Ok, we can agree on that much that wanting others to suffer is morally wrong.

Do you acknowledge that transgender folk alleviate their own suffering by their actions? — Cheshire

There is no evidence that gender reassignment improves mental health. One study claimed that in 2020 but they have to recant their findings due to statistical errors.

I can cite several recent cases of post op trans people committing suicide.

The surgery and hormones cause suffering and shorten life spans.

Yeah, but who cares what you think? You've already demanded that this discussion be scientific. You've got your anecdotes and I've got mine, but that's not science. It's just blather. — Hanover

I was going to use this response elsewhere. However: Transgenderism is self diagnosis and the solutions involve self diagnosis.

I am speculating about the causes of my mental health problems. When causes are unknown you can look to plausible causes found in peoples lives and environments and there are plenty of those.

The reassignment interventions for trans identified people are amongst the most invasive and irreversible with many complications. That is an extreme response to a condition which is self diagnosed and has no known causes.

The Jazz Jennings case presents an interesting paradox. She was affirmed as trans from an early age and put on puberty blockers. But because the blockers halted her puberty she ended up with an underdeveloped penis that could not be turned into a neo/pseudo vagina by the normal procedures so she ended up having several surgeries with painful complications.

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/a30631270/jazz-jennings-surgery-complications/

"Doctors had to use a new technique because she started using hormones at such a young age. Since she hadn’t developed enough tissue to construct a vagina, Jazz's doctors used tissue from her stomach lining."

A part from that she has exhibited mental health problems despite affirmation from an early and under a hypnotherapy expressed a concern that her family would have rejected her if she had been gay.

I'm saying girls with gender dysphoria are physically different enough from other girls that it's measurable. — Benkei

Based on a study that has not being replicated involving 21 gender dysphoric girls.

There are over 33,000 people on GoFundMe raising funds for top surgery. https://uk.gofundme.com/f/gendercare-fees
How many have these people have participated in this kind of test to assess whether they have "masculine" brain activation.

Psychology and neuroscience has had a replicability crisis where a large percentage of studies were unable to be replicated so it is by no means authoritative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

I have a degree in psychology and you learn that you have to test every study for confounding factors and also sample size is important the smaller the sample size the weaker the findings. On the other hand a qualitative not quantitative study of one person can be valid because of it's depths.

One thing I would have done on a study like you cited is look for differences between non trans identifying gender non conforming women, lesbians and gender dysphoric females. Differences in sexuality may also correlate to brain differences.

Here's some research you should read,

https://pure.knaw.nl/ws/files/2203335/Burke2016JPsychiatNeurosci.pdf — Benkei

Are you saying that if someone performs like the average male on a mental rotation task that means they are male or have become male after testosterone injections?

"Sex Differences in Mental Rotation Ability Are a Consequence of Procedure and Artificiality of Stimuli"

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40806-017-0120-x

For every study you can find a counter study.

According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria#Causes

"The specific causes of gender dysphoria remain unknown, and treatments targeting the etiology or pathogenesis of gender dysphoria do not exist"

This means the causes could be societal, familial and mental illness and not brain differences or being trapped in the wrong body.

They say prevention is better than cure.

As someone with long term mental health problems I have always believed my problems have been caused by family and society, religion etc. But I have been on medication for ages but this benefits the big pharmaceuticals and it and a lot of therapies blame the individual or his or her brain and not society and family.
So what is being medicalised is dysfunction and the dysfunction is not going away but being multiplied. But the "cures" are highly profitable and do not require anyone else or society to change.

I know you said you're gay, have you ever had gender dysphoria? — frank

No

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Detransition:

"Direct, formal research of detransition is lacking. Professional interest in the phenomenon has been met with contention."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition

From one of those studies you cited :

"Individuals who would likely be considered transgender today are evident throughout the historical record.1 "

In the past you couldn't be transgender in the modern sense because you could not have your breasts removed or penis inverted or go on hormones, all you could do is cross dress and perform roles attributed to the opposite sex.

This is conflating gender non conformity with transsexuality. A woman is not someone who wears dresses or works as a nurse, she has ovaries, a womb, periods, menopause etc none of these things are available to the opposite sex.

You don't really know what that suffering is like — Cheshire

Lots of people suffer including myself that does not justify claiming you are the opposite sex or having multiple invasive surgeries and a life time on hormones and other meds.

Why is the only route to eliminating suffering, body modification and making people pretend you are the opposite sex, allowing men to compete against women in sports when they have obvious biological advances. Why the need to groom other people and society because of ones own gender crisis? It is all unreasonable solutions.

How do explain the lack of a threat it poses to other people? No one is trying to change your gender against your will I hope. — Cheshire

I have just responded to your previous post.

It does post a threat to other people and vulnerable people. How many harms do you want me to list?

Reddit detrans now has 20,000 + members https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

Here people talk about regretting transitioning, being encouraged or groomed to transition. Trying to return their normal voice and appearance.

It is not them and us anyone can fall victim to trans ideology and detransitioners are those kind of people.

I think it's related to the degree of suffering that is caused by the mismatch and the seriousness in regards to what people will do to over come it; relative to the almost non-existent burden it places on society. — Cheshire

" relative to the almost non-existent burden it places on society"

I just started this whole thread raising a wide range of concerns that I have just restated in my latest post concerning the reasons it does affect society. I assume you didn't read any of the thread.

There is the harmful treatments that are classed as trans health care which have many deleterious effects on health such as wrong sex hormones leading to conditions like osteoporosis, arthritis, and increased risk of heart attack etc.

Mastectomies (now called top surgery) being irreversible and carrying the risk of future chronic pain.

Gender non conforming and gay children being groomed to believe they are trans. Women being sexually assaulted by female identifying males in spaces supposed to be for women alony for their safety.

Not accepting it means my comfort level with your internal state is more important than the suffering caused by it. Which is selfish to the point of evil. — Cheshire

I don't know what you mean. Someone believing they are born in the wrong body is having their suffering caused by a delusion and it is possible to make someone think they were born in the wrong body by lying and endorsing this ideology rather than telling them no it is not possible.

If someone is suffering mentally I would advocate therapy and psychiatric medication not body mutilation. I have posted evidence here that these treatments afore mentioned don't decrease gender dysphoria suicidality etc. But pretending to be the opposite sex is at others peoples expense people get engaged in a societal lie that they don't know what the original sex of a person was but are changing their language and society to pander.

I don't see what I gain as a cis person by spreading the message that trans folk are "really" their original gender beside ostracizing them. — BitconnectCarlos

I have raised a range concerns about gender ideology. Mutilating peoples bodies, undermining peoples health with wrong sex hormones, undermining women's rights and safety, converting gay and gender nonconforming children to trans.

There is no such thing as a cis person.

Not telling the truth about peoples innate biological sex is an unnecessary lie and creates a pervasive delusion. Facts should not be suppressed to spare peoples feelings.

Gender critical conversation like mine is a minority conversation, gender ideology and trans ideology is pushed at us left right and centre and is well funded infiltrating public schools, big business, twitter, reddit and so on. The world revolves around it now, making people declare their pronouns and respect hundreds of fantasy gender identities, censoring people, calling the police and firing people from jobs.

I don't know what planet some of you people have been on recently.

This is why I started the thread asking is this forum Woke and Politically correct.

If so , would you concede that there are intermediate psychological genders that the male/ female binary doesn’t capture? — Joshs

It is a spectrum of behaviour not a spectrum of gender. You don't change sex or gender by just being a man who is not violent

Quotes by prominent trans women academics and authors

“Getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is.” Andrea Long Chu

"The asshole [is] a universal vagina through which femaleness can always be accessed" Andrea Long Chu

"While I never really believed the cliché about women being good for only one thing, that sentiment kept creeping into my fantasies.

"It’s called forced feminization... transforming the loss of male privilege into the best f*ck ever." Julia Serano

"I think there are a lot of gay men out there who are gay men as a consolation prize because they couldn’t be women. That was certainly true of me." Juno Dawson (Formerly James Dawson)

"Transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at women’s jails than other prisoners are, official figures show.

Male prisoners who were transferred to women’s jails during gender reassignment and women inmates who are transitioning committed seven of the 124 sex attacks recorded between 2010 and 2018. They occurred at HMP Low Newton in Co Durham, Foston Hall in Derbyshire, Peterborough, Bronzefield in Middlesex and New Hall, West Yorkshire."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dangerous-denial-of-sex-11581638089

Here's another website Kenosha might want to report to the police.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

"These MOJ statistics show that transgender women exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality. We conclude that transwomen in prison exhibit a propensity to sexual crime that matches their birth sex and not their gender identity. This is relevant and necessary information when making legislation and policies designed to keep women safe."

https://fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

"(...)So in 2017 we published our own new research showing that half of all known transgender prisoners require max security or specialist sex offender prisons. Despite numerous attempts by others to discredit our work the MOJ has now confirmed the accuracy of our findings. Official figures released by the MOJ in 2018 show that half of all known transgender prisoners counted in April 2017 had at least one previous conviction for sex offences."

"The public has been shocked to learn that since 2016 male prisoners in the UK have been allowed to ask to be transferred to a women’s prison. All they need to do is self-identify as a woman. Legal or medical transition is not required for permission to transfer meaning that legally-male prisoners complete with a penis are currently living alongside women in prison."

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

"Well this person committed a crime while trans," and "That person got an unfair advantage while trans." So what? What does that have to do with whether the majority of trans people should be allowed to live their lives? — Kenosha Kid

No one is making this argument.

The concern with trans women committing crime at the same rates as biological men is a concern for the safety of vulnerable women and children. There are lots of other arguments being made against trans ideology such as opposition to telling gay children they are trans and grooming vulnerable children and putting people on dangerous chemicals and giving people surgery that can cause horrible side effects including gangrene, heart attacks and osteoporosis.


"NHS gender clinic ‘running conversion therapy for gay children’"

https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/21/tavistock-centre-nhs-gender-clinic-running-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-14804260/

There are varieties beyond the typical testes and penis or ovaries and vagina. — Michael

These are birth defects though. Being born with an extra finger doesn't make you a new breed of human or being born without a womb this is not viable sexual variation that aids reproductive success.

When a transgender man says "I am a man" he isn't saying "I have XY chromsomes" or "I have a naturally developed penis and testes." — Michael

It is not clear what they are saying because the ideology or identity isn't coherent. One I person I spoke said sex or gender is a social construct so I said if sex roles'd people referring to themselves as real women and even some say biological women.

Well if you go on trans subreddits you can see that a lot of them talk about enjoying how they look in a dress and make up. A lot of people post photos for affirmation to see whether they pass (these are heavily moderated affirmation only spaces.) How much of being a woman is based on how you look? That is reinforcing the prejudice against gender non conformity.

Holy fuck, I totally misread this. What kind of psycho starts a website listing crimes by a particular demographic? — Kenosha Kid

People concerned about women's rights and their safety in prison.

What is being highlighted is dangerous predatory offenders allowed to identify as female based on word of mouth.

"The Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) provides the best measure of victimisation and estimated that for the year ending March 2020 there were 773,000 adults aged 16 to 74 years who were victims of sexual assault (including attempts) in the last year, with almost four times as many female victims (618,000) as male victims (155,000)."

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/sexualoffencesinenglandandwalesoverview/march2020

The unlikelihood of a man being sexual assaulted by a trans man is the reason why people are mainly concerned about trans women in the case of self ID.

You were speculating about why a lot of concerns focus around trans women and I have given reasons. The only way I have heard of men a being affected by trans men is when they want a gay relationship with them. As a gay person I don't want to have sex with a man with a vagina or prosthetic penis,

Transphobic comments don't seem qualitatively better than misogynistic or homophobic ones, — Kenosha Kid

What are you classifying as transphobic comments?

If you look at this website of crimes committed by trans identified people in the UK it is all men.

https://transcrimeuk.com/

The rate of female sex criminals has risen sharply and this is because sex offenders who are male identify as women and the courts legally have to refer to them as such. Put in terms of criminality trans women have the same pattern of criminality and behavioural problems as biological males.

This is why women are concerned about their safety. A male athlete who changes gender will have the advantage of being stronger and faster than a female and now in some cases are thrashing them in sporting events. Fallion Fox born male broke the skull of two female competitors and only lost one fight. So can you clarify what the transphobia is in these concerns?

May be you think that it is transphobic to simply have a private belief that sex is immutable and binary?

I grew up with three sisters (2 brothers) and a mother and my idea of who is female is subjective?

This is brainwashing.

Men cannot give birth or have periods or have vagina or menopause. Lying is not philosophy.

Philosophy is not PC or Woke.

The credibility of a view is not affected by who endorses it - so the fact many sexists endorse subjectivism about sex isn't, in itself, evidence that the view is implausible. — Bartricks

Subjectivism is fundamental to trans ideology. It is about feelings over biology. These feelings are deeply imbedded with sex stereotypes.

I find it hard to believe that 99.9% of people are unable to differentiate between a male and female. That by identifying a female I am being subjective, biased and undergoing a hallucinations. Denying the ability to differentiate between men and women is surely and illness is surely disorder like prosopagnosia?

The inability to remember peoples faces is prosopagnosia. But the inability to classify someone's (mental) gender is transphobia.

Yes.

If you think a penis can be turned into a functioning vagina I would question your sanity. It is a wound that will keep on trying to heal if you don't use a dilator this is probably why 70-90% of trans women keep their penises. Blaire White has kept hers and has used this description of the neo vagina.

Since I assume you don't live with the delusion that you will effectively scold the trans community into submission to your will, can you at least acknowledge their existence is not being made more HEALTHY by your and your ilk's berating — Hanover

I do not think trans people exist. No one can change sex. I have posted a video of a young man on here who had his penis destroyed to due to gender ideology. I have never met him or had any influence on him.
The number of detransitioners is far greater than trans activist propaganda will have you believe. Encouraging children to deny their biological sex is gross child abuse and gender "reassignment surgeries are mutilation. There is nothing healthy, progressive or truthful about this movement.

It has relied on huge amount of deception, lies censorship, cancel culture, suppressing research etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/25/bath-spa-university-transgender-gender-reassignment-reversal-research

This is also anecdotal. Incidentally, are you sure you really mean Lauren Laverne? — InPitzotl

I meant Laverne Cox. Yikes.

. But note that you're immediately jumping to averages, — InPitzotl

How did humans create 7 billion of themselves? It is not an average it is a huge majority of humans displaying sexual dimorphism. Puberty blockers , hormones and genitals surgeries lead to the evolutionary dead end of infertility.

Unlike some species humans cannot spontaneously change sex and remain fertile.

What I find problematic is the desire that everyone pretends that a male is a female (or vice versa) and even actually believes they have become a female/male because of self identity.

The equivalent is everyone having to believe I am a genius because I claim I am one. I find this psychologically damaging. Some trans people (maybe most?) will acknowledge they have not changed sex but are living as the sex they feel comfortable with. They will accept claims such as "Trans women are men"

For myself as a gay male I do not need societies affirmation or approval to know what I am. I grew up with religious homophobia and that is probably the main reason I left Christianity. But now society has to change to pander to everyone's self identity and assimilate everyone else's personal beliefs..

This an accurate satire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ_FRsKAJqk

35 thousand women trying to raise funds for mastectomies on "Just giving" and "Go fund me"

Leave them be. — frank

Leave the wealthy surgeons to chop of healthy breasts and penises to fund their children's college education? This is a societal issue

In the definitive sense:
anecdotal
1. (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research — InPitzotl

Well you have just found a problem with the notion of science. In what sense is any observation not a personal account?

An anecdote is usually when some uses one experience to generalise. I am not using ONE experience I am using a lifetime of being around men an women.

But there is science as well. For example men are taller on average than woman. Lauren Laverne identifies as female and is much taller than Chase Strangio who identifies as male. The failure to "pass" is due to people innate ability to recognise sex differences.

If a trans person is happy with the results, it isn't harm. — Hanover

But there is little evidence that reassignment surgery causes happiness. It does not end dysphoria. But happiness is not evidence of goodness. There were happy Nazi's. This is emotional blackmail writ large where someone has something happen due to threats of self harm,.

Okay, but that does not entail that science has to rely on anecdotes, — InPitzotl

Being able to identify a male form a female is not an anecdote and if you claim so you are just outright lying about reality. It is insulting to men and women to deny the reality of sexual dimorphism to humour people with dysphoria or gender saboteurs. There is a huge literature on male and female bodies. reproduction, vaginas penises, sperm etc this is not like someone mistaking a bush for a cow in the middle of the night.

And not clever enough to phrase the problem in a considered, respectful way. — Banno

I don't respect misogyny, child abuse and gay erasure. I am not going to pretend people can change sex to spare someone's feelings just Like I am not going top pretend the moon is made of cheese. I am not going to endorse penis and vagina mutilation. You can do it and be on the wrong side of history whatever...

you seem to be saying that position B is essentially sexist. Would that be correct? — Bartricks

Yes.

The idea that you can become the opposite sex ignores biological reality and embodiment. Women are the main losers because men who have dominated women for millennia can now claim to be women by wearing a dress and lipstick and undermine them and win at their sports and get women of the year awards and invade spaces designed for the protection of women against male violence.

Being a woman is then reduced to the superficial not biological reality.

You then use as evidence that most trans are gay t — Hanover

Most trans men are gay and most trans women are autogynephilic The problem is the rejection of ones sex due to internalised homophobia..

Can you give me one HEALTHY reason for rejecting ones biological sex?

What moral principle is violated by allowing these decisions to be made by adults without your two cents — Hanover

I think that cosmetic surgery which is self harm in many cases is a concern because it is self harm. I am not pro suicide or pro self harm.

This young man now has to live the rest of his life without a penis because some generous surgeon cut it off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWv7RNlVjaU&t=312s

A moral principle based on self indulgence (that is how it is nowadays) is narcissism and solipsism writ large and does not promote anyone's welfare other than ones own self ID. It is not a foundation for community/society.

Or if you prefer, suck it up and mind your own business. — Banno

Undermining women's rights, women's sports, gay erasure and genital mutilation, medication of children is everyone's business I am not selfish enough to think otherwise.

That doesn't sound very scientific to me. Using your eyes and ears to tell you how reality works is what nearly everyone does — InPitzotl

Science has to assume that some human faculties are accurate., Are you seriously claiming you cannot identify who is male and female. The start of categorisation of entities is based on the reliability of the human senses.

Science shows and every day experience that only a man and woman can produce a children.

They have yet to create the insane dystopia of trying to give a woman a penis implant and implant a womb in a man. But by Jebus they are trying hard.

I've worked with trans children — Banno

What are trans children?

Most children with gender dysphoria are gay and without intervention resolve their identity issues. Affirmation and puberty blockers etc prolong gender dysphoria.

I am lucky I am a gay man who only wanted to hang around with girls as a young child. I liked hanging around with girls without feeling there was anything wrong with this. I enjoyed being around the opposite sex with no shame and no need to not identify as male. I was diagnosed as autistic in my 40's which explains my non conformity but also 2 trans identified people I know I met through autism services and the other 2 trans people I know exhibited autistic traits.