Yeah, in 2024 that "1 way to lose" will be the same as 2016: HRC. — 180 Proof

Hey guys. You make great points. Call me stupid but I don't know or have forgotten what HRC means. I'm guessing not Human Rights Commission.

How worthwhile is to revisit past speculations. And now, we have all the 'what if's' to play with.
It only matters if as @Fooloso4 suggests, it leads to:

... a better understanding of the majority and attempt to address their concerns in a meaningful way. — Fooloso4

How likely is that. How it is done is another matter. Perhaps involving a brain transplant or two.

If they say they will work for all of America. Then, there is a need to actively listening to all the people's stories - imagined and real. And not just to win at Election time. To work for real improvement in the lives of the ordinary. Seek out the unheard voices. Local communities. All year round.

Counter the growing anger and hatred by showing what is really going on. By whatever means that people will trust and not immediately go to 'fake' mode. Get real. Work hard and don't detach high above, safe and secure in your White House.

It might take the creatives to do this. By film or documentary. Whatever. Use the serious and humorous to relay the message you want to convey. Don't rely on celebrity endorsements and unhelpful advertisements. Billions spent. A tyrannical trillionaire in pocket. Take me to the moon, Musk.

Show the ridiculous clowns partying. The big red, white and blue balloons fattened, ready to burst or deflate. At whose expense?

I need to go now. Running late...

Yes. A harsh lesson and wakeup call. But will it change anything.

How many fall for the promised land of gold. Saved by God.
In God We Trust.

This movement is not only in America. It's wherever might is right.
The wars continue. People are killed and worse.

A proud Liar holds his prize high. The Criminal set free to fulfil his plans.
Receiving Congratulations, and more, from world leaders.
Shame on them all.

Where is the humanity?

News blackout is a good start. — Vera Mont

Yup. I no longer watch or listen to it. I read an online newspaper with my eyes half-shut or half-open. Not for long.

Walking a little in the sunshine...and getting an outdoor key safe installed.
Better than driving around a loch a second time to hunt for house keys.
Then returning home in the failing light.
To find you hadn't even locked the bloody door!

I did say I was tired and weary, didn't I...
Time to hibernate :yawn:

I'm trying very hard to find a light, humorous, optimistic theme. — Vera Mont

What for? Writing a story for TPF?

We have kittens... — Vera Mont

There ya' go...

*sighs*
So much for my break. I've been dragged from the depths...

:flower: Thank you.

Toni Morrison. This quote. So apt, not only at this time. I have to admit, again, of not reading her works.
I know that she is frequently quoted. A quick TPF search goes back 8yrs.

I agree that this is not a time for silence or fear. However, there can be a need to step back, breathe and remove oneself from the outpourings from all sides. The 'chaos' eventually clearing.

Language, speaking, writing, reading are used not just to heal but to harm. Words don't always come easy or gently but fly quick out of the barrel. Boom! Bang! You're dead. You get up, for more.

How best to respond can take practice. Typing here gives me that.
It is one of the reasons I started this thread. To think and write about how the 3 P's interact.
I can think of a lot more P's but that was for starters.

Making time, having the energy, the will to listen carefully to people, to look around at the environment, to learn from stories, past, present and future. That don't always come easy. For me, at least.

TPF is a special place for this. Observing and asking questions. Writing is what we do. Clarifying our thoughts and feelings. Through contact with others. Not only those who agree with us. Or are considered 'friends' - a band of buddies.

I have sometimes addressed a few as 'friend' - and yes, some are closer than others - I want to clarify that I view most participants, readers and writers as such. Where there is a genuine desire to meet the challenges of the mind and life, how can this not be helpful?

@180 Proof's quote was just what I needed. I looked for its origin. And found it in an article, here:

https://www.themarginalian.org/2016/11/15/toni-morrison-art-despair/

I was reading this when a pop-up appeared. A surprise gift of a poem.

But We Had Music - by Maria Popova.

Right this minute
across time zones and opinions
people are
making plans
making meals
making promises and poems

while

at the center of our galaxy
a black hole with the mass of
four billion suns
screams its open-mouth kiss
of oblivion.

Someday it will swallow
Euclid’s postulates and the Goldberg Variations,
swallow calculus and Leaves of Grass.

I know this.

And still
when the constellation of starlings
flickers across the evening sky,
it is enough

to stand here
for an irrevocable minute
agape with wonder.

It is eternity.


From: https://www.themarginalian.org/2024/04/06/but-we-had-music/

***

When sick - of politics or whatever - writers and poets can sing to us. Music is a universal language.
Story telling is what we do. To counter darkness with light. Through connection. Persevering. Fun :fire:

I hope that we will hear soon of TPF's annual serving - the December Fest of Writing?
@Jamal @fdrake @Baden et al.

Best wishes for future travels. :flower:

Till next time. — Paine

As ever :pray:

Thanks for link. Project 2025 and how it is implemented makes for grim and terrifying reading. How can such plans be thwarted?

This from the Guardian:

Donald Trump’s advisers are evaluating methods to carry out the president-elect’s promised “largest deportation” in US history, the Wall Street Journal reports. 
Currently, the incoming administration is considering issuing a national emergency declaration, which could allow Trump to use Pentagon funds, military facilities for detention and military planes for deportations. The administration is reportedly also assessing ways to encourage immigrants to leave voluntarily, perhaps by waiving a 10-year bar on re-entry.

I note that there are already protests - ' Protect our Futures' - taking place in New York. But who will stand in the way of the police or military tasked with rounding up immigrants or the homeless or whoever the bullies pick on. This is brutal.

Some days, it's a genuine privilege to be old. — Vera Mont

I am tired and weary. I hope that others can withstand all that is coming down the line. I am nearer the end of my life and live in fortunate circumstances.
I am grateful for that but can't say I fought for it. Others before me did.
I will never forget. :flower:

This is a most awful turning point...

Thank you, Vera, for this detailed commentary.
I didn't see the ad you mentioned. I agree it was very stupid, indeed.

I continue to be concerned and will read articles which sound alarmist but make terrifying sense to me. I don't feel up to paraphrasing or commenting in detail.

Basically, it is how the Republican win has empowered incels but there are other articles which tell of the increase in aggressive and scary racist texts.
White supremacists back with a vengeance. Online and offline.

Women being taunted with "Your body, my choice. Forever.
We control your bodies. Guess what, guys win again, okay. Men win again … There will never ever be a female President. It’s over. Glass ceiling? It’s a ceiling made of fucking bricks.”

In an analysis published on Friday, the Institute for Strategic Dialogue (ISD), a thinktank focused on extremism, found “a 4,600% increase in mentions of the terms ‘your body, my choice’ and ‘get back in the kitchen’ on X”.

From: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/09/trump-your-body-my-choice

***

I am not happy with the effects on politics in the UK.
Starmer could have congratulated the Republican win without grovelling.

Starmer said: “Congratulations President-elect Trump on your historic election victory. I look forward to working with you in the years ahead. As the closest of allies, we stand shoulder to shoulder in defence of our shared values of freedom, democracy and enterprise.

“From growth and security to innovation and tech, I know that the UK-US special relationship will continue to prosper on both sides of the Atlantic for years to come.”

It looks like appeasement. How the hell do we have shared values with a...what did @180 Proof say...

corrupt, incompetent, con artist, racist, rapist, misogynist, nativist-xenophobe-isolationist, hyper-protectionist, insurrectionist, autocrat & convicted fraudster

And more could be added to the list.

This does not bode well...
Already we have this:
Boost UK defence spending to win Trump’s support, former navy chief urges Starmer
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/nov/09/uk-defence-spending-gdp-trump-britain-military-budget-gdp

***
Closer to home, I don't want to speculate on how this will affect Scotland.
A place dear to the tyrant and where he has family and business connections. He already created problems. He is bound to continue to meddle in affairs.

The US president mounted a lengthy challenge against plans for an 11-turbine scheme off the Aberdeenshire coast, claiming it would spoil the view from his Balmedie golf course.

President Trump has often criticised wind power in his political speeches. Trump has said windmills cause cancer, kill birds and prevent people from watching television when the wind is not blowing.

Trump's love of spending time playing golf is well known (REUTERS)

He appealed to the UK’s highest court after twice losing fights in Scottish courts, but judges there unanimously dismissed the case.

His wind farm opposition led to him giving evidence at the Scottish Parliament as a witness at a committee inquiry into the Scottish government’s renewable energy targets.

Asked to point to evidence wind farms will destroy tourism, Mr Trump said: “I am the evidence.

“I am an expert in tourism, I am considered a world-class expert in tourism so when you say ‘Where is the evidence?’ – I am the evidence.”
— Independent-

He is stronger now than then and the Scottish government weaker.
Time will tell.

To you too :flower:

Thanks to you and others for sharing.
I've enjoyed listening and learning throughout this conversation.
Time to pack up for a break.
Take care, y'all :sparkle:

As far as I can tell, too many Americans are still not "ready" for a woman presiden — 180 Proof

Yes. I have one last read to share. It supports your view.

I spent hours trying to persuade US voters to choose Harris not Trump. I know why she lost - Oliver Hall

As a phone bank volunteer, I hoped to counter the Republican attacks and half-truths, but people really believed them.

Time and again, voters, very often women themselves, told me that they just didn’t think that “America is ready for a female president”. People said they couldn’t “see her in the chair” and asked if I “really thought a woman could run the country”. One person memorably told me that she couldn’t vote for Harris because “you don’t see women building skyscrapers”. Sometimes, these people would be persuaded, but more often than not it was a red line. Many conversations would start with positive discussions on policy and then end on Harris and her gender. That is an extraordinary and uncomfortable truth.

You should know what I didn’t hear during the hours speaking to US voters. I can only think of one occasion when someone mentioned stricter taxes on billionaires or any similar policies. The atrocities being committed by Israel in Gaza only came up six times in more than 1,000 calls.

After all those conversations, I think the main reason that Harris and Walz lost this campaign is simple: Trump. Ultimately, he was simply too much of a pull again. Despite the gaffes, despite his views on women, despite his distaste for democracy and despite an insurrection, voters just didn’t care.

For reasons that I’m sure will be studied for decades, when he speaks, people listen. When he speaks, people believe him. After all those calls, I can be shocked at this result, but hardly surprised.
— Guardian - Opinion - Kamala Harris

Thank you. I came on here at 3.50am - awake and troubled. I had thought to edit my post. Thinking I should really have responded to you in the appropriate Election thread.

Politics, the result and its consequences are clearly on my mind. However, I think I will avoid reading further in-depth discussion and analysis. Thanks for keeping your response brief and helpful.

Will only say this. I am glad that I don't live in a God-fearing, gun-toting country.
The seeming right to 'righteously' kill those who threaten your views. But who hold up their hands in horror and call abortion 'murder' of a person.

Human rights only considered of value if they are of a certain kind, colour and creed. The greed for gold and the rape of the world. For the few bastards in power.

In their absolutism, pretending with pietous, smug faces to be Godly 'good' while all the time being a force for what is the very opposite.
Fear, Hate and Destructive Divisions.

I'm tired of it all.

Still thinking about this:

6November24

Yesterday more Americans chose rather than rejected tyranny. To wit:

make Apartheid great again
make Antisemitism great again
make Anti-women great again
make Anti-immigrants great again
make Anti-labor great again
make Anti-intellect great again
make Anti-democracy great again
make Above-the-Law great again
make Assholery great again ... — 180 Proof

[emphasis added]

I've just read an article by masculinity researcher, Richard Reeves, which seems to shed more light on the gender issues. And how the Democrats miscalculated.

A question for @180 Proof and any others - how much would you agree that there was too much emphasis and reliance on women votes re abortion?

I think you don’t win votes if you’re not fighting for them. And the Democrats didn’t really fight very hard for the votes of young men. But they could have said:

“There are so many progressive young women who are worried about the mental health of their boyfriend or brother. There are so many progressive women who wanted a party that would support their reproductive rights and do a better job of educating their son.” [...]

Democrats benched themselves from the argument about men

Instead, at the very last gasp, they started to say to men: “Well, if you care about the women in your life, you should vote for us. Or maybe the reason you’re not voting for us is because you’re secretly a little bit sexist?” Trying to either shame or guilt trip or scare men into voting Democrat was spectacularly unsuccessful.

What do the Democrats need to learn from this?

The danger is that they just say all these men became sexist, that they were lured by misogyny. The danger is Democrats believe they just need to double down on attacks on patriarchy and toxic masculinity. That would be disastrous.

Instead, they should show young men that they’ve got an agenda that’s more up their street. Instead of going on and on about cancelling student debt, which is not a popular policy among men, they should talk more about trade schools and manufacturing jobs. I hope that they’ll conclude that they need to win men back by explicitly pitching them, rather than trying to recruit them as allies to the cause of women, which is a political theory that they just tested to destruction.
— Guardian- Young men and the Election

There is more to the article. Worth reading for another perspective.
***

How many billions spent or wasted - so many celebrities and billionaires.
What a party, huh?!
The whole American electioneering farce sickens me.

Being vigilant is not being a vigilante. But it may well come to that. If tyrannical laws are passed, who would become an outlaw. Prepared to go to prison for their beliefs and values? A Robin Hood, righting wrongs? [*]

Is there a philosophy of ethical vigilantism?

***

Ways to go on. One artist's perspective - Brian Cox:

As artists we have to bang the drum, we have to keep going,” he said in an interview with the Guardian. “We mustn’t put up with it. That’s why I admire people like Mark Ruffalo [a longtime advocate for social justice].
“I’m not going to give up on my criticism of Trump. I think it behoves artists to not give up, to keep the flag of truth flying, because it’s been so abused in recent years.”

“I look at the US and think it’s a fucking mess,” Cox said. “It doesn’t know who or where it is. Trump’s vitriol towards Harris during the campaign was unbelievable. [...]

What’s happening in Gaza is a genocide, there’s no question about it. It’s horrific. But it’s not going to get any better under Trump, because he’s a great friend of Netanyahu, so who’s going to be saying ‘stop it’ now, ‘behave yourself’?” He added: “I think the world has never been in a more dangerous place than it is at the moment.”

Cox also spoke about other crises he believed Americans would be facing, including reproductive rights and the climate crisis. “Women are being treated as second-class citizens in America and it has to stop, it’s gone on for far too long,” he said. “Nobody should be discussing what a woman should do with her body, only they should advocate for what happens to their body. How dare we make that assumption? It’s so retrograde.”

He added: “I can’t believe I’m living in the 21st century, because we don’t seem to progress as human beings. We seem to make the same mistake time and time again.
“The world’s in deep shit like never before. Trump’s not going to do anything about the climate crisis because he doesn’t believe it, no matter the evidence.

Cox was also insistent that he would “never play Trump”. He said: “I couldn’t play him for all the tea in China, there’s no virtue in him.” — Guardian - US Elections 2024

[emphasis added]

Why is it that for every step forward we seem to take 100 steps back.
In the blink of a an eye...blinded by gold.
Of a lying, bully boy with his rich and powerful pals. Deal-makers. Life breakers.
The winner takes it all.

***

[*] But even Robin Hood is just a tale, medieval - full of controversies and inequalities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood

Outlaw stories. Fact or fiction. Historical context. Can we find the real Robin Hood?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/robin_01.shtml

I'm wondering why you chose this piece. Is it a favourite or just something related to 'America'?
What it is and isn't. A complex arrangement of states, fine friends finding foes. Curious tastes of buddies and blows. Bodies in a flow of blood, sweat and tears. United in disunity or diversity?

The portrait of Bowie shows his startling asymmetry. A strange yet compelling, creative arrangement.
His music too a hybrid of styles. Moving outside the boundaries. Inventive. A fearless exploration.
I am not a Bowie fan but when I read his story, it intrigues me.

***

"United in diversity" is the motto of the European Union.
It's supposed to be about working for peace and prosperity. How is that working out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motto_of_the_European_Union

I am presently fixing a hole where the rain gets in. — Paine

Ah, I embrace the poetic and practical you. Acting and reacting with more than emotion, important as that is. Lyrical words and ways to make sense of and stop a deluge or torrential flood.
I think of the old saws. Prevention is better than cure. A stitch in time saves nine.

'Presently' - includes an awareness of the past, what is going on or what might be.

I find myself a time traveller. The songs of the past haunting the present. The memories, histories and stories of what some might think of as a 'Golden Age'.
Listening to the poetry of the creatives in all ages.
The never-ending questions, problems and joys of individuals within the cascading pictures.
Free flowing interpretations and misinterpretations. Fixing what you can, when and how you can.
Semper Vigilans.

***
Fixing A Hole (Remastered 2009) · The Beatles
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band



I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in
And stops my mind from wondering
Where it will go

I'm filling the cracks that ran through the door
And kept my mind from wondering
Where it will go

And it really doesn't matter
If I'm wrong, I'm right
Where I belong, I'm right
Where I belong

When it comes to democracy, it does matter if we get it wrong. When freedom turns to abuse of power.

I hear you, friend of mine. — Paine

Thank you, dear friend, I hear you too. And others.
Right now, I'm listening out for and attending to whatever lifts my spirits or gladdens my heart.
I don't know that my own voice - alone - has the power.

I can't ignore the way of politics and the actions and effects of the powerful.
I can't bring myself to listen to the sickening voice and twisted face of divisive hatred and tyranny.

I hear another friend of mine @180 Proof - on the American Election result and the MAGA movement.

6November24

Yesterday more Americans chose rather than rejected tyranny. To wit:

make Apartheid great again
make Antisemitism great again
make Anti-women great again
make Anti-immigrants great again
make Anti-labor great again
make Anti-intellect great again
make Anti-democracy great again
make Above-the-Law great again
make Assholery great again ... — 180 Proof

Please stay strong :flower:

So many words spilled. Observations made and questions asked. I engage briefly.
Trying to keep a balance.

Amongst all of this, we can hear other, different stories. Of an 'unlikely friendship' in a letter:

Sunk by Keir Starmer’s sycophantic words of congratulation to Donald Trump
‘Shoulder to shoulder’ | Time to abandon X | The Great Dictator | Lessons for the Democrats | Civil war averted | On otter pages

Thirteen pages in Wednesday’s print edition on the US election, and then that delightful story on page 17 (Otter’s bond with Shetland man features in documentary, 6 November) restored my faith in humanity.
Rhys Harrison — Guardian - Sycophantic Starmer - Letters US Election 2024

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/05/shetland-man-bond-otter-award-winning-film-billy-and-molly

Time to share our stories? To scream or silence our anxieties and hope, creatively?

Feeling sad and blue. What music to turn to?

An old favourite. From 1974. Lesley Duncan - Everything Changes



***

A newer, slow version of a Labi Siffre fave from 1972 - Watch Me



***
Neil Young knows where the music's playing.
Because I’m still in love with you. I want to see you dance again...



Come a little bit closer
Hear what I have to say
Just like children sleeping
We could dream this night away
But there's a full moon rising
Let's go dancing in the light
We know where the music's playing
Let's go out and feel the night

***

Time for a slow waltz in my heart and mind. Everything changes, love travels on... :sparkle:

Thank you :up:

Here we go again... — javi2541997

Good of you to direct unaware newcomers to the Discord site.

Yes. I noticed TPF was AWOL this morning. I assumed it was the same problem as discussed previously. Being one of those who didn't join Discord, I am unaware of progress or other plans for TPF.

I would hope if and when there is anything substantial to report, then @Jamal will notify TPF members. :sparkle:

This discussion was started by @Fooloso4 to look into how much value Book 10 might add to the whole work.

I think its value is pretty clear. With the final reflection on the Myth of Er, we can see the importance of poetic creativity in questions of philosophy.

As @Fooloso4 said here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15484/poets-and-tyrants-in-the-republic-book-i/p1

The question of persuasion and its means is of central importance. On the one hand, it is behind both the arguments of Thrasymachus and the other sophists as well as those of Socrates and the philosophers, and, on the other, of the poet’s stories of men and gods. The stories of the poets are an inherited means of persuasion manifest as belief. From an early age children are told the poet’s stories.

He attempts to persuade Glaucon and Adeimantus that being just is itself a benefit, both to oneself and to others. To this end, he acts the poet, weaving stories together with arguments.

Thanks @Fooloso4. Take care. Go well :sparkle:

I wonder if it makes much difference to talk of Socrates' daimon or daimonion. Perhaps he has both.
I can't recall where he explicitly talks of either. — Amity

It seems it does make a difference. With explanations and excerpts related to the daemonion:

In some of his myths, Plato, our chief source of information (along with Xenophon) on the daimonion, also mentioned a tutelary daimon (something like a guardian angel) that accompanies human souls (Timaeus 90c–e, Phaedo 107d–108c, Republic 10.617e, 10.620d–e).
However Plato does not associate this daimon with Socrates in particular or directly imply it is the source of Socrates' special sense. While the two words are etymologically related, daimonion conveys a more general sense than that associated with daimones, which are entities. The difference is analogous to the distinction we might in English make between "the spiritual" and a "spirit [...]

there are practical reasons for us today to study Socrates' daimonion. As each one may readily observe, in the course of any day we frequently experience inner 'voices' of doubt, caution and hesitation...

This presents us with a task of discernment — often difficult: should we act as originally planned, or heed the voice of warning. And on what basis do we decide? [...]

...listing excerpts from ancient philosophical literature on the subject. These are supplied, grouped by authors, oldest to most recent. To further aid personal study, a bibliography of main ancient and modern sources is follows. — Socrates and the Daimonion

All kinds of behaviour are shunned in any society. I am not unduly concerned re Socrates. Simply noting his behaviour as told. And wondering. I think sometimes he needed to be alone with his thoughts. Perhaps, this was a way of preparing himself...

How helpful or harmful are the 'voices' we hear in our heads? Are they our own reflections or something inserted by 'God' or any other being - a daimon? What do they tell us to do? Can we control them. Do we think of them as a guide we rely on? Or are they a result of brain/body chemistry? Dreams. Daydreams. Imagination. Whatever. They are all mental.

The problems start with delusions...and that's a different story...

The End of Book 10.
This is a story. But not just any old story.

And so, Glaucon, his story was saved and not lost; and it would save us, too, if we were persuaded by it, since we would safely cross the river Lethe with our souls undefiled. But if we are persuaded by me, we will believe that the soul is immortal and able to endure every evil and also every good, and always hold to the upward path, practicing justice with wisdom every way we can, so that we will be friends to ourselves and to the gods, both while we remain here on Earth and when we receive the rewards of justice, and go around like victors in the games collecting prizes; and so both in this life and on the thousand-year journey we have described, we will fare well. — The Republic - 621c

Who or what can persuade us?
Arguments, stories or arguments within stories...stories within arguments.
To fare well.

There are the accounts of Socrates' daimon giving him warnings. In Phaedo, the voice said he should set poetry to music. Plato shows him as withdrawn from others before going to the party in Symposium. Plato keeps pointing to these personal experiences but does not turn them into a single story. They seem to vary as much as the different myths that are used throughout his works. — Paine

I wonder if it makes much difference to talk of Socrates' daimon or daimonion. Perhaps he has both.
I can't recall where he explicitly talks of either. I do remember previous discussions.
From @Fooloso4's Phaedo thread - https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10914/platos-phaedo/p1

Socrates is doing something he has never done before, writing. He explains it this way:

often in my past life the same dream had visited me, now in one guise, now in another, but always saying the same thing: "Socrates,'' it said, "make music and practise it." Now in earlier times I used to assume that the dream was urging and telling me to do exactly what I was doing: as people shout encouragement to runners, so the dream was telling me to do the very thing that I was doing, to make music, since philosophy is the greatest music. (61a)

He continues:

I reflected that a poet should, if he were really going to be a poet, make stories rather than arguments, and being no teller of tales myself, I therefore used some I had ready to hand …(61b)

Several things need to be noted. First, he calls philosophy the greatest music. Second, he claims that he is not a storyteller. But here he tells a story about a dream from his past life. That it is just a story will become clear.

Unlike Socrates, Plato did write and he is a very capable storyteller, capable of the greatest music. His dialogues are akin to the work of the poets’ plays. What we will hear are not simply arguments but stories. The question arises as to whether this is a comedy or tragedy. Phaedo says that he was not overcome by pity and that Socrates seemed happy (58e) Phaedo reports feeling an unusual blend of pleasure and pain. (59a). As we shall see, opposites will play an important part in Socrates’ stories. — Fooloso4

[emphasis added]

Plato shows him as withdrawn from others before going to the party in Symposium. — Paine

Yes. I remember reading this and wondering about his mental health. What with his daimonion and now this odd behaviour; his absence being described as a 'fit'.

I turned round, but Socrates was nowhere to be seen; and I had to explain that he had been with me a moment before, and that I came by his invitation to the supper.

You were quite right in coming, said Agathon; but where is he himself?

He was behind me just now, as I entered, he said, and I cannot think what has become of him.
Go and look for him, boy, said Agathon, and bring him in; and do you, Aristodemus, meanwhile take the place by Eryximachus.

The servant then assisted him to wash, and he lay down, and presently another servant came in and reported that our friend Socrates had retired into the portico of the neighbouring house. 'There he is fixed,' said he, 'and when I call to him he will not stir.'

How strange, said Agathon; then you must call him again, and keep calling him.

Let him alone, said my informant; he has a way of stopping anywhere and losing himself without any reason. I believe that he will soon appear; do not therefore disturb him.
Well, if you think so, I will leave him, said Agathon. And then, turning to the servants, he added, 'Let us have supper without waiting for him. Serve up whatever you please, for there is no one to give you orders; hitherto I have never left you to yourselves. But on this occasion imagine that you are our hosts, and that I and the company are your guests; treat us well, and then we shall commend you.'

After this, supper was served, but still no Socrates; and during the meal Agathon several times expressed a wish to send for him, but Aristodemus objected; and at last when the feast was about half over—for the fit, as usual, was not of long duration—Socrates entered. Agathon, who was reclining alone at the end of the table, begged that he would take the place next to him; that 'I may touch you,' he said, 'and have the benefit of that wise thought which came into your mind in the portico, and is now in your possession; for I am certain that you would not have come away until you had found what you sought.' — Gutenberg - Plato's Symposium

[emphasis added]

Plato keeps pointing to these personal experiences but does not turn them into a single story. They seem to vary as much as the different myths that are used throughout his works. — Paine

Yes. The variations seem to suit the different contexts, audience and subject matter. The Symposium is one of my favourites. Party Perspectives on Love.

Socrates is presented as receiving instruction from his diamon at particular times. Those moments are not presented as unavoidable fate. It sounds more like thinking for oneself. — Paine

Socrates had a daimonion. This was an inner voice which gave Socrates warnings. If the daimonion was silent, then this was taken as approval.

Like an inner advisor, I suppose it could be interpreted as talking/thinking to yourself.
Perhaps an inner dialogue...asking questions, awaiting response. From the universe?
Or an auditory hallucination!

It does seem safe to say that the connection between 'spinning a thread' and mortality was well established in Homer. One example: — Paine

OK. I think I begin to see what you're getting at. Plural sisters acting in unison.
Fate encircling the life and death of body and mind.

What do you mean by the 'architecture of mortality' ?

Is this a daimonic determination of destiny. A web being spun.
I've read that:

Homer speaks of Fate (moira) in the singular as an impersonal power and sometimes makes its functions interchangeable with those of the Olympian gods. From the time of the poet Hesiod (8th century BC) on, however, the Fates were personified as three very old women who spin the threads of human destiny. Their names were Clotho (Spinner), Lachesis (Allotter), and Atropos (Inflexible). Clotho spun the “thread” of human fate, Lachesis dispensed it, and Atropos cut the thread (thus determining the individual’s moment of death).  — Britannica - Fate - Greek and Roman mythology

So, the connection to Plato's Myth of Er is a structure of morality.
After death, judgement day.
The moral, the good and the just are rewarded > Heaven
The immoral, the bad and unjust are punished > Hell
But that's not the end of it...
If you believe the myth.

Be a wise, little philosopher, or else ?!

The discussion of Homer translations is interesting. But I need to stay focused on the architecture of mortality and a surprise plumbing malfunction. — Paine

:smile: That's fine. I was just going with the flow...

Re: Emily Wilson's translation of the Iliad. Some interesting views:

Emily Wilson's 5 crucial decisions she made in her Iliad translation
https://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?t=72989

Emily Wilson's Translation of The Iliad
https://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?t=72905

@Paine

It seems the thread is turning towards poetry and Homer's Iliad. I'm enjoying it but not too sure where we're heading.

Is it about a poetic continuation in Plato? He isn't breaking away from poetry in any radical sense. The poets' influence seems clear. There is intertextuality.
I feel like I'm missing a deeper connection. Help?

.

"Care" is a perfectly good English word...I find no equivalent word in the Greek. μέλω (melow) is translated as care, but isn't quite right. The lexicon has it as, "to be an object of care." — tim wood

From my pocket Oxford Classical Greek Dictionary: Care as a noun ( anxious thought) - φροντίς

For my own purposes I remind myself that I have no interest in translating Greek but instead being able to read it. That means trying to "listen" and to hear/read/understand as would an ancient Greek — tim wood

Yes. I'm not interested in providing translations! As you know, to be able to read and listen requires you first to know the alphabet and its sounds. Then to see and hear the words in sentences, short passages. So, there is a need to translate if you want to understand the meaning rather than just the sounds.

The Greeks wrote - obviously - but their language is essentially an aural experience. You may remember trying to learn rules for accenting - and who cares? - and the modern approach is to ignore them. But dawned on me something no textbook ever told: that the accents govern rhythm, thus the percussive quality itself of the language conveying and signaling meaning. — tim wood

OMG. Yes. It's all coming back to me now! I remember the frustration. And then, the search for audio materials. They were few and far between. I don't know why but I hadn't realised the relationship between the dreaded 'accents' and poetic rhythms. Now I do, thank you! :sparkle:

In Homer, fate is the timing of a mortal's death. It has a role in the fortunes of the gods but not the absolute closure experienced by mortal life. I think the original idea is important to absorb before looking at how the work got broken up into parts. — Paine

OK. I'm turning to Homer for a bit. I found a new translation by Emily Wilson who was the first woman to translate The Odyssey into English.

The classicist and author Natalie Haynes talks to her about what the epic poem can tell us today.

Natalie Haynes: Your new book is a propulsive read quite separately from what an excellent translation I think it is. It is going to drag people through it, because it is an action movie, isn't it, in parts, The Iliad? Things really happen, and they happen at speed... — BBC Culture - The Iliad - How modern readers get this epic wrong

Emily's website includes her pronunciation guide. You can scroll down to hear a Greek snippet from the Iliad: https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/pronunciation-guide
Sounds scary!

Here's something a bit more sombre. Listen to and read the text at the same time:

Homer, Iliad 1.1–16 , read in Greek by Gregory Nagy
Citation: 1997. “Homer, Iliad 1.1–16 , read in Greek by Gregory Nagy.” Cambridge, MA: Department of the Classics, Harvard University. — Harvard Classics - Homer, Iliad 1.1-16 Read in Greek by Gregory Nagy

This from the OU is pretty good.

9 Listening to Homer
Knowing the sounds of ancient Greek, in addition to helping you pronounce Greek words accurately, also helps you to appreciate the rhythms of Greek poetry. Greek verse, unlike English-language poetry, does not rely on stress patterns and rarely contains rhyme.

To experience what a poetic performance might have sounded like, listen to this recreation of the opening of the Iliad, sung to the lyre. — OpenLearn - Getting started on ancient Greek Session 2: Sounds9 Listening to Homer

I asked earlier what Plato might have listened to. Well, d'oh! Homer - of course :roll:

@Paine - I look forward to hearing more. What do you consider the best translation of the Iliad?
Anyone? A free online version preferred.

In the story of Er, the diamon is chosen/assigned before birth. Its job is to make sure the individual life follows the pattern selected/assigned. If a former human decides to become a hippopotamus, the pattern will differ along with the constraints needed for that life to endure (as long as that life lasts). A different diamon will need to be brought on board to cover the action. — Paine

:smile: Interesting to imagine the different patterns in the lives of animals...wild, caged or tamed.
I thought it would be the same daimon - multilingual, able to adapt to whatever. Seems not.

The experiences of the soul are seen through a "mechanism" of life coming into being. The souls may be immortal but the work of each daimon is complete when Atropos cuts the thread. — Paine

I am puzzled by this. When did Atropos cut the thread? It seemed to me that she was part of the spinning. The daimon continued to be 'the guardian of the life who fulfils what has been chosen'.

From Horan's 620e:

“Now, once all of the souls had chosen their lives, they went up to Lachesis in the allotted order, and she sent them on their way, with the daimon that each had chosen as the guardian of the life, 620E who fulfils what has been chosen. The guardian first led the soul to Clotho to ratify the fate it had chosen, as allotted beneath her hand as she turned the revolving spindle. Once the fate had been confirmed, the guide led it on again to Atropos and her spinning, to make the web of destiny unalterable. From there it went, inexorably, beneath the throne of Necessity,

If the relationship between a soul and its daimon is over at the end of each life, that underlines a register of personal experience that does not survive death. This aspect makes the Er story differ from the other mythos Plato puts forward. This makes me wonder if Book 10 is a focus of Aristotle's criticism of Plato's view of nature. — Paine

It is not clear to me that the relationship is severed at death. Where does it say this in Book 10?

***

As a personification of fate, Atropos, along with her sisters, represents a fundamental aspect of Greek mythology. They embody the Daemones, spirits of fate who ensure the natural order of events, from the moment of birth to the finality of death. Their role is not just crucial but also revered and feared, as they hold sway over the destinies of both mortals and gods.' — Atropos - The Final Fate Who Severs the Thread of Life

[emphasis added]

So, I'm still confused. The fates are also daimons?

Continuing upon the theme of Book 10 as a kind of peace treaty with the poets after struggling against them in the earlier books, Aristophanes shows how common was the idea of visiting the land of the dead as a literary device: — Paine

Grateful for the return to poetry and the chosen passage.

he passed over option of "Plain of Oblivion" is the same Greek phrase used by Plato, suggesting he is working with an established story line and combining them with others. — Paine

Yes. I wonder if @Jamal would consider this a 'literary easter egg'?

I think care lies at the core. So, 'carelessness' seems to be negative.
— Amity
Two cents' worth here. There are times when ancient Greek words cannot be correctly understood through what seem English equivalents. (And I suppose the same can be said for any two different languages.) [...]

This doesn't solve any problems. At best it relocates the problem from to make sense of English translations to trying to understand the Greek itself. As if trying to decide which path to take at a fork in the woods. One path seeming easy and open and clear, the English translation(s); the other narrow, overgrown, somewhat hidden and difficult. The easy way eventually leading to error, the hard way being the right way. The trouble with the hard way being that it can be hard, and maybe a person doesn't make it to the end. — tim wood

Thank you, tim, for joining the discussion. I find it fascinating to read how translators decide to decode ancient works so that modern readers can understand them, as far as possible.

A long time ago, I made an attempt to learn Ancient Greek. I thought this would help me to read and evaluate the English translation(s). What I learned was that even simple words, sentences and texts are challenging and difficult.

It made me appreciate the years, if not decades, of work that it can take for professional translators to produce their best work possible. There is also collaboration with past and present authors/interpreters.
How best to approach it. There is no easy way. What matters is that the reader engages with Plato and gets the best sense, appreciation and understanding of his message. Each reader has different aims, aesthetics and will prefer one style over another, given their time, energy and intellect.

Setting out, I said I would stick with Reeve's translation. That sounded dogmatic but it was so I could focus on one, rather than be confused. However, I was open to other interpretations, as always. I have gained much by participating in this discussion. Still puzzling on...

There is nothing 'easy, open and clear' about English translation(s) - for their authors or readers.
And that, I think, is what Plato intended.

I've just finished reading the Foreword, Introduction and Beginnings of Horan's The Dialogues of Plato. The translation recommended by @Fooloso4.

Beginnings
Over the sixteen-year duration of this undertaking, the translation approach has evolved and refined. [...]
As my confidence and competence grew, I believe that I unconsciously adopted a method that Schleiermacher, another great translator of Plato, describes in his seminal essay On the Different Methods of Translating. Here he subordinates the popular designation of translations as being either ‘faithful’ translations or ‘free’ translations, to a division that is more relevant to philosophic works. He writes:

Either the translator leaves the writer in peace as much as possible and moves the reader toward him; or he leaves the reader in peace as much as possible and moves the writer toward him.[2]

If I were to attempt to capture the overall aspiration of these translations, I would say that they aim to move the reader toward Plato rather than leaving the reader in peace by adjusting the writings of Plato, and his associated language, to conform with modern expectations. A few simple examples of the translation of key words may help to explain my intention... — Platonic Foundation - Introduction by David Horan

There is more than this. I've been inspired by what I've read in the Foreword and Introduction.
I think it's time to move on and not get stuck in the mud.
To get over a sticky patch and to progress...to make it to the end. I think it most worthwhile.
Will you be joining in the fun?

Do you really expect me to wade through all of that? Not gonna happen.
Perhaps edit to make important points stand out?
As it is, I can't see anything to make me change my mind. Too much clutter.

What do you think is the purpose - at this spot - if its meaning is 'heedless' or similar?
— Amity

We can avoid being heedless by keeping to our proper measure in all things. Determining what that is has something to do with knowing who we are, which includes knowing who or what we are not. — Fooloso4

I'm returning to this. You are right. However, this purpose is at a different level. That of Plato's or Socrates' overall aim in story-telling. Through the Dialogues. It is a rhetorical context. Crafting a message.
To persuade that it is better to consume and consider wisely and carefully. And so on.

I am viewing this in its literary context. The perspective of the individual souls in the Myth of Er.
The need to drink from the river of Lethe as a way to progress, without care or anxiety, to a new life as a new-born. To blankly go where they haven't been before. Well, as far as they know...

I agree that in general, there's a need for balance - 'keeping to a proper measure' - to achieve wellbeing.
However, here at the river, there is no regulating vessel with which the souls can measure the water.

All souls (human or animal) who drink, forget. Perhaps some remember more in their next life according to the amount imbibed. But that is speculation.

Drinking from the river, in this context or circumstance, does not necessarily mean that they will avoid being heedless in the next life.

Time for a break and cuppa tea. With milk and no sugar. Thanks for the exchange of views :cool:

New beginnings. Here comes the Sun. Hope, happiness and freedom. In music. I know this is not to everyone's taste but I felt the need. :sparkle:

The lyrics of George Harrison

speak of the sun breaking through the horizon and the resulting feelings of warmth and happiness. The song’s infectious melody adds an extra layer of positivity, amplifying its overall feel-good vibe.

The Beatles - Here Comes The Sun (2019 Mix)

I wonder what Plato or Socrates listened to... :chin:
Hmmm...Hymns?

As already mentioned, I think the meaning matters as to the best fit in the context and circumstances. — Amity

I think we need to consider "context" as the entire work, "The Republic". This is what I said earlier, we look at the whole, and try to see how the part fits into the whole, and this is how we ought to understand, or interpret, that part. — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes. I understood what you said earlier and have not forgotten. There was no need to repeat. I agree that it is of benefit to read the Republic as a whole. It can also be read in context with the other Dialogues and what Plato is trying to achieve. What is his overall message. His purpose.

However, I am where I am. And persuaded to stay. Encouraged by @Fooloso4 to discuss 'ideas and issues that arise in the part of the dialogue we are reading'. Asking questions of self and others. Interacting in good faith and hope for an improved understanding.

There are contexts within contexts within contexts. That reminds me of the whorl of the spindle of necessity and its nestings. Perhaps I am on a different planet!

The context I am referring to is the literary context. It is just the situation where an event takes place, and any description or statement is given. Involving characters and views. The souls arriving at the river Lethe in the Myth of Er.

Now, in the situation described by the myth of Er, the people are dying, so the circumstance is one of unhealthiness. I believe it is better to consider them dying than dead, because Er managed to come back from this near death experience to tell the story. And, since it is a circumstance of unhealthy souls, the words are best understood to have bad connotations. So these words, "forgetfulness", "heedlessness", or "carelessness", are all best understood as the bad passions which are completely extinguishing the mind's rule over the body, and this will result in death — Metaphysician Undercover

That is an interesting perspective. The circumstance is not of people dying. The majority are souls about to return in another life. Human or animal. They have no physical body. Er's soul seems to have departed his body on the cusp between life and death. Just as the river can be seen as a border to cross. He is there in the Myth as an observer to return and tell the story, of the Myth.

It does not follow that the words are 'best understood' as having bad or negative connotations. Or as 'bad passions' which do as you suggest.

I could zoom in a bit more. However, I think I need to contemplate on 'carelessness'.
Thanks to @Paine for showing patience and persevering with this.

Earlier I asked @Fooloso4:
What is the message from either Plato or Socrates?
To be good, to care, to think, to be wise, to be just, to study and practise philosophy?
Does knowing ourselves save us from ourselves?

To which he replied: Yes, all of the above.

I think care lies at the core. So, 'carelessness' seems to be negative.

However, there are different ways to see 'carelessness'. As 'free from care' - having no worries, problems or anxieties. I can accept this as being necessary and welcome for the souls about to start a new life. They don't want to worry or about events in the past, present or future.

Drinking from the waters of the river Lethe can induce this state.
Of carelessness or forgetfulness. Of oblivion. To become a newly born with a blank slate...

Thanks to you and everyone for a most stimulating conversation :sparkle:

So who will volunteer to start one on Plato's Republic? :wink: :monkey:

It is Plato.He uses these two different words. — Fooloso4

It's late and I'm tired, so I should probably leave this.

When I asked if it was the translator, I didn't mean the English translators.
I was wondering about any of the Greek translations. How many versions are there of the 'original' Greek text? Who were the publishers?

How do we know those words weren't changed over the centuries?

think Plato intends for us to try and work though the connection. — Fooloso4

You know Plato better than I do. He certainly makes heavy work for us.
I am not convinced it is worth it, for me. I will read it on my terms. Probably away from here. Even it is different from your interpretation. I will stick with the one that makes sense to me.

Doing certain things will cause me trouble and pain. If I do them anyway I am being heedless or careless or unmindful. We often fail to learn from our mistakes. Have we forgotten what happened in the past? — Fooloso4

Trying to read Book 10 is causing me trouble and pain. As well as some degree of pleasure. I do it anyway and don't consider myself in such negative terms.

If I fail to learn from mistakes, it doesn't mean I have forgotten what has happened in the past. It means I'm pretty stupid but can still be 'just' or a good person towards others. I give myself a chance to recover and persevere, as far as I am able.

I don't believe in heaven, hell or rebirth. I am showing patience and tolerance in order to understand but there are limits. I do learn from mistakes. It is one way to grow and progress. Trial and error.

Right now, I am using a cost/benefit analysis to work out whether it is in my best interests to continue with this 'argument' or to do as Paine wisely suggested. To agree to disagree. Sure sounds good to me.

It explains why we do not remember what happened. Er remembers because he did not drink from the river. — Fooloso4

Forgetting is necessary if we are to start again. In a new form. Human or animal.
A multitude of past lives would get in the way.

We can avoid being heedless by keeping to our proper measure in all things. — Fooloso4

Can we? Can a frog avoid being heedless if it doesn't drink the 'right' amount.
Even if that were known? We are assuming a rebirth as a human.

Determining what that is has something to do with knowing who we are, which includes knowing who or what we are not. — Fooloso4

A problem for frog spawn, tadpoles or froglets.
Knowing. Forgetting. Remembering. Not always possible.
The scenario is unfair and unjust.
So much for Plato.
Good for some. For others, not so much. A matter of taste as much as intellect.

Good night :yawn:

Plato uses two different words λήθη (621c) and ἀμέλητος (621a) when referring to the same thing, the river. — Fooloso4

Is it Plato or the translator?

λήθη, forgetfulness, and ἀμέλητος, heedlessness, carelessness, or unmindfulness, do not mean the same thing but there is an overlap in meaning, — Fooloso4

Where is the overlap in meaning? I can imagine 'forgetfulness' as being separate and yet together with the others. More like being on a spectrum? With a range of values. But still that is pushing it.

We need to be clear on what is happening at the river Lethe.

This is one definition of Lethe: a river in Hades whose water when drunk made the souls of the dead forget their life on earth. Also, in Classical Greek, the word lethe (λήθη) literally means "forgetting", "forgetfulness".

What do you think is the purpose of its meaning 'forgetfulness' - in its place just before the re-birth?
What do you think is the purpose - at this spot - if its meaning is 'heedless' or similar?
A clear and simple explanation would be appreciated in relation to Book 10 and nowhere else.

Lethe and Aletheia have the same root. We might think of Lethe as having forgotten the truth, and Aletheia as remembering or recollecting the truth. There is, however, not a single truth but overlapping truths at issue. The truth of what has happened, the truth of the soul, the truth about yourself. — Fooloso4

I think I can understand and appreciate this perspective. The overlapping 'truths' of the past, present and imaginings of the future. Through the lens of life and death. Applicable to self, its narrative journey or mythology. How we experience and try to understand the world (or underworld) and our place in it. Physically and mentally. The forgetting and the remembering. The loss and recovery. The cycle.
The cosmic rhythm and change. How death shapes life. :death: :flower:

Nevertheless, the root 'lethe' means 'forgetting or forgetfulness'.
Why twist it with the addition of 'truth' to mean something else?
What is the problem with accepting the simple version?