• How to do philosophy
    "It's quantum" has much the same utility as "God did it". — Banno
    :100: :smirk:
  • Deep Songs
    :up: I was a sophmore engineering student at university that winter when the War album dropped and saw U2 perform it live at a small college in upstate NY that spring with my bandmates (yeah, I was a fairly poor bass player in a faux-punk funk/reggae band that played fraternity parties for beer and drugs :yum:) and our girlfriends. Great show, glad I saw them up-close with about 2,000 fans – just before they blew up into "the.biggest band in the world" (as The Police finished their Synchronicity final tour that summer) and peaked a few years later with Joshua Tree. :cool:
  • Argument for a Mind-Dependent, Qualitative World
    If by ‘evidence’ you mean just something you can tangibly test, then obviously no one can offer you that in metaphysics; ...Bob Ross
    Yes, and since you're making a fact-claim that there is "the universal mind" by which "consciousness is best explained", you're argument is pseudo-science, not metaphysics.

    ... the whole point of metaphysics is to use reason to guess what lies beyond that experience which explains that experience.
    If this is so, then this so-called "use of reason" does not consist of sound arguments (i.e. lack of factually true premises ergo lack of factually true conclusion). This sort of "guess" consists of an untestable explanation about matters of fact (e.g. "experience") which is mere pseudo-science unlike, for instance, Kant's transcendental arguments which are epistemological critiques of metaphysical speculations of "pure reason".

    Science is only a negative criteria for metaphysics (viz., it can weed out the really bad theories) but never a positive criteria (viz., that science confirms a metaphysical theory as true).
    Agreed. Also, science rules-out bad (i.e. falsifed or untestable) explanations and thereby abductively affirms only provisionally better (i.e. successfully tested) explanations. As the original Aristotlean corpus suggests, metaphysics – First Philosophy – consists in categorical generalizations abstracted from the 'observed' conditions and limits of nature – physus – which first must be learned by 'empirical inquiries' Aristotle calls "Physics" – science; thus, the relation between 'metaphysics and physics' is a form of reflective equilibrium so that First Philosophy only conceptualizes and interprets scientific – successfully tested (or testable-in-principle) – explanations but cannot itself – as metaphysics – "explain" anything.

    There’s plenty of evidence that we can explain the world in terms of mind. For example, have you ever had a vivid dream?
    Firstly, anecdotes are not scientific evidence. Secondly, the "experience" of "vivid dreams" cannot itself be conclusive "evidence" for anything "beyond experience" which could be a candidate for – "guess" of – an "explanation of experience".

    That consciousness is best explained via a mind-dependent world.
    And what "best explains" this "mind-dependent world"?

    That quantum physics, such as entanglement, is best explained when thought of as extrinsic representations within a universal mind.
    Non sequitur (i.e. quantum woo woo).

    I gave an argument here in the OP for a mind-dependent, qualitative world: let’s start there. What premise (or premises) did you disagree with?
    I object to "P1"
    P1: A quantitative process cannot produce a quality. [p → !q]Bob Ross
    which is obviously not true in many cases.

    e.g.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4479710/

    also
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism

    Just to clarify, I am not saying that the universal mind is itself mind-dependent; as existence itself is mind-independent.
    So "universal mind" is not fundamental – dependent on – "mind-independent existence". Yes, minds are dependent on non-mind (i.e. physicalism).

    There isn’t some mind outside of the universe that willed it into existence.
    I agree. Thus, the physicalist paradigm: the universe is fundamental and minds are (or "the mind is") emergent in, dependent on, derivative from the universe.
  • Argument for a Mind-Dependent, Qualitative World
    I don't understand the question or subsequent statement in the context of my exchange with Bob Ross..
  • Argument for a Mind-Dependent, Qualitative World
    ... reality is fundamentally a mind. That mind, however, objectively exists; that is, it’s existence is mind-independent—i.e., it doesn’t manifest itself nor uphold its own existence.Bob Ross
    An "unmanifest mind" – how do we know it "objective exists"?

    By ‘objective’, I mean ‘that which is mind-independent’ and by ‘mind-at-large’ I mean that reality is fundamentally a mind
    I'd asked about your phrase "objective reality" ... and so you're saying – referring to the above – "mind is mind-independent"? :chin:

    It is disembodied in the sense that it doesn’t have an organic body...
    By "it" are you referring to "mind"? If so, then the evidence I'd requested is for a specimen of "a disembodied mind".

    From one of your previous thread discussions ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/813077
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    :cool: 3 down and 1 to go in 2023 ...
    The timeline of MAGA Loser #1's legal reckoning for his 2016-2023 crime spree (excluding potentially ruinous civil lawsuits) is taking a definite shape:

    1. NYC felony indictment
    31Mar23 :up:
    "34 counts of Business Documents Fraud Crealing and/or Covering-up Felonies", etc

    https://apnews.com/article/trump-indictment-full-document-640043319549?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=RelatedStories&utm_campaign=position_02
    2. Miami, Federal indictment
    8Jun23 :up:
    re: 37 counts "Mishandling Documents, Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice, Violating Espionage Act, Making False Statements to Federal Authorities, Witness Tampering" etc

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/08/donald-trump-charged-retention-classified-documents

    9Jun23 Federal indictment unsealed ...
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/09/trump-indictment-unsealed-pdf-text-criminal-charges

    [ ... ]
    180 Proof
    2.1 Miami, Federal Superceding Indictment (1), 27Jul23 :up:
    +3 felony charges (+1 Espionage (32), +2 Obstruction), etc
    + new exhibit – "Iran war plan" documents (audio, July 2021)

    *

    3. Washington, DC, Federal indictment
    1Aug23 :up:
    re: 4 counts
    • Conspiracy to Defraud the U.S.;
    • Conspiracy to Obstruct an Official Proceeding;
    • Obstruction of and attempt to Obstruct an Official Proceeding;
    • Conspiracy Against Rights


    1Aug23 Federal Indictment unsealed ...
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/01/trump-indictment-full-text-2020-election-jan-6

  • The infinite in Hegel's philosophy
    So maybe the question is, if there is and can be something infinite, what would that be?Gregory
    Arithmetically "infinite?" – no actual thing. Geometrically unbounded? – many things (e.g.) planets, moons, suns, apples, donuts, melodies, knots ...

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/825315
  • Argument for a Mind-Dependent, Qualitative World
    I would say that objective reality is a mind-at-large ...Bob Ross
    I don't grok your statement. Clarify what you mean by "objective reality" and/or "mind-at-large".

    Also, if "the world is mind-dependent", then "mind" is world-independent (i.e. separate from the world, or disembodied), no? Evidence?
  • The Evolution of Racism and Sexism as Terms & The Discussing the Consequences
    What you say is so confused I can't make sense of what you are talking about. Apparently, sir, you have the luxury of 'living confused'; many don't.
  • The Evolution of Racism and Sexism as Terms & The Discussing the Consequences
    ↪T Clark ↪Judaka What we have here is a failure to communicate, or worse, a failure to think clearlyBC
    :100: :up:

    Unarguable specimen of racist denialism:
    Also, I reject racial and ethnic histories, cultures and groups. I don't think white people are responsible for anything, and as I told you before, I would prefer to see black Americans taking responsibility for slavery as Americans. That would represent the kind of progress I think would be helpful.Judaka
    :mask:
  • The infinite in Hegel's philosophy
    If for Spinoza God is everything ...Gregory
    Natura natura (i.e. Modes aka "everything") is not divine (i.e. not eternal, not self-caused) according to Spinoza, only natura naturans (i.e. Substance (which is eternal & self-caused)) is divine. "The world is illusionary" only in the sense that it merely exists, or is contingent, sub specie durationis but is not real, or necessary (re: Substance), sub specie aeternitatis.

    So I am not sure any kind of materialism would work with Spinoza.
    Classical atomism (Epicurus-Lucretius) – insofar as atoms are conceived of as Modes and void is conceived of as Substance – works fine enough for me (& Marx, Deleuze et al).
  • The Evolution of Racism and Sexism as Terms & The Discussing the Consequences
    180 Proof
    Well, I think "descriptive talk" like yours tends to confuse bigots with racists.
    — 180 Proof

    How so? I'm just asking for your framework for interpreting something as contributing or perpetuating to racism, in a descriptive manner.
    Judaka
    Reread my posts, I can't make my meaning any plainer. There ain't no "interpreting" on my part happening here.
  • The infinite in Hegel's philosophy
    Spinoza identified God with natureGregory
    Spinoza does not say "God IS Nature" (Deus natura est ~ pantheism); he says instead "God, OR Nature" (Deus, sive natura ~ acosmism). An excerpt from a letter ...
    ... But some people think the Tractatus Theologico-Politicus rests on the assumption that God is one and the same as ‘Nature’ understood as a mass of corporeal matter. This is a complete mistake. — Spinoza, from letter (73) to Henry Oldenburg
    (Emphasis is mine.)

    A post from an old thread "Philosophy and Metaphysics" wherein I clarify why Spinoza's metaphysic is not consistent with – identical to – pantheism ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/528116

    A post from an old thread "Pantheism" ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/636415
  • The infinite in Hegel's philosophy
    Hegel taught ac[osm]ism, as did Spinoza.Gregory
    Hegel was one of the first thinkers (following(?) Maimon) to differenntiate Spinoza's acosmism from pantheism but I think its more accurate to identify Hegel's metaphysics with (Christian) pantheism.
  • Questioning the Premise of Children of Men
    The "doomsday" part is from the fact that no people will be around to keep the economy going. But the idea of, "Oh no! What shall I do if there isn't a future generation" doesn't seem to be a factor in our individual habits or behavior.schopenhauer1
    Well, since the genre is, in effect, a Dystopia-Dying Earth hybrid, "individual habits or behavior" are only, even primarily, symptoms of accelerating societal collapse which, of course, included labor-consumer collapse. The Children of Men is a speculative novel, not a psycho-sociological treatise. I applaud the author for dramatizing a shift in perspective from taken-for-granted self-centered immediacy to the loss of existential longtermism. As she said clarifying the central idea of the novel ...

    It was reasonable to struggle, to suffer, perhaps even to die, for a more just, a more compassionate society, but not in a world with no future where, all too soon, the very words 'justice', 'compassion', 'society’, 'struggle', 'evil', would be unheard echoes on an empty air.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070526121608/http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/15/bowman.htm
    — P.D. James, interview (2007)
  • The Evolution of Racism and Sexism as Terms & The Discussing the Consequences
    I prefer to talk descriptively.Judaka
    Well, I think "descriptive talk" like yours tends to confuse bigots with racists. I don't have that luxury, Judaka. As a Black American Sisyphus, it's a matter of daily survival for me to be anti-racist (not merely anti-bigot), that is, vigilant of and – in any way I/we can be – actively opposed to structural, systemic and social modes of racism (re: ).
  • The Evolution of Racism and Sexism as Terms & The Discussing the Consequences
    In the 1970's, I remember a Baptist preacher giving us a talk about race and the coming end of Aboriginal Australians. The line I recall was something like - 'It will be for the best at some time in the future when the Aboriginal person will be bred out and be no more.' This was Christian compassion and inclusiveness at its most perverse. Naturally, there was a preamble at the start about how the Good Reverend was not a racist..Tom Storm
    WTF :shade:
  • What is the "referent" for the term "noumenon"?
    What is the "referent" for the term "noumenon"?jancanc
    The epistemically unsurpassable limit ("boundary" Kant wrote, which Hegel disputed, IIRC) of any phenomenon as such.
  • The Evolution of Racism and Sexism as Terms & The Discussing the Consequences
    "Cui bono?"

    Racism (again for the slow fuckers way in the back) denotes color/ethnic prejudice plus POWER of a dominant community (color/ethnic in-group) OVER non-dominant communities (color/ethnic out-groups). Whether Hutus over Tutsis, Israeli Jews over Israeli Arabs, Hans over Uyghurs, Turks over Kurds, Kosovo Serbs over Kosovo Albanians, Russians over Chechens, Israeli Ashkenazim over Israeli Sephardim, American Whites over American Blacks Browns Yellows & Reds, etc, this description of racism obtains.
    180 Proof

    :mask:

    We can't read minds though, and we can't prove intent, ...Judaka
    "Intent" is irrelevant.

    ... and the pattern more than anything proves the oppression.
    Yes.

    For something to be considered racist, we need to interpret it to be harmful to the relevant demographic.
    Who is this "we" that "needs to interpret" what's "harmful"? "The relevant demographic", as you say, those harmed by "the pattern" of "oppression" recognize the selective mistreatment and violence independent of whether or not this "we" "interprets" it "to be considered racist". As I comprehend (& use) the term, racism is first and foremost an ideological-juridical-sociological concept, Judaka, about how groups and societies are legally-civilly regulated into hierarchies – castes – and policed (i.e. "order" maintained via phenotypical scapegoating ~Girard)

    In fact, you've argued an unwillingness to upend the legacies of racism to be racist. The inaction's harmfulness is what makes it racist, yes?
    No. "The legacies of racism" themselves are what's racist; "the inaction" is a constituent feature – indoctrinated social inertia – of these "legacies".

    Basically, we can't parse between what's racially motivated, and where some other motivation is at play, and we can't be expected to prove it, so long as we interpret harm, we'll describe it as racism, is that fair?
    This is completely connfused for reasons already given above and my previous posts. On historical-empirical and experiential grounds, I refuse to conflate and confuse personal anti-black prejudice (i.e. hatred, bigotry) with structural-systemic-social anti-black discrimination (i.e. racism) as your comments – assumptions – suggest that you do. Prejudice, like the poor, might always be with us, but social arrangements of racial castes (i.e. dominance hierarchies) are artifacts of political-economic ideologies of given times and places and, therefore, can be resisted ... until these pernicious social llarrangements are replaced. This is why prejudice (re: moral) and racism (re: political) are functionally different phenomena, though tangential, which are effectively opposed to the degree this functional difference remains intellectual explicit and thereby operational.

    I just want to know in a descriptive sense, how you'd avoid calling any harm to the relevant demographic as racist.
    Is a specific harm to "the relevant demographic" structural (re: exploitation)? systemic (re: discrimination)? or social (re: exclusionary)? If yes to any of these questions, then that specific harm is racist – and those functionaries who carry it out or who uncritically benefit directly (or indirectly) are themselves racist.
  • Questioning the Premise of Children of Men
    So in the end, if we think of future generations at all, it is just plain old selfish ...schopenhauer1
    The Iroquois word for this ahistorical statement, schop1, is BULLSHIT (same word, btw, in countless other languages over dozens of millennia of countless indigenous peoples):

    The Seventh Generation Principle is based on an ancient Haudenosaunee (Iroquois)* philosophy that the decisions we make today should result in a sustainable world seven generations into the future
    Excerpt from
    https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/seventh-generation-principle

    From an old thread "What is the goal of human beings, both individually and collectively in this age?", a post wherein I sketch out an ethical application of the Iroquois' (anthropological) principle ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/572299

    I suspect PD James took this 'inter-generational principal' seriously and her novel is a speculation that when it breakdowns for whatever reason (IIRC, she doesn't give one and neither does the film) the consequences will be dystopian (e.g. fascist, nihilistic). A cautionary tale about "just plain old selfish" unsustainable, philistine, presentism – a decadent civilization growing morbidly obese from cannibalizing its young (its future) – in the late 20th / early 21st century. In other words, like an old song says
    You ain't gonna miss your water until your well runs dry ...
  • Gnostic Christianity, the Grail Legend: What do the 'Secret' Traditions Represent?
    There's a book, Ars Vitae: The Fate of Inwardness and the Return of the Ancient Arts of Living, by Elizabeth Lasch-Quinn, which you may find interesting.Ciceronianus
    The description on Amazon.com reminds me of Pierre Hadot's Philosophy as a Way of Life. Thanks anyway. :up:
  • Questioning the Premise of Children of Men
    I first read the novel back in the early 90s and have seen the movie adaptation more than a few times; I have enjoyed both versions, though they diverge (mostly in narrative focus, IIRC), for the socio-political plausibility of the plot.

    The idea is that the belief in a continuing future society serves as a driving force to prevent society from falling into chaos.

    Is this assumption true, though?
    schopenhauer1
    It's quite plausible, especially in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary. AFAIK, there aren't any grounds to doubt it. :smirk:
  • The infinite in Hegel's philosophy
    So maybe the question is, if there is and can be something infinite, what would that be?Gregory
    The Real (e.g. Spinoza's substance, Democritus-Epicurus' void, Laozi's dao ...)
  • How to define 'reality'?
    I'd define reality as ..Cidat
    Here are some of my own attempts...180 Proof
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/749399
  • The Evolution of Racism and Sexism as Terms & The Discussing the Consequences
    :up:

    How can we identify the "theory & practice"? Why is something part of the "theory & practice" of racism?Judaka
    I don't know what you mean by "identify" when you suggest that nothing in the posts I've linked describe the "why & how of racism". Maybe I'm wrong but I suspect you didn't actually (or carefully) read what I'd written.

    I hope your answer can show why an interpretation of harm to the relevant demographic is inaccurate.
    I don't know what you mean by this sentence.
  • The Evolution of Racism and Sexism as Terms & The Discussing the Consequences
    1) Is it correct that sexism, racism and other similar terms, do not function descriptively, and are moral terms that we use if and when we perceive something to be harmful to the relevant demographic?Judaka
    No.

    2) To what extent do you agree that the terms are ambiguous in terms of "how", and "why" and in describing the harm they cause?
    Consider this post from an old thread "Racism or Prejudice? Is there a real difference?" in which I sketch the "why & how" of these "isms" ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/543213

    Also, more succinctly, from another thread "Reverse racism/sexism" ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/733571

    Lastly, from "Does systematic racism exist in the US?" ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/451840

    3) Is "ending' racism & sexism, for you, referring to the simplistic definition (prejudice) or the comprehensive one (societal realities)?
    "Social realities".
  • God & Christianity Aren’t Special
    I’m objecting to otherwise non-religious people who want it to engage in philosophical inquiry spending inordinate amount of time wallowing in — giving special attention to — mythical stories, just because they were raised with them.Mikie
    Care to post a link to a thread or post as an example to clarify what you mean?
  • Regarding Evangelization
    Proselytization is much more likely to come from the atheist side than from believers.T Clark
    :rofl: Amen.
  • God & Christianity Aren’t Special
    So you're just objecting to a dogmatic (or proselytizing) mindset?
  • God & Christianity Aren’t Special
    I agree. I rarely discuss "religions" or "God" or "theology" but instead focus on theism and other such purported 'conceptions of divinity' by investigating the claims which they entail as well as facts of the matter which they presuppose. The philosophical import of each 'conception of the divine' is metaphysical, that is, has implications for 'the concept of nature, or reality', and short of this, I think you're right, Mikie – the topic (re: god religion theology faith etc) is a waste of time. However, many could say the same about philosophy – that discussions about 'existing & being, good & truth, culture & nature' are also wastes of time – not much more than interminable circle-jerks of competing jargons. :smirk:

    The thing is, much of Western philosophy is based on esoteric or religious foundations.schopenhauer1
    More arboreal roots than architectural "foundations" – but yes, for the most part the Pre-Socratics strove to suppliment and/or substitute rational conceptions (Logos) of reality for religious / esoteric verse-fairytales (Mythos)
  • Vervaeke-Henriques 'Transcendent Naturalism'
    Certainty has gone and society seems atomized - I find this exciting, but many fear it.Tom Storm
    :up:

    I think the most important challenge we collectively face is dealing with the practical economic and ecological consequences of the 'continuous growth' paradigm, and the enormous problem of plutocracy and corrupted politics.Janus
    :100:

    Western culture is undergoing a crisis of meaningQuixodian
    :yawn: i.e. adolescence of the species ...