People going to such lengths over masking up have more than just lost perspective (if they ever had any). Sure, they'd have to be way out extremists. — jorndoe

I never really did the mask thing, used it a few times in Walmart and some other places but it quickly became unnecessarily to wear it. I think they give some people anxiety, so it isn't that they are extremists, it's more of a psychology issue. Personally, I find masks depressing, I'm glad I haven't hardly needed to use them.

...

There are people having died due to their denial, and parents whose kids have died, all preventable. :death: [...] During the pandemic, there's a heightened chance of pathogen-encounters. ☣ [...] being socially responsible, not being a loose cannon [...] What about taking part in stomping the pandemic down? — jorndoe

You've obviously never met people who live in the country, there's a lot out there to kill someone, but doesn't stop them one bit. I've met a guy who as a teenager tried helping save a calf in the winter, got a bacterial infection from the calf in his brain, nearly died and lives the rest of his life thinking/moving very slow because of the brain damage, that one was preventable, but nobody changes course they keep doing their thing.

Sometimes, I think people trade physical well-being for psychological well being. People in the country might be considered stupid for their stance, but at least they are far happier than those in the city with so many rules and mandates.

For me, I chose what works for me. I took the vaccine and use the mask when obligated, which isn't often. Works for me, I've never gotten covid, and if I did and died oh well, at least I died a free man.

If we disagree and you are wrong –> demonstrably wrong –> demonstrably dangerously wrong, then is it "fascist" to defend myself, with violence if needs be, against being subjected to the imminent danger/s which you (e.g. anti-vaxxers) advocate or present? — 180 Proof

No, self defense has a legal definition. I'm not sure how I made this list or if it's composed of dangerous anti-vaxxers. The OP list 3 or 4 different ideas and suggest those that hold them are lesser people. I was stressing a cautionary principle against putting people in groups and devaluing them collectively. It was acknowledged, but not really embraced. Simply, don't become the monster you seek to defeat.

Simply, don't become the monster you seek to defeat. — Cheshire

Better yet, don't create the monster that you don't want to fight.

I'm not just talking about covid and vax. I'm talking about the way the right treats the left when the right is in charge. What goes around, comes around. Try a little compassion, empathy, consideration, respect. Otherwise you end up creating people like me: not really the touchy-feely lib.

I'm not just talking about covid and vax. I'm talking about the way the right treats the left when the right is in charge. What goes around, comes around. Try a little compassion, empathy, consideration, respect. Otherwise you end up creating people like me: not really the touchy-feely lib. — James Riley

I actually agree more than my position in this thread would suggest. It's painful to watch the left gain power and fracture or pander to the center. I would be all up for using an any means necessary under the law approach to politically crush a lot of what the right seeks to do. In reference to anti-civil liberties and voter repression. I just won't hate them while I do it.

I just won't hate them while I do it. — Cheshire

I agree. Hate is the difference between dehumanization and devaluation. The professional has a hard time looking objectively at the job that needs to be done when he's got his hate all spun up. But the job that needs to be done can be misinterpreted as hate, especially by those who are uncomfortable with crushing a lot of what the other side seeks to do, not to mention how the other side perceives it when their pet privileges is getting crushed. Notice how they then pivot from tough-guy-asshole to "reasonable, moderate, let's-all be calm and logical as we approach this." Some even take up the banner of peace and forgiveness. Fine. But your shit still needs to be crushed.

What a curious reaction. — Tom Storm

It's the one I often get from you.

It does matter when it effects other people. These ideas do effect the other people. So no, you're not "free to it" at that point. I can't act in a way that harms others, regardless of my beliefs. — Xtrix

So why don't you sue them?

Prove that what they are doing is reckless endangerment or even deliberate endangerment, and sue them, like every decent American would do.



Oh, and "to affect" and "to effect" are two different verbs.

So we aren't devaluing people, but rather attitudes, beliefs, and so on. — frank

Given that people typically identify themselves with their beliefs, their attitudes, etc., to question those beliefs is to hurt those people.

- - -

Sometimes, I think people trade physical well-being for psychological well being. — Derrick Huestis

I think people often do that. Even as a rule.

If we disagree and you are wrong –> demonstrably wrong –> demonstrably dangerously wrong, then is it "fascist" to defend myself, with violence if needs be, against being subjected to the imminent danger/s which you (e.g. anti-vaxxers) advocate or present? — 180 Proof

What on earth are you talking about??!!

Matters of public health should not be left to individual citizens to decide, simply because they are too complex for an ordinary citizen to have the proper grasp of them, and too important to be left to lay public discourse and individual decision.

The government should make a decision and make it mandatory for people to comply. — baker

Infectuous diseases (esp. those with potentially fatal outcomes) are a matter of public health, and therefore, cannot be left to the individual to decide about. They should be regulated at least by laws, but preferrably, by the constitution.

The focus on personal choice is nothing but an attempt to shift the burden of responsibility on the individual person, releasing doctors, science, and the government from responsibility, all under the guise of "respecting the individual's right to choice". — baker

I'm not against vaccination in general, nor against vaccination against covid in particular.

But I am against vaccinating people of unknown medical status with an experimental medication.

And I am against vaccinating people in epidemiologically unsafe conditions. At mass vaccination sites, but also in smaller vaccination settings, people often don't wear masks, or don't wear them properly, they don't social distance, disinfect. It's a perfect place to spread the virus. And this at a time that is critical for the people there: they can get infected precisely at the time when they should be most cautious and most safe. Ideally, a person should go into sufficiently long quarantene prior to vaccination and afterwards. Some will say that this is not realistic. But then we get the result: covid hospitals filling with vaccinated people. The trend is clear: as more and more people are getting vaccinated in unsafe conditions, more and more vaccinated people end up in hospitals. — baker

If your aim is to change people's minds (and you've said it is), then the responsibility to do so is on you, not on them to comply.


It's on you to spell out what exactly it is that you want, and then act in ways that will lead to your goal.

It's painful to watch the left gain power and fracture or pander to the center. I would be all up for using an any means necessary under the law approach to politically crush a lot of what the right seeks to do. In reference to anti-civil liberties and voter repression. I just won't hate them while I do it. — Cheshire

There are no leftists in mainstream American politics. There are just different varieties of right-wing authoritarianism. It's what makes American Republicans, Democrats, and Liberals so similar.

I can only speak for myself. Feeling indignant is far more annoying than it is orgasmic; in fact it is not orgasmic at all. If I ever get to the point where I think righteous indignation is better than sex then I'll know I'm no longer enjoying life very much. — Janus

Well, look at so many people in these discussions: they brim with righteous indignation, they seek it.

There are no leftists in mainstream American politics. There are just different varieties of right-wing authoritarianism. It's what makes American Republicans, Democrats, and Liberals so similar. — baker

Andrew Yang?

He's hardly a mainstream politician, hasn't made it very high up in his political career.

This is misleading. Try arguing both-sides to the flat earth “debate.” It simply looks ridiculous there. — Xtrix

I stated a truism. I'm not misleading

But most of the time, our real choice lies in who we deem trustworthy— because we can’t be questioning everything at all times, and we can’t do “deep dives” into every medical, mechanical, scientific, or physical issue that we face— we rely on those with the requisite experience, knowledge, expertise to guide us as we get on with our lives. — Xtrix

It's good to keep a level of skepticism for all people at all times.. Because basically nobody is totally rational or virtuous.

To argue that both sides are equally irrational is irrational. — Xtrix

I meant to say that both sides, those who are married to mainstream narratives, and those married to counter-mainstream narratives can both be immune to facts. Being married to a narrative is irrational in itself. Why marry any narrative?

Cheshire baker @Srap Tasmaner ...

If we disagree and you are wrong –> demonstrably wrong –> demonstrably dangerously wrong, then is it "fascist" to defend myself, with violence if needs be, against being subjected to the imminent danger/s which you (e.g. anti-vaxxers) advocate or present? — 180 Proof

Not sure what's going on here. I'm actually in favor of vaccine mandates.

I'd be really curious to know why you think I'm an anti-vaxxer -- if you do, the grammar here's a little unclear to me.

Not sure what's going on here. I'm actually in favor of vaccine mandates.

I'd be really curious to know why you think I'm an anti-vaxxer — Srap Tasmaner

Same here.

I gather that because I didn't exibit an enthusiastic belief in vaccination, that automatically made me an anti-vaxxer in their eyes. And from then on, they see fit to hurl all kinds of insults and accusations at me, and they ignore everything I say that doesn't fit their hasty image of me.

Andrew Yang? — Cheshire

He only counts as "left wing" if that means "not a Republican".

Sanders supporters were convinced Yang was a libertarian trojan horse. Nobody on the left, or that thinks of themselves as on the left, ever had time for him. He likes capitalism.

Yeah I just noticed that.

So, hey, @180 Proof, wtf?

I gather that because I didn't exibit an enthusiastic belief in vaccination, that automatically made me an anti-vaxxer in their eyes. — baker

It's kinda like the "black face of white supremacy" thing, the words don't mean what the words mean. It's just a tricky deceitful way to discredit people to push a political agenda.

Works for me, I've never gotten covid, and if I did and died oh well, at least I died a free man. — Derrick Huestis

Though not free of the virus (which took your freedom).

You've obviously never met people who live in the country, there's a lot out there to kill someone, but doesn't stop them one bit. — Derrick Huestis

Born and raised. And I know us rural folk are the first to run to Uncle Sugar's tit, and we rely on anti-biotics like crazy (for us, not just livestock). As to happiness, I've found it's relative presence rather evenly spread around the world. You are correct, though: I wouldn't trade the sticks for city living. Freedom ain't worth shit if you don't have a place to be free in. Some folks just like the company of other people. I want to keep them there, and not out here. One way to do that, is to help them weather this shit storm.

Though not free of the virus (which took your freedom). — jorndoe

Nobody is free from death, but we can be triumphant in it. Socrates, Jesus, early Christian martyrs (the famous first Stephen)--their names and stories have remained with us for thousands of years, immortalized, because they didn't fear death. You're free to be a coward, but I've said elsewhere, although I don't have a death wish and will do basic things to protect myself, I will not let fear control my life. Death is not my enemy, living a worthless life, holed up in a room afraid of the dangerous world outside is worth than death, so death by some virus is more than welcome to come for me if this is the alternative.

Given that people typically identify themselves with their beliefs, their attitudes, — baker

That's their problem, not mine.

One way to do that, is to help them weather this shit storm. — James Riley

I personally like these kinds of storms, probably because I view them as revealing the crap we had buried. We'll probably come out of this crappy storm better off, just got to weather it...

We'll probably come out of this crappy storm better off, just got to weather it... — Derrick Huestis

I hope so. I've seen some social media memes that I thought were good in that regard. There are some folks out there looking at making a good thing out of this. As one elder said, it could be a hole to fall into, or a door to walk through. It's up to us. I just don't want to see a mass exodus from the city out to the empty quarter. My nearest neighbor is 2.5 klicks away and I like it.

Simply, don't become the monster you seek to defeat. — Cheshire

Sure, when you have the luxury which is often up to monster. Some dangers are zerosum, bordering on lose-lose (pyrrhic), where it takes a monster to defeat a monster. Last resort, yeah; but not unthinkable.

If the post doesn't apply to you – if I have misread your views as expressed in this thread – then ignore it.