. Three classes left on my A.A. degree and two years on my Bachelor's.
    Look out world! I am rested, knowledge hungry and ready to go!!! :strong:
    ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Just read this. Your life is full to the brim already. What's an A.A. degree ?
    And where do you get your energy ? Raw meat ? Nuts ?
  • New Year's Resolutions
    Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!ArguingWAristotleTiff

    You're welcome :halo:
    Thanks. This place is mad :starstruck:
  • Calling a machine "intelligent" is pure anthropomorphism. Why was this term chosen?
    It was humankind’s first glimpse of an awesome new kind of intelligence …Fooloso4

    But perhaps not the first glimpse by a computer who would see it as simple natural evolution ?
    And yes that's anthropomorphic. What else would it be, coming from a human...?
    Imagine we input the philosophical game of theories and definitions of intelligence, what neologism would the computer churn out describing this 'awesome new kind' ?

    I do wonder about the poetic description of chess as having some kind of 'truth'...
    Thought provoking article, thanks.
  • The voice in your head
    the self seems to be a unitary entity. When someone speaks about oneself, it's usually in the singular and not plural in ordinary language. So, I thought that talking about having 'multiple selves' as a performative contradiction if you assume this unitary stipulated definition of the self.Wallows

    Yes. We talk about ourselves as a singular entity. I hear you.
    But who are 'you'?
    Context matters, doesn't it ?

    The concept of 'self' provides for endless speculation. How many theories and definitions exist in philosophy, psychology, science, neurology...?

    When I think of a philosophical self, my mind comes up with a few memories of previous learning.
    Quotes jump out at me.
    Know Thyself.
    I yam what I yam.

    Also, thoughts of a higher and lower self. Related to mastering one's base desires.
    Who talked of this ? I can't remember but a previous self would.

    Fascinating.
  • The voice in your head
    What do you mean by a 'performative contradiction ?
  • The voice in your head
    there's some sort of duality here.Wallows

    I think you answered your own question.

    There is more than one self.
    Isn't there ?
  • The voice in your head
    Feeling a little Zen'ish.
    If the voice in your head is you, then who is the one listening to it?
    Wallows

    Who is this 'little Zen' ? And are you still wallowing in your bed?
    Context matters.
    Tell me more about 'the voice in your head'?
  • New Year's Resolutions
    I'm going to [...] discourage people.Hanover

    Ah, that's better. :cool:
  • New Year's Resolutions

    Excellent resolution. But please don't just 'try' to discourage me, I need some positive action here.

    My New Year's Resolution is to spend less time on the internet.

    But I found this place.
    And the Resources page.
    Which had this:
    http://www.openculture.com/philosophy_free_courses