Find truth in yourself and you've found truth in the rest of the world. — Heister Eggcart

I don't know what your life is about. It is for you to say what is the most important thing to you. For me it is love - which is not to say that I am loving or lovely, but that is what it is about; that is where I stand, and where I am trying to go. And it is an abstraction, to the extent that I fail to make it real in my life. — unenlightened

Yes, obviously. — unenlightened

Take justice as an unworldly example. It is not a natural condition, but is only brought into being by a just man. I don't think I can make the unworldly concrete, except in so far as I can show you a life lived. — unenlightened

The tricky business here is that "pointing beyond the self" actually entails gazing further within oneself, but in an attempt to see God more fully, rather than our own nature, which is only represented just the same outside of our bodies in the world. — Heister Eggcart

An image, or idol, is a material object taken to be a representation of the immaterial God. — Metaphysician Undercover

No because an icon is not made to represent God. — Metaphysician Undercover

An image, or idol, is a material object taken to be a representation of the immaterial God — Metaphysician Undercover

Apparently inveterate fools are best completely ignored, especially if they seem to trollishly delight in trying to inflict their own stupidity and superficial thoughts on others. For me, this is a lesson well learned. — John

Yea...I long ago dismissed Agustino as a moral lunatic. My question to the mods some time ago as to whether certain posters can be blocked from one's view was motivated pretty much solely by a desire not to see his ridiculous posts. — Arkady

Are you testing me or something? >:O I'm prolly the only one here who will agree with you in this thread. Respect your allies more, pls — Heister Eggcart

Theologically speaking, we are created in the image of the God of Love — Heister Eggcart

It means your life is about something. — unenlightened

What is important here, your giving, the ring itself or your wife? — unenlightened

Is it, in the end, about your wife? If it is, you are worshipping an idol. — unenlightened

If I give a ring to my wife-to-be, have I given her a worldly thing? What distinguishes the worldly thing from the non-worldly? — Agustino

It is easy to mock a god with an image by defacing its statue, dressing it up in silly clothes, jeering at it, or even just smashing it. — andrewk

would all be idol worship because it seeks something other than that which ought be worshiped — Hanover

it is doubtful that a thinking person would find holiness in the mundane. — Hanover

Everyone must put something at the centre of their life as the most important; God, money, social status, pleasure, power, love, themselves, science, ... something. That thing is what one worships, whether one is in a church, a mosque, a temple, a laboratory, or the hypermarket. — unenlightened

An idol is a worldly thing, as distinct from an ideal. — unenlightened

How do you read this? — Heister Eggcart

Yeah but such comes about as a result of the world. — Heister Eggcart

Experience is in the nature of the world and of the mind. — Heister Eggcart

Okay, I admit to being no expert on this topic, but if there is only mind and the world, what else is there that comes about as a result of A (mind) and B (the world) having formed a relationship together? — Heister Eggcart

The more a gift provides an immense richness, the less it can make itself visible in an object, or the less that the object rendering it visible corresponds to the gift in fact [...] Even more, to give oneseulf to another obviously does not coincide with the gift of some object. The only object that perhaps might prove this gift, because it makes it visible, is the ring worn on the finger: it indicates that another has given himself or herself to me by giving me this ring. But this ring does not attest to the gift made by another, because it is not costly enough either to pay for my own commitment (as if this golden ring were worth my life, my fidelity, my own gift) or to confirm materially what the other has given me in self-giving On the contrary, the ring attests to the gift I have become not by equaling it, but by giving the gift a symbolic support, without any parity with what it nonetheless shows. The gift hence does not coincide with the object of the gift. Moreover, one can suggest the following fundamental rule: the more a gift reveals itself to be precious, the less it is accomplished as an object, or what amounts to the same thing, the more the object is reduced to the abstract role of support, decoration, symbol — Jean Luc Marion

If one who lives in a Christian culture goes up to God’s house, the house of the true God, with a true conception of God, with knowledge of God and prays—but prays in a false spirit; and one who lives in a idolatrous land prays with the total passion of the infinite, although his eyes rest on the image of an idol; where is there most truth? The one prays in truth to God, although he worships an idol. The other prays in untruth to the true God and therefore really worships an idol — Soren Kierkegaard

Let others complain that the age is wicked; my complaint is that it is paltry; for it lacks passion. Men's thoughts are thin and flimsy like lace, they are themselves pitiable like the lacemakers. The thoughts of their hearts are too paltry to be sinful. For a worm it might be regarded as a sin to harbor such thoughts, but not for a being made in the image of God. Their lusts are dull and sluggish, their passions sleepy...This is the reason my soul always turns back to the Old Testament and to Shakespeare. I feel that those who speak there are at least human beings: they hate, they love, they murder their enemies, and curse their descendants throughout all generations, they sin — Soren Kierkegaard

Fire. God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob - NOT of the philosophers and the scholars — Blaise Pascal

The heart has reasons, that reason knows not of. — Blaise Pascal

Clarity of mind means clarity of passion, too; this is why a great and clear mind loves ardently and sees distinctly what it loves — Blaise Pascal

Man is but a reed, the most feeble thing in nature, but he is a thinking reed. The entire universe need not arm itself to crush him. A vapour, a drop of water, suffices to kill him. But if the universe were to crush him, man would still be more noble than that which killed him, because he knows that he dies and the advantage which the universe has over him; the universe knows nothing of this — Blaise Pascal

Even if we did not know that our mind is eternal, we would still regard as of the first importance morality, religion, and absolutely all the things we have shown to be related to tenacity and nobility [...] The usual conviction of the multitude seems to be different. For most people apparently believe that they are free to the extent that they are permitted to yield to their lust, and that they give up their right to the extent that they are bound to live according to the rule of the divine law. Morality, then, and religion, and absolutely everything related to strength of character, they believe to be burdens, which they hope to put down after death, when they also hope to receive a reward for their bondage, that is, for their morality and religion. They are induced to live according to the rule of the divine law (as far as their weakness and lack of character allows) not only by this hope, but also, and especially, by the fear that they may be punished horribly after death. If men did not have this hope and fear, but believed instead that minds die with the body, and that the wretched, exhausted with the burden of morality, cannot look forward to a life to come, they would return to their natural disposition, and would prefer to govern all their actions according to lust, and to obey fortune rather than themselves. These opinions seem no less absurd to me than if someone, because he does not believe he can nourish his body with good food to eternity, should prefer to fill himself with poisons and other deadly things, or because he sees that the mind is not eternal, or immortal, should prefer to be mindless, and to live without reason. These [common beliefs] are so absurd they are hardly worth mentioning [...] Blessedness is not the reward of virtue, but virtue itself; nor do we enjoy it because we restrain our lusts; on the contrary, because we enjoy it, we are able to restrain them — Benedict de Spinoza

What else exists? — Heister Eggcart

Which is? — Heister Eggcart

You misread. I mean to ask what is the cause that A and B taken together creates? — Heister Eggcart

Erm, no I don't think so. What are you suggesting is the cause of A and B taken together? And tell me what A and B are, or at least what you think I find them to be. — Heister Eggcart

I'm not sold on going down the rabbit hole of there being a first cause, which seems too linear a causal chain. Infinite regression becomes a logical problem then, in my understanding. — Heister Eggcart

Neither. — Heister Eggcart

Where there are winners, there are losers. "Winning", means others are losing. Having as a goal "to win", makes you unpopular. The two things which you said Trump has strong views on, trade and torture, are both means for winning. Come on, "America First", is not a goal of winning? — Metaphysician Undercover

Come on Agustino, an individual must have a view of what is "winning", in order to be an opportunist. You cannot negate this to say that opportunism is equivalent to having no views at all. — Metaphysician Undercover

The difference between realpolitik and opportunism is that realpolitik has made opportunism into an ideology and denies this fact. — Metaphysician Undercover

Isn't it fairly obvious that Trump is an (almost Machiavellian) opportunist? *shrug* ¨\_(O)_/¯ — jorndoe

Two votes. — Metaphysician Undercover

He who is virtuous experiences virtue, he who loses the way is lost. When you are at one with the Dao, the Dao welcomes you. When you are at one with virtue, the virtue is always there. When you are at one with loss, the loss is experienced willingly. He who does not trust enough, will not be trusted

[...]

When the Great Dao is forgotten, kindness and morality arise; when wisdom and intelligence are born, the great pretense begins; when there is no peace in the family, filial piety and devotion arise; when the country is confused and in chaos, the loyal ministers appear. Give up sainthood, renounce wisdom, and it will be a hundred times better for everyone. Give up kindness, renounce morality, and men will rediscover filial piety and love. Give up ingenuity, renounce profit, and bandits and thieves will disappear. These three are outward forms alone, they are not sufficient in themselves, it is more important to see the simplicity, to realise one's true nature

[...]

Do you think you can take over the Universe and improve it? I do not believe it can be done. The Universe is sacred, you cannot improve it. If you try to change it, you will ruin it. If you try to hold it, you will lose it. So sometimes things are ahead, and sometimes they are behind, sometimes breathing is hard, sometimes it comes easily, sometimes there is strength, and sometimes weakness, sometimes one is up, and sometimes down. Therefore the sage avoids extremes, excesses and complacency.

Whenever you advise a ruler in the way of Dao, counsel him not to use force to conquer the universe for this would only cause resistance. Thorn bushes spring up wherever the army has passed. Lean years follow in the wake of a great war. Just do what needs to be done. Never take advantage of power. Achieve results, but never glory in them. Achieve results, but never boast. Achieve results, but never be proud. Achieve results because this is the natural way. Achieve results but not through violence. Force is followed by loss of strength. This is not the way of Dao. That which goes against the Dao, comes to an early end.

[...]

If you delight in killing, you cannot fulfil yourself.

[...]

War is conducted like a funeral. When many people are being killed, they should be mourned in heartfelt sorrow. That is why a victory must be observed like a funeral

[...]

Once the whole is divided, the parts need names. There are already enough names. One must know when to stop. Knowing when to stop avoids trouble.

[...]

Perseverance is a sign of willpower. He who stays where he is endures. To die but not to perish is to be eternally present

[...]

A truly good man is not aware of his goodness, and is therefore good. A foolish man tries to be good, and is therefore not good. A truly good man, does nothing, yet leaves nothing undone. A foolish man is always doing, yet much remains to be done. When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone. When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done. When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds, he rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order. Therefore when Dao is lost, there is goodness. When goodness is lost, there is kindness. When kindness is lost, there is justice. When justice is lost, there is ritual. Now ritual, is the husk of faith and loyalty. The beginning of confusion. — DaoDeJing

Enjoy the moment, it's bound to be short lived. — Metaphysician Undercover

The philosopher king has to lay the foundations for the new society. I'd say he is more of a visionary then anything else, he must see far into the future, with a plan, to direct the coming into being of the new society. Remember, the task of the philosopher king is not to rule over society, but to lead the people out of the cave, to help them to see the light. Morality for Plato is tied up with eugenics, as an attempt to direct evolution. Jesus Christ could be understood as a sort of philosopher king. Religion made him into a god. But it would be impossible to have a philosopher king without involving religion. — Metaphysician Undercover

I want to know what compels a person to do that — TimeLine

Lust very often manifests in the desire to possess what others want to possess, by virtue of mimesis - you want it for the sole reason that others want it. Hence the trophy wife. Or the guy with lots of money, driving a fast car, and carrying big muscles. — Agustino

the concept of beauty is a social construct — TimeLine

I do not think that beauty is a social construct, even if it is personally subjective — Sylar

All Christianity concentrates on the man at the cross-roads. The vast and shallow philosophies, the huge syntheses of humbug, all talk about ages and evolution and ultimate developments. The true philosophy is concerned with the instant. Will a man take this road or that? - that is the only thing to think about, if you enjoy thinking. The aeons are easy enough to think about, any can think about them. The instant is really awful: and it is because our religion has intensely felt the instant, that it has in literature dealt much with battle and in theology much with hell. It is full of danger, like a boy's book: it is at an immortal crisis — G.K. Chesterton

The circus peanut-in-chief has his Goebbels at his side...the circle is nearly complete. Oh, well...America had a good 240 year run (not perfect, sure, but we generally kept democracy chugging along pretty smoothly for most of that time). — Arkady

To cheat oneself out of love is the most terrible deception; it is an eternal loss for which there is no reparation, either in time or in eternity. For usually, whatever variations there may be, when there is talk of being deceived in love the one deceived is still related to love, and the deception is simply that it is not present where it was thought to be; but one who is self-deceived has locked himself out and continues to lock himself out from love. There is also talk about being deceived by life or in life; but he who self-deceptively cheated himself out of living - his loss is irredeemable. One who throughout his whole life has been deceived by life - for him the eternal can treasure rich compensation; but the person who has deceived himself has prevented himself from winning the eternal. He who because of love became sacrifice to human deceit - what has he really lost when in eternity it turns out that love endures; whereas the deception is no more!

But one who has ingeniously deceived himself by cleverly falling into the snare of cleverness, alas, even if throughout his entire life he has in his own conceit considered himself happy, what has he not lost when in eternity it appears that he deceived himself! In the temporal world a man may succeed in getting along without love; he may succeed in slipping through life without discovering the self-deception; he may have the terrible success, in his conceit, of becoming proud of it; but in eternity he cannot dispense with love and cannot escape discovering that he has lost everything. How earnest existence is, how terrible it is, precisely when in chastisement it permits the wilful person to counsel himself, permits him to live on proud of - being deceived - until finally he is permitted to verify that he has deceived himself in eternity!

The eternal does not let itself be mocked; it is rather that which does not need to use might but almightily uses a little mockery in order to punish the presumptuous in a terrible way [...] Need, to have need, and to be needy - how reluctantly a man wishes this to be said of him! And yet, we pay the highest compliment when we say of [...] a girl - 'it is a need for her to love'. Alas, even the most needy person who has ever lived - if he still has had love - how rich his life has been in comparison with him, the only really poor person, who lived out his life and never felt the need of anything! It is a girl's greatest riches that she needs the beloved — Søren Kierkegaard

That's why it's naive. It can't see beyond authoritarian reaction, thought to be a direct imposition of the leaders will. All it amounts to is an apology for power, an image that specifies the next scapegoat, an illusion of greatness when all that's happened is a shift in social status and a rubber stamp for tyranny-- the self-confirming aristocratic illusion which turns them blind to the world.

A philosopher king is not a solution to a decaying society. Community is needed to that purpose. Whether that be in local relationships actions (which the post-industrial has has difficulty with because of a surplus labour force; it has to run the trivial and wasteful to keep people employed) or in international relations and power (e.g. obtaining resources, eliminating invasion threats, etc.). This isn't really a question of government type (one can have dictators who get their populace drunk on freedoms and recreations), but of what a society does.

The philosophy king thinks social change can be achieved inactively, by nothing more than his decree and speech. Dazzled by his visions of grandeur and self-importance ( "I am the great man who will save this society" ), the philosopher king forgets he's (supposedly) leading a community. — TheWillowOfDarkness