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  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    ↪Wayfarer
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/877821
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    So, again, please demonstrate how, as you claim, 'the established facts of evolution and cosmology are "equally compatible" with idealism (i.e. antirealism) as they are with physicalism'.
    — 180 Proof

    First please demonstrate why idealism implies anti-realism in the first place.
    — Wayfarer
    Answer my question, Wayfarer, and then I'll answer yours.

    secular culture
    The topic raisrd by OP is "the nature of esoteric forms of philosophy" and not "secular culture". Stop trying to shift the goalposts. :sweat:
  • Nothing to something is logically impossible
    I think the OP logical, but it doesn't connect to anything. Spinning wheels. — Banno
    :up:
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    Wayfarer seems to be here to issue dispensations of authority, and confirm his own biases, not to question and subject his beliefs to the rigors of argument. — Janus
    No doubt.
  • Nothing to something is logically impossible
    Folk trying to do physics without the maths, again.

    It never works out well.
    — Banno
    Metaphysics without logic too.

    Same just-so story.
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    physicalism as a metaphysical view. It's physicalism as a metaphysic that I take issue with. — Wayfarer
    Well, since very few philosophers or scientists dogmatically advocate "metaphysical physicalism", you're taking issue wirh a non-issue (or strawman), just barking at shadows in your own little cave, Wayf. :sparkle:

    So, again, please demonstrate how, as you claim, 'the established facts of evolution and cosmology are "equally compatible" with idealism (i.e. antirealism) as they are with physicalism'.
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    If philosophy is the desire for wisdom we should be wise enough to know that we are not wise. In the Apology Socrates says that he knows nothing noble and good. (21d)Knowledge of his ignorance is the beginning not the completion of his wisdom. It is, on the one hand, the beginning of self-knowledge and on the other of the self’s knowledge of the world.

    Socratic philosophy is zetetic. It is inquiry directed by our lack of knowledge. If Socrates is taken to be, as I think Plato and Xenophon intend, the paradigmatic philosopher, then the fact that he remained ignorant until the end of his life should be kept front and center.
    — Fooloso4
    :clap: :fire: Excellent, well put! Thinking is questioning – being-oneself-in-question – and not merely believing in answers ("esoteric" or otherwise).

    ↪Fooloso4
    "Forms" ... remain hypothetical" ... images on the cave wall" :100:
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    I fully accept the established facts of evolution and cosmology. But they do not necessarily entail physicalism. They are equally compatible with an idealist philosophy. — Wayfarer
    :chin: Give an example of how "idealism" is "equally compatible" (as e.g. physicalism is) with the established facts of "evolution" or "cosmology". Thanks.

    Btw, you're profoundly mistaken, Wayfarer: the supposition physicalism is only a paradigm, or set of methodological criteria (i.e. working assumptions), for making and interpreting explanatory models of phenomena and, therefore, not "entailed" by modern sciences.
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    The Israeli newspapers have spoken openly about what they call the 'Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance', and how Netanyahu intentionally sought to get Rabin assassinated. — Tzeentch
    :up:
  • Nothing to something is logically impossible
    ↪Banno
    :smirk:
  • Nothing to something is logically impossible
    ↪MoK
    Define "nothing" (including how that concept differs from 'nothing-ness'). As an undefined term, your argument seems invalid.

    ↪MoK
    "Time" is only a metric; to conflate, or confuse, a metric with what it measures as you do, Mok, is a reification fallacy (e.g. a map =|= the territory). For instance, AFAIK, quantum fluctuations are random (i.e. pattern-less), therefore, not time-directional (i.e. a-temporal), and yet vacuum energy exists; so it's reasonable to surmise that "time" (re: spacetime) is not a fundamental physical property –only an abstract approximation (i.e. mapping) – of "something".
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    ↪wonderer1
    :up:
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    "Effing the ineffable" is the job of art and poetry, not rigorous philosophical discussion. Poetry may be evocative, but it presents no arguments. That which cannot be tested empirically or justified logically is outside the scope of rational argument. That doesn't mean it has no value ... — Janus
    :100:
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    the core of the OP's question. The esoterica of the gaps.... — Tom Storm
    :up:

    I think it ironic how often Socrates' claim of ignorance is ignored. [ ... ] We remain in the cave of opinion. It is not that we do not know anything, but when we do not know what we do not know and believe we do know we are no longer even in the realm of opinion but ignorance. — Fooloso4
    :up: :up:
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    We can know nothing whatsoever about whatever might be "beyond being". The idea is nothing more than the dialectical opposite of 'being'. Fools have always sought to fill the 'domains' of necessary human ignorance with their "knowing". How much misery this has caused humanity is incalculable. — Janus
    :100: :fire:
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Boundless arrogance?
    — tim wood

    Israel is the law
    — tim wood

    :chin: Kind of making my point for me there, buddy.
    — Tzeentch
    :smirk: :up:

    Netanyahu has no right to speak of deradicalizing anyone. He's a radical himself. Hamas is his baby. The murder of Yitzhak Rabin is his brain child. The death of Israel will be in large part his doing. — Tzeentch
    :100:
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    'Esoteric' is [ ... ] an insight into the whole of existence — Wayfarer
    This "insight" is partial because existents are only part(icular)s of – ineluctably encompassed by – existence and is, therefore, only "a glance" of an illusion of "the whole". However much a lightning flash momentarily illuminates in the night, the enveloping darkness – the unknown unknown – always remains; an existential reminder that one always already knows that one cannot know ultimately (e.g. Socrates, Pyrrho, Epicurus, Montaigne, Spinoza, Hume-Kant-Wittgenstein ...), which is why philosophy, consisting of questions we do not know (yet) how to answer, always only begins. Btw, Wayf, I don't think it's helpful to further conflate, or confuse, philosophy with mysticism (or with woo :sparkle:) as @Jack Cummins' OP suggests.
  • I’m 40 years old this year, and I still don’t know what to do, whether I should continue to live/die
    ↪Moliere
    :up:
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    ↪BitconnectCarlos
    Bibi's policy of supporting Hamas since 2004 has been expressly to sabotage any "Two State Solution" by keeping the Palestinian population divided between the secular PLA in the West Bank that accepts 'Israel's right to exist' and a religious extremist militia in Gaza that strives to destroy Israel. Netanyahu & co have spent decades creating their own excuses, or pretexts, for systematically massacring and eventually driving the Palestinian population out of Palestinian lands. Lebensraum / Manifest Destiny aka "Greater Israel" policy! What the Irgun & co started in 1947-49, Bibi's Zion-über-alles regime is bloodthirstily hellbent on finishing in 2023-2025.

    ↪180 Proof You're just biased and the guardian is a leftist rag. — Benkei
    You're damn right, comrade! :mask:
  • I’m 40 years old this year, and I still don’t know what to do, whether I should continue to live/die
    I don’t know why my mind keeps thinking there’s no real reason to live — rossii
    I'm unaware of any "real reason to live" other than that which one gives oneself by taking caring of – investing time in –anything or anyone other than just oneself.

    Maybe it stems from my ethics? - which I found out could be considered negative utilitarianism. It also means I don’t want to cause suffering to others, but I can't seem to ease my own suffering.
    IME, as a fellow negative utilitarian, I've found that anticipating & preventing or reducing just one other person's suffering (or nonperson's pain) daily helps to reduce (or "ease") my own suffering daily. Once it's habitual, rossii, disutilitarianism feels like and becomes a win-win practice (i.e. virtue).

    Besides, killing oneself is a gamble, not a guarantee (or even ascertainable likelihood) that not existing will be better than existing, or that death will end your suffering or despair or interminable boredom. Thus, IMO, it's an irrational act because one (non-pathologically) commits suicide out of blind hope.
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    Metaphorical thinking may ...

    Images may ...
    — Jack Cummins
    ... and they may not. Which is it? What are you talking about, Jack? :roll:
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    I'll venture to say that those who so dismiss metaphorical thinking can only be hypocrites, for - as per my initial post - they live and breathe in metaphorical thinking just as much as anyone else does. — javra
    :100: :up:

    Metaphor, however, is not synonymous with esoterica.

    ↪Jack Cummins

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/877179
  • How much Should Infidelity Count Against the Good Works of Famous Figures?
    "great" men like FDR and MLK — RogueAI
    "Beware lest a statue slay you."
    ~Freddy Zarathustra
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    ↪Jack Cummins
    I'm not a Jungian / Campbellian or transperonalist, etc so clarify for me in layman's terms, Jack: Why is "living out mythic aspects of dramas" "extremely important"? Why is "trying to bring together mythos and logos" worth obfuscating them both?
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    ↪Jack Cummins
    So then you don't have any "tangible examples" of the difference the distinction between "exoteric and esoteric" makes particularly in philosophy?

    Tell me/us why "exoteric" philosophy is not sufficient or in principle, if not practice, fails to do what it sets out to do.
  • How May Esoteric Thinking and Traditions be Understood and Evaluated Philosophically?
    ↪Tom Storm
    :fire: :up:

    the nature of esoteric forms of philosophy — Jack Cummins
    Mythos as light that casts shadows of Logos on the cave wall ...

    ... in other words, "esoteric forms" in contrast to reflective (and defeasible) reasoning?

    In this way, the ideas of the esoteric may involve more of a demystification rather than clarification of ideas and understanding. — Jack Cummins
    IMO, more like mythification of ideas, etc.
  • Thomas Ligotti's Poetic Review of Human Consciousness
    How? — schopenhauer1
    What?
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
    Addendum to
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/874592

    If the Netanyahu regime walks like 'genocide / ethnic cleansing propagandized as self-defense' and talks like 'genocide / ethnic cleansing propaganized as self-defense' – while they mass murder tens of thousands (to date) and have mass displaced (via e.g. domicide) over two million Palestinian noncombatants – then, as a US court has recently found (separately from the ICJ's interim report), maybe... :chin:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/01/genocide-gaza-israel-california-court

    @BitconnectCarlos @RogueAI @schopenhauer1 @tim wood et al
  • How Different Are Theism and Atheism as a Starting Point for Philosophy and Ethics?
    ↪Corvus
    If you say so ...
  • US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
    addendum to:
    ↪180 Proof
    ↪180 Proof


    In case you haven't been paying attention:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/877051
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    In case you haven't been paying attention:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/877051
  • What Are You Watching Right Now?
    A first draft of history: "January 6th"

    Democracy on Trial
    Frontline documentary


    aired 30Jan24
  • Thomas Ligotti's Poetic Review of Human Consciousness
    Philosophical Pessimism is debatable... — schopenhauer1
    So one can have, or acquire, reasons to choose or not to choose to be a philosophical pessimist (i.e. rationally committed to the idea that it is rationally worse ‐ more than merely not preferable – to exist than to not exist)? I've read a great deal on this topic (including all the "pessimists" cited by T. Ligotti & JF Dienstag) and the arguments either way seem ad hoc (or rationalizations) because the premises are often merely anecdotal.
  • How Different Are Theism and Atheism as a Starting Point for Philosophy and Ethics?
    ↪Corvus
    What is an example of an objective system?

    Each philosopher requires a lot of effort to hear what is being said. Is "objectivity" being able to answer simple questions without all that work?
    — Paine
    :up: :up:

    ↪Paine
    Many folks are just intellectually lazy.

    Not asking for spoon feeding, — Corvus
    :roll:
  • How Different Are Theism and Atheism as a Starting Point for Philosophy and Ethics?
    So, what does Spinoza's God do for Spinoza or for the rest of us in this planet? — Corvus
    Each reader has to answer that for herself after studying Spinoza (or any other metaphysician) for herself. My spoon-feeding apparently isn't helping you better understand Spinoza's God (i.e. substance/natura naturans (re: reality)).

    Spinoza's substance (i.e. nature or god) is a metaphysical supposition , not an empirical theory.
    — 180 Proof

    How much credence should we give to this supposition?
    — Fooloso4
    No more than its logical validity, or reasonableness, can bear.

    Can a finite limited part know the infinite unlimited whole?
    Spinoza argues in the negative.

    What are we to make of the significance of Spinoza's signet ring: "CAUTE"?
    Only that it was a personal reminder like wearing a skull ring or carrying a coin inscribed with "Memento Mori".

    He had good reason to be cautious, but he often seemed more daring then cautious. What was it that he dared not say or said only in a veiled way?
    For starters, that religious sects e.g. Protestant, Catholic & Jewish are merely superstitions which, lacking logically valid arguments (i.e. rationality), anthropomorphically project 'a supernatural personality that superintends the world it also transcends' that each tradition attributes miracles to, petitions with prayers and calls "God".

    I suspect this basic appeal to rationality – critique of Torah & Judaism as consisting of mostly irrational beliefs – got him excommunicated from the Jewish community of Amsterdam, and being a non-Christian outcast in a Christian country (even one as 'tolerant' as Holland) during an era riven by violent schisms and wars of religion who was expelled for irreligion was extremely dangerous – Spinoza's every word and deed, whether overtly irreligious or otherwise unorthodox in any way, were always at risk of being suspect by church and/or civil authorities. Since his philosophy mostly follows necessarily from this appeal to rationality (or PoSR),

    Spinoza's writings were circulated in strictest confidence among intellectuals/scholars he trusted and were, on the prudent advise of friends, published anonymously lifetime or published posthumously.
  • How Different Are Theism and Atheism as a Starting Point for Philosophy and Ethics?
    ↪Corvus
    Spinoza's substance (i.e. nature or god) is a metaphysical supposition , not an empirical theory.
  • US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
    ↪180 Proof I agree:
    • SCOTUS will deny a former President has absolute immunity
    • Trump will be cash constrained at some point this year (not as early as you say)

    I disagree:
    • that Engeron will dissolve the Trump Org in NY; I expect only a fine, commensurate with his savings on interest due to receiving interest rates more favorable than his finances warranted. This will contribute to Trump's cash constraints.

    • that Trump won't be the GOP nominee. This is because 95% of delegates to the GOP nominating convention are committed to vote based on the primaries. They would be freed only if Trump were to drop out of the race - and that won't happen.

    • that the J6 conspiracy trial will have concluded before the election, but even if it is - pending appeals will keep him out of prison. If he's elected, he'll pardon himself and put an end to that.
    — Relativist
    We shall see soon enough. :up:
  • How Different Are Theism and Atheism as a Starting Point for Philosophy and Ethics?
    My question is still is there anything which represents "substance" in the actual world? — Corvus
    For Spinoza, speculatively substance is the logico-mathematical structure of the universe (as distinct from the empirical contents in the universe) aka "the laws of nature". In other words, Spinoza's substance is like a player piano and "the actual world" is like a waltz it's playing.
  • James Webb Telescope
    ↪jorndoe
    :cool:
  • Thomas Ligotti's Poetic Review of Human Consciousness
    It's why the Trump and Israel threads are dumpster fires. — Hanover
    :smirk: :up:
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