• It's stupid, the Economy.
    Automation is a decision. Not fate. — Maw

    Really? Is it not decided by the invisible hand? If the robot is cheaper, the robot takes the job. And if the the capitalist has scruples he goes out of business.

    malign neglect ... abetted by the scale & complexities of technocapital societies. — 180 Proof
    That is saying the same thing in different language. Economics has always been malign necessity. This is a critique of economics as a form of life.

    I thought the one they put on the pedestal was the consumer — ssu

    No. The accumulator gets the pedestal, aka the capitalist. Mass production requires mass consumption, and that means that labour must consume in proportion. But this is changing too. 3D printers, allow economical bespoke production, and the consumption value of the masses has been lost along with their production value.

    If value is based on labor, it implies that people are simply looked at as utility units. Why should the end of work constitute a crisis? Are people anything but utility to you? — schopenhauer1

    It is a crisis of economics as the foundation of human social organisation. It's not a question of what people are to me, but a question of what they are to the system of organisation of social relations. If I like humans and can afford them, I might keep a few as pets, the point is they are valueless to the economy.

    Amazon will deliver to my remote fastness the materials and robots to build my palace by flying robot, and regular supplies of robot grown food until my own farming robots are fully functional. My trophy wife will be tended at the birth of my trophy children by the medibot who will also grow the spare body-parts I need...

    Manufacturing gives way to services - it has already happened to a great extent. And once the capitalist has unlimited manufactured servants, he won't need you anymore. Only land remains in limited supply.
  • Brexit
    I predict a shift to the left as the demographic changes — Punshhh


    Your graphic shows that it's the NHS what lost it. Once that's been privatised, the average age will drop and Labour will romp home, by natural selection.
  • Mental Conception - How It Might Broaden Perspective
    ↪Mww
    Half a cookie, for being right but talking confusion. Mine is the only real imagination, so if the man's imagination fails him it is only in my imagination.

    Unless you're volunteering to realise my imagining...?
  • Brexit
    I'd say Corbyn represents it. If he doesn't, who does? — Tim3003

    I suggest to you that the hard left is best represented by the red wall, the voters who for generations have voted Labour and found it until now unthinkable to do otherwise. The soft left is the middle-class identity obsessed chattering class who have thought they knew how to run the Labour party and that they could take the poor in the North for granted forever. Nowhere is the North/South divide so extreme as in the Labour party and that is the reason they lost the election. Denis Skinner was hard left, Corbyn is the ultimate softie, and that's why he was defeated by a blustering bully. And now everyone thinks the answer is a woman. Corbyn was already a woman!
  • Mental Conception - How It Might Broaden Perspective
    I think there is no question but that an architect imagines a building that does not exist. The skill is to do so sufficiently realistically that when the brickys, chippys and spreads try to realise her imaginings, the reality does not collapse immediately.

    I imagine a man who imagines he can fly flinging himself off a high building, and crashing to the ground. Either my imagination or his is lacking in skill. But your imagination will tell you which.
  • Brexit
    the membership is 500,000. But it is mainly made up of the hard-left, — Tim3003

    No, I don't think so. Left, sure, but not hard. They are not ex Socialist Workers Party, but ex apathetics by and large.What I am coming to think is that the economic policy was popular, but the images were insulting. "Vote for the cripples dossers and loonies party because we are all oppressed, and only a middle-class do-gooder can save us." There's no dignity in that.
  • Brexit
    They disliked Corbyn as a leader — Tim3003

    They who? Some of 'them' revered him as an almost Christ-like figure. Remember how the party membership increased. An analysis needs to account for both sides. I strongly suspect that the antisemitism thing cut little ice on the red wall, and what they objected to in Corbyn was the pacifist wimpy effeminate image. No one with any objection to racism would have voted Tory on that principle. Au contraire, Rotherham man, I suspect, rather liked the Yorkshire bluntness of 'letterboxes' and 'piccaninnies'.

    It's the economy, stupid, as they say. We used to have a working class in manufacturing, and now we have a working class in service industries. We need a rhetoric that valorises and validates service and servants, and a organisation that can represent them. Trade Unions never did, and caring has no status.
  • Brexit
    I meant do you regard the women in the same light? — Brett

    No, I think men and women are different and have different histories. The psychological problem of these communities is that the masculinity of the working man has become toxic. I think you are displaying with your questioning a middle-class sensibility to equality language. Toxic masculinity is a problem for women; ask Boris's exes. But what is your point?

    Perhaps I should explain some. In the good old days, men went down the pit and knew they were the salt of the Earth, the engine of civilisation, the forge of Empire, and the repository of all good things. They formed trade unions, working men's clubs, cooperative societies, public libraries, and the Labour Party, from their communal existence at work. In essence, Socialism was founded on a positive image of the worker as valuable derived from fact, and thus realistic. This becomes a conscious power in the community because of the proximity of the workplace.

    The pit has closed, and the source of positive identity and of social solidarity is no more. Positive masculinity has become functionless; bravery and strength are useless. One is left with senseless empty machismo expressed in driving fast and loudly nowhere, and other feats of strength. No social good can come of such a hollow fantasy of an identity.

    "What about women?", you say. And my response is that this is what has become of socialism; it has become identity politics, but a negative identity politics of a fantasy solidarity of the oppressed, where the disabled, women, immigrants, the working-class itself, are supposed to be united by their negative self-images as 'the oppressed'. And as an image it does not appeal the way 'salt of the Earth' does.
  • Brexit
    And the women? — Brett

    Yes, and the women. I'm characterising the culture as was and the radical economic change; women have never been unionised labour to the same extent, but they partake of the community that results.
  • Brexit
    the blue collar workers are waking up — Brett

    The problem is that there is little blue collar work. Large masses of people working in the same place and able to communicate, form bonds and recognise common interests no longer exist. The solidarity of Northern mining communities has not survived the closure of the mines and steelworks. Nobody wears a blue collar any more.

    What there is instead are heartless, crumbling communities full of toxic masculinity - chavs and perverts. Corbyn does not appeal to men who depend on their racer-boy drug- pushing image for their sense of worth; Johnson is much more their style.
  • Brexit
    Yet there are liberal rich. Are they suicidal or principled? Can't the same hold true for working class conservatives? — Hanover

    Sure, people can vote against class interests on principle. But usually, most of the time, most don't. Unless there is some other factor.The virtue of the rich and the poor is not that great, which is why there are left and right constituencies and areas.
  • Brexit
    The big question for us namby-pamby socialists is, 'why do turkeys vote for Christmas?'

    Can it really be that they hate sprouts more than they love life?
  • Brexit
    Cue break-up of UK. — Baden

    Let's get Scottish and Northern Irish independence done.

    UKxit
  • Why haven't my posts been removed?
    Let's get moderation done.
  • Brexit
    The difference between a joke and a dirty trick is whether you get it or not. They are the same thing understood differently. One mans subtle humorist is another man's arrogant liar.
  • Why do most philosophers never agree with each other?
    ↪Lif3r
    Well thou and I are most philosophers, so the case is proven. :cool:
  • Bannings
    Yes, not the quality one would wish for in a corespondent. I do agree with @leo though that the lack of notification and inability to display deletions is regrettable. Transparency promotes confidence. Pauline software rules!
  • Neoliberalism, anyone?
    We are not seeing the elephant in the room and that is migration and racism. All these brown people and foreigners 'invading' Britain and the US is what has created this popular movement. Racists want to keep Britain and the US ethnically white and the lower class is seeing their jobs being taken over by foreigners. — ovdtogt

    The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
    And the marshals and cops get the same
    But the poor white man’s used in the hands of them all like a tool
    He’s taught in his school
    From the start by the rule
    That the laws are with him
    To protect his white skin
    To keep up his hate
    So he never thinks straight
    ’Bout the shape that he’s in
    But it ain’t him to blame
    He’s only a pawn in their game.     — Bob Dylan

    That's not an elephant, that's a propaganda machine in action, 'because you're worth it'.
  • Why do most philosophers never agree with each other?
    Most philosophers agree about most things; that Trump is an odious incompetent, that the climate emergency is real and drastic, that Mozart is better than the Bee Gees, that coffee is a basic human right, that shit smells, and the pope is Catholic.

    And all that goes without saying, so the stuff you get to hear about is the odd region where things are as yet undecided.
  • Friendship - For Many And For None -
    If someone calls you "friend" and you turn around and say "uhh, no we're not", it's going to make you seem unapproachable and anti-social. I know that because that's exactly what I did and it was obvious as soon as I said it that it highlighted the truth that I don't particularly care for them or trust them. — Judaka

    Care and trust is about where it's at for sure. My favourite cliche is that "you cannot have friends you can only be friends." Kinda like the good samaritan - its an action, not a character trait.

    What's the name of the song? — Gus Lamarch

    I think its just called "I see us all get Home." Google "The Incredible String Band" for many delights from the good ol' days. And here's another favourite:
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/30/donald-trump-george-monbiot-misinformation?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR3DdI1mSbzqTDb5rQIEjj9_JugbF-s8OKXvZOEwLiMQAJbFqkxwXaB_zwI
  • Friendship - For Many And For None -
    Music inspires me — Gus Lamarch

  • Is Cantor wrong about more than one infinity
    ↪Umonsarmon
    I am confused. Cantor agrees and shows that the rationals are countable. As far as I can understand you, he uses a similar method to your own, except he does not have recourse to binary.

    But what is uncountable is the reals, which include irrational numbers like Sq root 2, which was discovered to be irrational by the Ancient Greeks, much to their consternation. So where are root 2 and pi in your list?
  • Is Preaching Warranted?
    A preacher, on the other hand, has something s/he thinks we might need. People look for teachers but preachers look for people. — TheMadFool

    And the proof of this is that school is always voluntary, whereas if you don't send your kids to church, you get arrested and/or fined.
  • Is Preaching Warranted?
    The great thing about God is that nobody can prove He does not exist. — ovdtogt

    There's not much that anyone can prove does not exist. And it's one of the least important or interesting things about God. If you believe in proof, do you need to believe in the existence of proof? Can you prove that proof does or does not exist? What does it even mean?
  • Is Preaching Warranted?
    I think god is a bit like that irritating teacher that tries to get the kids to find out shit for themselves instead of just telling them the right answers. "work in teams, boys and girls, learn to cooperate experiment and share."
  • Do we have more than one "self"?
    Less than one.
  • Why mainstream science works
    Religion, Homeopathy and Acupuncture do work. — ovdtogt

    Of course they work! And you didn't need to post that on sciences' machines to inform me; your psychic fluence had already informed us before you pressed the first key.

    Not.
  • Why mainstream science works
    Mainstream science rules because the magic works. If the magic doesn't work, it's religion.
  • Bannings
    I would like to make it clear that i did not have sex with the woman I have no memory of having been photographed with, and If I did, I did not inhale. Anyway I was only there to explain that I could not continue the relationship that I have no recollection of. And anyway it was an accident. I mean consensual. Massage. I like massage quite a lot. I was in the war you know.
  • Licensing reproduction
    *Looks around for evidence that the great and good actually have any idea how to run things, bring up children or make sensible decisions*.

    *Looks around for evidence that philosophers and psychiatrists actually have any idea how to run things, bring up children or make sensible decisions*.

    *Shakes head in despair.*
  • Procreation is using people via experimentation
    Some people just blindly follow religion, — schopenhauer1

    The anti-natal theme in Christianity is quite strong, in the monastic tradition, the celibacy of priests, the Shakers, Cathars, and the general notion of the fallen state of man and the vale of tears. And it ends in apocalyptic fantasies of rapture, second coming and so on.

    My question isn't really about relationships, but about the morality. The Shakers were anti-natalist and their way of life did not survive. So there is a pragmatic moral principle that anti-natalists should have children to spread the word. Rather like the Bodhisattva reincarnating after enlightenment...
  • Procreation is using people via experimentation
    I wonder if folks can agree with a more limited moral point as a start.

    If one procreates, one is responsible for one's children. Now we could complicate this with responsibilities to society and society's responsibilities to children and parents, but it seems uncontroversial that nevertheless one is responsible for one's children's welfare.

    My daughter is on the other side of the world, and that responsibility is pretty marginal now. Still, if she were taken ill and needed to be flown home, we'd sell the family jewels, and kill the fatted calf.

    So what would be my position if my daughter were so miserable as to wish she had never been born? what would be my responsibility if she were a tedious repetitive proselytising anti-natalist? Should I be proud or ashamed?
  • Brexit
    Unless it reflects a change of opinion related to age. — Benkei

    I'm way too philosophical to actually do the research, but it makes intuitive psychological sense that young people are radical and know everything better than we old-fogies who have become set in our ways and cannot believe there is anything better than our wisdom born of experience.

    Or to put it another way, having spent most of a lifetime accumulating a small stash, the olds are not about to vote to give it all to young wastrels.
  • Procreation is using people via experimentation
    I disagree, I think... — DingoJones

    Opinion without argument.

    Here is a test — DingoJones

    I have interacted with him before, several times, and sometimes managed to have an interesting discussion, and sometimes I get bored. But there are many posters I engage for a bit and then get bored with. Actually, I find you preachy and boring more so because you preach a thoughtless conventional scientistic wisdom that is immune from any self criticism. Schop and I are about as opposed as we could be on this and many other topics, but that is valuable in a discussion to anyone who is interested in philosophy rather than following convention.
  • Procreation is using people via experimentation
    How this doesnt count as preaching and against forum regs is beyond me. — DingoJones

    It's an argument. It's quite a strong argument against any form of utilitarianism. "Your joy cannot justify my suffering." Schop is extending the complaint of the monster against Frankenstein to that of every unhappy person against their parents. Repetitive is a fair complaint, but not preaching.
  • Can you trust your own mind?
    "My mind is absolutely unreliable". How would I proceed from there? — Wheatley

    One carries on regardless, because one's mind is absolutely unreliable.

    Or else one stops and does not proceed.
  • Brexit
    https://www.facebook.com/conservatoffs/videos/2366273793584951/

    A man without even an opinion.
  • Davidson - Trivial and Nontrivial Conceptual Schemes - A Case Study in Translation
    Materialism: The belief that the universe consists entirely of matter.
    Immaterialism: The belief that the universe consists entirely of mind.     — ZzzoneiroCosm

    Is the difference manifested in words only, or does it affect behaviour more generally?
    Does the immaterialist offer to do the dishes by thinking them clean, or does he use the sink? Does the materialist always use his fingers to count?

    So while visiting a cemetery (which we do for fun), I see you talking to a gravestone, and I know something's up. I have reason to be confident that our beliefs are not the same on the issue of talking to graves. You're wrong about something. — frank

    Nothing wrong with talking to a gravestone; the difficulty is all in the reply.

    I have never met a materialist who treated himself as an object, or an idealist who didn't eat.
  • Brexit
    It was the best of Doms, it was the worst of Doms. — Charley Dickeds
Home » unenlightened