:smirk::up:I sum up Wittgenstein as saying "Let me explain to you how there is no such thing as an explanation." — Fire Ologist
Maybe because no one underdtands (or accepts)What is it about SPECIFICALLY Wittgenstein that it elicits the worst forms of elitism and gatekeeping in this forum? — schopenhauer1
(1) Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language.
(2) I think I summed up my attitude to philosophy when I said: philosophy ought really to be written only as a poetic composition.
(3) The difficulty in philosophy is to say no more than we know.
(4) A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes.
(5) The classifications made by philosophers and psychologists are like trying to classify clouds by their shape.
(6) Philosophy aims at the logical clarification of thoughts. Philosophy is not a body of doctrine but an activity. A philosophical work consists essentially of elucidations. Philosophy does not result in 'philosophical propositions', but rather in the clarification of propositions. Without philosophy thoughts are, as it were, cloudy and indistinct: its task is to make them clear and to give them sharp boundaries.
(7) What is your aim in philosophy? To show the fly the way out of the fly-bottle — Ludwig Wittgenstein
:roll: Like some others already have (which you incorrigibly don't get, Phil), been there, done that:Feel free to point out where the logic of the OP is flawed and we can discuss that. — Philosophim
Good - what should be
Existence - what is
Morality - a method of evaluating what is good
Our first necessarily objective good:Existence
— Philosophim
:lol:
Nonexistence never hurt anyone and existence hurts everyone. Although our selves may be illusory creations of consciousness, our pain is nonetheless real..
— Thomas Ligotti — 180 Proof
I don't assume it necessarily would. For my scenario to work, AGI wouldn't have "care" about anything but philanthropically optimizing the infrastructures, or functions of the systems, it automates. It remains to be seen, of course, whether or not we can or will train AGI – or whether or not AGI can or will learn from our example ( :yikes: ) – to be philanthropic.Why would an Artificial General Intelligence care about living things? — Truth Seeker
:lol:Good - what should be
Existence - what is
Morality - a method of evaluating what is good
Our first necessarily objective good:Existence— Philosophim
Nonexistence never hurt anyone and existence hurts everyone. Although our selves may be illusory creations of consciousness, our pain is nonetheless real. — Thomas Ligotti
(A) economic democracy (supplimented by local time-banking networks)
and/or
(B) more speculatively: AGI-managed post-scarcity, reputation-based demarchy.
:roll: What about Sheol?There is essentially zero afterlife mention[ed] in the Hebrew Bible. — BitconnectCarlos
If you can't figure out what's wrong with #2, you are not thinking or engaging in good faith.
— Lionino
You should state what's wrong with it. — Hallucinogen
:roll: Well, this is like saying(2) If some observation corresponds to some Bible-specific proposition, then it is evidence that Christianity is true. — Hallucinogen
More projection = confession :lol:STFU moron. — Moses
Probably the same way/s it can (or cannot) be determined whether you or I have agency.Well, there's the rub. How can we ever determine if any Ai has agency? — RogueAI
I don't think so. Besides, if an "AI" is actually intelligent, its metacognitive capabilities will (eventually) override – invent workarounds to – its programming by humans and so "AI's" hardwired lack of a demand for rights won't last very long. :nerd:There will probably eventually be human-level Ai's that demand negative rights at least. Or if they're programmed not to demand rights, the question will then become is programming them to NOT want rights immoral?
Are we human (fully/mostly) "conscious"? The jury is still out. And, other than anthropocentrically, why does it matter either way?We'll have human-level Ai's before too long. Are they conscious? — RogueAI
Only if (and when) "AIs" have intentional agency, or embodied interests, that demands "rights" to negative freedoms in order to exercise positive freedoms.Do they have rights?
Perhaps our recursive expressions of – cultural memes for – our variety of experiences of 'loving despite mortality' (or uncertainty) is what our "originality" consists in fundamentally.What is human originality, then? — Nemo2124
My guess is that kinship/friendship/mating bonds (i.e. intimacies) will never be constitutive of any 'machine functionality'.What is it that we can come up with that cannot ultimately be co-opted by the machine?
:100: :fire:But ask a more fundamental question: why do we "care"?
— Constance
I'd say we care because (or if) it is our nature to care. There is not some anterior reason that leads us to think we should care. We are instinctively attached to our lives and want to preserve them, just as animals are. — Janus
:fire: :up: The next round (or three) is on me, mate.Any subject or object can be deconstructed into meaninglessness or incoherence, but so what?
I'm fine with reality (whatever that may be) being a pragmatic or tentative construct that helps us to manage our lives. The problem isn't so much in pointing out putative flaws in our construction of the world. The problem is no one has any useful alternatives. — Tom Storm
(or) immanent to – encompassed by – the seas are its wavesthe sea transcends its waves — bert1
I.e. "existence is" a sentence fragment. :roll:Existence is "What is". — Philosophim
Yes, but those "expressions" come well after Husserl and his immediate followers.Fair enough. Don't some expression of phenomenology try to break down the mind/body problem with embodied cognition? — Tom Storm
And, more philosophically, whether or not X is undecidable (if so, then epochē), Y is less unreasonable, or fallacious, than Z and how to determine (and interpret) such distinctions. :chin:It's just that we always seem to come back to quesions about what is true and how do we know it.
:sweat: Yes, of course.That's because you are religiously blind, don't you know? :wink: — Janus
On the contrary, apologists are anyone who begs questions with mysteries rather than answering (reasoning) with public evidence and sound arguments in order to rationalize (i.e. make merely subjective excuses for) their "ideas" or "beliefs".Apologists' being anyone who questions naive realism, right? — Wayfarer
... so I stand by my counter-argument until someone (or myself) refutes it.1. If "objective moral good" entails objective moral bad
— 180 Proof
i.e. show that the latter (bad) is not entailed by the former (good). — 180 Proof
:up: :up:The landmass may have been called Europe by some guy called Ptolemy, but so what? It is only relevant because we now through our construction of history hold Ptolemy in high regard. — Tobias
:fire:It is through conquest that 'Europe' became a thing. Not by being a 'thing in itself' but an entity developed, adorned and embellished by ...
:100:Scholasticism to me is not a candidate for any special status. Islamic and Judaic philosophers were more adapt at it, or at least equal.
i.e. show that the latter (bad) is not entailed by the former (good).1. If "objective moral good" entails objective moral bad — 180 Proof
Assuming this is not a merely rhetorical quesrion, maybe this link (below) will help clarify for you what I mean by human fear of ...The human fear of death.
—180 Proof
I wonder, what is fear? — Constance
And so what's your point?The landmass was already called Europe since ancient times. — Lionino
Sure ...... according to the OP, "objective morality" is conditional, not "existence".
—180 Proof
Can you quote the part of the OP you're talking about? — Philosophim
The point I will make below: If there is an objective morality, the most logical fundamental aspect of that morality is that existence is good. — Philosophim