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  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    but the second shot rolled her socks for 18 hours and she thought she was going to die — James Riley

    Right, yeah, the day-after-downtime is common enough I think, often after the 2nd vaccination. It's usually advertised by those administering the vaccinations.
  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    And no consideration is given as to why a person didn't get vaccinated — baker

    Maybe, maybe not? What do you think? It's usually easy enough to identify people that require special medical attention. (Maybe ridiculous conspiracy theories are special conditions.) Actually, I think trying to round up medical conditions is standard procedure; maybe @frank or someone knows.

    somehow, covid vaccines are a stellar exemption — baker

    Keep up. Some known suspects include allergy, blood clotting, adverse reactions in some children. But, saying "hey, it works, which can't be right" doesn't work.

    I guess @NOS4A2 had nothing to say on the topic. :-/
  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    Do you believe hospitals should deny people healthcare because they are unvaccinated? — NOS4A2

    Me personally? Well, no, but that's irrelevant, and still wasn't the question.

    The board of hospitals decides that ...

    The one vaccinated gets the one bed left, in priority over the other who deliberately chose not to be vaccinated (and may have to be isolated in a hallway, sent home, or whatever) — jorndoe
    For/against then? — jorndoe

    Not quite a trolley problem, see earlier comments.

    There are examples of hospitals running full, and this is a possibly extreme example given earlier:

    Georgia cop who pushed people to take horse dewormer instead of vaccine dies from COVID-19 (Aug 27, 2021) — jorndoe
  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    ↪NOS4A2
    , I guess we're talking past each other.

    unvaccinated infected (majority, ↓ priority) ≠ vaccinated infected (minority, ↑ priority)
  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    I'm against denying people medical services. — NOS4A2

    OK, but that wasn't quite the question, though.
    In this case there aren't enough of them - beds/resources (actually, some of this is non-hypothetical).
    Hence ...

    The board of hospitals makes such a decision.
    For/against then?
    — jorndoe
  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    I'm not against that. I'm against governments forcing people to do that. — NOS4A2

    Scale it up.
    The board of hospitals makes such a decision.
    For/against then? (anti-government rhetoric aside)
  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    1. You don't have time to deal with any of this — frank

    Right, when things are happening, there's no time to waste, including checking whether an incoming person is un/vaccinated.
    That being said, @Benkei's point seems fair enough.
    (Not that it matters, personally, I can see why, seems a fair consequence, though I haven't worked out if my conscience can run with that.)
    The one vaccinated gets the one bed left, in priority over the other who deliberately chose not to be vaccinated (and may have to be isolated in a hallway, sent home, or whatever).
    Regardless of whatever analogies, such considerations are still on the table.

    Georgia cop who pushed people to take horse dewormer instead of vaccine dies from COVID-19 (Aug 27, 2021)
  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    Vehemently against — NOS4A2

    Quick follow-up, FMI.
    Suppose a family had decided not to let unvaccinated (or untested / unmasked / not following protocols) into their home.
    Would you be against that?
    (I mean, not so much a matter of "it's their choice in their own home", but in terms of reasons for being "Vehemently against")
  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    My impression is that many places, like (elementary) schools and military, have used "vaccine passports" of some sort for a long time.
    Don't have numbers though, but it does make some sense, doesn't it?



    j5ksioeyfa3fn620.jpg
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    Head over to this parallel post ⇒ Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic ⇐ hit some buttons (y) (n) and let's see what the forum members think at large.



    A Jan-Jun 2021 probe somewhere out there ...
    FEATURE-COVID-19-Vaccine-Monitor-In-Their-Own-Words_1.png
    ... via KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor: In Their Own Words, Six Months Later (Jul 13, 2021)
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    I'm seeing some accusations of hypocrisy (double standards) here, while at the same time committing a two-wrongs-make-a-right fallacy. :meh:
  • Coronavirus
    Head over to this parallel post ⇒ Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic ⇐ hit some buttons (y) (n) and let's see what the forum members think at large.



    A Jan-Jun 2021 probe somewhere out there ...
    FEATURE-COVID-19-Vaccine-Monitor-In-Their-Own-Words_1.png
    ... via KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor: In Their Own Words, Six Months Later (Jul 13, 2021)
  • Poll: (2020-) COVID-19 pandemic
    Question 3 in full, since it appears to be truncated:

    Mandatory vaccination (or frequent testing) in some settings (e.g. packed offices, schools, hospitals)
  • Coronavirus
    Sorry
    ↪Isaac
    , I may play your games some other time.

    FYI, here are a couple reports that may or may not support some of your assertions:

    Conscientious vaccination exemptions in kindergarten to eighth-grade children across Texas schools from 2012 to 2018: A regression analysis (Mar 10, 2020)

    Mistrust of the medical profession and higher disgust sensitivity predict parental vaccine hesitancy (Sep 2, 2020)

    They're a bit early for the current pandemic I suppose.
  • Coronavirus
    Just if it wasn't clear, in this context, speaking of harmless/harmful isn't the same as when speaking of Dihydrogen Monoxide. — jorndoe

    Largest real-world study of COVID-19 vaccine safety published (Aug 26, 2021)


    ↪Isaac
    , the comment was explicitly using broader categories:

    Yeah, most reports show that more education and vaccine acceptance (less education and vaccine hesitance) correlate.
    The delimiters are typically high school and college, and far from all are done with detailed rigor and checks.
    (Seems biased to dismiss those reports.)
    Granted, you can find some that show differently than that, though they're a minority.

    People having changed their minds almost always go from hesitance to acceptance.
    Some reports suggest a "hard core" that never change their minds.
    (In different areas, incorrigibility seems correlated with radical/extreme views.)

    One report found that fear of side effects was the most common reason for hesitance.
    — jorndoe
  • Coronavirus
    Not clear what your trying to say here — Isaac

    There isn't much to it.

    Did you select them accidentally then? — Isaac

    Nope, I selected whatever demographics-related reports.
  • Coronavirus
    deliberately selecting — Isaac

    I didn't.
  • Coronavirus
    prophylactic medicine — Isaac

    Just if it wasn't clear, in this context, speaking of harmless/harmful isn't the same as when speaking of Dihydrogen Monoxide.
  • Coronavirus
    I'm seeing some accusations of hypocrisy here, while at the same time committing a two-wrongs-make-a-right fallacy.


    The PhD hesitancy rate is curious — Hanover

    Yeah, most reports show that more education and vaccine acceptance (less education and vaccine hesitance) correlate.
    The delimiters are typically high school and college, and far from all are done with detailed rigor and checks.
    (Seems biased to dismiss those reports.)
    Granted, you can find some that show differently than that, though they're a minority.

    People having changed their minds almost always go from hesitance to acceptance.
    Some reports suggest a "hard core" that never change their minds.
    (In different areas, incorrigibility seems correlated with radical/extreme views.)

    One report found that fear of side effects was the most common reason for hesitance.
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    :D


    God hates masks. They violate the first commandment which is to remember his glory. And what is more glorious than his image which is reflected in man, who he made in that glorious image. God wants his full image on full display. That little drape of cloth that covers the expression of his image casts the world into darkness. — Kyle D Mallester
    Resurrection School students took the message to heart, many of them showing up naked for classes the next day. — Phillip T Stephens

    Catholic School Opens Nudity Door (Jul 22, 2021)


    At press time, Ackrite refused to answer whether or not she had emptied her bowels on the living room floor, arguing that her refusal to divulge such information was protected by the courts.

    Toddler Cites Freedom Of Choice In Refusal To Use Potty (Aug 11, 2021)
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    honesty — frank

    ... matters. (y)

    There's no interest in persuasion here at all, nothing but pious flag-waiving - if people seriously wanted to convince others to vaccinate, they might want to consider carefully presenting the scientific evidence on risk, or addressing the moral arguments on responsibility, rather than chanting like a bunch of football hooligans. — Isaac

    The information is available, there's just no accounting for stupidity, and mis/dis/mal-information.

    What has knowing 'some stuff' got to do with a claim that the vaccine is harmless and the virus not? Your own citation outlines the very uncertainty I referenced. — Isaac

    Already clarified once, here "harmless" isn't the same as "something you never interact with", suspects listed included allergy, blood clotting, adverse reactions in some children. Not playing a semantics game where you decontextualize and seemingly pretend to not understand.

    Your defensiveness betrays your lack of confidence — Isaac

    Mind-reading? Bullshit again. (not that it matters, but most people around here, including me, have been double-vaccinated)

    entitled to take risks — Isaac

    You're entitled to think you can fly and safely jump off a skyscraper, and that governments have crafted mind-control with vaccines. I don't think there's any particular law against stupidity, and that's what father and son were - stupid. Emphasized now if it wasn't clear in the original comment:

    I guess ... something ... runs in that family. — jorndoe

    Is it worthwhile repeating what others have already pointed out?

    Placing myself at risk is one thing. Placing others at risk is another. — James Riley

    Some have just had it with the seemingly endless conspiracy theories and ignorance.

    • How Typhoid Mary left a trail of scandal and death (Apr 20, 2020) - history is a fine teacher
    • Study Finds More COVID-19 Cases Among Viewers Of Fox News Host Who Downplayed Pandemic (May 4, 2020)
    • Their Patients Have COVID-19 and Still Think It’s a Hoax - Nurses treating coronavirus skeptics are being spit on and harassed. Many want to quit. (Nov 25, 2020)
    • Persuasion, not coercion or incentivisation, is the best means of promoting COVID-19 vaccination (Jan 26, 2021)
    • 15 Infuriating Stories About Doctors Who Had To Diagnose A COVID-19 Denier With The Coronavirus (Apr 21, 2021)
    • The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot (Jul 25, 2021)
    • The vaccinated are angry. That's understandable but unproductive, health experts say (Aug 8, 2021)
    • Vaccine Outrage: Why the Delta Variant’s ‘Sudden Doom Effect’ Is Making Us Snap (Aug 10, 2021)
    • Companies mulling charging unvaccinated employees more for health coverage: report (Aug 14, 2021) - I suppose this was to be expected eventually
    • Parent rips face mask off teacher in confrontation at school, Texas district says (Aug 19, 2021) - let them cool off behind bars for a bit with drug dealers
    • An Alabama doctor watched patients reject the coronavirus vaccine. Now he’s refusing to treat them. (Aug 18, 2021) - maybe a bit heavyhanded but making a point
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    ↪frank
    , would you have me clarify something like, yes, life is lethal, but that's not what I meant?

    suggests lack of proportional sense
    There's no magic :sparkle: spell

    Maybe a quick overview of some related history would be worthwhile? Typhoid Mary? The 1918 flu pandemic? Sentiments like some of those expressed here aren't particularly new. History is a fine teacher, has an odd way of repeating itself.



    Whatever 2021 reports ...
    • COVID-19 Vaccines Work. Here’s the Real-World Proof (Feb 24, 2021)
    • One Year After Coronavirus Pandemic Declared, How Many Deaths From Covid-19? (Mar 13, 2021)
    • Researchers are closing in on long covid (Apr 29, 2021)
    • Impact of vaccination on new SARS-CoV-2 infections in the United Kingdom (Jun 9, 2021)
    • SARS-CoV-2 Delta VOC in Scotland: demographics, risk of hospital admission, and vaccine effectiveness (Jun 26, 2021)
    • States with low vaccination numbers had Covid-19 case rates last week 3 times higher than others where people are fully vaccinated (Jul 12, 2021)
    • 'The sky is not falling': Provincetown outbreak shows vaccines work, even against Delta (Jul 30, 2021)
    • Natural infection isn't enough to protect against COVID-19, experts say. You still need a vaccine. (Aug 11, 2021)
    • San Diego County Covid-19 hospitalizations. (Aug 12, 2021)
    • Confirmed Cases of COVID-19 Following Vaccination in Ontario: December 14, 2020 to August 7, 2021 (Aug 16, 2021)
    • Vaccinations Against COVID-19 May Have Averted Up To 140,000 Deaths In The United States (Aug 18, 2021)
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    Whats the big deal here? If you want it take it. If you dont dont take it. — Prishon

    I guess it's a social thing. Not the same as pizza with pineapple. There are social consequences to take into account as well.

    vf8z5t9nav2p6kpr.jpg
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    That's not true unfortunately. There are risks. — frank

    Well, yes, everyone already knows. Minimal. Don't have numbers handy, but suspect stupidity have those risks outdone. (By the way, whenever we've had flu shots in the past, one of the questions was always about allergies.)

    • Suspicions grow that nanoparticles in Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine trigger rare allergic reactions (Dec 21, 2020)
    • COVID-19 Vaccines: 6 Vaccine Myths Explained (Mar 8, 2021)
    • Teen boy dies a few days after receiving second COVID vaccine shot (Jun 26, 2021)
    • Three things to know about the long-term side effects of COVID vaccines (Jul 6, 2021)
    • BLOOD CLOTTING, COVID-19 AND VACCINES (Jul 7, 2021)
    • The Johnson & Johnson Vaccine and Blood Clots: What You Need to Know (Aug 4, 2021)

    What a ridiculous thing to say — Isaac

    Nah, it ain't. Comment ↑ suggests lack of proportional sense. :eyes: We already know some stuff.

    • Children with long covid (Feb 27, 2021)
    • When will children under 12 be vaccinated against COVID-19? (Jul 6, 2021)
    • Should children get COVID vaccines? What the science says (Jul 20, 2021)

    they chose to try and do without prophylactic medicine — Isaac

    They were conspiracy theorists thinking in terms of mind control or whatever ridiculous nonsense. Now they're dead. :death: RIP.

    conflicts with WHO advice — Isaac

    Already spoke to risks. There's no magic :sparkle: spell. Everyone already knows, including WHO.

    I call bullshit :point: @Isaac
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    ↪Isaac
    , the vaccine is harmless, the virus ain't, and apparently conspiracy theories (and certain religious faiths) ain't either. The father and son could have lived on to be stupid another day, but chose (the "rush" of) drowning in their own blood. (Worth it? Not according to their family.)

    That’s where he [the son] died of COVID on August 3 – never getting the vaccine because he thought it was a government conspiracy. Now, she’s [the wife of the dead son is] pleading with the public to get the vaccine. After Stevenson’s death on August 3, one of his sons who was also choosing to not get vaccinated, finally went and got the shot. — Kaitor Kay/KFOR

    As an aside, someone wrote a piece comparing the deniers with various cults. Where the included cults could be characterized as suicide cults, the deniers were more like a homicide cult. A tad hyperbolic, but I can see their argument. Detroiter Jason Hargrove ain't forgotten. RIP.

    The deniers are fertile ground for the virus to "live on", spread mutate kill, much to the frustration of medical workers.
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    same with motorsports — Isaac

    Some just can't get enough rush from virus infections...?
  • Anti-vaccination: Is it right?
    Man refused to get vaccinated even after his own father died of COVID – now he’s dead from COVID too (Aug 19, 2021)

    I guess ... something ... runs in that family.
  • Should the state be responsible for healthcare?
    I don't have a problem paying taxes so that a kid somewhere can get surgery.
    Why would I?
    Found in many civilized societies.
  • Kalam Arguments and Causal Principles
    Whatever begins to exist has a cause (for its existence) — Ghost Light

    A special case of the principle of sufficient reason.

    So, the thrust is to derive something that does not fall under the premise, something immutable or atemporal.
    This, in turn, implies inert, lifeless (perhaps even kind of boring).
    The closest that comes to mind is abstracts, but, either way, nothing resembling mind (experiencing, thinking, etc).
    Those wishing to promote a sentient being (outside the premise), would then entertain special pleading, or have to take a path analogous to a multiverse type thing (unparsimonious, "orthogonal temporality"?).



    ↪jgill
    , in modal logic, a possible world is just a self-consistent whole.
    This expression thereof can make reasoning easier.
  • Madness is rolling over Afghanistan
    If legit, give that 2nd guy a medal and interview him as a role model showing the right thing to do.
    The thread has comments on Australian forces.

  • Madness is rolling over Afghanistan
    I'm thinking the main concern is the regular Afghan, the future.
    The Taliban are kind of disparate, in that what the "top" states in public don't reflect what some (tribal) Taliban guys actually do without repercussions.
    What might be done in the interest of the regular Afghan? Nothing?

    • The fall of Afghanistan is the result of a financial judgement (upd Aug 16, 2021)
    • Afghanistan’s all-girls robotics team ‘begging’ Canada to help escape Taliban (Aug 17, 2021)
  • Madness is rolling over Afghanistan
    Pls America kindly fuck off from the face of the Earth outside of America kthx. — StreetlightX

    @StreetlightX, you really should open a new post about the follies of the US.

    The evil presidents, "world police", pandemic mis/handling, war profiteering, (mad) political system, leaked (otherwise withheld/denied) wickedness, colonialist empire-building, "Big Pharma", fascist discrimination, genocidal'ish foreign policy/action, ... Plenty (sub)topics to analyze.
  • Madness is rolling over Afghanistan
    Record number of refugees fleeing to Afghanistan
    Aug 17, 2021

    KABUL, AFGHANISTAN—After the successful installation of the Taliban government in Afghanistan, their new offices and processing centers have received more refugees, VISA and citizen applications than they currently have capacity for.

    "We have families with young children living in tents right outside", said Ahmad Qahar, an official of the Afghan immigration agency, pointing at the would-be shanty town outside.

    The unprecedented situation has put a heavy strain on Afghan resources, and they have approached the UN for assistance.

    "With the uncertain future and potential dangers, our family quickly decided to get on the first plane to Kabul", said Mei Cy, a Singaporean national. Similar sentiments have been expressed all around the globe, like Yael (from an unspecified Middle Eastern region) and Swedish Björn, who wished to otherwise remain anonymous.

    With the US finally opening their borders for residents wanting to exit, the Taliban authorities could be faced with a larger influx still, and, without help from the international community, the fall could see humanitarian disasters.
  • What can replace God??
    So what you suggest is [...] — dimosthenis9

    ... that religious texts don't define morals, aren't authoritative, and the diverse gods aren't around, are useless/irrelevant in the matter.

    It's on us, always was, so we better cultivate and nurture moral awareness.

    Prescribed rule-following maintained by hope for eternal bliss (reward, safety), and fear of damnation forevermore (punishment, threat), doesn't make a person moral, though it could make them scary/dangerous. It’s merely motivated self-interest. Sure, if there are persons out there that would misbehave if not for a virtual leash (hope for, or fear of, otherworldly consequences), then, by all means, they should remain leashed.
  • What can replace God??
    What can replace God?? — dimosthenis9

    Reality? Truth? Learning?
    We can pass moral judgment on religious texts, they therefore do not define morals.
    If the diverse religious adherents didn't speak on their behalfs, the gods would become silent.
  • Madness is rolling over Afghanistan
    FYI ...

    "The Exodus from Kabul"

    Chaos at Kabul Airport

    "Inside a US transport taking off from Kabul. Extraordinary."
  • Madness is rolling over Afghanistan
    I wonder what the situation might now be if, say, one of those trillions had been used to foster a very large number of Afghani teenagers for a few months in a western country. — Banno

    Great idea.
    Use some on mining, farming (not opium), schools, teachers.
    Don't know how easy/difficult all that would have been some 20 years back.
    A decade ago, it might have been easy enough, maybe.
  • Madness is rolling over Afghanistan
    There are a few historically and politically savvy people around here. — jorndoe

    And a bit of ranters ranting. :)

    Afghanistan Falls To Taliban Couple Hours Earlier Than Expected (Aug 16, 2021)

    Afghanistan's untold story: Stability, tourists, miniskirts (Aug 19, 2009)

    To my understanding, the next generation of Taliban are considerably less intransigent and fanatical than the previous one, and, so, the fears of what the upcoming regime will be like are kind of overblown. — thewonder

    Let's hope so. (y) They now have iPhones, not quite a rejection of non-archaic/medieval life. Involving them, talking, showing, etc, might help some.
  • Madness is rolling over Afghanistan
    We'll see if the Taliban movement has improved, which would be a welcome development.

    Say, don't prevent whoever (not just mothers with children) from leaving, and taking their belongings with them. Allow anyone to discontinue membership of their religious ideology, implement opt-in. Set up a reasonably fair and impartial court/legal system, equal for all. ...

    Wikipedia » Taliban » Condemned practices
  • Madness is rolling over Afghanistan
    ↪thewonder
    , sure, I guess "the West" took part in getting the Taliban going - the USSR, the US, Pakistan, ...
    Either way, the movement was and is religiously motivated, and currently on a crusade.
    They're not inherently Afghan, though, they have presence/networks in neighboring countries as well.

    The UN has asked the Taliban to chill - not going to happen, probably hardly even heard.
    With fairly well-defined borders and no external resistance/interference, their goal is in sight.

    They have been confronted by whoever before, and cries for help ain't new.
    Uncertain/unpleasant future for some, Sharia for all.
    Hopefully, the Taliban caliphate won't be as bad as Daesh.

    Many Americans understandably don't want to send their young people off into a fire across the globe, and return missing a foot.

    Anyway, "the religious students" will have a country of their own, to do with as they like.
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