Somehow I don't see NJ as being first, though. — tim wood

Neither do I.

And I don't think California is ready for that either.

Bierce was a genius.

I have written a couple of published op ed pieces that advocate for requiring each state here in the US to send one male senator and one female.

Females, in general, seem (at least to me) to do a better job of "running" things.

What possible difference does it matter whether "Jesus" ever lived or not?

There were some teachings that somebody (or a group of somebodies) developed that has morphed into an ethic, of sorts, that many people live by today.

"Did the 'Christian ethic"'develop?" is an easier question to answer.

YES...of course it did.

How?

What difference does it make "how?"

It has.

We can deal with the fact that "it has" without dealing with whether or not Jesus, the person described in the Bible, ever lived.

ASIDE: There seems to be amble evidence that this guy, Paul, lived...and had a following. That seems to be a much more important aspect of Christianity (and the ethic) to deal with than whether or not the Jesus character did.

Baden
9.9k
This is the reason the liberal media isn't covering this. It's hard them to come to terms with it.
— frank

Yep.

↪Frank Apisa

If I'm inconsistent you can feel free to point it out, especially if you're willing to quote me. Meantime, take a chill pill. Nobody needs to have a coronary over this. — Baden

Right now, I am wishing you could be a little inconsistent. You ARE being consistent...being a nudge; being a troll; being unnecessarily disagreeable...for no apparent reason. I agree with 90% of your advocacy, but you have gone apeshit because I have mentioned something about the Tara Reade story that is almost impossible to be true.

She was standing up fully dressed in a Senate hallway...yet she says he was able to shove his fingers up into her.

Try it sometime. Try it with the woman cooperating...and you will see how difficult it is to do. It takes time and maneuvering...and then more time and maneuvering. And most of the time you are not going to get it done...unless you've coated your fingers with Vaseline.

As for the "coronary" no problem on m part. I am bothered by the fact that you apparently are in a coma.

If we can...let's get back to being reasonable with each other.

Baden
9.9k
Anyway, I'm done with making that point. We can move on. — Baden

Okay...start shoveling the other side.

Baden
9.9k
I have nothing but the greatest of respect for women..
— Frank Apisa

Nobody respects women more than me.
— Trump

I've been referring to the way you talk about women, nothing else. In that respect, you two are twins even in your excuses. — Baden

By the way...if you would stop digging for a moment and take a look at those two quotes...

...you will see a world of difference in what was being said.

Take another look.

Baden
9.9k
I have nothing but the greatest of respect for women..
— Frank Apisa

Nobody respects women more than me.
— Trump

I've been referring to the way you talk about women, nothing else. In that respect, you two are twins even in your excuses. — Baden

You are digging a hole for yourself, Baden...and I do not mind encouraging you to dig deeper.

If you need a sharper spade or shovel...just ask. I'll be happy to help you.

Baden
9.9k
I had a period in my life after a divorce where I was promiscuous...banged any woman willing. I was a lucky guy...and there were MANY willing. I had no real bucks, but I WAS a bartender...and the bartender always has a shot at the leftovers. Yeah, some were skanks, but I've had my share of ultra-fine.

If you think you've gotten laid more than I...we can talk more. But you'd have to come up with some big numbers
— Frank Apisa — Baden

Yes, I imagine for someone who has lived a humdrum life and gotten laid infrequently, that may seem to be "talking badly about women."

It is not...and the women with whom I've romped would laugh in your face for considering it to be so.

Baden
9.9k
↪Frank Apisa

In terms of how you talk about women, you have, I'm afraid. — Baden

I have nothing but the greatest of respect for women...and have not said anything a sane person would consider dishonorable to them.

Yeah...I've bedded many...and they and I have mutual respect. I've not "taken advantage" of young women or women who consider a romp to be immoral...and your bullshit is just that.

Baden
9.9k
↪tim wood

No, he's the mirror image of the guy he claims we'd have to be Nazis to support and you're playing the apologist because it's your guy and not a Republican.

Without a consistent line neither of you have any credibility. — Baden

Projection...on a cosmic scale.

Baden
9.9k
Now that Frank has morphed into Trump, maybe he'll change his vote? — Baden

I have not morphed into Trump...and although I previously thought you were a decent, intelligent poster with whom I mostly agreed, I see I was wrong.

You are trolling me...and you are showing yourself to be a small, petty person.

Good luck living that kind of life; I'd sooner be dead.

tim wood
4.2k
↪Frank Apisa I've been reviewing legal definitions of rape online. It's not as completely simple as may seem it should be. And of course some of the details depend on the jurisdiction. It seems there are two main elements, both required. Penetration (of what by what varying), and lack of consent. Lack of consent is tricky. Lack of objection is not consent. On the other hand, consent need not be explicitly verbal. Assuming the charge is accurately stated above,
pinned her to a wall in a Senate building, reached under her clothing and penetrated her
that's a description of a physical act, and is silent on consent. Here's Wiki on it: 'Consent is affirmative "informed approval, indicating a freely given agreement" to sexual activity.[24] It is not necessarily expressed verbally, and may instead be overtly implied from actions, but the absence of objection does not constitute consent.' It doesn't take a law degree or even being a TPF amateur philosopher to see how there could be problems with the idea of consent, and that the details matter. Further (imo) if she consented in the moment but rued thereafter, then not rape.

In sum, the legal charge of rape can be made but sometimes the truth not-so-simple. — tim wood

Good material.

One thing I noted: "Lack of objection is not consent. "

Precisely.

When I was in my rampage days, I made a deal with myself...and pretty much kept to it diligently.

The was the deal: Only do the deed if the woman says "YES"...and anything less than a specific YES...is to be considered a NO.

There are some women who want to be "dominated" before they "give it up"...and require that the guy "assert" himself.

I think those women are kidding themselves...and I avoided them like the plague. There are plenty who are willing to engage...and give specific consent.

Lack of objection IS NOT CONSENT.

Maw
1.9k
Let me say this without equivocation: “Pinning” a clothed woman to a wall and managing to “penetrate her” with your fingers…EVEN WITH THE WOMAN’S TOTAL COOPERATION…is one hell of a feat...goddam near impossible. Without her cooperation…I am saying it IS impossible without causing injury that would need immediate medical care...unless the woman is a porn star in the “fisting” section of porn sites and had just finished shooting a segment
— Frank Apisa

Uh oh looks like someone's never gotten to third base — Maw

I had a period in my life after a divorce where I was promiscuous...banged any woman willing. I was a lucky guy...and there were MANY willing. I had no real bucks, but I WAS a bartender...and the bartender always has a shot at the leftovers. Yeah, some were skanks, but I've had my share of ultra-fine.

If you think you've gotten laid more than I...we can talk more. But you'd have to come up with some big numbers. Luckily, I found the right lady...and have been true blue for 35 years.

Baden
9.9k
↪Frank Apisa

This is a really sick post. — Baden

Nothing sick about it.

Just something to be considered.

The story Tara Reade told may have a seed of truth...but there is no way he just penetrated her.

StreetlightX
5.1k
“Pinning” a clothed woman to a wall and managing to “penetrate her” with your fingers…EVEN WITH THE WOMAN’S TOTAL COOPERATION…is one hell of a feat...goddam near impossible
— Frank Apisa

Given it a go, have you? — StreetlightX

Yeah...with the woman's total cooperation. Ended up on the floor before we got hurt.

Anyone who disagrees with me on this has probably never tried it...WITH THE COOPERATION OF THE WOMAN.

About the Tara Reade Charge:

Here is the charge:

Former aide, Tara Reade, who briefly worked as a staff assistant in Mr. Biden’s Senate office, told The New York Times that in 1993, Mr. Biden pinned her to a wall in a Senate building, reached under her clothing and penetrated her with his fingers.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/us/politics/joe-biden-tara-reade-sexual-assault-complaint.html


Let me say this without equivocation: “Pinning” a clothed woman to a wall and managing to “penetrate her” with your fingers…EVEN WITH THE WOMAN’S TOTAL COOPERATION…is one hell of a feat...goddam near impossible. Without her cooperation…I am saying it IS impossible without causing injury that would need immediate medical care...unless the woman is a porn star in the “fisting” section of porn sites and had just finished shooting a segment.

At best, one might be able to “cop a feel” of some pussy hair…but penetrate??? A person would need fingers coated in Vaseline to facilitate penetration of an unaroused, standing, clothed woman. Under those circumstances, the woman would have to be panting in arousal to be wet enough for the penetration to occur without further lubricant.

As I said…something gross and unwanted may have (probably) happened. Joe Biden may have made an unwanted move on the woman…and may have gotten way more “handsy” than any man should have. But the story as suggested leaves more questions in my mind than it furnishes answers about what that “something” was.

Either Ms. Reade was more willing than she acknowledges…or she has accidentally or purposefully embellished the story considerably.

Hanover
5.4k
I boycott all North Korean goods. Sure, it's difficult around Christmas when looking for that perfect gift, but it's the least I can do to de-fund their nuclear program. — Hanover

Just wanna say: Great!

I love these kinds of things, Hanover. You aced it.

Baden
9.9k
↪StreetlightX

I used to think communism meant the "same for everyone". When I was six years old. — Baden

Almost any response I want to make to that would probably get me banned...so I'll just say...what you thought a decade ago may have changed significantly. But as you get older, things tend to settle down.

StreetlightX
5.1k
So my comment that communism has "same for everyone" is not at odds with modern considerations about communism.
— Frank Apisa

No it literally is. — StreetlightX

No, it definitely isn't...as I explained.

It's mind-blowing. — Xtrix

It is indeed. And so is the reasoning Baden is using in this argument. He normally makes lots of sense. I have no idea of what kind of bug has gotten up his ass right now, but I wish he would just pull with the rest of us...or just get the hell out of the way.

Baden
9.9k
in a system which essentially will be a choice A or B?
— Frank Apisa

Only because you make it so. You're caught in the circular logic of saying you need to do what makes it necessary for you to do what you do. — Baden

In November of this year, Baden...unless something catastrophic happens, the choice for Americans will be between the nominee of the Republican party (presumably Trump) and the nominee of the Democratic Party (presumably Joe Biden)...and it is my opinion that anyone with a functioning brain should do everything possible to elect the Democratic Party nominee over the Republican Party nominee.

If you want to think I am the reason this is happening rather than that it is the result of the way things have functioned for the last 250 years...feel free to do so. If you want to think that I...or a group of us here in American...can change that between today and November...feel free to do so.

I prefer to go with sanity.

Okay?

Benkei
2.8k
↪Frank Apisa Why is it bullshit? — Benkei

Because it is...and for no other reason.

It seems to me that if you have a politically corrupt system any vote for the establishment candidates is voting in favour of corruption. Heads, you lose, tails, monied interests win.

You might as well not vote. — Benkei

Okay...then don't vote.

The difference between Trump and Biden is marginal from any perspective but the US perspective. That's because those differences are played to maximum effect in US media to give voters a feeling that they have a choice. It plays right into the identity politics of being Republican or Democratic. — Benkei

If you want to delude yourself into thinking the difference between Trump and Biden is "marginal" and not immense, have at it.

Delusions are a dime a dozen.

I've voted for a Conservative Liberal party, greens, Labour Party, animal rights party and Christian party (not in that order) due to changing personal views over time but mostly because of policy proposals I wanted to support. I don't see this flexibility with US voters; Dems think Reps are stupid and vice versa. Meanwhile, both parties serve you policy turds and you thank them for the privilege depending on which party had your loyalty.

With a parliamentary government that is possible...and even reasonable. Do you live in a country with a parliamentary government?

If so...why the hell are you judging how to vote in a system which essentially will be a choice A or B?

Learn the difference...then come back and make sense.

How do you square that with greed? Can those who profess “greed is good” (which seems to be the main economic motto of the day) ever obtain what they consider to be plenty? To me needless to say, this being how most of the 1%-ers got there.

Then there’s greed-based competition* to be top-dog winner where everyone else is a looser of the so-conceived game of life. And the end-state of this greed-based competition in which one finally obtains happiness is in fact an illusory reality: an untruth or self-deception. But it does produce a lot of losing parties out there, and correlated misery.

* Loosely understood, there are other forms of completion: for maximized knowledge, understanding, wisdom, good social standing, physical and mental health, etc. But many such forms of competition are a) often ones where one competes against one’s own perceived limitations rather than against other beings for that which is desired and b) where what is gained is then in turn often shared with others via community for the maximized benefit to oneself, as well as to others. Point being, there’s very little winner-looser dichotomy, if any, in many such alternative forms of non-greed-based completion. As one example, scientists compete to discover stuff, but when a discovery is made it doesn’t (typically?) turn the discoverer into a victorious winner and all other scientists into losers. Rather, the whole community benefits. — javra

I certainly am not saying that insuring that everyone has plenty is going to be easy selling to the people of a country such as ours...where greed seems to dominate almost to the point where it is considered inevitable.

But I do suppose it can be accomplished.

Nobody has to work anywhere near as hard as many Americans have to...in order to subsist these days. Perhaps the lock-down will teach us something about that.

Fact is, though, that we have incorporated BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of willing slaves into our workforce making all the things we need and want (machines, robots, computers)...

...yet we are all working harder than we were before the slaves were incorporated.

A family of the 1950's had one breadwinner (usually the husband) who worked one job and earned enough to provide for shelter, food, clothing, transportation, communication, entertainment, insurance, education, limited vacations, and some savings.

Now we got both the husband and wife working (sometimes more than one job each) and those needs and wants are not being adequately met.

It is so disgusting a situation...that we should be engaged in a civil war to right it.

StreetlightX
5.1k
And communism has as its core "same for everyone."
— Frank Apisa

Yeah I mean it's not like "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is one of the most famous communist slogans out there. No possible way. — StreetlightX

You seem to think there is some substantive irreconcilable difference between what I said...and the Marx quote.

There really isn't.

I am just saying that I, personally, do not care about unequal distribution AFTER everyone has plenty. If every one has plenty...everyone will have his/her needs met. Some, particularly in communist countries seem to think that "unequal" equates with the dominance of the bourgeoisie over some ill-defined lesser class. So my comment that communism has "same for everyone" is not at odds with modern considerations about communism.

Are you disputing this...or are you just being an asshole and arguing because you are getting your doors blown off so often?

StreetlightX
5.1k
↪Frank Apisa Ah there you go again with the big hitting arguments. Real intellectual-powerhouse stuff Frank, no idea how I'm going to match. — StreetlightX

You can't keep up with me...don't even try.

Instead, put some time into actually thinking.

Baden
9.9k
So, can we go back to the details of Biden's record?

Forget who will or won't vote for him. Can anyone tell me what he offers progressives? — Baden

He offers them freedom from Trump...and the damage he can do.

When I was asked a form of this question during the 2016 run-up, I answered that same way.

Now the names Gorsuch and Kavanaugh come to mind. So do the 200 federal judges confirmed so far.

StreetlightX
5.1k
It really comes down to this: those who say that not voting for Biden are voting for Trump miss the fact that it was very policies and politics championed by Biden and his ilk which got you Trump in the first place. A vote for Biden is a vote for the next Trump, and the one after that.

American electoral politics has been a ratchet mechanism for the last two generations, with each click of the wheel forestalled only by a momentary holding pattern before plunging straight back into reactionary hell again. Voting for a Trumpian catalyst is a prolongation of pain, not an anaesthetic to it. — StreetlightX

I truly wish I could give this a more dignified review, Street...but the most honest comment I can make about this involves just two words: Bull shit. In fact, I might have done it in one word (bullshit)...but using just one word would have been unnecessarily insulting.

So...

...BULL SHIT.

I didn't vote...my choice was not there.

I think the American form of capitalism is close to disgusting...and I suspect that "the American form of capitalism" is where all capitalistic economies will eventually end if given enough time to mature.

Capitalism relies on unrelenting consumerism...and it relies on the major factor of production (entrepreneurship) to maximize profit...which means labor gets fucked. That is the rule of the road.

I personally think "same for everyone" would be a terrible idea...and communism has as its core "same for everyone."

I am not even interested in a fairer distribution of wealth as most people are. I do not care if 10 people ended up with 90% of the wealth...SO LONG AS EVERYONE ELSE HAS PLENTY.

Once we get to the point where everyone has plenty (which can be obtained by first insuring that everyone has sufficient)...then how the rest gets divvied up means beans to me.

I really wish you had included a "Sometimes good...sometimes not so good" choice.

frank
4.8k
↪Frank Apisa In a democracy there's nothing to stop the people from reducing their taxes below what's needed to run the state.

It's a weakness of democracy that isny present in oligarchies or dictatorships. — frank

BINGO!

And since earliest time...TAXES have been a bugaboo for people.

I once wrote an essay that took aim at many people with whom I was in substantial agreement, except for...the "taxes" thing.

It addressed the notion of "social liberal/fiscal conservative."

My essay reduced to: So, by that you mean that you want all the things that SHOULD BE provided by (or a function of) government...but you don't want to contribute to paying for them.

Taxes are a necessity...and (a lot of people still with me will leave me here) are now too low...not too high. Yes, the rich should be paying a shit-load more than they are...but in general, taxes in America are way too low...not too high.

Not really sure what you are asking me there, Frank.

Would you do some re-working.

Baden
9.9k
Yours is junk-yard dog rhetoric with rabid overtones
— tim wood

And this is:

That comment is so fucking nuts...that anyone attempting to comment on it further than what I am saying right here, is also fucking nuts.
— Frank Apisa


But, fine, have a look at street's latest post and I'd also be happy to list sources and quotes therein that explicate why Biden is so unpalatable to much the left. Let's debate it on that basis. — Baden

Baden...keep your cool.

Biden is far from perfect...and he was low on the list of those I was hoping would win.

Early on I got in a very heated debate with my sister...because my position was that Sanders was the guy would should win. My arguments with her were filled with, "If the Democrats are going to settle for Republican lite...fuck 'em.

Of course, I live in New Jersey, where Trump would lose to Satan...so at that time I was content with, "Bernie can do it...and we at least owe our conscience an attempt."

The conservatives did that back in 1964 against a rather unpopular LBJ. The Electoral College vote ended up at 486 - 52...and we know who got the 52, because nobody ever mentions the late President Goldwater.

Things change. They did for Biden on the issues mentioned.

And right now I stick with what I said above:

Any American who votes in a way that helps Trump retain the presidency does a disservice to America and the world on a par with the people who helped bring Adolf Hitler to power...and who helped retain him in power.

There is more truth in that...than in EVERYTHING you and Streetlight have written.

frank
4.8k
Democracy is silly.
— h060tu

Some people think it's a goal. A goal is usually a state beyond what you presently have or are.

People who place democracy as a high value may be those who suffer for lack of being heard.

What is it that livers of totalitarianism need? Order?

Thoughts? Frank Apisa — frank

As opposed to totalitarian rule...I MUCH prefer a democratic society.

My problem with "democracy"...is that the freer a people are, the more likely they seem to want even MORE freedom. Ultimately people in a nation like the United States, for instance, tend toward libertarianism...and ultimately to anarchy. They end up claiming they want no more government than absolutely needed, but instead strive for no government (particularly for themselves.)

It is my opinion that society cannot function and flourish in anarchy...so I suspect that "democracy" will ultimately lead to destruction.

How to reconcile this: Beats the shit out of me.

Perhaps humanity is doomed. Maybe we humans are the "ultimate virus" infecting planet Earth...as is suggested in so many sci-fi books and movies.

Only time will tell.

jamalrob
2.2k
That comment is so fucking nuts...that anyone attempting to comment on it further than what I am saying right here, is also fucking nuts.
— Frank Apisa

:lol:

I guess I'll have to refrain from commenting to the effect that Street and Baden are right. — jamalrob

Sounds like that would be a smart move on your part, Jam.

Baden
9.9k
That comment is so fucking nuts...that anyone attempting to comment on it further than what I am saying right here, is also fucking nuts.

Comment further if you want, Baden, but I won't.
— Frank Apisa

And the specific policy positions mentioned? You agree Biden took those positions or not? — Baden

Anyone reading what he wrote...after reading the sentence I quoted...if a fool.

I am not a fool.

People like me, whether in America or elsewhere, will vote for politicians who represent what they believe in. Biden does not represent what progressives or the left believe in. Ergo, many of our ilk won't vote for him (some will, but many won't). So, if he and his supporters want more of the left's vote, he needs to give the left something of substance. The Nazi angle is not going to work just from a pragmatic viewpoint (leaving aside the absurdity of it for a moment). — Baden

"Believe in"...huh?

People like you are the reason people...

...like Voltaire said, "The best is the enemy of the good"...

...like Confucius wrote, "Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without"...

...like Shakespeare had Albany declare, “Striving to better, oft we mar what's well.”

Have you got any substantive defence against StreetlightX's statements about Biden's policy positions? It's possible to have a conversation about that. — Baden

One of the things he said was, "Biden has done more harm to the US and the world in his decades long career in politics than Trump could ever aspire to. "

That IS a statement about Biden's policy positions.

And I do have something of substance to say about it:

That comment is so fucking nuts...that anyone attempting to comment on it further than what I am saying right here, is also fucking nuts.

Comment further if you want, Baden, but I won't.

Yes to both of your comments there, Frank.

Baden
9.9k
↪Frank Apisa

People like you, not just on this forum, but across America will get Trump reelected. You are his greatest asset and are doing everything he would want you to do. For free. Congratulations. — Baden

No, Baden...people like you are the problem.

Okay...you cannot see it...and it may lead to more of Trump.

And, like you people did in 2016...you people while attempt to shirk the responsibility.

You folk do resemble Trump in that. Perhaps that is why you are doing it.

And this is just a fucking joke. Biden, who fought for bus segregation in schools? Who, as late as 2003, eulogised segregationist Strom Thurmond as those 'among his closest friends'? Biden, who let Anita Hill get shit all over in her sexual assault allegations in the Clarence hearings? Biden, who is likely a sexual predator himself and who enjoys touching and sniffing young women - in fact young girls - in public? Biden, who supported the Iraq War unconditionally? Biden, whose support of and engineering of Clinton's Crime Bill led the US to have among the highest rates of incarceration in the world? Biden, who supported DOMA? Biden, who enthusiastically stripped bankruptcy protections from private student loans and helped entrench and expand the sprawling the American debt state? Biden, who has, throughout his career, argued for - and attained - cuts to social security? Biden, who was at Obama's right hand as he laid waste to the Middle East, bailed out Wall Street, deported hundreds and thousands of migrants, and continued a drone war which murdered hundreds of civilians?

Biden has done more harm to the US and the world in his decades long career in politics than Trump could ever aspire to. Trump is a self-interested illiterate wanker doing the bidding of his Republican overloads. Biden's a true fucking believer - he only happened to do it with a bit of charisma, which even now he's lost to the creeping onset of dementia. Biden has fought all his life to make the world a worse place to live in for everyone, and he's been incredibly successful in doing so. For the student-debt problem alone, Biden deserves to be disembowled in public by a pack of hungry rats. — StreetlightX

The unique fauna of Oz have apparently eaten your brain.

Nothing of any worth will come from your attempts to use it.

Baden
9.9k
↪Frank Apisa

By saying things like this, you are guaranteed to alienate progressives and independents, who you need to win. So, if your goal with your posts on this site is to do everything possible to get Trump reelected, you're doing a fanatic job. — Baden

If you want to think that is what's happening...that you actually care about how people react to posts on an obscure, not especially active Internet forum...

...you might want to change your position rather than commenting on the efficacy of the content of others.