he quickly censored them, — tim wood

Oh I didn't censor them [####].

It's exactly analogous. And I censored street's comments, not him. Anyway, please just stop it now. We're talking about Biden's record here. Accusations or provocations like that will be deleted.

Yeah, you and "Big Money Hustla" make strong points.

Thanks, Xtrix!

So, can we go back to the details of Biden's record?

Forget who will or won't vote for him. Can anyone tell me what he offers progressives?

Yeah I also want to know what to make of him enabling the indebting of an entire generation and sniffing young girls at every opportunity!

Oh I didn't censor them, [####]. — StreetlightX

It's exactly analogous. And I censored street's comments, not him. Anyway, please just stop it now. We're talking about Biden's record here. Accusations or provocations like that will be deleted. — Baden

I'm corrected, and please do. I made clear above my purpose here. In sum, to my way of thinking, if you're going to argue, argue. Perhaps Baden will take on ranting. I don't envy him that task. But representing some of the hot spots of American political life as they have been represented here is just plain inaccurate. And within the inaccuracy, deceptive.

Yeah just a few "hot spots of American life" like incarcerating blacks at record rates and supporting illegal, region-runing wars. Usual American stuff.

Forget who will or won't vote for him. Can anyone tell me what he offers progressives? — Baden

He's already agreed to a $15 minimum wage, thanks to trying to court Bernie voters. He's much more open to progressive environmental policies than Trump, which is crucial. He's also rather empty as a candidate and thus, as I mentioned before (and which people like you always ignore), he will be much more easily pressured than a Trump presidency, who will continue to take us backward.

That's the choice progressives have. No one is saying they like Biden, no one is saying they condone rape, no one is saying the Democrats are wonderful, etc etc.

Yeah just a few "hot spots of American life" like incarcerating blacks at record rates and supporting illegal, region-runing wars. Usual American stuff. — StreetlightX

Biden is a terrible candidate? Amazing -- you've figured this all out already. Tell us more.

Yeah no one is saying much of anything because there's nothing to say. Just give the DNC carte blanche and acquiesce in the obsolescence of what minimal democracy you have.

And then believe - against all rationality - that they might actually give progressive causes anything at all when the bone they threw was a segregationist rapist warmonger as a consolation prize.

So, can we go back to the details of Biden's record?
Forget who will or won't vote for him. Can anyone tell me what he offers progressives? — Baden

You don't seem to get it. In America it's general election time. Time to choose. My own view and hope concerning Biden is that he will help re-establish the professionalism of the people who actually make the US government work, namely the - our - civil service. And this in response to Trump's clawing at it. Repairing Trump's damage is going to be a big job over the next four years (assuming Biden is elected). And I expect him to be pro-science. And I expect that the big problems we all face he will not handle as Trump might, though lying nonsense. It' a sad commentary, but what he offers to progressives is simply and at least the possibility of rational and reasonable discussion - which at the moment does not exist.

Just give the DNC carte blanche and acquiesce in the obsolescence of what minimal democracy you have. — StreetlightX

Let me make it as simple as I can for you:

It's precisely that we want to have an administration we can influence (we progressives), thus being the exact OPPOSITE of "carte blanche." We want to either destroy or take over the DNC, as Bernie has started to do.

Thus we need to push for the election of this senile neoliberal (alleged) rapist. It's a terrible choice, but that's the system -- what's the alternative? The alternative is Trump, where we have 0 say -- nothing. No chance of any policies being adopted, and will in fact have to fight to not have the polices we like completely gutted. We watch on as he appoints more judges to the appellate courts and the Supreme Court (for lifetime tenor).

If you and Baden still refuse to acknowledge this point, there's no sense pretending to be rational. Let's just behave like it's Twitter.

we want to have an administration we can influence — Xtrix

But you have to be delusional to think that this is what Biden will enable. Why in the world would the DNC offer anything when the apoplexia of "imagine the other guy" causes people to fall in line no matter how terrible the line is? (case in point: this thread). Give them this and they will browbeat you with it by offering a quantum up from the political minima, forever. If you're not willing to hold them accountable now, exactly when? Tomorrow, when the Republican party has a come-to-Jesus moment? When the cows come home, and the DNC know this; you, apparently, do not.

Why in the world would the DNC offer anything when the apoplexia of "imagine the other guy" causes people to fall in line no matter how terrible the line is? (case in point: this thread). — StreetlightX

Yes, as I've said before, nobody pays for a free hamburger. There is zero incentive for the DNC to do anything for progressives unless the left desert them en masse now. Therefore, that's what they should do, leaving two possible outcomes.

1) Dems come to their senses and change their policies.
2) Dems lose and realize they're going to have to come to their senses and change their policies if they ever want to get their guy elected again.

Alternative: They win and never come to their senses and change their policies.

StreetlightX
5.1k
It really comes down to this: those who say that not voting for Biden are voting for Trump miss the fact that it was very policies and politics championed by Biden and his ilk which got you Trump in the first place. A vote for Biden is a vote for the next Trump, and the one after that.

American electoral politics has been a ratchet mechanism for the last two generations, with each click of the wheel forestalled only by a momentary holding pattern before plunging straight back into reactionary hell again. Voting for a Trumpian catalyst is a prolongation of pain, not an anaesthetic to it. — StreetlightX

I truly wish I could give this a more dignified review, Street...but the most honest comment I can make about this involves just two words: Bull shit. In fact, I might have done it in one word (bullshit)...but using just one word would have been unnecessarily insulting.

So...

...BULL SHIT.

Ah there you go again with the big hitting arguments. Real intellectual-powerhouse stuff Frank, no idea how I'm going to match. Maybe next time you can do an angry interpretive dance or something given your inability to conjure words.

Baden
9.9k
So, can we go back to the details of Biden's record?

Forget who will or won't vote for him. Can anyone tell me what he offers progressives? — Baden

He offers them freedom from Trump...and the damage he can do.

When I was asked a form of this question during the 2016 run-up, I answered that same way.

Now the names Gorsuch and Kavanaugh come to mind. So do the 200 federal judges confirmed so far.

StreetlightX
5.1k
↪Frank Apisa Ah there you go again with the big hitting arguments. Real intellectual-powerhouse stuff Frank, no idea how I'm going to match. — StreetlightX

You can't keep up with me...don't even try.

Instead, put some time into actually thinking.

:lol:

Yes, as I've said before, nobody pays for a free hamburger. — Baden

But if you OrGaNiZe and be an AcTiVisT they will name a National Burger Day (after a woman chef) and Trump wouldn't do that! ha! Checkmate commie scum.

Why is it bullshit? It seems to me that if you have a politically corrupt system any vote for the establishment candidates is voting in favour of corruption. Heads, you lose, tails, monied interests win.

You might as well not vote.

The difference between Trump and Biden is marginal from any perspective but the US perspective. That's because those differences are played to maximum effect in US media to give voters a feeling that they have a choice. It plays right into the identity politics of being Republican or Democratic.

I've voted for a Conservative Liberal party, greens, Labour Party, animal rights party and Christian party (not in that order) due to changing personal views over time but mostly because of policy proposals I wanted to support. I don't see this flexibility with US voters; Dems think Reps are stupid and vice versa. Meanwhile, both parties serve you policy turds and you thank them for the privilege depending on which party had your loyalty.

You guys should go sailing.

Benkei
2.8k
↪Frank Apisa Why is it bullshit? — Benkei

Because it is...and for no other reason.

It seems to me that if you have a politically corrupt system any vote for the establishment candidates is voting in favour of corruption. Heads, you lose, tails, monied interests win.

You might as well not vote. — Benkei

Okay...then don't vote.

The difference between Trump and Biden is marginal from any perspective but the US perspective. That's because those differences are played to maximum effect in US media to give voters a feeling that they have a choice. It plays right into the identity politics of being Republican or Democratic. — Benkei

If you want to delude yourself into thinking the difference between Trump and Biden is "marginal" and not immense, have at it.

Delusions are a dime a dozen.

I've voted for a Conservative Liberal party, greens, Labour Party, animal rights party and Christian party (not in that order) due to changing personal views over time but mostly because of policy proposals I wanted to support. I don't see this flexibility with US voters; Dems think Reps are stupid and vice versa. Meanwhile, both parties serve you policy turds and you thank them for the privilege depending on which party had your loyalty.

With a parliamentary government that is possible...and even reasonable. Do you live in a country with a parliamentary government?

If so...why the hell are you judging how to vote in a system which essentially will be a choice A or B?

Learn the difference...then come back and make sense.

But you have to be delusional to think that this is what Biden will enable. — StreetlightX

He's already made concessions. I mentioned some already. Is it more or less "delusional" than believing Trump will be swayed by pressure?

If you're not willing to hold them accountable now, exactly when? — StreetlightX

Electing Trump isn't holding them accountable. You hold them accountable as you've always have -- not simply by throwing a vote away every four years because it makes you feel better, but by the hard work of organizing and pressuring administrative leadership every day, week after week. That's the only hope.

Ask yourself how the democratic party has changed so far. Was it by electing Trump in 2016? No. It was Bernie Sanders and his campaign, which organized millions of people and resulted in the creation of progressive programs (like the Green New Deal) and which continued fighting for the last four years.

You also completely underestimate how dire the straits are right now for the environment, and the impact Trump will have with his band of oil executives running the EPA. This is no time to play games because we're angry Bernie lost.

in a system which essentially will be a choice A or B? — Frank Apisa

Only because you make it so. You're caught in the circular logic of saying you need to do what makes it necessary for you to do what you do.

1) Dems come to their senses and change their policies.
2) Dems lose and realize they're going to have to come to their senses and change their policies if they ever want to get their guy elected again.

Alternative: They win and never come to their senses and change their policies. — Baden

This is your reasoning?

Or 3: progressives elect Biden and continue to hold his feet to the flame -- something which is totally impossible with a Trump administration. This is the option that matters, not throwing a vote away which the DNC could just as easily interpret as they wish (like they did in 2016). The real work is in activism every day, not in playing games every four years.

Let them impeach Biden if it becomes clear he's guilty of rape or going senile. Who cares. It's not about the person, it's about the real world and the real chances of effecting change.

With Trump, there's zero chance -- none.

Now the names Gorsuch and Kavanaugh come to mind. So do the 200 federal judges confirmed so far. — Frank Apisa

Or the environmental regulations being destroyed, the Paris Accords being scrapped, the climate change denial of the former oil lobbyists now running the EPA, etc.

At a time when scientists are telling us we have very little time to waste in tacking climate change, we're here having to argue not to throw votes away? And after 2016, too -- in which their "strategy" succeeded. (So much for the DNC learning the error of their ways.)

It's mind-blowing.

Yes, as I've said before, nobody pays for a free hamburger.
— Baden

But if you OrGaNiZe and be an AcTiVisT they will name a National Burger Day (after a woman chef) and Trump wouldn't do that! — StreetlightX

Right, so let's throw votes away and re-elect Trump. Because THAT'S what changed the DNC in 2016, of course -- not this silly "organizing and activism" (ridiculed like a teenager on Twitter), which is a waste of time.

What a buffoon. Like I have said repeatedly to you: you'll fit in better with Twitter.

The difference between Trump and Biden is marginal from any perspective but the US perspective. — Benkei

Sweet Jesus! Do you mean you cannot tell the difference? And do you mean that because you cannot tell the difference there is no difference? C'mon!

And I've yet to see anyone here except an American acknowledge the plain facts of life. This election is (presumably going to be) about one guy or the other. And that's it. Do you have qualms or complaints about either or both? Join the line, but at this point it's largely a waste of time.