• Is Incest Morally Wrong?
    Sometimes, philosophy must give way to art.



    Is it wrong to marry a duck-bill Platypus?
  • Things that aren't "Real" aren't Meaningfully Different than Things that are Real.
    Reality is the current dream. The choice is between uppers and downers. The red pill is meaningfully different from the blue pill. The problem is which way is up and which way is down.
  • Backroads of Science. Whadyaknow?
    A Feersum Endjinn?

  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    What I don't understand is why Trump voters are so eager to have more inflation.
    — ssu

    Perhaps they have little idea what they actually were voting for.     — Wayfarer

    While one who sings with his tongue on fire
    Gargles in the rat race choir
    Bent out of shape from society’s pliers
    Cares not to come up any higher
    But rather get you down in the hole
    That he’s in

    But I mean no harm nor put fault
    On anyone that lives in a vault
    But it’s alright, Ma, if I can’t please him     — Bob Dylan

    I think it's called "spite".
  • What should the EU do when Trump wins the next election?
    The US and Biden's push into Ukraine is the single greatest threat to the world since the Cuban Missile Crisis - not Trump. — Tzeentch

    Interesting relation. As I remember it was the US issuing the apocalyptic threats, and Russia backing down over Cuba. Now the boot is on the other foot. Perhaps it is the US turn to blink. Putin is insane but cunning. But I thought Trumps' platform was to make America Great again, not to make America feeble.
  • What should the EU do when Trump wins the next election?
    ↪Hyper
    Everybody got the right to cover they arse best they can.
    But thanks for the permission.

    Trump is insane, but cunning. And he will destroy America if he is allowed to, and possibly the world. How to respond, is certainly a conundrum for foreign politicians; my response to bullies, gleaned from long experience, is to attempt to bore them to death by not responding at all.
  • Things that aren't "Real" aren't Meaningfully Different than Things that are Real.
    ↪Hyper
    Try living in a picture of a house for a week, and get back to us.
  • Should I get with my teacher?
    No.

    Keep a professional distance. There is a duty of care, a duty of justice, and fair and equal treatment, and these would be compromised by such a relationship. It would compromise your teacher, threaten their career, and undermine your achievements as a student.
  • Backroads of Science. Whadyaknow?
    Outside my comfort zone by several parsecs, so talk amongst yourselves; probably you have to be a friend of a friend of Wigner's mother at least to relate to this stuff. but here it is is from the mouths of several veritable friends of Wigner's horses. So, respect!

  • Why Americans lose wars
    Everyone loses wars.
  • Earth's evolution contains ethical principles
    ↪Seeker25


    I am sympathetic to your instincts and the direction of your argument. But I am mindful of the difficulties. to take simple example, Dinosaurs roamed the earth and dominated the fauna for millions of years, and then rather suddenly died out, and were eventually replaced by mammals. What was their sin? Pride, perhaps?

    You might like to look into eco-philosophy a little, not much discussed or represented on this site, unfortunately. Try this maybe:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_Næss
    Lots of links there to follow up if you are interested. One advantage of this kind of approach is that it avoids the separation of human and natural interests.

    The judgement that evolution makes is survival or extinction. Easy enough from there to say that survival is good and extinction is bad, (from the pov of life, at least) but you see at once the difficulty - the judgement is always provisional and temporary and may be reversed tomorrow - see dinosaurs above.

    The industrial revolution seemed like a good idea at the time, and led to human growth; now, some of us are wondering ...
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    ↪Christoffer
    Yes, we will soon be shooting people at the borders and sinking the boats. But most will die of heatstroke or famine where they are. It turns out that frogs will not stay in the pot while you slowly boil them, but humans, I think, mostly will. Like the Palestinians of Gaza, respecting the borders imposed on them that they could have overwhelmed at any time.
  • I know the advancement of AI is good, but it's ruined myself and out look on things
    I didn't know this was even a thing. I went looking for the story...

    Garcia attorneys wrote in a press release that Character.ai “knowingly designed, operated, and marketed a predatory AI chatbot to children, causing the death of a young person”. The suit also names Google as a defendant and as Character.ai’s parent company.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/23/character-ai-chatbot-sewell-setzer-death

    Alas, young people are vulnerable, and legislators are old and out of date, (like me). So exploitation can run free. Well I hope you can see that here at pf. is some harmless, perhaps even beneficial, interaction with real people. The world needs a century or two to catch up with all the novelty of the virtual world; our legal and moral sensibilities cannot adapt so fast as the technology.

    So now you have drawn our attention to this, What do you think might be done about it? AIs are very quick and smart, but they have no intelligence or discrimination. I don't think anyone is entirely sure how to prevent such things without crippling the beasts entirely.
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    ↪Christoffer
    Welcome to my world!

    Governments of the world won't help people, they can't. — Christoffer

    After a careful examination, I managed to find two words to disagree with - "they can't." They can do a great deal more than they are doing. Instead of sowing division and conflict and xenophobia, they could help poor countries adapt somewhat; instead of subsidising oil, they could subsidise renewables; instead of pretending that endless growth is possible, they could start managing the economy to be fair and stable instead of expanding and exploiting. And so on. It's going to be bad, but there's no reason in that, to go on making it worse.

    Two fundamental problems that make our governments fail completely:

    1. Democracy entails short-termism.
    2. Giving all the power to the old does the same.
  • Can One Be a Christian if Jesus Didn't Rise
    I'm going to go out on a limb here bit, but I think Jesus had disciples before he was crucified, and I would think it sensible to allow that they were Christians even then, as they already thought him the Messiah, and ...
    Christ comes from the Greek word χριστός (chrīstós), meaning "anointed one". The word is derived from the Greek verb χρίω (chrī́ō), meaning "to anoint." In the Greek Septuagint, χριστός was a semantic loan used to translate the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíaḥ, messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_(title)
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    A report from Greenland; very quiet and sober, Not reassuring though. Time to start growing some gills.




    And to escape the meaningless graphs for a moment, a short report on India, and how poor people are affected. Human, and animal impact.

  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    ↪T Clark
    Hey carful there, we are in danger of reaching an understanding if not Gob forbid, agreement!
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    ↪T Clark
    Mu.

    But philosophy, as also zen, is a practiced discipline, a way of looking, more than a theory in a book. Burn all the books and start again fresh. That's what we do here at pf, apart from burning all the books.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Now it's the democrats turn to contest the election?



    Greg Palast, Investigative Journalist, https://www.gregpalast.com/
    https://www.watchvigilantesinc.com/
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    Another little local difficulty.



    Note: this video is from the end of August. Now, you can find many videos and satellite images showing lakes and rivers that have appeared in the desert.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    I don’t find philosophy useless at all. I use it all the time. — T Clark

    My first thought was to report you to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Philosophy, and then I remembered this, which has appeared in this forum before:—

    A Zen Koan
    The Zen master Mu-nan had only one successor. His name was Shoju. After Shoju had completed his study of Zen, Mu-nan called him into his room. "I am getting old," he said, "and as far as I know, Shoju, you are the only one who will carry on this teaching. Here is a book. It has been passed down from master to master for seven generations. I also have added many points according to my understanding. The book is very valuable, and I am giving it to you to represent your successorship."

    "If the book is such an important thing, you had better keep it," Shoju replied. "I received your Zen without writing and am satisfied with it as it is."

    "I know that," said Mu-nan. "Even so, this work has been carried from master to master for seven generations, so you may keep it as a symbol of having received the teaching. Here."

    The two happened to be talking before a brazier. The instant Shoju felt the book in his hands he thrust it into the flaming coals. He had no lust for possessions.

    Mu-nan, who never had been angry before, yelled: "What are you doing!"

    Shoju shouted back: "What are you saying!"

    http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/67whatareyoudoing.html

    There is theory; and sometimes there is practice. Philosophers are perhaps like architects; they draw plans of buildings or ways of life that do not exist; and sometimes builders and others make use of the plans.
  • Is Philosophy the "Highest" Discourse?
    If there is an air of insubstantiality about this thread, it is because it is concerned with the philosophy of philosophy. This makes it particularly liable to disappear up its own fundament.

    Accordingly, I propose, firstly, that philosophy is always parasitic; one might try a 'philosophy of nothing', but it wouldn't get very far. Rather, one first starts to talk or write about something and at some later stage, one starts to examine the verbiage philosophically. as philosophy of religion, or knowledge, or psychology or whatever.

    And secondly, I suggest an inversion. Philosophy is what one has recourse to when the edifice of one's talk has become sufficiently 'high' that it is in danger of falling into ruin. Thus it is the foundations of a topic that philosophy is concerned with, the very lowest.

    If possible, (ideally sic) the best foundation is bedrock, If one has reached bedrock, as Wittgenstein would have it, one has reached the end of that portion of philosophy, the questions are resolved or dissolved, and the superstructure is as sound as it can be.

    By contrast, spiritual talk is untethered, lighter than air and floats higher and higher until it reaches such height that it attains outer space, where there is no longer any up or down, and no one can hear you pontificate.
  • Post-truth
    ↪tim wood
    Big picture, dude. You do the closeups! Never mind carry on.

    I found it almost literally incredible that even a large minority of Americans could vote for Trump, never mind a majority. How did it come to pass - the credulity required is incredible?
  • Post-truth
    But to the extent that any party controls the better and the worse, which do you think has in the US governed for the worse, since, say, Hoover? — tim wood

    It really doesn't matter much what I think. Americans seem to think... well I'm an ocean away, see if you can get an idea of what they think. But I think that they think, since you ask, that you're all a bunch of incompetent greedy lying buggers, and they're messing with your heads by voting for the greedyest, lyingest, incompetentest, bugger around to give you a taste of the medicine you've been force feeding them from both parties since, say, Hoover.

    I'm not saying this is a good idea; I think it's going to work out really badly for America and the world. I wish it hadn't happened, but it gives too much intelligence to Trump to make him totally responsible. Democrats have been getting it badly wrong for a long time and this is their fault as well as ordinary republicans fault. Maga happened because they both failed.
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    An interesting chat about climate models, that explains how they differ from weather models.

  • Writing styles
    *Taps podium with a small stick*
    I think we are all as in tune as we're ever going to be; let's begin the overture...
  • Post-truth
    Obama's first or Trump's? Answer! And we can play this game for years, because that is how many lies Trump has told - or forever because he is still lying. And if you repeat and maintain them, then you're a liar as well. Just look at the history. — tim wood

    Yes, I already drank that cool-aid, and I'm wondering why it turns out most people are sick of it. Yes Trump only lies when he opens his mouth. But there is a lie you and all the righteous pedantic democrats have missed that they are telling, that matters and that people know is not true for them, that everything's fine except Trump's mouth. Really, people are poorer, and they don't like it, and everything is not fine. To people who are suffering, happy-clappy looks plain stupid. As stupid as worrying about who has the biggest hands/crowd/dick. And that's what you come back at me as the fucking issue? Maybe swear off your own cool aid for a day. You know how many times I've been told that Hannibal Lector is a fictional character? I been listening to too many democrats already. You're looking the wrong direction, man, you bin misdirected and you lost. Think about that. You corrected all the lies people don't give a damn about, and you lost, because people vote for demagogues who spew hate when they are full of hate because they are suffering.

    You can play your being right game for years, and go on losing and not understanding as long.
  • Post-truth
    Trump, apparently one of many, is post-truth. His - their - lies should not be, cannot be, accepted. — tim wood

    It seems to me that the Trump narrative, that things used to be good and have gone to shit is fundamentally true and agrees with the experience of middle America. So the only lie is the promise to make it great again.

    Whereas the democrat's lie that everything is fine because the stock market is up, which feeds on the lie that everyone is an entrepreneur (though who is left over to make the trade that everyone takes a cut of is a mystery); that lie is not convincing any more.

    Ordinary people are being screwed, and deceived into voting for the people who are screwing them, by misdirecting their discontent towards Johnny Foreigner and feeble democrats offering no solutions to a problem they are pretending isn't happening. The lies are on both sides and the result is no communication and the breakdown of society.

    Idiot Wind.
  • Backroads of Science. Whadyaknow?
    I think rather than a makers mark, password, or signature I'd prefer to think of these various protein complexes in analogue to the markings -- which also can mark all sorts of functions within a community. Mostly because the former suggests a singular hand, an "I" marking something, when in fact there is a wider system in which self/other makes sense (to annihilate or not-annihilate the cell) — Moliere

    Hmm. I'm struggling to understand this. Tribal markings arise in the wider system of tribes; cell markings arise in the wider system of multi cellular organisms; makers marks arise in the larger system of the marketplace.

    Going back to an earlier thread, marking is the act of making a distinction.
  • Backroads of Science. Whadyaknow?
    Metaphysically -- if self/other is a complex of physical proteins performing a function then it seems we'd at least overcome the hurdle of nominalism which uses reductionism: Here is a physical explanation of self/other which relies upon an assemblage rather than a cogito -- so the "I think" cannot be a pure, self-seeing clarity unless it is somehow not associated, at all, with the body which makes it up. — Moliere

    The functioning seems to me to be more like a makers mark, or a password, or a signature - in other words it is exactly a biological name/label and arbitrary at that if I read wiki aright.

    And now I'm thinking "tribal markings" as the social equivalent.

    Anyways, the world is indivisible so biology, psychology, sociology, have to create divisions with labels and talk, otherwise everything is mush. 'I am he as you are he as you are me
    And we are all together.'
  • Backroads of Science. Whadyaknow?
    Meanwhile, here's something that could have gone in the climate change thread, but the natives are restless so I think it safer here.



    Note: I have no reason to believe that Philip Prince is any relation to Prince Philip.
  • Backroads of Science. Whadyaknow?
    I found the idea of a protein complex as the basis for self/other fascinating, and still do. — Moliere

    Me too. A case where psychology recapitulates biology.

    To your wiki link. Alas my organic chemistry encompasses the idea that amino acids have an an acidic end and an amine base end, and so can form chains of peptide and poly-peptide. And the rest is a sea of links to a language I do not speak. But I vaguely get that self-recognition is necessary for the immune system, and the implications for transplants and cancers; but the gap in my understanding between basic chemistry and medical principle is too wide to even try a fill at this late stage. I wave my hands and nod wisely, hoping not to have missed something philosophically important.
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    Herewith, the future of energy, if we are smart.

  • Friendship & self-trust
    Is this not why it's an extrovert's world? — Hanover

    No. Even, perhaps especially, famous extroverts hide behind dark sunglasses and have people to talk to other people's people for them when regrettably necessary. God preserve us all from the hoi-poloi.

    We like to imagine ourselves broad-minded, sociable, easy-going etc. But nobody has the time or the inclination to even greet every passer by except in what remains of the wilderness, and only there in the really unfrequented regions. Other people are revolting! Don't even look at them! Get a robot for your intimate requirements!
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    ↪Wayfarer
    Under either regime.

    Because neither are honest. But the forces of nature require depopulation and the tightening of belts around stomachs and necks. That will happen under any regime, and most of all under a 'do nothing' regime.
  • Friendship & self-trust
    We are far apart; — Abdul

    ↪Abdul Nice. Much appreciated. — Hanover

    When one has a sense of self, of individuality, that very identification keeps one apart. And as we all have that sense, we have the need to be apart, solitary and thus lonely. But the world has become small, and we are become many.

    We are too close.

    Because you are far away, I can acknowledge you and we can begin to communicate; but when I walk down the busy street, I have to ignore everyone completely, and this is the universal condition.

    My neighbours are too close, and are good neighbours only to the extent that there are good fences between us that we both respect.

    Even our own children must sooner or later be expelled from womb or nest or baronial hall, though they are flesh of our flesh. "Go forth my son and seek your fortune".

    Only one who has the luxury of solitude can afford to lament our separation. Most of us are drowning in each other's stink.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    As I said:
    politicians and demagogues are only as powerful as the people let them.
    — Christoffer     — Christoffer

    That is true, but are you suggesting that history teaches that tyrants kings emperors dictators and oppressive regimes in general never prevail for a long time? That is obviously not the case; rather the contrary, such regimes predominate in human history, and justice, democracy, and freedom are rare and fragile.

    But what i am pointing out is that the Democrat narrative is if anything more mendacious than the Trump narrative. There is a real crisis: democrats are simply denying it completely, while Trump acknowledges it, identifies a false cause and cure, and proposes to go back to the good old days.

    What history teaches is that when prosperity is in decline, "the people" will support someone who identifies the problem and provides an easy answer - and especially if the problem is identified as a group of people who can be gotten rid of -immigrants, foreigners, Jews, Arabs, Muslims, barbarians, communists etc etc.

    The problem for "the people" is that there are so many people that are not "the people" but "the others". And whether "the others" are the SS or the Jews is a matter of perspective. The rule is that 'we' are always the good guys, and 'they' are the problem.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    People don't take the time, or they lack the skills, to understand. We will perpetually be at risk of being victimized by demagogues.
    — Relativist

    What you describe is our current post-truth environment. Above your post I've mentioned a few strategies to mitigate it.

    The thing that is important to remember is that politicians and demagogues are only as powerful as the people let them. Even in states of high authoritarianism. What post-truth is doing is slowly eroding society into being more subservient to populists and demagogues, so fighting against post-truth is the way to heal back society into being more able and willing to put leaders under more scrutiny.     — Christoffer

    Here is the truth. Automation has destroyed the power base of the working class. Mass production and mass consumption is no longer necessary to produce a surplus to fund the lifestyle of the wealthy. Climate change is getting expensive and undermining the security of the majority. This cost falls especially on the poor who tend to be underinsured. These things are going to get worse not better, and no government or prospective government can solve the problems. War, pestilence and famine are coming and everyone is going to suffer and many are going to die. Even to ameliorate this as much as possible is going to cost us all great sacrifice of wealth, comfort and freedom.

    You are not going to elect me, or anyone else standing on this platform, therefore your politicians all lie to you.

    And the bigger the lie, the more attractive it is.

    And Trump's narrative already has one truth that people can confirm from their own experience - that things are not on the up, but on the down.
  • Backroads of Science. Whadyaknow?
    All things of creation are children of the Father and thus brothers of man. ... God wants us to help animals, if they need help. Every creature in distress has the same right to be protected. — Francis of Assisi
  • Backroads of Science. Whadyaknow?
    And now— the biology of self, and the selfless organism.

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