Brett

Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

Yes. A mark on a piece of paper. Abstract artists might have been trying to achieve this.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

It is if we’re talking about it, though.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

Because I had reconsidered my views on this subject.
What does it mean to be part of a country?
↪Anaxagoras

Yes, so what is a country? A country is a border.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

That’s what meant by everything is subjective. I was agreeing.
What does it mean to be part of a country?
↪Anaxagoras

Yes, so to be part of a country is to take on that culture. So country is culture. But whose?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

I’m confused by that.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
[reply="Terrapin Station;

Everything is subjective.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

Copernicus’s theory is an objective fact. You said it has merit. You also said merit is subjective, not objective.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
Merit is inherently subjective. It can't be objective. — Terrapin Station
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

Because you said merit was subjective.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

Why does Copernicus’s theory not have merit?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

I was trying to establish an objective fact that we agreed on,
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

Is the earth circling the sun not that?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

I see what you mean. I thought you meant there was no value in that process.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

So what is an objective fact?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
as I see it as a tool for a lack of knowledge regarding how content was achieved. — Terrapin Station

By who?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

Does Copernicus’s theory have merit?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
I think it's absurd to approach auteur theory selectively, as I see it as a tool for a lack of knowledge regarding how content was achieved. — Terrapin Station

Then I guess, no insult intended, art is not something you respond to.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

Oh god, here we go. That’s the theory and that’s the exploration. Does a mathematical formula have merit?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

This: ‘objective merit’.
What does it mean to be part of a country?
↪Anaxagoras

I really feel that depends on the degree of difference. I live in another country, it’s easy to assimilate because I’m hardly noticed. Everything is similar. I can imagine the next generation of immigrants feeling as you suggest, but not those first immigrants from a radically different culture. But I really don’t know what it’s like for them. Though I’ve met some older immigrant who could still not speak the language very well and they seemed intent on being that way, or unable to adapt.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Isaac

Yes, unfortunately that’s true. Their existence somehow nullifies the possibility of there being objective merit.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

But you wouldn’t regard Bay as auteur, would you? Bergman, yes.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Terrapin Station

↪Terrapin Station

↪Terrapin Station

I hate to get into one of those endless discussions, but this hasn’t been proven either way, it’s an exploration.

Could a mathematical formula be regarded as art?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
There's no reason (nor need) for him to find objective merit in Michael Bay's works in order to make an argument that the pretense that the elites can find such merits is a false one. — Isaac

Who are these elites anyway? Academics, critics, money, art galleries?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
I think rebellious counter-cultures are just as contrived as the mainstream culture they ostensibly replace. — Isaac

Man, your hard work. I guess I mean that originality (another subjective issue), the audacity is what makes art exciting. But maybe that’s not what art is anymore.
What does it mean to be part of a country?
↪Anaxagoras

I was thinking that if you were an immigrant but also a citizen would that make you feel a part of the country? Maybe that’s one experience of being part of a country: an outsider.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
In some ways I think art should be elusive or rebellious. The elites always arrive after the fact, it couldn’t be any other way. Their views or opinions will always be suspect as a result. The objective merits of art are a lot harder to pin down than attacking the elites. So I find Zhoubotong in the same camp as those he atracks, he attacks the elites instead of finding objective merit in Michael Bay’s work.
What does it mean to be part of a country?
What is a country, anyway?
What does it mean to be part of a country?
↪Anaxagoras

If you were an immigrant from a different culture wouldn’t you have to strive to find that? And because of that would you feel part of it or not?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
But there's still a giant gap between this skill, and their opinion that certain subjective reactions being produced in certain ways are 'better' than others. — Isaac

As much as I wish this wasn’t true I think you’re right. I’d like to find some objective merit. But I’m reminded of what someone said about the Shoah, and I’m paraphrasing, that maybe being able to comprehend it would be a bad thing. But I still feel the need to fend off Zhoubotong.

Maybe some art forms feel more human than others.
What does it mean to be part of a country?
Maybe it doesn’t mean anything anymore.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
It’s like saying that posters on this site are just ‘geeks with dictionaries’ and they all disagree so philosophy is a con and that Plato, Hume, etc. mean something because they have their followers, that it’s all subjective, that philosophy is a fashion of the times. I’m sure anyone here would despute this quite rigorously.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
conveniently ephemeral — Isaac

Like this phrase. As if there’s some effort to hide the fact that there’s no ‘merit’ in art and that it’s a con.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Isaac

I understand that, but I feel there’s not really an attempt here to try and find that merit through discussion. To try and pin it down the best we can. For instance would anyone agree, at least, that writers may have some idea of a writers merits?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
I think it’s worthwhile, in determining whether a novel, for instance, has artistic merit, to remain with the genre the book lives in. The works of Gabriel Garcia Marquez are absolutely loaded with symbolism and dense imagery, more than most other genres could cope with. To compare it with the realism of Bellow, for instance, would not help in defining its merits. It’s quality would be in comparing it with of books of ‘magic realism’.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
↪Isaac

Would you consider reviews of books by other authors as at least having some basis for making judgements on ‘merit’?
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
Of all the possible reasons why a group of critics might reach a conclusion about the quality of a book (fashion, group dynamics, academic pressure, ignorance, stubbornness, narrow-mindedness, personal bias...) what is it that convinces you that their improved knowledge of the book is the primary influence? — Isaac

You left out some of the other reasons critics may have for reaching a conclusion about a book, ideas like: quality of writing, plot, characters, grammar, pattern and rhythm, tone and style, symbolism, setting, themes, imagery and so on.
Art highlights the elitism of opinion
To be fair we coudl choose to look at “Transformers” as being an exploration of human religions regarding it as a commentary on how we anthropomorphize inanimate objects and how this has led us to animate inanimate matter in the creation if machinary stemming from the humble “rock” as an extension of the arm (the “hammer”) into flying vehicles and machines that can carry us to others worlds. — I like sushi

True, we could. And I’m sure the writers play with symbolism and ideas, but I can’t imagine that the bulk of the audience, who go for the action, are going to get that. Apart from that the film us made to make the money right now. It was never intended to have a future or a lasting message.

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