• The Mashed is The Potato
    That's not how I interpret it. "Kant draws a line in the sand and tells us it's impossible to cross because" it's impossible in principle to see the other side.Janus

    And yet Kant crosses it by conceptualizing and talking about noumena and setting them into causal relation with phenomena.

    Again, I see this differently. Of course the distinction between phenomenon and noumenon is "inside the box"; along with everything else that is thinkable, and that is Kant's very point. The only difference with Hegel is that he doesn't want anything to be outside the box ( "The Rational is the Real"), and that is why he is referred to as an "Absolute Idealist".Janus

    Suppose I draw a line down the middle of a page and mark one side as "knowable" and the other as "unknowable". Then I start drawing things on both sides of the divide. If you're smart, you're going to question the legitimacy of my drawing anything over on the "unknowable" side of the paper. After all, if that whole side represents the unknowable, shouldn't we leave it blank?

    What I am arguing is that Kant's claims about the noumena - namely, that they exist and that they are the cause of phenomena - is analogous to drawing on the unknowable side of the page. In fact, his entire theory of transcendental subjectivity falls onto that side of the page, since none of it can be derived from the content of sense intuition. The only response that Kant can make at this point (by his own lights) is that he must posit these things due to the regulative demands of reason. But this is a very weak reply given the pains he takes to critique these very types of claims.

    In other words, Kant's own theory of transcendental subjectivity implies that his theory of transcendental subjectivity is unknowable. The transcendental subject is itself a noumenon. But then his entire theory of knowledge does not count as knowledge, which also implies that he doesn't know (and can't know) that noumena are unknowable, which is exactly what he does claim to know.

    Thus, Kant contradicts himself.

    The human mind in all cultures has grappled with the question of what the ultimate or absolute nature of things is.Janus

    I don't deny this.

    In the East it had been long acknowledged that the absolute cannot be known by means of rational thought.Janus

    Yes, I'll grant that mysticism has a long pedigree in both the eastern and western traditions. I'm not opposed to mysticism per se, but I am opposed to the particular way in which Kant draws the line between knowledge and belief. I think it is self-defeating for the reasons given above. Likewise, I'm not convinced that the Kantian approach is a "natural" representative for this tradition, though I'm willing to grant that mysticism more generally is a "natural" aspect of human thought and expression.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    OK, but doesn't the same as what you say here apply to speaking of 'things in themselves'?Janus

    Yes, it does. This doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about things-in-themselves. It means that we shouldn't talk about them in the way that Kant does (e.g. unknowable), because it's incoherent. Kant draws a line in the sand and tells us it's impossible to cross because he's seen the other side!

    Hegel pointed out the distinction between phenomenon and noumenon is itself a distinction of the understanding (otherwise it would be unthinkable) and, as such, the noumenon must logically be "inside the box", along with everything else that is thinkable. But this means everything is inside the box, which basically makes the distinction (as Kant understood it) meaningless. As Hegel writes in the Phenomenology of Spirit:

    the difference between the in-itself and the for-itself is already present in the very fact that consciousness knows an object at all. Something is to it the in-itself, but the knowledge or the being of the object for consciousness is to it still another moment. — Hegel PoS

    The distinction between what things are in themselves and what they are for consciousness must itself be something to consciousness. I don't subscribe to Hegel's metaphysics, but I think he nailed Kant pretty well on this particular topic.

    I can excuse Kant for this because it seems natural to think that anything that appears to us must also exist "in itself" in some unknowable way.Janus

    I don't think it's really that natural. It's certainly not how most ordinary people seem to think about it. Ancient and medieval philosophers didn't either (with a very few exceptions), nor did many who came after Kant.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    Sorry, I seem to have overlooked the bottom half of your post. Kant could posit unknowable causation "in-itself", but he'd be in the same bind, illicitly using an equivocal concept (and one that necessarily has no content!) in an analogical way.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    Hi Janus, I agree that in the particular passage I quoted Kant does not posit noumena as the cause of phenomena, but he does do this on other occasions. Consider the following:

    The understanding accordingly bounds sensibility without thereby expanding its own field, and in warning sensibility not to presume to reach for things in themselves but solely for appearances it thinks of an object in itself, but only as a transcendental object, which is the cause of appearance (thus not itself appearance), and that cannot be thought of either as magnitude or as reality or as substance, etc. (since these concepts always require sensible forms in which they determine an object); it therefore remains completely unknown whether such an object is to be encountered within or without us, whether it would be canceled out along with sensibility or whether it would remain even if we took sensibility away. If we want to call this object a noumenon because the representation of it is nothing sensible, we are free to do so. (A288) — Kant CPR

    The non-sensible cause of these representations is entirely unknown to us, and therefore we cannot intuit it as an object; for such an object would have to be represented neither in space nor in time (as mere conditions of our sensible representation), without which conditions we cannot think any intuition.(A494) — Kant CPR

    Other similar passages can be found where Kant talks about things in themselves "causing" or "affecting" things. So this all begs the question of what licenses Kant to talk about causation or affectation with regards to the relationship between noumena and phenomena given that causation is one of the categories and, as such, does not apply to anything outside of sense representations.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    You've glowingly approved theorem's caricature of idealists as self-important, while saying things like 'It's time for a new breed of philosophers to throw off the chains, escape the scourge' etc.csalisbury

    My caricature was intended to be tongue in cheek, by the way. No offense intended to you or others on the forum.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    My understanding is that Hegel rejected the ding an sich as an 'mind-independent thing', because he saw it as another idea within consciousness, and nothing beyond that. I am not sure if you mean to claim that Hegel also rejected it on account of an alleged misapplication of the concept of causality. I would need to see textual evidence of that.Janus

    No, I don't think Hegel brought up the point on causality, though I believe that many of Kant's contemporaries did. I know some modern commentators have tried to defend Kant by claiming that he employed a "regulative" notion of causality or the principle of sufficient reason. I don't know if that defense succeeds, but I suppose it's one possible response.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    They either have to implausibly deny that they exist, or twist the meaning of what's being said beyond good sense.S

    Exactly. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that "plausibility" and "good sense" are all you have to fall back on in your war against the idealists. But that won't bother the idealist one bit because they know that sometimes what seems plausible or sensible to the majority is nothing more than ignorance. You see, the idealist is one of an enlightened few and has seen through the smokescreen of naive realism and has grasped the Truth!

    Besides, there's all sorts of ways to get around these kinds of objections. We could posit God, the World Spirit, the Absolute, the Will or anything else we can dream up to account for the fact that things continue to exist even when you and I are not experiencing them.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    it also follows naturally from the concept of an appearance in general that something must correspond to it which is not in itself appearance, for appearance can be nothing for itself and outside of our kind of representation; thus, if there is not to be a constant circle, the word "appearance" must already indicate a relation to something the immediate representation of which is, to be sure, sensible, but which in itself, without this constitution of our sensibility (on which the form of our intuition is grounded), must be something, i.e., an object independent of sensibility. Now from this arises the concept of a noumenon, which, however, is not at all positive and does not signify a determinate cognition of something in general, in which I abstract from all form of sensible intuition. (A251–2) — Kant CPR
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    Look, if you guys know of a place where Kant specifically argues his concept of representation, then fine. I'm well aware that Kant presented lot's of arguments for his positions, but to my knowledge he simply assumes that representation contains essentially nothing of what it represents (hence the unknowability noumena).

    My original point was that despite all of Kant's subtlety much of his system rests on a dubious concept of representation that he inherited from Locke. This is in contrast to the ancient and medieval conception of representation in which the mind is understood as receiving and abstracting the very form of the object of perception. In later medeival thought this was understood to occur through the action of signs (an idea subsequently developed by C. S. Peirce) which "transparently" represent the object to the mind.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    He did argue that insofar as sensible intuitions are appearances they must correspond to something else which they are appearances of. This he calls noumena. From there he simply asserts that noumena exist outside the bounds of the sensibility and posits them as the "non-sensible cause" of sensible representations. But this is an illicit move and is incoherent, as Hegel later demonstrated. Incoherent because he attempts to conceptualize that which by his own lights cannot be represented, and illicit because he applies the concept of causality outside of it's applicable bounds.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    Locke famously maintained that the direct objects of knowledge were ideas, and that ideas were representations of the so-called primary qualities of external objects. Lockean sensation was therefore "opaque" in the sense that external objects are hidden behind a veil of ideas which merely "represent" them. The mind has direct access only to these ideas, not to the objects themselves, although for Locke these ideas do inherit a "resemblance" to the real structure of the objects themselves.

    To my knowledge Kant appropriated this concept of representation from Locke and ultimately made the understanding responsible for contributing even the "formal" content of these ideas via the application of concepts, thereby severing mind from object to an even greater degree. He then incoherently argued that, due to causality, we could still know that external objects exist despite the fact that we can't know anything about what they are like, apparently forgetting that causality was just another one of the categories applied by the understanding and, therefore by his own lights, not applicable to the transcendental context.

    So, while it's true that Kant made arguments for his positions, to my knowledge he simply took the Lockean conception of "opaque" representation for granted and proceeded to make it even more opaque.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    But the proper use of the gem, imo, is to show us that whatever there is, beyond our thought and experience, it is confused to think of it as something that's basically like how we experience the apple, only unexperiencedcsalisbury

    Is it though? Sure, there's much to be learned from exploring the arguments for idealism. I'd even be
    willing to say that it's a right-of-passage for anyone who wants to take philosophy seriously in the modern/postmodern world. There's no doubt that contemplating idealism can result in critical self-reflection and epistemological humility. And yet, looking at the way most idealists argue their position, I'm not sure that it reliably produces the desired outcome.

    As far as I can tell, many idealists end up at something almost indistinguishable from naive realism. Everything is basically exactly as we already know/experience it to be (except for errors, hallucinations, etc), it's just that, contrary to what everyone thought they knew, everything exists mind-dependently. Are we really to understand that this is the epitome of modern wisdom?

    Sure, transcendental idealists are ostensibly more sophisticated than that, but are they really? For all Kant's subtlety, his entire philosophy is premised on the idea that all mental content, whether sensual or conceptual, is utterly disjoint from whatever might be "out there". The sensibility represents the world opaquely rather than transparently. The understanding imposes form rather than receiving it. It's not argued, it's assumed. Modern philosophy since Locke simply takes it for granted, while Kant (and his followers) merely continue the tradition.
  • The Mashed is The Potato
    Much as I agree with you, you're never going to win this argument. For the idealist, to be is to be an object of experience. Arguing about the nature of oranges won't get you anywhere, because the sophisticated idealist is happy to grant that oranges are physical objects. It's just that all physical objects also happen to be objects of experience!

    There's no way to refute this, not empirically, not philosophically, not logically. It might be fun to discuss at first, but once the novelty wears off it's better to just shake your head and ignore it.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    Sorry, Terrapin. We've gone as far as we can go. Thanks for chatting.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    Yeah, they are. What they have in common with brain states is that they're identical to them. That seems painfully obvious to me.Terrapin Station

    I deny that they are identical by pointing out that they share nothing in common and you retort by re-asserting that they are identical. Nice one!

    Look, brains are wet, solid, made of neurons, weigh about 3 pounds on average, have a volume of about 1450 cubic centimeters on average, etc. Thoughts, feelings, sensations and values literally have none of those properties and it is blindingly obvious that that they are not even the kinds of things that could have those properties. If you can't see that, then I think we'll have to end the conversation here.

    So just in case someone argues that x is not real, then x needs to be explained?Terrapin Station

    No, not always. Look, if the question "what is the nature of change?" holds no interest for you, or makes no sense to you, then fine. I'm not going to try to convince you that it's a question worth pursuing.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    Those are brain states. Brain states are measurable.Terrapin Station

    No, they're not. That should be painfully obvious from the fact that they have literally nothing in common with brain states.

    Why would you think you need to explain change, anyway, by the way?Terrapin Station

    Because some people argue that change is not real, while others argue that permanence is not real.

    If there were a lack of change, would that need to be explained?Terrapin Station

    I have no idea.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    How would there be a property that's not empirically measurable (whether it's been measured yet or not)?Terrapin Station

    What do you mean "how"? Non-measurable properties inhere in substances the same way that measurable properties do. They're just aren't measurable. Examples would include phenomenal, intentional and normative properties.

    But I wasn't actually talking about properties, I was talking about entities like prime matter and substantial form which do not have properties and do not exist in and of themselves. They exist only as metaphysical components of material substances and are postulated in order to explain change, identity, individuation, properties, powers, etc. You can deny their existence if you want, but you can't appeal to lack of empirical evidence without both begging the question and making a category mistake.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    Theyd have properties, right?Terrapin Station

    They have characteristics, yes, but not empirically measurable properties.

    What is it with there being so many Aristotelians on this board? Both "prime matter" and "substantial form" are nonsense, as is most Aristotle.Terrapin Station

    Yawn. More assertions and ad homs.

    I'm all done here.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    If they exist, then empirical evidence would be available for them--even if we haven't discovered it yet.Terrapin Station

    No it wouldn't. You're just begging the question.

    At any rate, what would you take to be an example of this?Terrapin Station

    Prime matter and substantial form.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    It's a mistake to expect empirical evidence of existents?Terrapin Station

    No. In metaphysics, sometimes non-empirical entities are postulated because the denial of their existence leads to absurdities. It's a mistake to ask for empirical evidence for those.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    I don't think it needs to be explained.Terrapin Station

    Okie dokie.

    At any rate, there's no way I'd get into a "Does this work/count as an explanation" discussion without you first giving your general criteria for explanations.Terrapin Station

    Nah, I'll pass. I'm more interested in discussing the topic in the OP.

    You'd have to make most of those terms not just gobbledygook first.Terrapin Station

    Those are all standard topics of metaphysics.

    The only reason we need is that there's zero evidence of extramental principles, or extramental abstracts period. That's not a category mistake. If something exists, there's evidence available of it.Terrapin Station

    No sorry, it's a category mistake to expect empirical evidence for metaphysical entities.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    Sure, that's fine. So you accept the reality of possibility as "a state of not being impossible given contingent facts", but you deny the reality of a "principle of pure potentiality". You think all change can be explained in terms of "things in motion". I disagree. I doubt that you can explain substantial change, the unity and identity of material objects, life, sensation or cognition in terms of "things in motion". I'd be happy to discuss any of these if you'd like, though you'd have to clarify your position by getting more explicit about what "things are motion" really means (e.g. what "things" are in motion, and what is "motion"?).

    Furthermore, you asserted:

    Things like "principles of pure potentiality" don't exist outside of our thought.Terrapin Station

    but never actually offered a reason for believing this. And please don't reply that "there's no empirical evidence" because that is just a category mistake, as was already discussed.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    Change obtains because things are in motion.Terrapin Station

    That's practically vacuous, like saying "things change because things change", for motion is just a type of change. What accounts for motion if potentiality is unreal?

    Things like "principles of pure potentiality" don't exist outside of our thought.Terrapin Station

    Prime matter (pure potency) is postulated in order to explain substantial change. It's not clear to me how to explain substantial change without it. In my experience, appealing to "motion" won't get us very far.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    As stated already, what one might think of as the properties of a thing are aspects of the form of the thing. This really should show you that there is no way to ever tell when matter is present and when matter is not present- it just has to be asserted as the case. In truth, it appears that its forms all the way down to the most basic substances that make up reality.Walter Pound

    No, it can't be forms all the way down, or there would be no potentiality, and thus no change. There must be a principle of pure potentiality. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "there is no way to ever tell when matter is present". For material substances, matter is always present by definition. And we're not "just asserting it to be the case", we postulate prime matter because the alternative - no change - is absurd.

    Aristotle's metaphysics is no help in avoiding absurdity.Walter Pound

    Yes it is.

    This is a nice sounding story.Walter Pound

    I'm glad you enjoyed it.

    Not controversial? I am willing to bet that the majority of philosophers reject Aristotle's metaphysics and they clearly know that metaphysics can do well if it is empirically informed with science.Walter Pound

    I willing to bet that the majority of philosophers have not studied Aristotelian metaphysics in any depth because if they had they'd realize that Aristotelian metaphysics has much more going for it than modern materialism, especially with respect to the empirical sciences. Having completed an undergraduate thesis in philosophy myself, I can attest to the fact that Aristotle's thought was not well understood by the majority of the faculty, mostly because they simply never took the time to seriously consider it (and I attended a university with a prestigious philosophy department). However, Aristotelian metaphysics is making a come-back within professional philosophy, mostly due to the recognition of the multitudinous difficulties facing modern materialistic/physicalistic metaphysics.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    That does not follow at all; please google nominalism if you are confused about other possibilities.Walter Pound

    Lol...you were the one who said that what physical reality does is distinct from what a physical reality is. Perhaps it's you who is confused.

    Modern physics goes on fine without dubious metaphysics.Walter Pound

    Still conflating physics with metaphysics, I see.

    Your arguments fail since you conflate the is of identity with the is of prediction.Walter Pound

    Assertion. Feel to actually demonstrate this.

    Question begging.Walter Pound

    No, I've offered reasons, you just haven't understood them yet.

    For Aristotle, hydrogen and oxygen are NOT "concrete, material particulars with their own causal powers."Walter Pound

    Yes, they are.

    Aristotle believed that the essence of a thing was its substance and necessarily composed of matter and form; therefore, Aristotle would describe an atom, such as hydrogen and oxygen, as a hylomorphic compound of matter and form. — "Walter

    Right, and hylomorphic compounds (i.e. material substances) are concrete material particulars. For Aristotle, concrete, material/physical objects are hylemorphic compounds of matter and form. As it says in the very first sentence in the SEP article on matter and form:

    Aristotle famously contends that every physical object is a compound of matter and form. — Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

    You want to identify the MATERIAL cause of the water molecule as hydrogen and oxygen atoms, but it is a FORM that makes something hydrogen and oxygen; indeed, it seems that all of what one would ordinarily consider as the properties of things are aspects of the form of the thing. Given this fact, what makes the cause "material?" Furthermore, you mention that atoms are potentially molecules, but surely what a thing is "potentially" depends on what it is ACTUALITY like and depends on the properties (or the aspects of the FORM) of the thing- again, I don't see what role matter plays here...Walter Pound

    You are once again overlooking the fact that matter and form are functional concepts. Hydrogen is itself a hylemorphic compound of matter and form, but it can also play the role of matter within higher-order hylemorphic compounds.

    Again, you just repeat yourself and you confuse the Aristotlean understanding of matter with a physicalist understanding of matter. No physicalist will agree with you that hydrogen and oxygen are just a piece of something like prime matter; that wouldn't make any sense...Walter Pound

    Great, because that is not what I claimed.

    Sorry, somehow I posted my response before I was finished. The remainder will follow in a second post below...
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    but what physical reality does is not what physical reality is.Walter Pound

    Right, they are distinct, which is exactly the point! Using your lingo, what a thing "does" (the way it's arranged) is just as real as what it "is" (the particles themselves). Look, if you want to deny the reality of form, go ahead, but you're just unwittingly throwing out all of modern physics with it. Modern physics is just maths after all.

    The debate isn't whether Aristotle's metaphysical framework can be made compatible with modern physics, but whether we have a good reason to even accept it when there are more parsimonious alternatives available.Walter Pound

    Yes, there are good reasons. We've been discussing them already.

    Whatever is in actuality has causal power over whatever is in potentiality. Substances that are composed of matter and form have causal power over potentialities. This is not at all like stating that physical reality has causal power since physicalism does not entail hypomorphic composites.Walter Pound

    Your mangling Aristotle’s metaphysics through your misunderstanding. Aristotle would not have denied that entities such as hydrogen and oxygen atoms have their own causal powers. It just that Aristotle had the good sense to realize that you can’t eliminate form from your ontology without courting absurdity. When Aristotle says that matter is the principle of potentiality he means something very specific. Hydrogen and oxygen are concrete, material particulars with their own causal powers. And yet, taken individually, hydrogen and oxygen atoms are only potentially a water molecule. That's what it means to say that they are the material cause of the water molecule. They play the role of matter with respect to the molecule H20 because something else is required in order for them to actualize a water molecule. The number and arrangement of atoms plays the role of formal cause with respect to the water molecule because the it is what the makes the molecule a water molecule as opposed to some other type of molecule. The physical interaction between the atoms that leads to the actualization of the molecule plays the role of efficient cause, and the physical laws that govern the behavior of the atoms plays the role of final cause, reliably “directing” the interaction toward a particular outcome.

    If you assume that H2O is a hylomorphic compound or that protons and Carbon atoms are hylomorphic compounds, then you would be correct to say that modern physics does not contradict Aristotle; however, this would be begging the question. What reason is there to suppose that a proton is a composite of form and "matter?"Walter Pound
    Because denying it leads to absurdity.

    Assuming that Aristotle is correct, then whatever one imagines matter to be, it cannot be protons, or quarks or electrons or any fundamental particle or fundamental force, since those things are all composites of form and some nebulous thing called "matter." What informatively can be said of Aristotle's matter is that it is a "thing" that is impotent and exists as a potential for which forms actualize and exists in an asymmetric relationship with forms since matter does not act on forms, but forms do act on matter.Walter Pound

    Sorry, but you’re just wrong. Aristotle’s definition of matter and form are functional in nature. As such, something counts as matter or form based on the role it plays with respect to something else. We saw this with the H20 example above. Hydrogen and oxygen are matter with respect to H20 because when combined into a particular arrangement/structure they form H20. Hydrogen and oxygen are only potentially H20, they need to be arranged in a certain way to actually become H20.

    This really shouldn’t be controversial and only seems controversial because you’re failing to distinguish between physics and metaphysics (as I mentioned in my first post). Matter and form are metaphysical principles, not empirical entities. To treat them as empirical concepts is to commit a basic category error.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    You want to suggest that "arrangement," "regularity" and "structure" are not exhausted by matter and that these things must be evidence for something beyond matter and there is no reason for that conclusion.Walter Pound

    Sure there is. If the arrangement of the atoms was simply identical with the atoms themselves then all arrangements would be identical. That's obviously not the case.

    A carbon atom has in itself the kind of charge that attracts the charges of four hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom has in itself the kind of charge that attracts two hydrogen atoms; however, a Helium atom has no such charge that could attract hydrogen atoms and all this is inherent to matter and no "forms" are necessary to explain the behavioral differences between carbon atoms and oxygen atoms.Walter Pound

    The behavioral differences are due to the number and arrangement of sub-atomic particles. The number and arrangement of the particles just is the form of each element. The matter is the particles, the form is the way that they're arranged. The arrangement and the particles cannot be identical, as discussed above.

    Aristotle describes matter as only possessing potential and it is the forms that actualize those potentials, but modern physics demonstrates that matter is not a hapless impotent part of reality, but an active participant in why matter behaves as it does; matter has causal powers that determines how matter behaves.Walter Pound

    This is just a simple case of using the same words in different ways. Aristotle does not deny that material objects have intrinsic causal powers. In fact, this is exactly what he does claim! However, for Aristotle all material objects are hylemorphic compounds of matter and form. Matter doesn't exist in its own right. Form doesn't exist in its own right. Only material objects (i.e. substances) exist in their own right. To say that modern physics contradicts Aristotle's is just to misunderstand Aristotle's metaphysics.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    I'm not denying that modern physics can explain the differences between H20 and CH4. I'm saying that the concept of formal cause is implicit even within modern science despite the denial of those who don't really understand what it means. Insofar as modern science appeals to concepts such organization, arrangement, regularity and structure it is invoking formal causation. It is part of what accounts for the difference between having H20 and just having two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    I didn't say that they are prescriptive. I said you need to invoke the arrangement of the parts in order to explain the behavior of the whole. A material analysis of the parts is not sufficient.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    No, you also need the laws that describe how the particles arrange themselves upon interaction. You cannot deduce the behavioral properties of the whole from an analysis of the parts alone.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    Suppose that you have a scientist insert 4 protons into a carbon atom, the behavior of the new atom (Ne atom) is unreactive and will not form bonds that carbon atoms would have; this new behavior is determined by other parts of matter and not by forms.Walter Pound

    No, the behavior is partially at least partially determined by the form or arrangement of the particles within the atom. The particles taken as a group themselves behave differently depending on how they are arranged, so that behavior cannot be determined only by the particles themselves.
  • It is life itself that we can all unite against
    I liken this to "no harm, no foul" reasoning. If no one was ACTUALLY born, no ACTUAL person was deprived of the "goods" of life.schopenhauer1

    That's not true at all. Billions of actual people would be deprived of the goods (of which there are many) associated with having and raising families.

    But more to the point, I asked whether it was fair for us to make the decision on behalf of others. The no harm/no foul principle does not address the question of whether one group of people living at a specific time and place and under specific circumstances has the moral authority to decide whether life is worth living tout court. That seems like a dangerously slippery slope.
  • It is life itself that we can all unite against
    Fair enough, but I disagree completely. Basically your position is that no amount of goodness/growth/beauty is worth any amount of evil/pain/suffering. If this is a nothing more than a subjective evaluation on your part, then all I can say in response is that as someone who has suffered significantly (though not gratuitously) in life, I would chose existence over non-existence. I know many who have suffered gratuitously who would make the same choice.

    Also, is it really fair to make this decision on behalf of those who might/probably would have chosen otherwise?
  • It is life itself that we can all unite against
    I understand that you believe this, but you still haven't demonstrated why anyone else should believe it.
  • It is life itself that we can all unite against
    The assumption of the OP seems to be that no greater good can come from suffering. Basically, suffering is never worth it. You never argued for this. Why should we believe that?
  • Death leads to Pointlessness?
    It seems to me that death eradicates point and meaning because only the living can have desires.Andrew4Handel
    (Physical) death only eradicates meaning if there's no soul, God, Absolute or some other physically transcendent source of meaning.
  • Aristotle's Hylomorphism/Matter
    I think you're confusing metaphysics with physics. Matter and form are metaphysical principles that explain the structure, not the details of reality. The metaphysical theory of matter and form is not intended as a substitute for modern chemistry or physics, but constitute the framework that provides the intellectual preconditions for all inquiry. When it comes to chemical compounds, the material constituents (protons, electrons, etc.) are the "matter", whereas the particular arrangement of those constituents are the "form" of the compound. In this sense, matter and form can be seen as relative concepts that can be arranged hierarchically. An individual proton is "matter" with respect to a chemical compound, but is a substance (with it's own substantial form) in it's own right with regard to the quarks that make it up. Aristotle does posit an absolute concept of matter, called prime matter, which is pure potentiality, and absolute form/actuality was posited as God.
  • Is Truth Mind-Dependent?
    Yes I'd agree that calling DNA a "language" is a more of metaphorical projection than anything else.
  • Is Truth Mind-Dependent?
    What justification do you have to claim that the DNA encoding does not refer to anything?tom

    Well, I didn't make that claim, so none.

    I don't deny that DNA can act as a sign-vehicle of sorts, analogous to how markings on a page can act as sign-vehicles for statements. But whereas a statement is what it is in virtue of expressing a propositional content which, in turn, is what it is in virtue of being inferentially related to other such contents, DNA is not. So while DNA sequences and statement-tokens are alike in acting as sign-vehicles, they are yet essentially different respecting the types of sign-systems they participate in.