Pathogens ☣ have been with us since, well, forever or something.

Questions that seem relevant here by now:

In the history of ☣ outbreaks, how %many were (ab)used for (enduring political) power grabs?
Might be easier to find some examples of some opportunistic profiteering here and there?
And downright evil examples of someone intently creating an ☣ outbreak to some Machiavellian (or worse) end?
What did in fact take place, what does history tell us?

Pertinently, what exactly would you expect or (realistically) want in case of an ☣ outbreak?

Evident/justified responses would carry far more weight than (wild or baseless) claims and conspiracy theories.

Ya' took a wrong turn somewhere, .
The auditions to The Twilight Zone (or whatever it is) are over that'a way (pointing).

That's just the usual run off at the mouth, .
Some things are known, and there are (historical) case studies.

, you asked

How’re those “social responses” working out? — NOS4A2

There were some sample moves/results. Subsequent to ...

Dump the blinkers [...] — jorndoe

We are still talking SARS-CoV-2/pandemic, right...?

Here's the thing: Why don't the vocal pro-vaccers (who claim to be taken hostage by the unvaccinated) put their money where their mouth is and limit health care (and other things) for the unvaccinated?

If the vocal pro-vaccers believe they are so right, so superior to the unvaccinated, then what on earth is stopping them from passing laws in accordance with that? — baker

"Doctor do no harm", "doctor help the sick", all that? Empathy/decency towards the ignorant/fearful/ungrateful? Ethics? I'm thinking there are a few reasons anyway.

^{• ‘So frustrating’: Doctors and nurses battle virus skeptics (Oct 8, 2020)
• Many COVID-19 patients insist ‘it’s not real’ until they die, nurse says (Nov 17, 2020)
• Nurses Are Dealing With Patients Who Think COVID-19’s A Hoax (Nov 25, 2020)
• 15 Infuriating Stories About Doctors Who Had To Diagnose A COVID-19 Denier With The Coronavirus (Apr 21, 2021)
• Companies mulling charging unvaccinated employees more for health coverage: report (Aug 14, 2021)
• ‘Crisis teams’ sent to hospitals in Oregon hard hit by COVID (Aug. 25, 2021)
• Largest real-world study of COVID-19 vaccine safety published (Aug 26, 2021)
• Anti-vaxxer mother and daughter die from Covid in Belfast hospital (Sep 16, 2021)
• A New Nurse Struggles to Save Patients in a New COVID Surge (Sep 16, 2021)}

How’re those “social responses” working out? — NOS4A2

Could be better, could be worse?

^{• The 3 Simple Rules That Underscore the Danger of Delta (Jul 1, 2021)
• States with low vaccination numbers had Covid-19 case rates last week 3 times higher than others where people are fully vaccinated (Jul 12, 2021)
• Vast majority of ICU patients with COVID-19 are unvaccinated, ABC News survey finds (Jul 29, 2021)
• Confirmed Cases of COVID-19 Following Vaccination in Ontario: December 14, 2020 to August 7, 2021 (Aug 16, 2021)
• To protect our kids from COVID-19, we have to be grown-ups (Aug 16, 2021)
• Vaccinations Against COVID-19 May Have Averted Up To 140,000 Deaths In The United States (Aug 18, 2021)
• Largest real-world study of COVID-19 vaccine safety published (Aug 26, 2021)
• Massive randomized study is proof that surgical masks limit coronavirus spread, authors say (Sep 1, 2021)
• CDC finds unvaccinated 11 times more likely to die of COVID (Sep 11, 2021)}

Such actions suggest people are more of a problem than Covid-19. — NOS4A2

There are definitely problematic humans out there. (Are you one of them?)

^{• The Wisconsin pharmacist who sabotaged 500 vaccine doses believes the Earth is flat and that the sky is a shield to stop us seeing God, according to FBI documents (Feb 2, 2021)
• 15 Infuriating Stories About Doctors Who Had To Diagnose A COVID-19 Denier With The Coronavirus (Apr 21, 2021)
• London transport staff warned of anti-mask posters with razor blades (Sep 9, 2021)
• UPDATE: Shock in Germany after cashier shot dead in Covid mask row (Sep 21, 2021)}

Dump the blinkers, . :) SARS-CoV-2 replicates, mutates, propagates unchecked wherever it finds fertile grounds, leaving a trail of victims (and taking up resources). And that's not merely a personal thing, but a social thing with consequences, whether you ignore so or not. Social troubles that involve social responses. (Not that masking up is much of a big deal.)

, so, no where in your thinking does SARS-CoV-2/pandemic show up? (It's as irrelevant as masking up is trivial?)

, please don't quit on my account. (Wide disagreement among subject matter experts? Consensus means little to nothing?)

, sure, I suppose the "personal freedom" thing can make a point of sorts. It's just that SARS-CoV-2 doesn't care about anyone's freedom. The virus replicates propagates mutates unchecked in whatever fertile grounds, leaving victims in its wake, and that's a social thing with consequences as well as personal.

:o cynical, that r/HermanCainAward thing

These individual stories do not produce conversions. These aren’t situations where anti-vaxxers learn their lesson, get vaccinated, and save themselves. — Lili Loofbourow

What this massive record of human suffering really illustrates (in all its startling, repetitive sameness) is how seamlessly anti-vax communities reconcile themselves to the deaths their convictions will perpetuate. — Lili Loofbourow

Chilled though I’ve been by how this subreddit can rejoice at a death, I’m somehow no less chilled by how easily the bereaved normalize their losses. A 35-year-old man with three young children and a free vaccine available should not be dead! There is astonishingly little recognition of this. — Lili Loofbourow

The incorrigibility is as striking as the cynicism, though.
Some of those folk are both entrenched and have their "warriors" (as we've observed).

schadenfreude — Lili Loofbourow

Apparently, this is now called "vaxenfreude".

, yeah, some mistakes have been made (especially in retrospect). As long as we learn from them, including those having made the mistakes.

Is it possible for everyone to be subject matter experts in it all...? Not really. I suppose we could quit having family doctors, engineers to engineer bridges, etc. Some measure of trust and cooperation is warranted and desirable, in tandem with responsibility and accountability.

Hospital to replace doctors with parents who have done their research (The Science Post; Jul 23, 2021)

(I sure as heck ain't gonna' take the advice of someone over in The Shoutbox over an established international panel of subject matter experts, and call it a day.)

:grin: Could always take a look , like Santayana suggested, whatever (medical) lessons learned, historical case-studies, all that? Doesn't have any dependency on me. By the way, "uneven" distribution is a problem. Treating others with dignity, trying to dispel fears, educating and keeping dis/mis/malinformation in check, ... (y)

There are (historical) case studies regarding pandemic protocols. I recall coming across some out there. They tend to inform (history is a great teacher, Santayana comes to mind). Some measure of common sense isn't to be scoffed at. The evidence is the authority here more so than some (unweighted) "he-said-she-said", the truth of the SARS-CoV-2/pandemic matter more so than some sort of radical cultural relativism. Would be kind of neat if the virus could just be argued away though. :smile:

, when you dismiss majority evidence with a handwave, then what difference do facts make to you? When you reject or ignore reasoning, then what difference does argument make to you? Nothing much, and with that you terminate dialogue, rather than discuss. :shrug:

Just ignore the history of medicine — Ambrosia

That's pretty much what I haven't been doing.
But, seeing you're impervious to facts and oblivious of faults, what does it matter?

_{• Tuberculosis therapy: past, present and future (Jan 25, 2002)
• Typhoid Mary: Villain or Victim? (Oct 16, 2013)
• Treatment of Tuberculosis. A Historical Perspective (Oct 14, 2015)
• History of Vaccines - Government Regulation (Jan 17, 2018)
• History of 1918 Flu Pandemic (Mar 21, 2018)
• Cases of measles and deaths per 100000, per year, in the United States over the 20th century (Jul 26, 2019)
• Measles (Dec 5, 2019)
• The 1918 Spanish flu killed 8,000 people in Colorado, but Gunnison only had 2 cases. Here’s why (Mar 4, 2020)
• How Typhoid Mary left a trail of scandal and death (Apr 20, 2020)
• Pandemics Throughout History (Jan 15, 2021)
• Spanish flu: the virus that changed the world (Mar 2, 2021)
• How the COVID-19 vaccines were created so quickly - Kaitlyn Sadtler and Elizabeth Wayne (5m:7s) (Aug 17, 2021)
• Nebraska Department of Health and Human Services: In 1954, polio was a terrifying reality (Sep 14, 2021)
• Measles - Timeline (Sep 15, 2021)
• International Organizations, Vaccine Manufacturers Agree to Intensify Cooperation to Deliver COVID-19 Vaccines (Sep 16, 2021)
(not that it matters, my tracker has 228 entries as of typing)}

, as far as I recall, outlawing and attempting to "cure" homosexuality has mostly come from religion.

Not aware of the conflict inflation fallacy I see — here, here.
_{(maybe not faulty generalization, prejudice, poisoning the well, invincible ignorance (and incorrigibility), "I'm entitled to my opinion", either)}

And here we are, communicating almost instantaneously worldwide over the Internet using complex electronic devices, where diabetes is no longer a slow death sentence, navigating using the Global Positioning System, having all-but eradicated cholera, enjoying electricity and clean water in the house, reasonably working treatments of schizophrenia thus far, ... (y)

Medicine/science informs, ethics/morals decides, policies/politics implements. — jorndoe

Science is descriptive/propositional, morals are proscriptive/performative. Conflating them all is just bad discourse.

, I guess ebola (a germ) would be just another day out in the woods to you? :D
There is such a thing as ignorance gone dangerous and incorrigibility makes it worse. (n)
You just don't do me any favors ya' hear.

Well, , you've already admitted the flu, measles, and whatever. :D

@Ambrosia, you believe viruses but not germ theory...? :brow:

Don't know much about it, but apparently Landauer's principle puts forth a relation between information and thermodynamics, i.e. quantification.
Not sure this covers the different uses of the term "information", though. Or how solid the relation is.

Evidently, meeting SARS-CoV-2 armed, i.e. vaccinated, beats meeting the virus unarmed. (y)
The unarmed has a higher chance of becoming a virus replication/propagation/mutation factory affecting others. ☣
And higher risk of getting sick (up to and including death). :death:
Anyway, it seems there are some emerging efforts to find vaccine exemptions, whatever may come of that.

I'm interested in questioning if the experts are worthy of trust. — Yohan

I guess some are more so, some less so, to varying degrees, ... Either way, it's worthwhile differentiating them, what they say, what they point at, the usual.

, I was just pinching your apparently universal statement.

This whole covid crisis has long since stopped being about the virus or health, but about people seeking ways to feel good and to feel safe. — baker

Beg to differ. Not everyone sticks their head in the sand. (Assuming I didn't misread your comment, which is entirely possible.)

The world is made of rotting things. — baker

And some growing/flourishing things?

Thanks for only sharing this now. Could have saved mine and others time, I imagine. — Yohan

We can always abstract things into irrelevance, cutting some corners/particulars here and there. We still have to deal with the current outbreak.

By the way, ad verecundiam/populum isn't quite applicable here. The world (nature, evidence) is the authority here anyway, that's what subject matter experts point at.

, how many (real life) examples do we have? With no workarounds?

There is the problem of when attending school is mandatory and (some) vaccines are mandatory for attending school. (And, for that matter, I guess school can be where ignorance is dispelled in the first place.) What now?

I haven't heard of police dragging anti-vaxxers off to a facility and forcefully vaccinating them. Anyone? The likes of kindergartens, schools, hospitals, military, is where vaccination has been mandatory (or at least some vaccinations have), for some time. I suppose the unvaccinated don't qualify for some things (the blind don't qualify for driver's license, either).
Reasonable, whether imposing/"discriminatory" or not. (y)

Another dilemma related to anti-vaxxers is parents choosing for their children. I guess a common example is Jehovah's Witnesses denying blood transfusions. The situation has also been treated by various fictional accounts, e.g. a Babylon 5 episode called Believers (science fiction can sometimes defuse taboos). We have real life examples of criminal negligence where peers imposed whatever their religious faiths were on others, disregarding medicine, kind of bordering on murder in a way.
Irrational/ignorant, and a bit creepy. (n)

Medicine/science informs, ethics/morals decides, policies/politics implements. Presently, getting vaccinated comes out on top. While partaking in society do we not also have at least some social obligations? Seems responsible to take part in stomping the pandemic down.

Works for me, I've never gotten covid, and if I did and died oh well, at least I died a free man. — Derrick Huestis

Though not free of the virus (which took your freedom).

We’ve seen what happens when we give the state the power to make our medical decisions, [...] — NOS4A2

Right, fair control or all-but eradication of cholera measles meningitis smallpox ebola typhus ...

None of that matters to me. — NOS4A2

Well, who cares?

I might have mentioned Baffin Bay, Greenland, before. Sneak off to the great Bay, make a wholly independent living there, free of social life and other people, no one else to take into account except the occasional polar bear and perhaps an Inuit now and then. (y)

...

There are people having died due to their denial, and parents whose kids have died, all preventable. :death: [...] During the pandemic, there's a heightened chance of pathogen-encounters. ☣ [...] being socially responsible, not being a loose cannon [...] What about taking part in stomping the pandemic down? — jorndoe

@Cheshire @baker @Srap Tasmaner ...

If we disagree and you are wrong –> demonstrably wrong –> demonstrably dangerously wrong, then is it "fascist" to defend myself, with violence if needs be, against being subjected to the imminent danger/s which you (e.g. anti-vaxxers) advocate or present? — 180 Proof

(y) ("No", I mean :smile:)

London transport staff warned of anti-mask posters with razor blades (Sep 9, 2021) :o

People going to such lengths over masking up have more than just lost perspective (if they ever had any). Sure, they'd have to be way out extremists. I'd be somewhat reluctant to feed their fanaticism.

against demonstrably (dangerously) wrong ≠ fascism

, if you were hired to make deniers and conspiracy theorists look worse, then it might just be working. (y) Keep up the good work. ;)

We are all lumps of cells — Gregory

A lump of cells the size of a cherry ain't a person. My neighbor's kid is. — jorndoe

Well, if you can't differentiate ↑ then so be it. Others can.

Yes it is. — Gregory

Nah, it ain't.

A lump of cells the size of a cherry ain't a person. My neighbor's kid is.
Deciding what a person is (under the law, such a law), may be (somewhat) arbitrary, but not wholly arbitrary.

A couple months in, a fetus is a lump of cells about the size of a cherry, something like that, I think.

Because it grows into a formed person. The formation has started at conception. — Gregory

Sure, yet egg + sperm isn't a person.

Are you for saying that it's not a person before birth but is after? That's arbitrary. — Gregory

It's not a person a couple months in. That's not an arbitrary assessment. I guess various legislations set various timeframes, like 3 months or a bit more, after which abortion requires extraordinary conditions.

How's this? Males that don't express they want children get a reversible vasectomy or something to that effect?
Yes yes, there'd be more to work out about this, but before we even start putting it all on the females I want both parents sharing responsibility here, so it's just the humble beginning of taking such a path. Males don't get to paw it all off to females and decide for them.

Stop thinking of yourself as a good person. You’re not. Hardly anyone is. My own arrogance doesn’t even extend to that assumption about myself. — AJJ

...tf? :brow:

So there are some people here and there that could a bit of extra help, psychological in this case apparently. Numbers/reports/contexts?

You skipped ...

Presumably, you're not going to sue SARS-CoV-2? What about taking part in stomping the pandemic down?

There are people having died due to their denial, and parents whose kids have died, all preventable. :death:
Sometimes words might not make much difference.
At large, people just aren't (full-time or perhaps even half-time) rational, or at least evidently can't be expected to be.
Maybe some sort of more direct (or ongoing) participation (or similar exposure) would be more beneficial, who knows.

"You can make a difference by helping elderlies to and from the vaccine clinic"
"Please help us operate and document vaccine administration at the hospital"
"This week you have the opportunity of winning $2000 by getting the vaccine"

During the pandemic, there's a heightened chance of pathogen-encounters. ☣
I suppose you're entitled to choose infection for yourself (however weird that'd be, and not what others would want for you I'm sure), but you're not free to further increase chances of spread or putting others in danger thus.
Most/all are rather encouraged or obligated to decrease all that, and we have reasonable ways of going about it.
Doesn't have much to do with fear or panic or evil tyrant authoritarian government or conformism for conformism's sake or whatever bullshit; has to do with common sense, doing the right thing, being socially responsible, not being a loose cannon, and history is a fine teacher.
Presumably, you're not going to sue SARS-CoV-2? What about taking part in stomping the pandemic down?

When so-called civil liberties groups bend the knee to state power, it’s basically over — NOS4A2

... mostly for the virus? :)

COVID-19 isn't the first pandemic the world has faced — TheMadFool

(y) It seems though, that some don't learn from history.

There have been crazies all along for sure.
Some forms of vaccination were used a millennium ago in China, but it didn't really take off until much later, the 1800s then the 1900s in particular.
Religious and other anti-vaxxers have pretty much followed suit, as far as I can tell.

And politicians [...] have been working hard for decades to destroy people's trust in politics — baker

Voters empower politicians, hire politicians to do a job. Pick untrustworthy people to do a politician's job, and you've shot yourself in the foot. If this fellow once said 2 questionable things, and that fellow 22 questionable things, then it's easy to dismiss both equally without getting into what they said (+ context).

And [...] the medical establishment have been working hard for decades to destroy people's trust in [...] medicine — baker

Right, to an extent anyway. It's hardly a black-and-white thing. Antibiotics, insulin, antihistamines, covid-19 vaccines, etc, are (justifiably) trusted enough. Some are called out.
_{• Meet the guy behind the $750 AIDS drug (Sep 22, 2015)
• The rise and fall of Valeant Pharmaceuticals (Mar 14, 2017)
• Pharma CEO jacks drug price 400%, citing “moral requirement to make money” (Sep 11, 2018)
• These Senators Received The Biggest Checks From Pharma Companies Testifying Tuesday (Feb 26, 2019)
• Democrat Katie Porter accuses pharma CEO of inflating drug prices and 'lying' to patients and policymakers — all with the help of her whiteboard (May 18, 2021)}

Some would argue that (free) supply and demand capitalism can drive what works.
Maybe there's a question of how ethics fit into all that.
Are (more) campaigning/advertising/accountability rules then warranted?

, looks to me like explained.
Maybe it's just that a temporally/spatially "limited" world goes against our intuitions — the principle of sufficient reason.
Apply sufficient reason to everything/anything, and you'll get "something extra" (which is ampliative nonsense, since everything/anything already is all-inclusive), or you get a self-reference, or you delineate the principle (which I think may have my vote at the moment).
After all, the principle of sufficient reason is neither verifiable nor falsifiable (check Watkins' "all-and-some" statements), and since it's easily ampliative metaphysics, some care/suspicion is warranted.