:up:Physicalism provides a very good reason to think we have similar "inner-lives": we have a similar physical construction. — Relativist
:fire: Outstanding clarity! – even woo-addled idealists like @Gnomon and @Wayfarer should be able to grasp this and (if they're intellectually honest) reconsider their 'disembodied mind' dogma.The success of physics, in particular, provides good reason to believe that the observable universe is natural and operates in strict accordance with laws of nature. The question remains: does it account for the mind? At the onset of the investigation, I expect that it should - because we're part of the universe, and there's no evidence of anything else existing that is nonphysical or exempt from laws of nature.
Physicalist theory proposes models that account for the functional and behavioral aspects of mind (beliefs,learning, dispositions, the will, perceptions, "mental" causation...). — Relativist
:up: :up:I am not sure that it is possible for time to end. That is partly because I am inclined towards a cyclical picture of the universe and see the idea of 'nothingness' before or after the existence of life in the universe as rather dubious. — Jack Cummins
This is so because "consciousness" (qualia, intention, feeling, or other folk-percepts), in contrast to observation, on occasion might be a consequence but is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition (or operational requirement) of "scientific theorizing". And given the absence of a testable explanatory model of "consciousness", your criticism is empty.[N]aturalism and physicalism ignore the foundational, disclosive role of consciousness at the basis of scientific theorising. — Wayfarer
Not a "question of philosophy" but a Delphic reminder of practical living that one needs to understand one's limitations (in order to avoid hubris)[T]he real question of philosophy is ‘know thyself’’ — Wayfarer
Hobbes' "whole story " is epistemic (re: he's (mostly) a scientific materialist as per his De Corpore (chap. 6)), not metaphysical; rejection of Cartesian dualism (or immaterialism) =/= "the whole story" but, instead, it is how Hobbes finds a part of "the story" that includes – constitutes-informs – its scientific reading.Cite a single non-idealist philosopher who says 'the material world is the whole story'.
— 180 Proof
Thomas Hobbes (d.1679) – Argued that all phenomena, including thought, are explicable in terms of matter in motion. Leviathan opens with: “The universe is corporeal; all that is real is body.” — Wayfarer
... as opposed to "governed by" (e.g.)Julien Offray de La Mettrie (d. 1751) – In L’Homme Machine, he argues that humans are essentially sophisticated machines, governed entirely by physical processes.
Again, an epistemic paradigm rather than an ontological deduction. All d'Holbach is saying, it seems to me, is that whatever else (e.g. im-material) might be going on, we do not observe anything other than this nomological state of affairs. For him it is not "the whole story" but simply, pragmatically, materialism (of the 18th century) was the only self-consistent and testable "story" worth telling at the time.Baron d’Holbach (d. 1789) – In The System of Nature, he writes: “Man’s life is a line that nature commands him to describe upon the surface of the earth, without his ever being able to swerve from it... his ideas are the necessary effect of the impressions he receives.” That’s full-blown deterministic materialism.
Whether of not there are "spiritual phenomena" is irrelevant to Dr. Büchner who is NOT a metaphysical "the whole story" materialist but a scientific materialist.Ludwig Büchner (d.1899) – In Force and Matter, he argues that all spiritual phenomena are explicable through matter and force.
Invoking Occam's Razor, Smart's physicalism amounts to an explicit rejection of Cartesian dualism; for him physicalist explanations are not "the whole story" but suffice for understanding the physical world and its constituents such as functioning human brains. Btw, Smart's explicit metaphysics concerns perdurantism rather than ("reality is nothing but matter") materialism.J. J. C. Smart (d. 2012) – A champion of the mind-brain identity theory: mental states just are brain states.
Rejection of Cartesian dualism (or immaterialism) =/= "the whole story". Despite academic labels or publication titles, Armstrong is a physicalist-functionalist (and more broadly a scientific realist); in the context of his work on "mind", as I understand it, the use of "material" (re: materialism) is synonymous with embodied. AFAIK, Armstrong's "the whole story" metaphysics consists in 'only instantiated Platonic universals exist' (like e.g. laws of nature, embodied minds, truthmakers, etc).David Armstrong (d.2014) – Argued that mental states are physical states with a certain functional role.
Rejection of Cartesian dualism (or immaterialism) =/= "the whole story". Their eliminatism is an epistemology (i.e. scientific materialism), not a (nothing but matter) metaphysics.Paul Churchland (b. 1942) & Patricia Churchland (b. 1943) – Advocates of eliminative materialism, which holds that beliefs, desires, and intentions as ordinarily understood don’t really exist; they’re just folk-psychological illusions awaiting replacement by neuroscience.
A pragmatic form of the Churchlands' eliminativism – epistemic (i.e. scientific), not a (nothing but matter) metaphysics.Daniel Dennett (d. 2024) – A leading proponent of functionalist materialism, famously dismissive of qualia and any notion of non-physical mind. See: Consciousness Explained (1991).
Well, Wayf, the illusions (i.e. things not as they appear to be) do exist ... Read Rosenberg's book: it's a scientistic polemic (almost a parody) and not a well-argued thesis. :smirk:Alex Rosenberg (b. 1946) – Author of The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, where he asserts that physics is all there is, and that even meaning and morality are illusions.
But my thesis & blog treat Consciousness and Life as philosophical subjects, not scientific objects of study. — Gnomon
IME, philosophy that does not address (i.e. make explicit or clarify) how things are and instead (unsoundly) asserts how things might (or ought to) be "... explains nothing ... is cheap".... explains nothing. It opens up possibilities, but possibility is cheap. — Relativist
Such as the 'not real' (e.g. ideals, fictions, impossible worlds ...)transcend Reality — Gnomon
Who has ever claimed that it is? Cite a single non-idealist philosopher who says 'the material world is the whole story'.It’s not that the material world is unreal—it’s that it cannot be the whole story. — Wayfarer
:fire:What lies behind the traditional philosophical denial of common sense would seem to be the assumption that this world, not being perfect, cannot be the true world. The human desire for a transcendent reality, as opposed to this "mere shadow world" [ ... ] — Janus
Notice @Gnomon did not answer ...Suppose cosmologists develop a testable theory that accounts for the conditions at the big bang? Would you abandon your hypothesis, or revise it? — Relativist
:up:You sound confident about the independence of our world from any uncaused First Cause. — Gnomon
TBD (by physics, not metaphysics)..[W]hat is the "exact nature" of that prior state, ...
e.g. Black holes, cosmic inflation (i.e. accelerated expansion), quantum uncertainty (re: vacuum energy), Pauli Exclusion Principle ...... and what is the evidence for it?
Not yet.Have those cosmologists solved the "puzzle" of the hypothetical "prior state" with facts that us amateur philosophers don't know, ...
I prefer the informed, educated guesswork of cosmologists to almost all non-scientists' 'speculative wankery' (e.g. "unmoved mover" "first cause" "creator-programmer") à la woo-of-the-gaps. :mask:... or are they just guessing, ...?
I've no idea what this means, or what "that" refers to. Besides, "implies" doesn't do the work of causes ...That there are things which "be". That implies non-being — AmadeusD
:up: :up:What exists today is a consequence of what existed before. — Relativist
No I don't. What are (some) Intelligible grounds to believe that 'nonbeing became being'?Do you not find it mysterious how non-being eventually turned into being? — kindred
:up:Cosmology has not concluded our world is dependent on anything. — Relativist
On the contrary, as I've stated in many other posts, the purported BB (@ negative 13.81 billion years) is the earliest moment modern science can measure in the inflationary-entropic development of spacetime and (our) "inquiring Minds" are evolved ephemerae who are atavistically motivated to confabulate various self-comforting, narrative denials of the reality that "inquiring Minds" are only ephemerae (à la Buddha's anicca, Democritus' atomic swirl, Spinoza's finite modes ...)Apparently 180doesn't see any purpose to an evolving world that began with nothing (zero) but Potential (infinity) and has produced inquiring Minds that explore the mystery of Being. — Gnomon
The way I see it – if such models, for all their limitations, are both prevalent and more adaptive than the alternatives, then all the better for our reasoning capabilities and practices.So much thinking may become so concrete, as if models, including the mathematical and scientific ones, are seen as all encompassing. This may show a bias and diminishing of human reason — Jack Cummins
I think so.Is story and metaphor central to all understanding of 'truth'? — Jack Cummins
:up:The fact that you replied to me shows that the world is pretty much as it seems. — Banno
:death: :flower:We are all mortal beings as we pursue the philosophical questions. Everything in life is impermanent and all exploration occurs within the uncertainties of an unknown future. — Jack Cummins
Thunderbolt and lightning,
very, very frightening
me
(Galileo)
Galileo,
(Galileo)
Galileo,
Galileo Figaro,
magnifico ...
Refutes itself.There is no such thing as truth. — Kurt
It's not a matter of 'narrativity' or the absence of it but to use logos to transform mythos into narratives which frame - interpret as – explanable models (i.e. 'predictive' fact-patterns). This, I think, is what Thales and other Pre-Socratics (6th-4th century BCE) were up to.logos has been used to demythologize – but cannot fully eliminate – mythos — 180 Proof
Won't find any in foxholes either. :smirk:Idealists don't play in traffic? — RogueAI
Idle question(s). 'Your context' does not provide any grounds to doubt "what is really there" and, in such a context, you're "seeing" is indubitable (pace Zhuangzi ... Descartes ... Kant ...) so that it makes most sense for (sober, awake, pragmatic) you to act accordingly.what if what I am seeing is not what is really there, ...? — Kurt
Well, at least as far back as Thales, logos (re: "laws") has been used to demythologize – but cannot fully eliminate – mythos (re: "gods") in order to raise intelligible questions about 'reality or ourselves' which we do not know (yet) how to decisively answer. Suppositions and interpretations, not explanations, are the best, imho, (we) philosophers can do with nothing more than 'conceptual schema'.What do you think about the juxtaposition between ]logos and myth in the scheme of philosophical understanding? — Jack Cummins
:up: Same here. In my book this "excuse" amounts to appeal to ignorance (i.e. woo-of-the-gaps).I'm suspicious of using this explanatory gap as an excuse to believe in some sort of spiritualism. — Relativist
Well, not only doesn't that follow (category error), but all three concepts are mere abstractions; what makes any of them "woo woo nonsense" is attributing causal – physical – properties to any of them like "creator" "mover" ... "programmer". :eyes:If such a God is woo-woo nonsense, then so is Zero & Infinity. — Gnomon
I agree. Idealism, antirealism, immaterialism ... quantum woo-woo, etc are much poorer alternatives. :up:I embrace physicalism because (AFAIK) it's the best general answer to the nature of reality. I don't have some undying faith in it, and I know it has its limitations. But I treat it as the premise when analyzing everything in the world. This seems the most pragmatic approach — Relativist
The late, great Anthropocene. :monkey:Behold, the enemy! — unenlightened
Yes.I am thinking that your issues may come down to diabetes, which is so prevalent. — Jack Cummins
needing compassionembodied beings
:100:[W]e're not in a position to know whether people care about others or not. We can only judge by actions, not by sentiment or professed values. What do people actually do? — Tom Storm
Nonsense. "Nothing" necessarily cannot "exist".I go with the theory that once upon a time, nothing existed. Then all of a sudden, something came into existence. — alleybear
... except, sir, you don't seem to grasp that "logical necessity", as you say, does not scientifically have anything to do with dynamics in or the development of the physical world.[A]ll I know about this logical necessity ... — Gnomon
The BBT is a model of physical processes; (the) "mathematical" is merely abstract and, therefore, cannot "evolve".... how we, and our world, evolved from mathematical Big Bang Singularity
Yes, decades ago.Are you familiar with D M Armstrong? — Wayfarer
Even if this 'claim' is true – of course there's no evidence for it – so what? Physics explains many fundamental aspects of the physical world and not (yet) others; "human existence" is tangentally something else entirely outside modern physics' remit. Why do you persist on blaming physics for not doing something that physicists don't use it for? Re: materialism – You're (still) shadowboxing with a burning strawman, Wayf.[P]hysics is based on a useful abstraction, which has yielded enormous physical powers, but at the expense of excluding fundamental aspects of human existence. — Wayfarer
I'm currently in a rehabilitation facility (for a couple of more months) with other post-op amputees and variously disabled elders where I'm confronted especially each night by sounds of acute pains (and prolonged indignities due to staffing shortage) which, even as a recovering patient/resident in this place, I'm not prepared to ignore or disregard. Is this "compassion" (now thwarted by own incapacity)?... thinking about the nature of compassion. — Jack Cummins
No. The latter is active and former passive.Does Empathy Always Lead to Sympathy?
And what about, for instance, the atrocities and abuses countless generations of folks long before this era have inflicted on one another as if they were "machine-like robots" completely devoid of "empathy" and "sympathy"? The modern world, global civilization, was not built or maintained by "compassion", mate – current technocapitalism, imo, doesn't make today's "compassion" problem any more acute and dire than it was back when the Upanishads were being written.I see this question as particularly significant as so much is becoming 'robotic' and machine-based?
No, as pointed out above.Is it leading to moral indifference and based on the philosophy of the objective idea of the importance of 'emotional detachment as an ethical ideal?
They are (like) moods; the relevant capability, or trait, is compassion – motivation stronger than sympathy to actually help alleviate another person's suffering – actually helping one another.What do you think about the ideas of sympathy, empathy and its relevance for life?.
Just as there is no ocean "outside of" ocean-waves, there is no "world outside ourselves" because we – our minds – are aspects of the world itself rather than a separate Cartesian substance. Maybe it's how you've expressed your point, T Clark, that doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, I'll go on: my point – maybe not quite the OP's – is not that "logic is inherent in existence" but, parsimoniously, that logic is existence (i.e. 'universes' themselves are logico-computable processes ~Spinoza ... Deutsch, Wolfram, Tegmark) about / from which we (can) derive abbreviated syntaxes & formulae (which are, in effect, maps yet often mistaken for terrain (e.g. Plato-Aristotle, Kant-Husserl, Russell-Carnap)). :chin:Logic is not inherent in existence itself, whatever that means. To the extent it is a discovery, it is a discovery about the way our minds work, not about anything in the world outside ourselves. — T Clark
:fire:So - magical? Well, I think not, but something even greater in some respects
— Wayfarer
This is what I see as an enormous problem in your position. It depends on uncritically accepting the existence of magic (or "something even greater"). I've seen no justification for this other than arguments from authority (the ancients had this view) and arguments from ignorance (physicalism's explanatory gap). — Relativist
