• Emergence
    All I'm doing is "a little speculating" about the prospects for a posthuman (even post-posthuman (e.g. nano sapien à la "the Monolith")) future. As for "theists", from what I can tell, uni, they don't speculate nearly as much or as often as they rationalize / fantasize (e.g. woo-of-the-gaps).
  • Dilbert sez: Stay Away from Blacks
    ↪NOS4A2 ...
    Your troll game is weak this morning.
    praxis
    :sweat:
  • Emergence
    I'm not as convinced as you seem to be of that one.universeness
    No, you're the one who keeps referring to "interstellar travel" and my position is that that prospect seems quite unlikely for the reasons I've already given.

    Do you assign 0 credence to a future ASI, which is organic and if so, why?
    By "organic" I understand carbon-based but not necessarly biological and have no idea about the specifications of ASI except that, if it does happen, it will emerge – post-Singularity – from developments by AGI (self-aware or not). I don't predict whether or not such a system will be instantiated in carbon-based materials.
  • Emergence
    I agree that any initial attempt to get to alpha centauri will not involve any 'orga.'
    But I don't think that will still be the case, on a timescale of thousands or tens of thousands of years from now.
    universeness
    Assuming the post-Singularity transcension (i.e. we may follow other ETI in this "solution to the Fermi Paradox"), I think there will not be any "orga" or biomorphic h. sapiens "thousands or tens of thousands of years from now" or any need by us for space travel long long before then. No "Star Trek" or "Stargate" fantasies, my friend. :smirk:
  • Spinoza’s Philosophy
    As I said, Copleston believes that Spinoza has turned God from a potential cause of the universe into an actual cause.Ali Hosein
    According to this reading, Fr. Copleston misunderstands Spinoza.

    A simple analogy: God/substance (independent idea) is like the ocean and the universe/infinite mode (dependent idea) is like an ocean wave; thus, "the universe" is not an effect of an ontologically separate "cause" in the manner of a "creation / cosmological" argument. As I've pointed out
    The "causal order" is a hierarchical sequence of dependent ideas whereas the "logical order" is the independent idea of the totality of ideas.180 Proof
    "Potential cause" and "actual cause" are Aristotlean notions which do not belong to Spinoza's philosophy, though they might seem relevant because Copleston misreads Spinoza in a Thomistic manner which implies a transcendent divinity (à la "first cause").
  • TPF Quote Cabinet
    Given that I was born a few months after Auschwitz was liberated, it is hardly surprising that I have a strong sense of the evil that humans – individually and collectively – do. My position is that of cautious and chastened optimism, a belief that, if we are ourselves well-treated by others, we will usually treat others reasonably well. — Raymond Tallis
  • What exemplifies Philosophy?
    I think of philosophy as a diversity of approaches for not taking anything for granted.Tom Storm
    :up:
  • Anybody read Jaworski
    For both far less expensive and less Aristotlean approaches to the 'mind-body pseudo-problem', I recommend any or all of the following books:

    The Ego Tunnel, Thomas Metzinger
    Being You, Anil Seth
    Looking for Spinoza, Antonio Damasio
  • Spinoza’s Philosophy
    In my reading of Spinoza, I was continually struck by how it opposed the views of Anselm.Paine
    :up:
  • Emergence
    I'm not so sure, perhaps 'orga' components will be as vital to the successful development of interstellar space, as any pure 'mecha.'universeness
    Meat baggage is extraneous payload which is too resources and energy demanding for any ASI-controlled space mission. Given that relativistic velocities will turn even the interstellar vacuum between the Oort Cloud and Alpha Centuri into an incinerating plasma of particulate-trace gases impacts, an "interstellar space craft" would have to sustain "orga" for millennia traveling at 'safe' sub-relativistic speeds. "Mecha" – TINY von Neumann-like Bracewell probes powered by antimatter or a micro-singularity – seems to me the way to go, especially for post-Singularity transcensionist posthumanity. :nerd:

    postscript: Unless, of course, we're talking about interstellar missions (such as asteroid O'Neill cylinder terreria generation ships), again traveling at even lower sub-relativistic velocities, arriving at their destination star systems after many millennia ... like the Star Trek TOS episode "For The World Is Hollow And I Touched The Sky", e8s3. :victory:
  • Spinoza’s Philosophy
    I think I found the paragraph you're talking about. Is it from the last paragraph of Chapter X?

    "Two points can profitably be noted at once. First, if we propose to start with the infinite divine substance, and if the affirmation of the existence of this substance is not to be regarded as an hypothesis, it has to be shown that the definition of the divine essence or substance involves its existence. In other words, Spinoza is committed to using the ontological argument in some form or other. Otherwise God would not be prior in the order of ideas. Secondly, if we propose to start with God and to proceed to finite things, assimilating causal dependence to logical dependence, we must rule out contingency in the universe. It does not follow, of course, that the finite mind is capable of deducing the existence of particular finite things. Nor did Spinoza think that it was. But if the causal dependence of all things on God is akin to logical dependence, there is no place for free creation, nor for contingency in the world of material things, nor for human freedom. Any contingency which there may seem to be is only apparent. And if we think that some of our actions are free, this is only because we are ignorant of their determining causes." [ ... ]
    Moliere
    This really helps me consider the OP question in its proper context of Copelston's interpretation of Spinoza rather than from reading Spinoza's texts themselves. :up:

    What is the difference between logical order and causal order?Ali Hosein
    Given the above passage from Fr. Copelston's A History of Philosophy, he seems to interpret Spinoza as arguing that the "causal order", as you put it, is dependent on the "logical order" which is independent of all – not caused by any – other ideas. The "causal order" is a hierarchical sequence of dependent ideas whereas the "logical order" is the independent idea of the totality of ideas.

    That's the most charitable surmise I can make of Copelston's interpretation of Spinoza. I think one has to study Spinoza directly in order to better comprehend the nuances and depths of his conceptions which are not nearly as Anselmian (i.e. of Catholic scholasticism) as Copelston's mention of "the ontological argument" might suggest.
  • The Philosopher will not find God
    In other words: "Stop picking on my Enformer-of-the gaps!" :lol:
  • Emergence
    I doubt it. Sending self-replicating AGI (an)droids would be far more energy and resources efficient.
  • Emergence
    'Stellar' denotes star-system, not just "star" (i.e. solar), so intra-stellar means (inhabiting) 'within a star-system' in contrast to inter-stellar meaning (traveling) 'between star-systems'. Maybe my usage is unorthodox but that's what I meant in my last post.

    As for "Dyson spheres", I don't think so. Artificial black holes would have far more energy density for far less energy expenditure (no planetary orbit-megaengineering). But what do I know compared to "the Monolith"? :sweat:
  • What exemplifies Philosophy?
    Do you think there are any contemporary heirs to the tradition of Spinoza?Pantagruel
    Gilles Deleuze et al ...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Spinozist_philosophers
    It may really be said: You are either a Spinozist or not a philosopher at all. — G.W.F. Hegel
    :fire:
  • Emergence
    interstellar speciesuniverseness
    I think the 'posthuman future' will be intrastellar-intraplanetary, not "interstellar"; and, unless we merge with it, the stars are only for ASI ... :nerd:
  • What exemplifies Philosophy?
    I think I misunderstood the question. Instead of "... (e.g. Frege)" I should have selected "Other" ...

    ... Ontological-Ethical (e.g. Epicurus, Spinoza).
  • Spinoza’s Philosophy
    Thanks. I'll consider that Copelston quote after I've had some sleep (it's just after 4am here).
  • Emergence
    Nevermind. :roll:

    The usual non sequiturs. :sweat:
  • Emergence
    You didn't answer my first question (you must have missed it). Again – in response to your comment about AI – only life can be aware? (How do you know this?) Even more succinctly:

    Which physical laws, AP, prevent us from building / growing a 'self-aware AI'?
  • Emergence
    Awareness is an attribute of life (living organisms).Alkis Piskas
    Only life can be aware? How do you know this?
  • Spinoza’s Philosophy
    Copelston's summary of Spinoza, like most other summaries in his A History of Philosophy, is both outdated and shoe-horned into a permissible, Jesuitical (Thomist) format. Besides, I haven't read Fr. Copelston since high school in the late 1970s so my guess at what @Ali Hosein's quotation means and how to answer his question are as good as yours.
  • External world: skepticism, non-skeptical realism, or idealism? Poll
    As I've mentioned, C.S. Peirce's objective idealism comes to mind.javra
    "Naive realism", however, isn't philosophical realism, which is what I read into the OP poll's "non-skeptical realism". Nonetheless, javra, I take your point.
  • Deep Songs
    "How can you explain ..."

    "Shadows in the Rain" (5:04)
    Zenyatta Mondatta, 1980
    The Police
  • What is needed to think philosophically?
    No
    e.g. Descartes, Hegel, Nietzsche et al.
  • Dilbert sez: Stay Away from Blacks
    The only way to banish it is to quit using it.NOS4A2
    Like Covid-19, "just stop testing" to get rid of it. :mask:
  • External world: skepticism, non-skeptical realism, or idealism? Poll
    ... again, the dichotomy between realism and idealism can we'll be viewed as false.javra
    Isn't antirealism a form of idealism? Are there other forms of idealism which are not antirealist?
  • Dilbert sez: Stay Away from Blacks
    Rather, claiming to not believe in racial taxonomies attempts (badly) to rationalize the status quo.praxis
    :up:

    :clap: :100:

    Yep, "white flight" is as baseball & apple pie as "In God We Trust" on Caesar's filthy lucre – old-time "heartland" stuff. I suspect Scott Adams would, for whatever reason, rather be "canceled" abruptly by mashing PC-zeitgeist buttons than just "fuck this job!" quit. Whatever. Never a "Dilbert" reader, like you, BC, I won't miss him, though I did enjoy (and still have a copy of) his first pandeism novel God's Debris.

    As members of the ruling majority (and historical oppressers of blacks), it's incumbent on whites to fix the relationship. Whites have [almost all] the goodies in this society.RogueAI
    As long as scapegoating nonwhite communities is less costly psychically and economically for white commmunities than "fixing the relationship" in America, except – often temporarily – tweaked at the margins, the racism-tolerant status quo will prevail.
  • Descartes' 'Ghost in the Machine' : To What Extent is it a 'Category Mistake' (Gilbert Ryle)?
    Cartesian dualism is more compatible with Christian theology (even Catholic trinitarianism) than Spinozist acosmism which is why Descartes' confusions are still so commonplace. (NB: It's always been fashionable to equate Spinozism with "pantheism" or "neutral monism" but, paying critical attention to the text of the Ethics, clearly neither follows; rather 'ontological holism + property dualism' is a much more consistent description, IMO.)