• Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    What happens in the dialogue between the human and the artificial [ ... ] — Jack Cummins
    2020 (re: 2013) - fiction

    2025 - fashion

    "Commerce is our goal here at Tyrell. "More human than human" is our motto" ~Eldon Tyrell (1982)

    :nerd:
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    Spiritualism, from the evidence, appears to be nothing more than delusion.

    People [like @Gnomon] who cite the “philosophical implications” of this stuff don’t understand [modern quantum physics] well enough to do so.     — Darkneos
    :up: :up:

    But my question is about the ethical implications of it [process philosophy]
    I don't think there are any "ethical implications" unique to either the naturalistic-chaotic (Dewey, Deleuze, Prigogine-Stengers) or the theistic-teleological (Whitehead, Hartshorne) versions of process philosophy.

    Rather, as far as I can make it out, "becoming" (dynamics) is broadly conceived of as a metaphysical constraint on "being" (stasis, reification) such that, metaethically, becoming moral (via inquiry, creativity, alterity) supercedes being moral (re: dogma, normativity, totality) – and moral in the "process" sense, I guess, means Good (i.e. always striving – learning how – to treat each other (re: community & the commons) in non-zerosum/non-egocentric (i.e. dialectically holistic) ways ~my terms, not theirs).
  • Could anyone have made a different choice in the past than the ones they made?
    Our choices can be voluntary but they are not free from determinants and constraints. — Truth Seeker
    ... and also not free of consequences. :100:
  • What are 'tautologies'?
    So, what are your thoughts about tautologies apart from the standard stuff said here? — Shawn
    From Witty & co, iirc, 'tautologies' are information-free, necessary repetitions (syntax) and 'logic', constituted by tautologies and rules of inference, is a consistency metric (systematicity) that is strictly applicable to grammatical (semantic) as well as mathematical (formal) expressions. Thus, I think of logic as sets of scaffoldings for excavating knowledge from nature and/or building (new) knowledge with nature – that is, making explicit maps of the terrain (i.e. possibilities) which are constitutive of the terrain (i.e. actuality (e.g. Witty's "totality of facts")). Nonetheless, imo even more fundamental than tautologies, contradictions are a priori modal constraints on ontology (i.e. the instantiation of logic, ergo mathematics, semiosis & pragmatics (Spinoza, A. Meinong, U. Eco, Q. Meillassoux ...)) which entail 'impossible worlds', or necessary non-actuality.
  • God changes
    I assume it is true ... — MoK
    Another hidden premise.

    God is by definition the creator.
    Ad hoc ...

    To make this explicit I can change P1 from "God exists", to "God exists and is the creator".
    Why not? – a third hidden premise. :roll:
  • Could anyone have made a different choice in the past than the ones they made?
    There's a possible world in which you did not make that OP. — Banno
    Under any nondeterminist interpretation, one 'could have chosen differently', or even might not have faced the choice at all. It also works under some fully deterministic interpretations like MWI where all possible choices are made in some world. — noAxioms
    The OP raises whether or not it's possible to 'change the past' of the actual world (i.e. retroactively making a choice different from the choice that already has been made); imo counterpart choices in 'parallel / possible worlds' are not relevant to the question at hand.

    So 180 Proof presumes the universe is determinate, then concludes that we cannot make choices — Banno
    My reply to the OP
    ↪180 Proof
    is consistent with compatibilism – not your strawman.

    ↪Truth Seeker
    :cool:
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    ↪Wayfarer
    Idk anything about the podcast.
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    ↪Wayfarer
    Two politically-savvy philosophers discussing "truth in an age of division" is quite relevant in this Trumpian moment, no?
  • Fascism in The US: Unlikely? Possible? Probable? How soon?
    United States of Kakistan
    7February25

    "Truth matters" ...
  • What Are You Watching Right Now?
    [deleted]
  • God changes
    P1) God exists
    D1) The act of creation is defined as an act of creating the creation from nothing
    P2) The creation exists
    C1) Therefore, there is a situation in which the creation does not exist (from D1 and P2)
    C2) Therefore, there is a situation in which God only exists (from P1 and C1)     — MoK
    Neither C1 nor C2 validly follow because P1 is not true and P2 contains a hidden premise ("There exists a creator").
  • Could anyone have made a different choice in the past than the ones they made?
    Could anyone have made a different choice in the past than the ones they made? — Truth Seeker
    Unless the universe (of determinant forces and constraints on one) changes too, I don't think so.
  • God changes
    P1) The act of creation is caused by an agent so-called God
    D1) This act is defined as an act of creation of something from nothing
    C1) Therefore, there is a state of affairs where there is nothing but God (from P1 and D1)     — MoK
    Unless what is meant here by "God" is synonymous with "nothing" ...

    First – (D1) "from nothing" contradicts (P1) "caused by an agent"; thus, (C1) is invalid.

    Second – (C1) also does not follow "from P1 and D1" whereby you conflate "nothing" (D1) with "nothing but God" which are not ontologically equivalent.

    (C1) is consistent with "... an act of creation of something from God" (D1 revised); however, this revision implies pan-en-theism (or even a-cosmism) instead of theism.
  • Ontology of Time
    Can you prove time exists? — Corvus
    Can you prove temperature exists? or color exists? or charge exists? etc ...
  • Thus Spoke Zarathustra
    ↪Joshs
    I read through much of Klossowski's Nietzsche book decades ago and didn't finish it. Nothing "new" for me then (after more than two decades of studying Nietzsche and his legion of 'interpreters').
  • Thus Spoke Zarathustra
    What do we make of Nietzsche today? Considered by some as the father of existentialism ... — Nemo2124
    I view Nietzsche as the father of postmodernism, and as a critic of existentialism. — Joshs
    Freddy seems to me 'an absurdist skeptic of European modernity' (both heir to Epicurus, Spinoza & Voltaire and predecessor of Zapffe, Camus & Rosset). "Some are born posthumously" ... yet, apparently, his protean works have been coopted – mis/appropriated :mask: – by both existentialists and postmodernists (as well as nazi / fascist propagandists). Just my two shekels.
  • Arguments for and against the identification of Jesus with God
    ↪Arcane Sandwich
    Afaik, philosophy of religion examines concepts of religion (re: worship) in contrast to theology which speculates on the nature of god (re: transcendence); where these inquiries possibly converge or overlap is on implications for human existence (e.g. values).
  • Arguments for and against the identification of Jesus with God
    ↪frank
    :up: :up:
  • Arguments for and against the identification of Jesus with God
    So, I take it that you accept the non-Christian argument, and you reject the Christian argument. And it seems that you deny the second premise, FTI2 — Arcane Sandwich
    Nope. I didn't make it past your "Is Jesus God?"
  • Arguments for and against the identification of Jesus with God
    Is Jesus God? — Arcane Sandwich
    Given that both "God" and "Jesus" are fictions, yes / no depending on each e.g. Biblical, Quranic or Vedic author (make-believer) I suppose.

    Can Santa Claus beat up Batman?
    — T Clark

    Nope, I think it's the other way around.
    Batman can quite clearly whoop Santa Claus' ass.     — Arcane Sandwich
    :strong: :lol:
  • Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    ↪Jack Cummins
    Shouldn't AGI participate in 'developing ethics' for itself (which humans might learn from) or do you mean, prior to AGI, humans should apply ethics to engineers / institutions 'developing AGI'? :chin:
  • Nietzsche's fundamental objection against Christianity (Socrates/plato)
    ↪DifferentiatingEgg
    You seem more pedantic than thoughtful. "Beware lest a statue slay you." :smirk:
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    Also none of this answers my questions.

    So I guess you [@Gnomon] don’t understand it either.     — Darkneos
    :smirk:

    ↪Darkneos
    :up:
    ↪Darkneos
    :up:

    I'm beginning to see why [process] philosophy never really took off. — Darkneos
    As I see it, this is why ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/963559
  • Nietzsche's fundamental objection against Christianity (Socrates/plato)
    Hegelian, something Nietzsche was not. The problem with 'Good and Evil' isn't only that it flips the valuation of world based 'Good and bad' on its head, and are thus world and life-denying, but also that it distorts them in the process... it moralises them. — ChatteringMonkey
    :up: :up:
  • Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    AI will always need human intervention in their operations, development and continual existence in the real world. — Corvus
    No doubt this is true of "AI" (such as LLMs, AlphaGo series neural nets, etc) but only will be the case if exponentially self-improving Artificial General Intelligence (A) cannot be engineered and implemented or (B) cannot 'escape' the lab (which will be far less likely when AGI is operational). Otherwise, to wit:
    You'll know AGI is here when the exercise of creating tasks that are easy for regular humans but hard for AI becomes simply impossible. — François Chollet, author of ARC-AGI and scientist in Google's artificial intelligence unit
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/openais-o3-isnt-agi-yet-but-it-just-did-something-no-other-ai-has-done/
  • Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    ↪Pierre-Normand
    Interesting. Thanks.
  • Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    ↪Jack Cummins
    Insofar as one wishes to avoid an anthropomorphic fallacy, I'm suggesting that "aspects of folk wisdom" are unwarranted and irrelevant to the topic of artificial intelligence.

    https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Anthropomorphism
  • Nietzsche's fundamental objection against Christianity (Socrates/plato)
    ↪BitconnectCarlos
    Nietsche did not exempt himself from the decadence of his era any more than Socrates denied he too was an ignorant Athenian.

    ↪DifferentiatingEgg
    :wink:
  • Deep Songs
    :death: :flower:
    I have had my fun
    If I never get well no more
    I have had my fun
    If I never get well no more
    Whoa, my health is fadin'
    Oh yes, I'm goin' down slow

    "Goin' Down Slow" (4:04)
    A-side single, 1961
    writer James B. Oden, 1942
    performer Howlin' Wolf
  • Nietzsche's fundamental objection against Christianity (Socrates/plato)
    ↪DifferentiatingEgg
    :up: :up:
  • Nietzsche's fundamental objection against Christianity (Socrates/plato)
    ↪Tom Storm
    "Freddy" makes the point (or suggestion) that eternity is here & now (concrete, embodied nature), therefore the only viable source of value (i.e. ^becoming, re/pro-creativity), rather than some imaginary – promised / make-believe – "hereafter' (abstract, dis-embodied spirit).

    ^self-overcoming
  • Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    How may this be established clearly and, is it fettered by the sentient aspects of human perception and thinking?. — Jack Cummins
    I don't understand your question.
  • Nietzsche's fundamental objection against Christianity (Socrates/plato)
    Yes, iirc, as N sees it Christianity, like Platonism, supremely(!) values some 'other world' (dis-embodied life, or "spirit") at the expense of absolutely(?) devaluing this world (embodied life), which he diagnoses as nihilism (—> cultural 'decay & decadence').
  • Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    ↪Corvus
    No doubt (western) civilization is already dependent on IT and smart automated systems; this dependence grows exponentially year to year (soon month to month). We've been living inside 'the internet' for (at least) thirty years, and, as I see it, the upside is that soon 'the oligarchs' (of tech, finance, energy, etc) will also be as captive of AGI, etc as they/we are now captives of ubiquitous computing – and thereby (western) civilization might be controlled (on macro-scales) more synergistically and sustainably than is humanly possible. Imo, worst case, smart machines can't 'enslave exploit and slaughter' any more than we talking primates have done to ourselves (& the nature world) the last ten or so millennia ...

    ↪Jack Cummins
    Why are you (especially with folk concepts like e.g "reflect" "protest" "cry out in pain" "its suffering") anthropomorphizing 'artificial intelligence'?
  • Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    ↪Corvus
    @Jack Cummins

    DON'T BELIEVE THE CLICK-BAIT HYPE. :sweat:
  • Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    From a 2023/4 thread Heading into darkness

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/849802

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/849880

    ancient forms of sun worship and fertility rites of paganism — Jack Cummins
    Both have always made more practical sense to me than any form of "sky daddy" (unseen total surveillance / gnostic panopticon ... aka "Big (Br)Other") worship.
  • US Election 2024 (All general discussion)
    United States of Kakistan
    31January25

    Re: Dunning-Kruger populism ...

    update:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/966525
  • What exactly is Process Philosophy?
    ... dualism on a runaway train. How does a system not subject to natural laws become a source of those laws? Unmoved movers? Something from nothing? All you are [@Gnomon is] doing is complicating things unnecessarily. — Harry Hindu
    :100:
  • Questioning the Idea and Assumptions of Artificial Intelligence and Practical Implications
    "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ..."
    ~Genesis 3:22, KJV

    James Lovelock, in his final writings spoke of the possiblity of a race of artificial intelligent beings and some remaining human beings overseeing the natural world. — Jack Cummins
    Yes, I imagine – 'a plausible' best case scenario – 22nd/23rd century* Earth as a global nature preserve with a much smaller (>1 billion) human population of 'conservationists, park rangers & eco-travelers' who are mostly settled in widely distributed (regional), AI-automated arcologies (and even space habitats e.g. asteroid terreria) in order to minimize our ecological footprint as much as possible.

    Would it be a matter of humans 'worshipping' the artificial intelligent beings as the superior 'overlords'?
    No more than "humans worshipping" the internet (e.g. social media, porn, gambling, MMORPGs). As an idolatrous species we don't even "worship" plumbing-sanitation, (atomic) clocks, electricity grids, phones, banking or other forms of (automated) infrastructure which dominate – make possible – modern life.

    IMO, as long as global civilization consists of scarcity-driven dominance heirarchies, "our overlords" will remain human oligarchs (scarcity brokers) 'controlling' human networks / bureaucracies (scarcity re-producers).

    It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God – but to [build it]. — Arthur C. Clarke
    However, I suspect that the accelerating development and distribution of systems of metacognitive automation (soon-to-be AI agents rather than just AI tools (e.g. LLMs)) will also automate all macro 'human controls' before the last of the (tech/finance) oligarchs can pull the proverbial plugs; ergo ...

    Who[What] would be servant and master? — Jack Cummins
    ... my guess (hope): "AGI" (post-scarcity automation sub-systems —> Kardashev Type 1*) will serve and "ASI" (post-terrestrial megaengineering systems —> Kardashev Type 2) will master, and thereby post-scarcity h. sapiens (micro-agents) will be AGI's guests, passengers, wards, patients & protectees ... like all other terrestrial flora and fauna.*

    Man is something that shall be overcome. Man is a rope, tied between beast and [the singularity] — a rope over an abyss. What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end. — Friedrich Nietzsche
    :fire:
  • Deep Songs

    "Devil in His Heart" (2:40)
    A-side single, 1962
    writer R. Drapkin
    performers The Donays

    https://youtu.be/fMwNBGM81Ps?si=0XfQ2cbe9acrXsI1

    You know that what you eat
    you are
    But what is sweet now
    turns so sour
    We all know Obla-Di-Bla-Da
    But can you show me
    where you are?     — George Harrison
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