The difference between Trump and Biden is marginal from any perspective but the US perspective. — Benkei

In many ways, both those "marginal differences" in the most powerful country on Earth actually do make a difference. Although in this case, it's not always so marginal. Again I come back to climate change: check out the approaches and decide who's more damaging. One wants to take small steps towards renewable energy (not nearly enough); one says it's a Chinese hoax and wants to prop up the coal industry.

Still "marginal"?

Only because you make it so. You're caught in the circular logic of saying you need to do what makes it necessary for you to do what you did. — Baden

No, he's being realistic. That's the unfortunate choice -- it'll be Biden or Trump. That's A or B. What requires delusion is voting for Donald Trump again, which is what you're advocating. Third party and no vote is a vote for Trump. That's simple arithmetic.

If you cared more about the real world and getting real progressive policies through, you wouldn't be advocating for revenge, as if the DNC will hear you loud and clear. People were saying exactly the same thing in 2016. I'm sure the last 3 years has been great for you, but those of us who care about the future would have preferred an administration we could actually pressure for more and more sensible policies rather than have to spend time fighting to keep the measly ones we still have.

I'm advocating for progressives to say this to the Dems:

"Give us what we want or fuck off."

It's clear, simple, and the only thing that has a hope of getting the weasels in the DNC to take on significant progressive policies.

I'm advocating for progressives to say this to the Dems:

"Give us what we want or fuck off." — Baden

I would love to do that more than anyone. There's no proof that that works, and it was tried in 2016. We simply can't afford to do it again, because it really does matter who's in office. It doesn't mean letting the DNC off the hook for what they've done -- far from it.

It's clear, simple, and the only thing that has a hope of getting the weasels in the DNC to take on significant progressive policies. — Baden

OK, I just disagree with this I guess. Where is the evidence this is true? What happened in 2016 changed very little -- what changed was the continued fight of Bernie Sanders supporters and the offshoots of that campaign, in advocating for $15 minimum wage, Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, etc. etc. at the local and state level. Which is where all progress happens, in reality.

Bernie understands all of this too. It's not because he's a "sell out," it's because he understands the urgency of removing Trump, given this time in history.

and it was tried in 2016 — Xtrix

Yes, and in 2016 the Dems didn't listen because they were sure Hillary would win. They ain't so sure now, I can tell you. And: Never ever give something away for free that could be used as leverage to get something in return.

Yes, and in 2016 the Dems didn't listen because they were sure Hillary would win. They ain't so sure now, I can tell you. — Baden

No, electing Trump was tried in 2016. That actually happened, in no small degree thanks to those who sat out or voted third party (or even for Trump, in roughly 8% of Sanders supporters). So what was the outcome? Three years of Trump's destructive policies, and no effect on the DNC.

And you want to try it again.

And: Never ever give something away for free that could be used as leverage to get something in return. — Baden

Electing Biden is by no means "free." It will come at a very major cost indeed.

Or we help elect Trump and have to spend the next four years defending the policies that he hasn't yet destroyed, while losing the courts to a generation of conservative judges.

Not a hard choice.

I tell you what's not a hard choice, not bending the knee now when you've got nothing. At the very least, withdraw your support and act like you want something. You can always still vote for the useless git in the end. You are doing the only thing that will guarantee the DNC will completely ignore progressive priorities.

Electing Trump isn't holding them accountable. — Xtrix

Actually that's exactly what it is and no amount of double-speak will change that fact. Elections are quite literally mechanisms of accountability, and if you have pretend that that isn't the case just to try and make a point, you've lost the rhetorical plot. Confidently asserting the literal opposite of the case doesn't make it true. Maybe you've learnt one too many lessons from Trump. Or the DNC for that matter. Next you'll be telling me war is peace and that triangles are actually circles.

He's already made concessions. I mentioned some already. Is it more or less "delusional" than believing Trump will be swayed by pressure? — Xtrix

Food scraps for electoral hostages, which you're begging to remain. It's a kind of Stockholm syndrome - falling in love with your hostage taker because they've let you pee in the toilet that one time.

That actually happened, in no small degree thanks to those who sat out or voted third party — Xtrix

Electoral gaslighting - "look what you made me do". DNC lackey.

No wonder America's so fucked up - a place where voters get blamed for the inadequacies of parties, and where people can convince themselves that elections aren't a question of accountability. Wild.

There's no argument here. Which is sad, because I explicitly asked for one. You then just assume I don't know the difference between the US and Dutch system. I thought you were over 80? Where's the calm and time that's supposed to come with that age and actually take the time to explain it?



See, the problem is you think this is a difference of persons. It's not. I already explained the power in the USA is held by the respective parties. The "great" differences you see, are a reflection of which party is bought by which interests. It's not meaningful to say "they're both corrupt but he's destroying the environment". So you'll save the environment by losing your privacy. What kind of choice is that?

I totally get that you feel you have to make a choice but to think you're a moral actor with agency in this story is what I think is delusional. It's like having a gun to your head with someone demanding you shoot someone or they will shoot two persons. Morally, it makes no difference what you choose as the choosing has already been done by the person with the gun. In this analogy your two parties are holding a gun. You don't have actual choices only the illusion of one.

The upside to Trump and even 4 more years of Trump, is that the Western automatic acquiescence to US interests is waning as it should be. Respect has to be earned instead of assumed. Voting a senile old bat because he isn't Trump isn't going to change that.

I'll vote for creepy uncle Joe if he forgives student loans. Why not?

Baden
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in a system which essentially will be a choice A or B?
— Frank Apisa

Only because you make it so. You're caught in the circular logic of saying you need to do what makes it necessary for you to do what you do. — Baden

In November of this year, Baden...unless something catastrophic happens, the choice for Americans will be between the nominee of the Republican party (presumably Trump) and the nominee of the Democratic Party (presumably Joe Biden)...and it is my opinion that anyone with a functioning brain should do everything possible to elect the Democratic Party nominee over the Republican Party nominee.

If you want to think I am the reason this is happening rather than that it is the result of the way things have functioned for the last 250 years...feel free to do so. If you want to think that I...or a group of us here in American...can change that between today and November...feel free to do so.

I prefer to go with sanity.

Okay?

It's mind-blowing. — Xtrix

It is indeed. And so is the reasoning Baden is using in this argument. He normally makes lots of sense. I have no idea of what kind of bug has gotten up his ass right now, but I wish he would just pull with the rest of us...or just get the hell out of the way.

I tell you what's not a hard choice, not bending the knee now when you've got nothing. At the very least, withdraw your support and act like you want something. — Baden

Sure. Who's saying otherwise? We're talking about actually voting, not rolling over to the DNC.

Electing Trump isn't holding them accountable.
— Xtrix

Actually that's exactly what it is and no amount of double-speak will change that fact. — StreetlightX

Wonderful. It worked well last time, didn't it?

This is true only for those who believe pushing a button every four years it the most important thing we can do. It isn't. This unfortunate choice should take us a few minutes -- you vote against the worst, case closed. Then you continue pushing for progressive policies, which is the only way things change. Electing Trump makes any chance of these policies happening impossible.

But it makes some of us believe we're really doing something, I guess. I have the unfortunate experience of living in the real world, though. But continue with your super-smart, dime-a-dozen analyses from a different country.

That actually happened, in no small degree thanks to those who sat out or voted third party
— Xtrix

Electoral gaslighting - "look what you made me do". DNC lackey. — StreetlightX

Lol.

It's just a fact, actually: voting third party or sitting out helped elect Trump. That's not "gaslighting," and quite apart from blaming people. I understand their frustrations. I mentioned Bernie supporters voting for Trump in 2016 (roughly 1 in 10, I believe) -- that helped as well.

If you're too dense not to acknowledge these simple facts, that's your business.

See, the problem is you think this is a difference of persons. It's not. I already explained the power in the USA is held by the respective parties. — Benkei

Everyone knows both parties are beholden to corporate interests. That goes without saying. What you continually ignore is the reality of differences between the two factions of the business party ( Democrats and Republicans), differences which actually do matter. I mentioned an important one: climate change policy. One party denies it's happening, the other wants to take baby steps forward (but not enough). Forget which is more dangerous -- just acknowledge the difference. Then ask who'd be more willing to implement better policies (Trump wants to gut CO2 and methane emisssion regulations remember).

The details matter. It's very easy to just say "It's all the same" -- and maybe allows you to feel satisfied in your superior knowledge of politics -- but doing a little work helps come out of this simplistic Nickelodeon analysis.

It's not meaningful to say "they're both corrupt but he's destroying the environment". So you'll save the environment by losing your privacy. What kind of choice is that? — Benkei

This is exactly what I mean. So assuming that's true (which I don't) -- losing our privacy is equally as important as our species dying off? Fine, then you still vote for Biden -- why? Because Trump will both destroy the environment AND we lose our privacy.

We're talking about actually voting, not rolling over to the DNC. — Xtrix

Ah yes, not rolling over to the DNC by ... doing exactly what the DNC wants. I suppose this is much like how voting is not a matter of accountability. Did you know the color black is actually the color white? Nah, you're probably too dense to acknowledge this simple fact.

You offer literal contradictions and expect to be taken seriously. What a joke.

Wonderful. It worked well last time, didn't it? — Xtrix

Yes, much like how the mobilization of hunderds and thousands of people worked so well to gain Bernie the nomination hey? This is what you don't get: the game is rigged, and the DNC don't give a shit about your activism, and never have and never will, because you'll vote for them anyway. You're a sucker and everyone but you knows it.

We're talking about actually voting, not rolling over to the DNC.
— Xtrix

Ah yes, not rolling over to the DNC by ... doing exactly what the DNC wants. — StreetlightX

Okay bud, you're right. Your expert adolescent analysis is too overwhelming. Let's teach those DNC guys a lesson they'll never forget and elect TRUMP again! That's the ticket! Worked wonders in 2016 after all. Eventually they'll understand and change. Fingers crossed!

Wonderful. It worked well last time, didn't it?
— Xtrix

Yes, much like how the mobilization of hunderds and thousands of people worked so well to gain Bernie the nomination hey? — StreetlightX

You're too stupid to understand, but mobilizing hundreds of thousands of people is exactly what has changed the DNC, regardless of their robbing Bernie from the nomination. But since understanding this requires details and more than a Twitter-length response, I'll just skip it.

Anyone else interested, let me know.

has changed the DNC — Xtrix

Yes I can see how the DNC changed mightily by literally nominating the next in line from the Obama administration. The discontinuity is jarring! Change galore.

God they must love people like you.

God they must love people like you. — StreetlightX

Yeah, I'm awful I agree. Now by all means go get Trump elected again.

Frank was reduced to babbling insults and this guy reduced to, well, the same.

It's like people who support Biden are totally incapable of coherent argumentation.

Which makes sense. There's no there there.

Frank was reduced to babbling insults and this guy reduced to, well, the same.

It's like people who support Biden are totally incapable of coherent argumentation.

Which makes sense. There's no there there. — StreetlightX

Yeah, that's the reason. :)

Glad to be in agreement :smile:

DNC lackey. — StreetlightX

Maybe you've learnt one too many lessons from Trump. — StreetlightX

You offer literal contradictions and expect to be taken seriously. What a joke. — StreetlightX

You're a sucker and everyone but you knows it. — StreetlightX

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Frank was reduced to babbling insults — StreetlightX

Hmmm...

Stahp.

Just having fun. Dickless means well, I'm sure. But I have low tolerance for people who outright refuse to learn.

Stahp means stahp. You've been warned. Don't refuse moderation.

(Also, an answer to the eternal question, the moderators moderate the moderators)