Also a considerable chunk of your 'evidence' comes directly from the US government or Ukrainian government sources. — Isaac

Yet not all. Trails of (independent) evidence paint a picture and also suggests modus operandi, fingerprints, tell-tale tracks. The shamming, organized re-enculturation efforts, subversion (mentioned in the thread prior) are also parts thereof. And Girkin turned into an Achilles heel of deniability.

You can't seriously expect me to take those sources seriously in the circumstances. — Isaac

(Hmm poisoning the wells (plural)?)
Grabbing Crimea and eastern "insurgence" (followed by "annexation") are fairly hands-on type pieces of evidence, but a bit harder to hide/deny. :)
^{Feb 2014, Apr 2014, Nov 2014, Sep 2017, Jun 2018, Feb 2019, Sep 2022, Nov 2022}

The Nord Stream incident is less clear, which kind of makes it more interesting. (I'm still not quite convinced the saboteur(s) must be a state actor, for that matter.) Puzzle...

No need to go all zealous. :)

"Scientists want you to know that most balloons come in peace. They're used for experiments to look at everything from cosmic rays to the ozone layer."

Researchers watch and worry as balloons are blasted from the sky
^{— Geoff Brumfiel · NPR · Feb 21, 2023}

balloon researchers are careful to follow airspace and other government regulations, our research balloons carry no surveillance capability, and safety is always a primary concern — Joan Alexander

This other side of the story, the useful, practical ballooning that helps students, helps technology and our better understanding of the Universe, really needs to get out there — Gregory Guzik

The spying/security aspect isn't going away, though.

Apparently, some Russian military folk lament Biden visiting that "Russian territory" before Putin. :D

Almost a year after the beginning of the NWO, we were waiting in the Russian city of Kyiv for the president of the Russian Federation, and not the United States. — Notes of midshipman Ptichkin (Feb 20, 2023)

Hmm Could Putin stride about Moscow, Biden stride about Washington? Maybe, maybe not...
With the media shutdown/control in Russia, I wonder how much general access/information those military folk have.

On another note...

Russia targets Netherlands' North Sea infrastructure, says Dutch intelligence agency
^{— Anthony Deutsch, Bart Meijer, Hugh Lawson, Susan Fenton · Reuters · Feb 20, 2023}

Not really all that surprising.

I guess everyone has different aspirations...

Chechnya's Kadyrov: one day I plan my own mercenary group
^{— Caleb Davis, Guy Faulconbridge · Reuters · Feb 19, 2023}

When my service to the state is completed, I seriously plan to compete with our dear brother Yevgeny Prigozhin and create a private military company. I think it will all work out. — Ramzan Kadyrov

As far as I can tell, there isn't a significant number of Chechens shooting in Ukraine, though they have been and are present. Kadyrov was among them around 2014. Most are doing the GKremlin's bidding.

• Chechen involvement in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (Wikipedia)
• Kadyrovites » Ukraine (Wikipedia)

What about drones?
Some legislation has been put in place, though I don't recall the exact details here (I've had a small drone with camera from before they started getting legal attention).
For example, you're not allowed to head out to the airport and start flying your drone around. :)
I imagine balloons have been subject to legislation longer.

Russia blocks access to The Bell news website
^{— Caleb Davis, Guy Faulconbridge · Reuters · Feb 19, 2023}

Rights groups say Russia is trying to control the entire media landscape by blocking independent news outlets, stopping their reporting on the war from reaching ordinary Russians.

Some degree of media control is expected when waging war I s'pose; theirs went overboard some time ago though. :/ "Foreign agents" has become a go-to allegation and judicial process has gone down the drain.

The Chinese room sure has received a bit of attention.

^{• Chinese Room Argument (IEP)
• The Chinese Room Argument (SEP)
• Chinese room (Wikipedia)
• Quantum Mechanics, the Chinese Room Experiment and the Limits of Understanding (Scientific American)
• Searle and the Chinese Room Argument (Illinois State University)}

Horgan draws some parallels with other philosophicalities, solipsism, though I'm not quite sure how well his argument fares. Regardless, there seems to be some relations among Levine's gap / Chalmers' conundrum, McGinn's mysterianism, all that. There's a possible problem with human mind attempting to understand (map) human mind (territory, self), a self-reference (and indexical) thing. Anyway, I'm guessing that mind as we know it requires a fair bit of (autonomous, ongoing, self-initiated) interaction with the environment.

Suppose one of the above had found a distinct resolution, then what would it mean for others?

@Tzeentch, seems like such balloons do violate airspace regulations/laws.
At least some of them are Chinese according to Chinese authorities themselves.
Maybe they just went "Hey let's try this, see how it goes"?
In the scheme of things such balloons are fairly cheap, yet might spot something of interest.
Barring large incidents, what is there to lose?




Extraterrestrials Admit Responsibility for Unidentified Objects but Claim They Were Only Monitoring Weather
^{— Andy Borowitz · The New Yorker · Feb 13, 2023}

:D

A report from the frontlines:

‘Better than nothing’: Outgunned Ukrainian pilots take the fight to Russia in ancient Soviet-era helicopters
^{— Sam Kiley, Olha Konovalova, Sarah Dean, William Bonnett · CNN · Feb 17, 2023}

Doesn't seem to be a whole of such reports with the invaders.

Had Russia taken over Kyiv in Feb 2022 and taken the government into custody (or worse), then Ukraine would more or less have fallen under Kremlin rule, at least in the eyes of a few. There would be resistance, more scattered, less organized, that would end up being labeled "terrorists" — terrorists (and Nazis) are fair game after all, right? Would have been a victory for Putin, and, say, like "an intervention stopping a Nazi regime".
Kyiv didn't go like Crimea, though. Since then, their invasion has relied on numbers/resources (large hinterland that sort of includes Belarus), no particular threat to Russia (anywhere, no one's going to invade Russia, Putin + team can shuffle things about worryfree, or so they think :wink:), "no part of Ukraine is safe", others' restraints (e.g. no foreign battalions kicking them out, no NFZ), all that. So, they can just keep pouring on people and bombs, perhaps other openings will present themselves.
Maybe they hoped for Kyiv and expected shooting as usual in the east?

Zelensky asks for proof of invasion of Ukraine allegedly planned for February 16
^{— TASS · Feb 12, 2022}
Washington’s warnings that Russia is about to invade frustrate Ukrainians
^{— Matt Bradley, Veronika Melkozerova · NBC News · Feb 15, 2022}
Hacked News Channel and Deepfake of Zelenskyy Surrendering Is Causing Chaos Online
^{— Samantha Cole · VICE · Mar 16, 2022}
EU 'did not believe' US warnings of Russian war
^{— John Silk · Deutsche Welle · Oct 11, 2022}

They're just out looking for balloons, it's trendy at the moment. :)

US intercepts Russian bombers off Alaska for 2 straight days
^{— Luis Martinez, Mark Osborne · ABC News · Feb 16, 2023}
Russian warplanes fly near Alaskan airspace second time in two days
^{— Ellen Mitchell · The Hill · Feb 16, 2023}

This Russian activity near the North American ADIZ [Air Defense Identification Zone] occurs regularly and is not seen as a threat, nor is the activity seen as provocative. — NORAD

The problem of Russian expansion (land grabbing) has come up before, starting a good while back. At first for Moldova, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, the Baltics, with Moldova being the more vulnerable. Presently for Ukraine. Putin bemoans NATO (well, "the West" I suppose, at least that's what they want others to hear), others bemoan Putin's Russia bulging towards them. Some of this is expressed here as well:

Opinion: Moldova isn’t on the front page, but it could be in Putin’s crosshairs
^{— Cristian Gherasim · CNN · Feb 15, 2023}

Anyway, we have others that don't want to become under Putin's thumb, under Kremlin control. The fear is real enough.

The balloonery apparently isn't just over North America.

Balloon sighted over Latin America is from China, Beijing says
^{— Al Jazeera · Feb 6, 2023}

No, not aliens. :D

Are they spy balloons or aliens? What we know about the flying objects spotted in US, Canada and even China
^{— Roshneesh Kmaneck · Firstpost · Feb 13, 2023}
Why We're Suddenly Spotting Spy Balloons
^{— Sophie Bushwick · Scientific American · Feb 14, 2023}

There’s probably at least 100 [large balloons] in the air, on any given day. It’s not very stealthy. The payload underneath it was about the size of a small plane, so it … looks like a plane on the radar. Previously, they had things set up to filter out what they would describe as clutter on the radar. These newer ones are the result of a heightened sense of caution. … [They] modified the algorithm that they use to determine whether something is of interest or not, and so things that have been there all along are now popping up for the first time. Because the wind speed varies at different altitudes, they can use that to basically change direction and steer to a certain amount. And you could, in theory, put some rudders and propellers on a balloon. With propellers, then I think you could overcome some of the wind and you could move from side to side. … You can imagine designing a trajectory; you’re mostly going from west to east, but you’re able to go north-south to some extent if you have some kind of propulsion system. The recent UAP reports that came out in January … they listed a whole bunch of new UAPs, and the vast majority of the ones that they identified were balloons, simply because it’s such a common thing to be in the air. In a military context, you never want to rule anything out—which is why they haven’t ruled out aliens. Out of an abundance of caution, you really want to consider all the possibilities. — Mick West

^{↑ Source (Feb 6, 2023)}

A bit puzzling.

Meanwhile, the dreadful attrition rate of men fed into the meat grinder continues [...] — Wayfarer

Russia may have lost an entire elite brigade near a Donetsk coal-mining town
^{— Veronika Melkozerova · POLITICO · Feb 12, 2023}
'This isn't Russian roulette, it's like the suicide of lemmings': Putin's marine brigade of 5,000 men is all but destroyed in one of the most brutal battles since the start of the war
^{— Ian Birrell · Daily Mail · Feb 13, 2023}
‘Like turkeys at a shooting range’: Mauling of Russian forces in Donetsk hotspot may signal problems to come
^{— Tim Lister · CNN · Feb 14, 2023}

The frontlines go this way then that. (↑ gross and disgusting)

Analysis: Kremlin moves to rein in Russian mercenary boss Prigozhin
^{— Andrew Osborn, Alex Richardson · Reuters · Feb 14, 2023}

Well, Prigozhin is a nasty piece of work, maybe even for the Kremlin.

US-backed report says Russia has held at least 6,000 Ukrainian children for 're-education'
^{— Reuters via The Jerusalem Post · Feb 14, 2023}

(in continuation of prior reports)

EU seeks to use frozen Russian funds to rebuild Ukraine
^{— Terje Solsvik, Essi Lehto, Niklas Pollard, Sandra Maler · Reuters · Feb 14, 2023}

There's an idea.

On another note, would it be accurate to say that Iran is in a proxy war with Ukraine?
_{(Sep 17, Oct 13, Nov 1, Nov 5, Nov 5, Nov 6, Nov 10, Nov 18, Nov 24, Nov 25, Nov 27, Nov 28, Dec 7, Dec 12, Jan 2, Jan 9, Jan 26)} — Jan 29, 2023

Iran smuggled drones into Russia using boats and state airline, sources reveal
^{— Martin Chulov, Dan Sabbagh, Nechirvan Mando · The Guardian · Feb 12, 2023}
Iran used boats, state airline to smuggle drones to Russia
^{— The Jerusalem Post · Feb 13, 2023}

Arguably, Iran is technically in a proxy war against Ukraine, yet saying so is kind of misleading (incidentally, analogous to some comments hereabouts). Iran has seen a bit of commotion lately. Could surely use some "friends". Sort of odd, but perhaps not surprising.

I think that "opinion" is quite well shown from the actions and the reasons given to those actions by the leaders of Russia. Putin's article Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“ shows perfectly what he thought of the Ukrainian state. Among the multitude of other obvious examples. — ssu

Yep, and evidence/arguments have been posted throughout the thread already.

Besides which you're simply attempting your usual switch. The issue here [...] — Isaac

... isn't up to you to decide on others' behalf. :grin:

Ordinarily, people, including children, would mask up in public social settings, not at home for example (bubble), while learning more.

People were screamed at, called 'murderers' [...] — Isaac

... and there was "child abuse" screamery (which it isn't, but evokes other things), and some made a fine buck on masks (the :mask:-industrial complex), and elsewhere masking up turned into a mini-trend because then they'd worry less about pimples lipstick whatever. I guess you could schedule a study for when those kids are post-puberty to figure out how many turned into monsters or something. Did past :mask:'ing produce damaged years/generations?

And you wonder how they get to walk all over you... — Isaac

I cannot make sense of your blind obsequience. — Isaac

Hmm So that's what you made out of @EricH's comments.

, something Prasad got right was that the Ο-mutants became wicked at spreading, found fertile ground, but, fortunately, became less dangerous. :phew: ← need icon

On another note...

Something odd about the US... — Feb 7, 2023

Median price of hepatitis C drug Harvoni (Statista)

Cost of Insulin by Country (World Population Review); insulin was developed by a Canadian and a Scotsman a century ago, not new or anything, some will die in a month or something without insulin

Xarelto Prices (PharmacyChecker)

Per capita prescribed medicine spending (OECD)

Prices in the United States are higher than those in all comparison countries — ASPE

What's the deal with those prices anyway? I guess they affect health care. Apparently, there are other things where the US stands out moneywise.

There are various factors at play.
You don't want to wait a couple of years for studies to come out when there's an outbreak. Besides, masking up isn't exactly detrimental.
Often enough you'd see someone only covering their mouth (including on broadcasts/TV). Don't know what studies tried to account for masking up wrong, but people ought to know better.

Fortunately, it hasn't been as dangerous as the 2003 outbreak, which had a 10% fatality rate, and we're fortunate that such a deadly mutation hasn't emerged in this round. — Oct 19, 2022

By the way, there are influentials that some contrarians/fools/whoever will listen to.

How a Kennedy built an anti-vaccine juggernaut amid COVID-19
^{— Michelle R Smith · AP News · Dec 15, 2021}

Despite USA's larger military budget, Toti opines:

Who is the sleeping giant now?
^{— William Toti · The Hill · Feb 7, 2023}

Something odd about the US... Medicine and some kinds of services are more expensive in the US than most others. Also came up in the 2016 election run. An effect of capitalism or something? Plain supply and demand?

Belarus leader says he has been asked to seal a non-aggression pact with Ukraine
^{— Andrew Osborn, Mark Trevelyan · Reuters · Jan 24, 2023}

They are asking us not to go to war with Ukraine in any circumstances, not to move our troops there. They are proposing we conclude a non-aggression pact. — Lukashenko

For the past ten months, [Belarus/Lukashenko] has permitted Russia to base troops in Belarus and launch airstrikes from the country against Ukrainian targets. — Rudnik

No, I cannot comment on this right now. I do not have any information. — Peskov

Russia is trying in every possible way to draw Belarus directly into the war. Ukraine warns Minsk against any possible further aggressive plans, we confirm the absence of any aggressive intentions towards Belarus on our part. — Nikolenko

Seems unlikely, and might not mean a whole lot anyway. Any takers?

Can we compare a (toy) heaven and a (toy) universe?
We know our world; I guess heaven would fall back on definitions/uses.
Religions often enough have notions of heaven, said to be the best, the place to be.

There's something weird or off about the greater good theodicy.
If it's for the greater good, then what business have doctors/researchers/psychiatrists/etc trying to fix it?
Shouldn't it be left for that (presumably planned, trusted) greater good?
Mentioned good folks have managed to cure/relieve some maladies over time, others not so much.

Another of those sorts of reports:

Ukraine: Russia sending civilians through landmine fields to find safe routes
^{— Jerusalem Post, Reuters · Feb 1, 2023}

Would Belarus then be complicit in crimes / human rights violations?
Don't know if Belarus would allow independent investigators, but probably not monitors.

Putin says military must stop Ukrainian shelling of Russian regions
^{— Mark Trevelyan, Alexandra Hudson · Reuters · Feb 1, 2023}

Many people found themselves in a difficult situation, lost their homes, were forced to move to relatives or to temporary places of residence, faced interruptions in the supply of water, heat, and electricity. — Putin

(well then ... no, not The Onion)


, yeah, CBS reported it as well.

An off-the-books mercenary army is gaining power in Putin’s Russia
^{— Zachary B Wolf · CNN · Jan 30, 2023}
Inside the battle for Bakhmut, where Ukraine's tech-savvy troops say Russia treats men like meat
^{— Debora Patta, Steve Berriman, Tucker Reals · CBS News · Jan 31, 2023} — Jan 31, 2023

By "tech-savvy" they're referring to monitoring, recording, drones, ...
Apparently a good lot of the "zombies" are questionable hires by the mercenary groups.
Aren't there some human rights principles/edicts being blatantly violated here...?

Let's see what comments if any this can generate:

— Mearsheimer (paraphrased): Everyone should have known that Putin would have Russia attack Ukraine

— Others: Ukraine's defense and political dealings with the West ain't up to Putin to decide, and, besides, Ukrainian NATO membership wouldn't doom Russia to destruction ^{(Feb24, Mar18, Apr26, May7, Jun10, Oct27)}, let alone a Russia without Crimea

— Cynic: Bah, it's all just rhetoric, entitlement, propaganda, manipulation by everyone

Grabbing Crimea (2014) apparently was a surprise. Invading (2022) wasn't entirely a surprise ^{(2015, 2015, 2022)}.

Putin's Russia has been regressing ↘

:/

Russia’s Longest Standing Human Rights Organization Dissolved by State Courts
^{— Tony Spitz · Veuer · Jan 26, 2023 (1m:14s)} — Jan 26, 2023

An off-the-books mercenary army is gaining power in Putin’s Russia
^{— Zachary B Wolf · CNN · Jan 30, 2023}
Inside the battle for Bakhmut, where Ukraine's tech-savvy troops say Russia treats men like meat
^{— Debora Patta, Steve Berriman, Tucker Reals · CBS News · Jan 31, 2023}

Well, there are some degrees I guess...

outlawed (punishable by law)
loosely illegalized (can/will always find something?)
censored out
suppressed (like by independent publishers/media)
propagandized against
commonly scoffed at

Would it be worthwhile differentiating? (intentionally omitted "shoot on sight!")
I wouldn't say Chomsky "and a myriad of others" are being gagged. Besides, Chomsky ain't so easy to keep down. :)

Apparently, some are making a buck off the war with computer games:

Battlefront: Black Sea

Ukraine Defender

Squad



And some are using games to spread fakes:

Trolls are using this life-like video game to spread misinformation about the Ukraine war

Can't trust alleged footage, though fake game video is often a bit too "perfect". At the moment anyway.

Certainly. I am morally opposed to any system that is based on the use and threat of violence. — Tzeentch

Apart from mercenaries, sociopaths, dictators, ..., I'd think most share the sentiment.

What does that translate to, though, in real life, social life?

(I'm wary of thinking up idealized Utopias, would rather stick to ongoing realistic aspirations, but this ↑↓ stuff isn't about me personally.)

I would consider even a single person dying against their will to be an enormous cost that was unjustly imposed, on the moral ground that no person has the right to tell another to give their life against their will, under any circumstance. — Tzeentch

I would consider even a single person dying against their will to be an enormous cost that was unjustly imposed, on the moral ground that no person has the right to tell another to give their life against their will, under any circumstance. — Tzeentch

Isn't this more of an objection to most political/societal systems, except anarchy (maybe)?
Defenders don't really have much choice, as attackers do.

How do you imagine this playing out?

Wait for something to better regulate our interaction, say along the lines of 180 Proof's idea?
I suppose (theoretically) we might hope and wait for particular global change in the ethics of our neurotic, part-time rational homo sapiens (maybe even an evolutionary leap); yet that's quite high hopes, not quite realistic.

EDIT

Any one person is outnumbered by two with a different sentiment/attitude.
Individuals in a society could be ruled by organized thugs or a (transparent) democratic majority where all have a say.
Running with the least bad is rational enough, regardless of some personal sacrifices.

:fire: :up: (you made me disturb the house)

War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine

By the way, until now at least, Ukrainian areas have had better (international) coverage by teams of journalists/investigators, be it Kyiv, areas taken back by Ukraine, whatever.

The 'evidence' that the defenders aren't is little more than overt apologetics. — Isaac

They aren't in to give up the land. (Though I'd worry about the creation of haters.)

But a 'who committed most war crimes' contest seems more than a little tasteless. — Isaac

It's what you brought up.

Anyway, according to the UN, EU, the defender, most really, the invaders/imposer ought to leave. A fair amount already posted to that, and some from the invaders/imposer to the contrary.


On another note, would it be accurate to say that Iran is in a proxy war with Ukraine?
_{(Sep 17, Oct 13, Nov 1, Nov 5, Nov 5, Nov 6, Nov 10, Nov 18, Nov 24, Nov 25, Nov 27, Nov 28, Dec 7, Dec 12, Jan 2, Jan 9, Jan 26)}

, what we have is a long thread (+ newspapers :smirk:) with observations, including and not limited to Crimea. Filtering most out in assessment and attempts to better understand the attacker/imposer and defender (like what they want / don't want), imposing the artificial restriction like so, suggests not really aiming to understand.

Frankly I don't care. They certainly ought to stop committing war crimes, but that's not the same thing as giving up territory. — Isaac

The defenders evidently aren't and war crimes (so far mostly) the attackers/imposers.

Nah, , no need to artificially limit an assessment/evaluation like so. And we take what we have when trying to better understand the attacker/imposer and defender, maybe what they want / don't want.
(Incidentally, Putin enrolling Ukraine into Russia would have been some achievement (resource-wise, politically, power-wise on the international stage, economically, popularity-wise at home, all that).)
Trajectories and trends matter too, like those mentioned above.

Posted prior in the thread? Others were. Anyway...

UN Human Rights reports dire human rights situation seven months after the start of the Russian Federation wide-scale armed attack on Ukraine
^{— Tanya Korol · UN Human Rights · Sep 27, 2022}
Olenivka prison massacre
^{— Wikipedia}

By the way, Holocaust Remembrance is today:

Putin blasts 'neo-Nazis' in Ukraine on Holocaust Remembrance Day
^{— AFP via Yahoo · Jan 27, 2023}

It seems power does indeed corrupt — Tzeentch

And elected officials like the Frump, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Wendy Rogers, Ted Cruz, ..., look a bit like societal decline. Apparently, the Frump is now pushing the nuclear thing, suggesting that Biden sending nuclear weapons to Ukraine is next up.

So you think that was the first [...] — Isaac

Not relevant.

Virtue signalling — Isaac

Nope:

(spraying bombs, spreading destruction, letting their mercs run free, flattening towns, killing, shamming, re-enculturating, fear-mongering and calls for nationalism at home)
[...]
trajectory
[...]
ruthless oppressive regressive autocratic untrustworthy land-grabber
[...]
risky — Jan 23, 2023

Crimea — Isaac

You missed:

(spraying bombs, spreading destruction, letting their mercs run free, flattening towns, killing, shamming, re-enculturating, fear-mongering and calls for nationalism at home)
[...]
trajectory
[...]
ruthless oppressive regressive autocratic untrustworthy land-grabber
[...]
risky — Jan 23, 2023

I'm not a newspaper — Isaac

EU on government reshuffle: ‘We welcome Ukrainian authorities taking corruption allegations seriously’
^{— The Kyiv Independent · Jan 24, 2023}
Russia’s Longest Standing Human Rights Organization Dissolved by State Courts
^{— Tony Spitz · Veuer · Jan 26, 2023 (1m:14s)}

Mildly amusing despite the alternate interpretation:

German foreign office "sorry" for tweet taking a dig at Russia's African outreach with a leopard emoji
^{— CBS News · Jan 26, 2023}
Germany apologizes for leopard jibe that upset some Africans
^{— Gerald Imray · AP News · Jan 26, 2023}

Yes it's clear as day that its cut and dry. Don't be so pissy — Merkwurdichliebe

It's clear with tunnel vision, otherwise not so much.

Simple enough moral starting point: the invaders ought to go home (mercs included). — jorndoe

, check news, what do you think they've done and continue doing? Ain't going to keep repeating, but may add updates I suppose (spraying bombs, spreading destruction, letting their mercs run free, flattening towns, killing, shamming, re-enculturating, fear-mongering and calls for nationalism at home). Why do you think I posted the suggestion that they ought to leave anyway (affirming/denying omitted I noticed)? Actually, many draftees probably want to. Any "how" could follow any "ought".

There are children, future children, millions affected outside of Ukraine... — Isaac

And inside. A few already affected. Subsumption under Kremlin rule no good, wrong trajectory, what they don't want, but...repeating again. So, contrary to the UN, do you think it wrong that "the invaders ought to go home"? Had Ukraine just capitulated (or sought incorporation into Russia), the situation would be different. Probably more nervousness in Moldova Poland Romania Hungary Slovakia and elsewhere with the Kremlin expansion.^{(Putin, Patrushev, Matviyenko)} You can be sure that (would-be) autocrats + others are taking notes.

With millions, are you referring to Ukrainian farm production + export impact + consequences elsewhere? (As an aside, Putin's Russia apparently managed to sneak stolen farm goods off to Syria.) Are you thinking of a (nuclear) world war three? Something else?

Anyway, getting too close to complicity in Putin's Russia subsuming Ukraine isn't really the best, be it persons or continents. By conscience at least, I'd rather flirt with complicity in standing up to the ruthless oppressive regressive autocratic untrustworthy land-grabber Kremlin. I guess, analogous to the Uyghur situation and the old Canadian Indian residential school system (children here too). Fringe style, supposing there was enough anti-resistance or laissez-faire type attitude in the 1930s-40s, would Berlinian Hitler-Jugend have subsumed scouts and schools in Europe? More victims to be sure.

Why would anyone else care about Ukrainian sovereignty? — Isaac

Because, like Sweden Finland others, they don't want to be under Putin's thumb? Might be...risky for vocal individuals to try it + report back. We might ask what the refugees want to go home to. Had Russia been on another trajectory, perhaps buzzing with transparency freedom whatever, then things might have been different. We've seen it.

Okie, enough repetition already. It's what these comments are, over and again. Any new aspects? Developments? (I can appreciate 's suggestion for chessboard analysis, though lots of guesswork involved.)

_{And now to something completely different:
New Tesla Model To Include Undercarriage Thresher To Shred All Evidence Of Running Someone Over
^{— The Onion · Oct 24, 2022}}

blindly prostitute [...] that's all it is — Tzeentch

It's comments like these that make me take them less seriously here. (Sanctimonious indignation or something?)

That suggests that the most important moral issue here is where everybody is and who's in charge of what — Isaac

:D Let's stick to the topic at hand

_{(pattern (rhetoric): quote from original → reword (more generic, different scope, whatever) → comment on that instead)}